In Moscow, killed the leader of the red skinhead

[National_Nord]

In Moscow, killed the leader of the red skinhead

Evening of November 16 in Moscow happened contract killing. In those killed was identified by one of the informal leaders of Russian anti-fascists Ivan Khutorskoi. He became the latest victim of an undeclared war between the ultra and ultra-right radicals, war, which has recently increased noticeably.

Ivan Khutorskoi was known to friends and enemies by the nickname Ivan Kostolom. Ominous nickname he got a passion sambo. In his 26 years he was one of the veterans antifascist movement. In an obituary published by his associates in the LJ, states that Khutorskoi stood at the origins of Russia's movement of red and anarchist skinhead, that is, those skinheads who hold radical left beliefs and shared anti-fascist stance. Also mentioned that Khutorskoi was related to the Sharpe-grouping of Moscow Trojan Skinheads, but his friends believe that they were only a business relationship. The fact that Sharp (from SHARP - Skinheads Against Racial Prejudices) - skinheads who oppose discrimination based on race, have no clear political direction, whereas Khutorskoi belong to the leftist activists.

Judging from the scraps of information from the biography of the deceased, he had a direct bearing on the actions of direct action, ie, street fights with neo-Nazis.

http://lenta.ru/articles/2009/11/18/antif/

In Russia, even the simple Russian people do not like anti-fascists and red. :D

P.S.Kostolom - Mean Machine

[Fortis in Arduis]

These reds and anti-fascists are violent, anti-democratic, and actually create racial tension.

Multi-racial societies will only be pleasant and harmonious, if at all, when they have not been socially engineered to be so.

[Karl]

[B]

In Russia, even the simple Russian people do not like anti-fascists and red. :D



I wish that the situation here would be the same. Russians in Estonia are ruining walls with "ANTIFA" graffiti. They're the most common in Russian areas of Tallinn and central Tallinn(next to a Russian area of Tallinn). The funny thing is... There are no fascist movements in Estonia.

There seems to be a large cultural cap between the Russians of Russia and between Russian immigrants of Estonia.(If it is true that even the simple Russian in Russia doesn't like ANTIFAs and the reds/commies) The Russians here are a bunch of commie bastards, the ANTIFA graffiti everywhere just proves my claim.

[Svarog]

I wish that the situation here would be the same. Russians in Estonia are ruining walls with "ANTIFA" graffiti. They're the most common in Russian areas of Tallinn and central Tallinn(next to a Russian area of Tallinn). The funny thing is... There are no fascist movements in Estonia.

It's quite normal, all the Hungarians here are Anti-Fas while they're really fascists in their own way, it's the 'minority' or 'immigrant' syndrome

[Poltergeist]

It's quite normal, all the Hungarians here are Anti-Fas while they're really fascists in their own way, it's the 'minority' or 'immigrant' syndrome

Right. A very interesting phenomenon. What's "right-wing" in one country (or among one nation), is "left-wing" in another country.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Right. A very interesting phenomenon. What's "right-wing" in one country (or among one nation), is "left-wing" in another country.

The ideologies are not the same, just the ethnicity.

The starkest contrast available to us in the western world is the experience of the jews, who when the have a majority are the most 'intolerant', nationalist, and patriotic country in 'the west' as discussed here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10533

And as minorities in western countries are the biggist advocates of 'tolerance' and the most anti-nationalist and anti-patriotic of all groups, for example as seen here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10809


What this all shows is that it impossible to have any sort of 'diverse' ethnic groups within the same political jurisdiction without the 'minority' attempting to subvert the needs of the majority to serve their own ends.

[Absinthe]

(On a side note) - don't you just hate online translators? :p

[Poltergeist]

Online translation is gay.

[Fortis in Arduis]

I wish that the situation here would be the same. Russians in Estonia are ruining walls with "ANTIFA" graffiti. They're the most common in Russian areas of Tallinn and central Tallinn(next to a Russian area of Tallinn). The funny thing is... There are no fascist movements in Estonia.

There seems to be a large cultural cap between the Russians of Russia and between Russian immigrants of Estonia.(If it is true that even the simple Russian in Russia doesn't like ANTIFAs and the reds/commies) The Russians here are a bunch of commie bastards, the ANTIFA graffiti everywhere just proves my claim.

The sad thing is, that they are probably the poorer ones put there by the Russian state and migrational pressures. There are many parallels all over this sorry planet.

Immigration and often migration are a product of social injustice, instability and political games.

My maternal grandparents migrated to London because of political and economic pressures. My maternal family is scattered and I do not even know where, and the cultural and linguistic links are entirely lost. In London, my grandmother's last rites were read in German, a language that me, my mother and my uncle do not even understand.

[Eldritch]

Heavily off-topic, but wasn't there also another political murder in Moscow recently -- an Orthodox priest who had spoken out about the mistreatment of women in Muslim countries?

[Sventovit]

There seems to be a large cultural cap between the Russians of Russia and between Russian immigrants of Estonia.(

You really don't know the meaning of the word "immigrant", do you?

[Sventovit]

The sad thing is, that they are probably the poorer ones put there by the Russian state and migrational pressures.

In a sense you're right, but more than anything, they were put there by Russian altruism and goodwill. During the Soviet Union, "brotherhood of the nations" was the fad du jour. Even shortly after the Great Patriotic War, where close to 20 million ethnic Russians died, the Soviets kept pouring billions of roubles into the bottomless hole that was the modern Baltic republics, essentially creating their entire infrastructure and industry out of nothing, and this process continued until the 1980s. The Russian people went along with this because they are by nature generous and altruistic, and of course, expected than in return the Balts treat resident Russians with respect and dignity. After the fall of the Soviet Union and massive exodus of skilled Russian labor (virtually all the doctors, scientists, engineers, etc...in the "Baltic Republics" were ethnic Russians), the aborigines have simply proven themselves incapable of upkeeping an infrastructure created by a higher people. They've speedily pawned off all of the Baltic area's industry and infrastructure, so that now the Baltics are facing an economic catastrophe. Soon the 'white injun' Balts will be tripping over the 'Russian immigrants' to get out of their ill-fated banana republics.

[National_Nord]

I wish that the situation here would be the same. Russians in Estonia are ruining walls with "ANTIFA" graffiti. They're the most common in Russian areas of Tallinn and central Tallinn(next to a Russian area of Tallinn). The funny thing is... There are no fascist movements in Estonia.

There seems to be a large cultural cap between the Russians of Russia and between Russian immigrants of Estonia.(If it is true that even the simple Russian in Russia doesn't like ANTIFAs and the reds/commies) The Russians here are a bunch of commie bastards, the ANTIFA graffiti everywhere just proves my claim.

Unfortunately, the Soviet Union, many left a bunch of Russian-Communist, that does not correspond to reality. Somehow Russian-speaking Estonian praise the Soviet Union, but are silent about the Russia Empire. I have a great colleague, who has Estonian roots, divisions, or strife we do not have: we equally do not like red, migrants from Central Asia, China, Africa, the Caucasus, he was also a pagan, like myself.

Interesting fact: Estonia merely moved the monument, not destroying it, while in Khimki, near Moscow was demolished monument and the graves of war in the general silence, "the official patriots".

Russian-speaking Baltic states - is not always Russian, including on the mentality. The Soviet mentality is opposed to Russian mentalitu down to the smallest detail.

[Sventovit]

Russian-speaking Baltic states - is not always Russian, including on the mentality. The Soviet mentality is opposed to Russian mentalitu down to the smallest detail.
Брать сторону инородцев чыхонцев против собственого народа когда стало частью русского менталитета?

P.S. I think if you went to Estonia or Finland and told your NS "comrades" that you were a Russian (I very much doubt that you are, but let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are a Russian of lower than average intelligence) seeking friendship, I think you would grow disenchanted with your 'great colleagues' very soon. In fact, why go that far? Read the way resident Finns, Latvians and Estonians describe Russians - "mongrel scum", "rapists, bandits, criminals", "swarthy mongoloids", and so forth in fact, there is virtually no chance that you are unfamiliar with the Baltic attitude towards Russians, not if you read the news, which leads me to wonder... well, perhaps we are going to far into personal details here; after all what one gets off on in his own private bedroom, whether lace or whips and leather is his own private affair....

[The Lawspeaker]

Sventovit. Why do you think that so many people (not just Eastern Europe) dislike Russians ?
It's because of that attitude that you are now showing.

[Sventovit]

Sventovit. Why do you think that so many people (not just Eastern Europe) dislike Russians ?
It's because of that attitude that you are now showing.


What attitude do you think Russians should show towards people who, in exchange for Russians practically building their countries up from a couple of rude-mud hut villages into something approaching civilization, pouring billions of dollars worth of aid into these little banana republics, developing the industry and infrastructure from practically stone-age level, treat Russians worse than dogshit? Where else in the world does a grown man, a doctor, of all people, throw away a child's passport because the child is not fluent in the doctor's language? This kind of barbaric, "asiatic" behavior is observable only amongst Balts, and to a certain extent other Eastern European in regards to Russians. Why? Because there is something horribly wrong with the innate character and the self-identification of most Eastern European "little people" - they cannot help but notice that great peoples, like Russians and Germans, who develop empires and great cultures, leave them in the dust. They are the flotsam of history, which they are obviously well aware of on a subconscious level at least, but even a poodle wants to bark at a dog. This is what essentially all the vehement Russophobic vituperations of various Baltic, Ukrainian, and other 'Eastern European' 'nationalists come down to - they are little ankle biting dogs that have spotted a huge lion that happens to be chained with a rusty chain to a flimsy post at the moment, but still, the apparent 'incapacitation' of the lion is enough to give the little ankle biters courage to confont, in their own cowardly fashion, the lion. The nationalism of all these petty little ethnoses is based on Russofobia precisely because Russia is the only country in the entire area of any historical or geopolitical consequence, and Russians are the only ethnos in the area the can compare with their contributions to culture and science with other Europeans. It has nothing to do with the supposed Russian brutality towards said peoples - if Russians were one third the vicious mongols that Latvians and Estonians make them out to be they would long since castrated the entire male population of those countries and cannibalized their children. The fact is, Russophobia is motivated primarily by the envy and overwhelming feeling of inferiority that the impotent feels towards the virile and the talentless mediocrity feels toward the renaissance man. The fact that you would use a Belorussian's opinion about this entire matter as justification for your Russophobia simply confirms your status as an emasculated, ineffectual talentless, powerless mediocrity that needs someone to blame for his failure as a human and someone to hate in order to boost his self-concept.

Whether peoples that matter dislike Russians or not is immaterial - smart people respect Russians, and that's what's important. Western European Russophobes need to get a sense of perspective - by their standards, Russians should hate Germans with a wild and burning passion for what happened during the GPW, but this is simply not the case, because the keeping of grudges is precisely one of those things that distinguishes the weak and ineffectual from the strong and decisive.

[The Lawspeaker]

You know that all of this is bullshit. The Russians displaced and murdered millions. And frankly- if you like the place so much: what brought you to America?

[Karl]

You really don't know the meaning of the word "immigrant", do you?

Main Entry: im·mi·grant
Pronunciation: \ˈi-mə-grənt\
Function: noun
Date: 1789

: one that immigrates: as a : a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence b : a plant or animal that becomes established in an area where it was previously unknown

— immigrant adjective

Estonians have been in Estonia for at least 11 000 - 13 000 years(since the ice cap retreated). The majority of Russians are rather recent immigrants when comparing 50 years with 13 000 years.

[National_Nord]

Main Entry: im·mi·grant
Estonians have been in Estonia for at least 11 000 - 13 000 years(since the ice cap retreated). The majority of Russians are rather recent immigrants when comparing 50 years with 13 000 years.

Tartu - one of the oldest cities in the Baltic. Permanent settlement of ancient Ests at the site dates from the V century, the mound VI-VIII century. City called Tarbatu (tarvas - Est. 'Bison') - hence the later name of the Estonian Tartu, and, perhaps, Dörpt, Dorpat Dorpat and in the Russian transcription. In 1030 Grand Prince Yaroslav the Wise built a city Yuriev, called on the Christian name of the prince: "In the same year he went to Yaroslav Chud, and defeated them, and put the city Yurev - PVL. Should be noted that Chud and Estonians distantly-allied tribes, and relations in the city have always been tolerant and calm to all who live there.
In 1215 Yurev was captured by German knights, swordsmen, but in 1223 released as a result of a general uprising of the population, which supported the Russian detachment of 200 men led by Prince Vyachko. In 1224, after a long siege, was taken Yurev troops swordsmen, executed for the stubborn resistance of all prisoners, the city's defenders, Estonians and Slavs, and was called in German Dorpat. Bishop Hermann I made it the center of his tenure - the diocese of Dorpat.

In the Middle Ages between the Russian and Estonians were deadly enmity.

[Sventovit]

You know that all of this is bullshit. The Russians displaced and murdered millions.

Do you cry for the millions of Amerindians murdered by Spanish and Portuguese in Latin America? Or the thousands murdered by Northern Europeans in North America? Or the millions of Russians murdered by Germans during WWII or by Mongols during medieval times? I sincerely doubt you've shed even a single crocodile tear for these people.


And frankly- if you like the place so much: what brought you to America?

Birth does not an immigrant make, except perhaps in Karl's severely limited understanding of the English lexicon.

[Karl]

In a sense you're right, but more than anything, they were put there by Russian altruism and goodwill. During the Soviet Union, "brotherhood of the nations" was the fad du jour. Even shortly after the Great Patriotic War, where close to 20 million ethnic Russians died, the Soviets kept pouring billions of roubles into the bottomless hole that was the modern Baltic republics, essentially creating their entire infrastructure and industry out of nothing, and this process continued until the 1980s. The Russian people went along with this because they are by nature generous and altruistic, and of course, expected than in return the Balts treat resident Russians with respect and dignity. After the fall of the Soviet Union and massive exodus of skilled Russian labor (virtually all the doctors, scientists, engineers, etc...in the "Baltic Republics" were ethnic Russians), the aborigines have simply proven themselves incapable of upkeeping an infrastructure created by a higher people. They've speedily pawned off all of the Baltic area's industry and infrastructure, so that now the Baltics are facing an economic catastrophe. Soon the 'white injun' Balts will be tripping over the 'Russian immigrants' to get out of their ill-fated banana republics.

Estonia was very rich before WW2, richer than Finland and way richer than Russia. Even The Economist in the 1930's wrote about Estonia and how well it handled the economic crisis. The Soviets messed up everything here.

I disagree with you, Russians aren't "higher people", who created "everything" in Estonia.

[The Lawspeaker]

Do you cry for the millions of Amerindians murdered by Spanish and Portuguese in Latin America? Or the thousands murdered by Northern Europeans in North America? Or the millions of Russians murdered by Germans during WWII or by Mongols during medieval times? I sincerely doubt you've shed even a single crocodile tear for these people.
As a matter of fact I find that to be just as disturbing but the Germans and other Europeans are better breed. Why ? Because they at least recognize and try to make amends for what they have done.




Birth does not an immigrant make, except perhaps in Karl's severely limited understanding of the English lexicon.
Yes it does. Moroccans are no Dutchmen either. And neither are you a European eventhough you are living in a European country (yes the U.S.A is culturally a European country)

[Sventovit]

Main Entry: im·mi·grant
Pronunciation: \ˈi-mə-grənt\
Function: noun
Date: 1789

: one that immigrates: as a : a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence

Good, you managed to look it up in a dictionary. Now please tell me when Estonia became a sovereign country.


Estonians have been in Estonia for at least 11 000 - 13 000 years(since the ice cap retreated). The majority of Russians are rather recent immigrants when comparing 50 years with 13 000 years.

LMAO, 13,000 years? Jesus Christ, the quality of teaching in Baltic universities has obviously not simply decreased but plainly nose-dived since all the Russian PhDs left if fully grown men believe that the Estonian ethnic group was contemporary with the last glacial maxim.

[National_Nord]

Estonia was very rich before WW2, richer than Finland and way richer than Russia. Even The Economist in the 1930's wrote about Estonia and how well it handled the economic crisis. The Soviets messed up everything here.

I disagree with you, Russians aren't "higher people", who created "everything" in Estonia.

No one in Estonia does not criticize the Russian Empire, which belonged to the Bolsheviks Estonia, which indicates a positive or at least neutral on Estonians to the traditional Russian imperial state system.
Estonia did not like the value system of socialism with the egalitarianism that was in the USSR.

[Karl]

Брать сторону инородцев чыхонцев против собственого народа когда стало частью русского менталитета?

P.S. I think if you went to Estonia or Finland and told your NS "comrades" that you were a Russian (I very much doubt that you are, but let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are a Russian of lower than average intelligence) seeking friendship, I think you would grow disenchanted with your 'great colleagues' very soon. In fact, why go that far? Read the way resident Finns, Latvians and Estonians describe Russians - "mongrel scum", "rapists, bandits, criminals", "swarthy mongoloids", and so forth in fact, there is virtually no chance that you are unfamiliar with the Baltic attitude towards Russians, not if you read the news, which leads me to wonder... well, perhaps we are going to far into personal details here; after all what one gets off on in his own private bedroom, whether lace or whips and leather is his own private affair....

It's true that the Russians in Estonia, although being a minority, are a clear majority in crime and are the most represented ethnicity in Estonian prisons(76% if I'm not mistaken).


Soon the 'white injun' Balts will be tripping over the 'Russian immigrants' to get out of their ill-fated banana republics.

You aren't any nicer towards Latvians and Lithuanians as I see. Why bring Balts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts) into the debate, when you're arguing with an Estonian?

[Karl]

What attitude do you think Russians should show towards people who, in exchange for Russians practically building their countries up from a couple of rude-mud hut villages into something approaching civilization, pouring billions of dollars worth of aid into these little banana republics, developing the industry and infrastructure from practically stone-age level, treat Russians worse than dogshit? Where else in the world does a grown man, a doctor, of all people, throw away a child's passport because the child is not fluent in the doctor's language? This kind of barbaric, "asiatic" behavior is observable only amongst Balts, and to a certain extent other Eastern European in regards to Russians. Why? Because there is something horribly wrong with the innate character and the self-identification of most Eastern European "little people" - they cannot help but notice that great peoples, like Russians and Germans, who develop empires and great cultures, leave them in the dust. They are the flotsam of history, which they are obviously well aware of on a subconscious level at least, but even a poodle wants to bark at a dog. This is what essentially all the vehement Russophobic vituperations of various Baltic, Ukrainian, and other 'Eastern European' 'nationalists come down to - they are little ankle biting dogs that have spotted a huge lion that happens to be chained with a rusty chain to a flimsy post at the moment, but still, the apparent 'incapacitation' of the lion is enough to give the little ankle biters courage to confont, in their own cowardly fashion, the lion. The nationalism of all these petty little ethnoses is based on Russofobia precisely because Russia is the only country in the entire area of any historical or geopolitical consequence, and Russians are the only ethnos in the area the can compare with their contributions to culture and science with other Europeans. It has nothing to do with the supposed Russian brutality towards said peoples - if Russians were one third the vicious mongols that Latvians and Estonians make them out to be they would long since castrated the entire male population of those countries and cannibalized their children. The fact is, Russophobia is motivated primarily by the envy and overwhelming feeling of inferiority that the impotent feels towards the virile and the talentless mediocrity feels toward the renaissance man. The fact that you would use a Belorussian's opinion about this entire matter as justification for your Russophobia simply confirms your status as an emasculated, ineffectual talentless, powerless mediocrity that needs someone to blame for his failure as a human and someone to hate in order to boost his self-concept.

Whether peoples that matter dislike Russians or not is immaterial - smart people respect Russians, and that's what's important. Western European Russophobes need to get a sense of perspective - by their standards, Russians should hate Germans with a wild and burning passion for what happened during the GPW, but this is simply not the case, because the keeping of grudges is precisely one of those things that distinguishes the weak and ineffectual from the strong and decisive.

Now it's a clear fact that The Apricity has a new troll. You have a quite biased viewpoint.

[Sventovit]

As a matter of fact I find that to be just as disturbing but the Germans and other Europeans are better breed. Why ? Because they at least recognize and try to make amends for what they have done.


Yes, I am sure it was the Germans' proverbial politeness that forced them to pay a certain amount of reparations as "bloodgeld" for ~20,000,000 Russian dead, not the fact that the Red Army razed Berlin to the ground. And of course, had the war turned out differently the Germans only plan was to liberate the Russian subhumans from the JUdeo-Bol'shevik scum that ruled them, but the inbred mongrels had the temerity to actually murder their Teutonic liberators in cold blood! What barbarity! Even so, had the war turned out differently, the Germans would have let bygones be bygones and given the untermensch ingrates their freedom and land back, and never disturbed them again.

Spare me the NS revisionism. Unlike yours, my IQ numbers in the three-digits.


Yes it does.

No, it doesn't. I have no intention of debating political philosophy with someone of your intellectual caliber, and trust me, you can't twist that into a compliment. I am taking about the meaning of the word, and if you don't understand simple English semantics, I am probably not one to enlighten you.


Moroccans are no Dutchmen either.
I never claimed that they were.


And neither are you a European eventhough you are living in a European country (yes the U.S.A is culturally a European country)

If being a 'European' means being a prissy, ineffectual limp wristed weanling - which could very perfectly describe some who shall remain moniker-less - than I want no part of your 'Europeanness." I am an unmistakeable Northern Europid, I speak English perfectly (most likely I am more fluent in English than you are), I have a good job, a post-graduate education, and contribute in whatever capacity I can to the well-being of my friends and neighbors. And, by the way, the only peope who would ever question my belonging in America are - surprise again! - ineffectual limp-pwristed weaklings who need a hateful outlet for their crushing feelings of personal worthlessness.

[Karl]

Tartu - one of the oldest cities in the Baltic. Permanent settlement of ancient Ests at the site dates from the V century, the mound VI-VIII century. City called Tarbatu (tarvas - Est. 'Bison') - hence the later name of the Estonian Tartu, and, perhaps, Dörpt, Dorpat Dorpat and in the Russian transcription. In 1030 Grand Prince Yaroslav the Wise built a city Yuriev, called on the Christian name of the prince: "In the same year he went to Yaroslav Chud, and defeated them, and put the city Yurev - PVL. Should be noted that Chud and Estonians distantly-allied tribes, and relations in the city have always been tolerant and calm to all who live there.
In 1215 Yurev was captured by German knights, swordsmen, but in 1223 released as a result of a general uprising of the population, which supported the Russian detachment of 200 men led by Prince Vyachko. In 1224, after a long siege, was taken Yurev troops swordsmen, executed for the stubborn resistance of all prisoners, the city's defenders, Estonians and Slavs, and was called in German Dorpat. Bishop Hermann I made it the center of his tenure - the diocese of Dorpat.

In the Middle Ages between the Russian and Estonians were deadly enmity.

In 1061, Estonians retook Tartu and massacred the Russian population. I also said majority of immigrants, before. There have been Russians in Estonia before USSR, like the Russians who escaped the Russian Empire and settled on the west coast of lake Peipus, because of religion(they were harassed in the Russian Empire), but the number of Russians was always small. Around 1% or less.

[Karl]

Good, you managed to look it up in a dictionary. Now please tell me when Estonia became a sovereign country.



LMAO, 13,000 years? Jesus Christ, the quality of teaching in Baltic universities has obviously not simply decreased but plainly nose-dived since all the Russian PhDs left if fully grown men believe that the Estonian ethnic group was contemporary with the last glacial maxim.


Pulli settlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulli_settlement), located on the right bank of the Pärnu River, is the oldest known human settlement in Estonia. It is located two kilometers from the town of Sindi, which is 14 kilometers from Pärnu. According to radiocarbon dating, Pulli was settled around 11,000 years ago, at the beginning of the 9th millennium BC. A dog tooth found at the Pulli settlement is the first evidence for the existence of the domesticated dog in the territory of Estonia.

I'm quite sure that there were settlements in Estonia even before 9000BC, as finding all the ancient human settlements is impossible.

[Sventovit]

I'm quite sure that there were settlements in Estonia even before 9000BC, as finding all the ancient human settlements is impossible.

Now demonstrate that these people called themselves "Estonians" and considered themselves to be essentially the same ethnos as the eponymous tribe inhabiting aforementioned area.

By the way, there are anatomically modern human remains from Israel that date circa ~120,000 YBP, but do you suppose perhaps that it would not be quite right to claim that they considered themselves Jewish :D?

Anyway the Estonian ethnos has my heartfelt congratulations - at 15,000 it's the longest uninterrupted surviving ethnic group in the world, beating the Han Chinese by perhaps 11 thousand years.

[RoyBatty]

I wish that the situation here would be the same. Russians in Estonia are ruining walls with "ANTIFA" graffiti. They're the most common in Russian areas of Tallinn and central Tallinn(next to a Russian area of Tallinn). The funny thing is... There are no fascist movements in Estonia.

There seems to be a large cultural cap between the Russians of Russia and between Russian immigrants of Estonia.(If it is true that even the simple Russian in Russia doesn't like ANTIFAs and the reds/commies) The Russians here are a bunch of commie bastards, the ANTIFA graffiti everywhere just proves my claim.

I believe that the ethnic Russians in Estonia are not "classic ANTIFA" types, they simply have some "cultural differences" with the ethnic Estonians so it's convenient to label them as fascists even though, imo, the Estonians aren't classic fascists either.

In other words, there is the confusing situation where people who aren't really commies or anti-fascist are in a confrontation with people who aren't fascist or national socialist. Of course there is some Soviet Commie / Estonian Fascist history but this is incidental imo. The real argument is between different ethnic and cultural groups, not between ideologies.

From what I could determine in Russia itself people are generally more conservative, not very interested in liberal ideas and definitely not politically correct so I doubt many tears will be shed for the dead ANTIFA.

[Karl]

Now demonstrate that these people called themselves "Estonians" and considered themselves to be essentially the same ethnos as the eponymous tribe inhabiting aforementioned area.

By the way, there are anatomically modern human remains from Israel that date circa ~120,000 YBP, but do you suppose perhaps that it would not be quite right to claim that they considered themselves Jewish :D?

Anyway the Estonian ethnos has my heartfelt congratulations - at 15,000 it's the longest uninterrupted surviving ethnic group in the world, beating the Han Chinese by perhaps 11 thousand years.

Finno-Ugrics and Basques are the natives of Europe. While most Basques and Finno-Ugrics were assimilated, then a few regions of Europe preserved their native culture. Like Finland and Estonia. Estonia's first inhabitants were Finnic and they still are.

[Sventovit]

No one in Estonia does not criticize the Russian Empire, which belonged to the Bolsheviks Estonia, which indicates a positive or at least neutral on Estonians to the traditional Russian imperial state system.
Estonia did not like the value system of socialism with the egalitarianism that was in the USSR.

You're an ignoramus. Estonians betrayed the Russian Empire to the Bolsheviks, then whined like little bitches after their beloved Bolsheviks (gee, couldn't trust them, who could a thunk it?) turned around and f****ed them right in the ass, invading their beloved Estonia, and occupying in, instead giving the Estonians independence, like they promised. The irony of course lies in the fact that the Estonians defend the purported legality of the treacherous treaty they made with the Bolsheviks (in which they agreed to stab the whites in the back in return for fweedumb), who were at the time a criminal organization, and not the government of Russia, and simultaneously cry foul vis-a-vis the occupation of Estonia by this very same Bolshevik government to which they betrayed the Whites.

[RoyBatty]

Finno-Ugrics and Basques are the natives of Europe. While most Basques and Finno-Ugrics were assimilated, then a few regions of Europe preserved their native culture. Like Finland and Estonia. Estonia's first inhabitants were Finnic and they still are.

Finno-Ugrics come from behind the Urals. I think it's a stretch to call them "natives of Europe" in the sense that they "originated" there. Afaik they didn't but then again, who really knows the origin of people and races.

[Karl]

Finno-Ugrics come from behind the Urals. I think it's a stretch to call them "natives of Europe" in the sense that they "originated" there. Afaik they didn't but then again, who really knows the origin of people and races.

That's false and has been disproved by modern scientists with proper resources and data.

[Sventovit]

Finno-Ugrics and Basques are the natives of Europe. While most Basques and Finno-Ugrics were assimilated, then a few regions of Europe preserved their native culture. Like Finland and Estonia. Estonia's first inhabitants were Finnic and they still are.

If by "Finno-Ugrics" you mean the racially Uralic tribes of the Pit-Comb Pottery Culture who brought Finno-Ugric speech and Mongoloid admixture into Europe, and from who Eastern Finns and Estonians are, to a large degree, descended, than I hate to tell you this, but they were from beyond the Urals.

[Sventovit]

That's false and has been disproven by modern scientists with proper resources and data.

What 'scientists'? Tatjana Alekseeva proved the Siberian origin of the Uralic racial type of the Pit-Comb Pottery culture all the way back in 1997. If you're as erudite as you claim to be, you would have known about it by know, and if you're as educated as you fancy yourself, you can read all about it here (http://www.rfbr.ru/old/pub/knigi/alekseeva/cntall.htm).

[Karl]

You're an ignoramus. Estonians betrayed the Russian Empire to the Bolsheviks, then whined like little bitches after their beloved Bolsheviks (gee, couldn't trust them, who could a thunk it?) turned around and f****ed them right in the ass, invading their beloved Estonia, and occupying in, instead giving the Estonians independence, like they promised. The irony of course lies in the fact that the Estonians defend the purported legality of the treacherous treaty they made with the Bolsheviks (in which they agreed to stab the whites in the back in return for fweedumb), who were at the time a criminal organization, and not the government of Russia, and simultaneously cry foul vis-a-vis the occupation of Estonia by this very same Bolshevik government to which they betrayed the Whites.

That's right, Estonians are solely responsible for the Bolsheviks winning. ;)

http://metaldetectingworld.com/detecting_in_estonia/map_of_russia.jpg

[Svarog]

As a matter of fact I find that to be just as disturbing but the Germans and other Europeans are better breed. Why ? Because they at least recognize and try to make amends for what they have done.)

:D :D

It did not take even whole 30 years to jump from one world war into the another for Germans, mistakes corrected :rolleyes:

As for the English (Argentina, Ireland, pretty much wehenver Americans did), French, Germans again etc - the fact they do not war on their soil does not make their wars any less wrong, just worse

You, as western Europeans, have fought all together way more wars then fucking Serbs did and yet no one ever mentions that - what makes us and you different is that we fight our wars on OUR territories, and that is one thing you should be ashamed of.

As for the Russians:

WW1 - justified
WW2 - justified (still nice to see a red flag waving over Berlin, always makes me laugh on the stories of Slavic inferiority)
Afghanistan - a country that is declared war on terror by mighty USA - not many knows that USA was the one sponsored talibans in wars against Russians, so please stop crying for 9/11 YOU did that
Georgia - justified

I don't see one reason of Russia being called barbaric or whatever country

and yet, most of you will never be able to admit that, but not many of you will EVER have the cultural level above the Russian one - literature, classical music, architecture, Russia got it all on the level so high, even if they don't do anything in the next 500 years, many won't be able to catch up

[Karl]

If by "Finno-Ugrics" you mean the racially Uralic tribes of the Pit-Comb Pottery Culture who brought Finno-Ugric speech and Mongoloid admixture into Europe, and from who Eastern Finns and Estonians are, to a large degree, descended, than I hate to tell you this, but they were from beyond the Urals.

The Finno-Ugrics around the Urals are mixed with Tatars, Mongols, Turkics and Siberians. Just like the Russians around them.

The main Finno-Ugric migration was from the west to the east, thus some even reached areas beyond the Urals, but were assimilated by Asians.

[Sventovit]

The Finno-Ugrics around the Urals are mixed with Tatars, Mongols, Turkics and Siberians.

I am not talking about modern Khanty and Mansy in the Volga-Ural region. I am talking about various tribes of the Pit Comb Pottery culture whom in the Neolithic brought into Europe from beyond the Urals not only Finno-Ugric speech, but also the Uralic racial type, which is a stabilized mix between Cro-Magnoid europeoid elements and mongoloid South Siberian elements, with the proportion being around 50/50.


Just like the Russians around them.

Yes, the peripheral Russian groups of the Ural region (the Vyatka-Kama anthropological zone by Bunak) have more mongoloid admixture than the Russians of Europe, but this is due precisely to the greater role of the Finno-Ugric -racially Uralic - substrate in the formation of this type, not because of mixing with Tatars, Turkics or full-blooded mongoloids. It's quite simple really; just about all the mongoloid blood that Russians do have, they got from assimilating various Finno-Ugric groups. That's why mongoloid admixture among Russians is greatest among Northern Russians, who have the strongest Finnic substratum. And of course, in Eastern Estonians populations this substratum has an even greater importance.


The main Finno-Ugric migration was from the west to the east, thus some even reached areas beyond the Urals, but were assimilated by Asians.

LOL. Like I said, the quality of education in various Baltic institutions of higher learning has obviously reached abysmal lows.

[RoyBatty]

That's false and has been disproved by modern scientists with proper resources and data.

Is it false? Disproved by which scientists? Estonian ones or ones with an interest in finding convenient proofs? What data?

For example, the Hungarian language is an Ugric language which again is a member of the Finno-Ugric language group. There are sources which state that this language originated in the Ural region and that variants of it is spoken on both sides of the Ural range.

Another example, a Russian friend of mine has a Russian Tartar friend (from Tatarstan, not the Crimea. "Crimea Tartars" are Turks, not real Tartars). My friend told me how this Tartar friend and a Finnish lady he introduced him to could communicate a little bit due to the linguistic similarities.

Seeing as Finno-Ugric languages originated in the Urals region it's only reasonable to assume that the people who speak them (Finns, Estonians, Hungarians etc) can also trace a significant part of their ancestry back to this region.

Either that's what happened or the language was imported and "adopted" by natives from the regions where it is in use today.

The implication of this is that Estonians either:

- Can trace their origins back to the Urals

OR

- Adopted somebody else's language

[Karl]

Is it false? Disproved by which scientists? Estonian ones or ones with an interest in finding convenient proofs? What data?

It's disproved by a number of scientists, not only Finnish and Estonian scientists.


For example, the Hungarian language is an Ugric language which again is a member of the Finno-Ugric language group. There are sources which state that this language originated in the Ural region and that variants of it is spoken on both sides of the Ural range.

Another example, a Russian friend of mine has a Russian Tartar friend (from Tatarstan, not the Crimea. "Crimea Tartars" are Turks, not real Tartars). My friend told me how this Tartar friend and a Finnish lady he introduced him to could communicate a little bit due to the linguistic similarities.

Seeing as Finno-Ugric languages originated in the Urals region it's only reasonable to assume that the people who speak them (Finns, Estonians, Hungarians etc) can also trace a significant part of their ancestry back to this region.

Either that's what happened or the language was imported and "adopted" by natives from the regions where it is in use today.

The implication of this is that Estonians either:

- Can trace their origins back to the Urals

OR

- Adopted somebody else's language



Hungarians have no genetic similarities with Finns and Estonians and there are very few linguistic similarities between the Hungarian language and the Finnish/Estonian languages. I couldn't understand a single word of Hungarian, if I heard it spoken. Norwegian and Persian are linguistically more similar than Hungarian and the Baltic-Finnic languages.

By the way, I've met an Udmurt lady(Udmurts live next to Tatars, but she was unmixed and fully Europid, with pale skin and red hair), she spoke in her native language and I didn't understand a word. Finno-Ugric languages having connections with Tatar languages, that's impossible even by the old theories.

If I can't communicate with a Hungarian or an Udmurt, then how could I communicate with a Tatar?

I also recommend reading this, so you wouldn't be stuck in the 19th century with your views.

Who are the Finns? (http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/sky/julkaisut/SKY2006_1/1FK60.1.9.WIIK.pdf)

[Sventovit]

I also recommend reading this, so you wouldn't be stuck in the 19th century with your views.

Who are the Finns? (http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/sky/julkaisut/SKY2006_1/1FK60.1.9.WIIK.pdf)

Kalevi Wiik is a crackpot and a laughingstock. His theories have virtually no support amongst anthropologists/linguists anywhere except Finland, and his ideas are actually the lunatic fringe of NE European paleoanthropology and linguistics rather than the accepted mainstream opinion in the field of Uralistics.

[Sventovit]

Asega, since you appear to be the resident expert on immigration and its discontents, let me ask you a hypothetical question. Let's say, sometime in the near future, the Hispanic population of California, New Mexico or Arizona manages to successfully secede from the U.S. After the secession, they will proceed quickly to severely curtail most of the civic freedoms of the white population who were too old, too poor, too ingrown, etc... and for some reason decided to or were forced to stay in this hypothetical Hispanistan. Will the white American population of that country have become immigrants, and would your opinion of and attitude towards them be as hostile as it is towards Russian "immigrants" in the Baltics? Think and answer carefully.

[Alex Delarge]

Do you cry for the millions of Amerindians murdered by Spanish and Portuguese in Latin America? Or the thousands murdered by Northern Europeans in North America? Or the millions of Russians murdered by Germans during WWII or by Mongols during medieval times? I sincerely doubt you've shed even a single crocodile tear for these people.


Do you have any source on this ?

[Jägerstaffel]

Sventovit.

http://www.feministe.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/WALL_OF_TEXT.jpg

[Sventovit]

Sventovit.

http://www.feministe.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/WALL_OF_TEXT.jpg

Sorry, I'll try to indent and punctuate better.

[Osweo]

Finno-Ugrics and Basques are the natives of Europe.
Kuroti raisk, will you STOP repeating the rubbish that has IE as alien to Europe!!! It's just a slim possibility, that's all, not a prroven fact!

That's right, Estonians are solely responsible for the Bolsheviks winning. ;)

http://metaldetectingworld.com/detecting_in_estonia/map_of_russia.jpg
The Civil War was won by control over the industrial and transport nodes of the empire. In other words Leningrad and Moscow. If some Estonians helped Lenin keep Peter, then yes, their assistance COULD have been fatal for the Whites.

[Sventovit]

Do you have any source on this ?

Well, I am pretty sure that the Spaniards killed, directly or indirectly, millions of Indians, and while I am not sure how many the Portuguese wiped off the face of the earth, surely the total number (Spanish victims + Portuguese victims) is somewhere in the millions :D.

[Hussar]

Do you have any source on this ?


Alex, i think it's not debatable how Spaniards killed (directly or not) millions of amerindians in south america and central america.

Mostly indirectly, to be really honest.

[Brynhild]

Ye Gods, I've just read the last 4 pages and completely forgot what the original subject matter was about. Reminds me of Chinese Whispers, and how quickly the story changes.

[Alex Delarge]

Well, I am pretty sure that the Spaniards killed, directly or indirectly, millions of Indians, and while I am not sure how many the Portuguese wiped off the face of the earth, surely the total number (Spanish victims + Portuguese victims) is somewhere in the millions :D.

Thanks, i thought you were making this up and didn't actually have any source. You just proved my point.


Alex, i think it's not debatable how Spaniards killed (directly or not) millions of amerindians in south america and central america.

Mostly indirectly, to be really honest.

I was asking about the portuguese, who only had Brazil. And in Brazil i never read or heard about any mass extinction of amerindians.

[Troll's Puzzle]

Alex, i think it's not debatable how Spaniards killed (directly or not) millions of amerindians in south america and central america.

Mostly indirectly, to be really honest.

it is if you're Mynydd. ;)

the Spanish never harmed anyone, it's all lies made up by anti-spanish Anglo historians to cover their own dirty deeds!!!!! http://images.mylot.com/userImages/images/postphotos/1857272.gif

[Sventovit]

Thanks, i thought you were making this up and didn't actually have any source. You just proved my point.

Asking me to prove that the discovery of the New World was an unmitigated demographic disaster for the natives is kind of like asking me to prove that the earth is round. If you can't see the self-evident, will anything I post or say change your mind? It's nearly universally accepted by historians that a very large proportion of the Indian population of Central and South America perished as a result of the Iberian incursions, mostly as a result of the contagions brought by the Europeans, but often by more direct means. As far as I am aware, the most conservative estimates states that between 1492 and 1650, ~60% of the native population died, but most estimates hover in the 80 to 95% range (either figure is a demographic catastrophe by any standard). Undoubtedly, the Spanish killed far more (since they controlled more territory), but even if 5,000,000 died as a result of Spanish activity, and only 10,000 as a result of Portuguese activity, the total number is still in the millions.


I was asking about the portuguese, who only had Brazil. And in Brazil i never read or heard about any mass extinction of amerindians.

How many Amerindians are there in Brazil again?

[Óttar]

Excuse me for perhaps being off topic, but a Germanic Cossack?! :eek: :confused:

[Lahtari]

Kalevi Wiik is a crackpot and a laughingstock. His theories have virtually no support amongst anthropologists/linguists anywhere except [in] Finland,

:D :D :D

Kalevi Wiik & friends + Finnish linguist community =

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/DataZak/blog/greatcrossing.jpg

[Sventovit]

Excuse me for perhaps being off topic, but a Germanic Cossack?! :eek: :confused:

The guy's a cretin. He thinks Zaporozhian Cossacks are descendants of Goths.

http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/137604/1/The-Zaporozhye-Cossacks-Writing-A-Letter-To-The-Turkish-Sultan,-1890-91.jpg

[Falkata]

Well, I am pretty sure that the Spaniards killed, directly or indirectly, millions of Indians, and while I am not sure how many the Portuguese wiped off the face of the earth, surely the total number (Spanish victims + Portuguese victims) is somewhere in the millions :D.

So spaniard killed "millions" and north europeans killed "thousands"?
I wonder why Central and South America are nowadays mainly amerindian and mestizo while the anglo america is pred white :confused:

[Falkata]

How many Amerindians are there in Brazil again?

Not less than in USA or Canada probably. I´m talking about real amerindians of course, not people who claim to be indian when they are 1/8 cherokee at most and they dont look nothing like a native american. That´s pathetic

[Karl]

Kuradi raisk, will you STOP repeating the rubbish that has IE as alien to Europe!!! It's just a slim possibility, that's all, not a prroven fact!

How do you explain this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/1256894.stm) then?

This shows that the natives of the British isles weren't Indo-European.


The Civil War was won by control over the industrial and transport nodes of the empire. In other words Leningrad and Moscow. If some Estonians helped Lenin keep Peter, then yes, their assistance COULD have been fatal for the Whites.

Estonia lacked the manpower and the motivation. The Estonian Independence war was a defensive war, not an aggressive war. Advancing into the Russian territory was a rather unpopular decision among the soldiers. The front hadn't moved for quite a time when the peace was signed. Only a delusional person would say that Estonia could have destroyed Bolshevik Russia. Estonia had 1.2 million people, with such a small population, you couldn't take on the Bolsheviks.

[Osweo]

How do you explain this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/1256894.stm) then?

This shows that the natives of the British isles weren't Indo-European.
At one point of course not. I never said they were!

But you said something on the lines of IE having come to Europe from the east, from without.

I fail to see how a Finnic north and east, and a Vasconic far west PRECLUDE the development of PIE in Central Europe.

It is common knowledge that various traits link PIE with Finnic, with one of the Caucasian families, and with Etruscan. Please, look at a map, and tell me where we should be looking for the PIE Urheimat! In Tajikistan?!? :rolleyes:

The IE family has only two main branches represented in the east, Indo-Aryan and Tocharian. All the others are in Europe, i.e. the centre of greatest diversity of IE language. The 'trunk' of the IE 'tree' is clearly to be looked for in mainland Europe.


Estonia lacked the manpower and the motivation. The Estonian
Independence war was a defensive war, not an aggressive war. Advancing into the Russian territory was a rather unpopular decision among the soldiers. The front hadn't moved for quite a time when the peace was signed. Only a delusional person would say that Estonia could have destroyed Bolshevik Russia. Estonia had 1.2 million people, with such a small population, you couldn't take on the Bolsheviks.
Every second and every action counts in such a dangerous situation. If the Estonian elite sanctioned the slightest 'slowing down' of the Whites, this would have helped the Bolsheviks immensely.

Things had gone too far in Russia for a return to anything like 1914, I admit - the internal contradictions were too great. But the victory of Lenin and Trotsky was hardly inevitable even at this point. Estonian actions will not have been THE straw that broke the camel's back, but are hardly insignificant, it would seem.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

[QUOTE]The Russian people went along with this because they are by nature generous and altruistic, and of course, expected than in return the Balts treat resident Russians with respect and dignity. BIG Bullshit.

Russians are the most chauvunistic people and biggest bullies around. Massmurdering and deporting people from their own country is not very generous.


After the fall of the Soviet Union and massive exodus of skilled Russian labor (virtually all the doctors, scientists, engineers, etc...in the "Baltic Republics" were ethnic Russians), the aborigines have simply proven themselves incapable of upkeeping an infrastructure created by a higher people.
Hahahaa!!! Hors is back!!
Try deportation of Baltic scientists, engineers and doctors.


They've speedily pawned off all of the Baltic area's industry and infrastructure, so that now the Baltics are facing an economic catastrophe. Soon the 'white injun' Balts will be tripping over the 'Russian immigrants' to get out of their ill-fated banana republics.

LOL!!! Russians like you live an eternal lie and in the you die just as ignorant as you were when you were born.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

But you said something on the lines of IE having come to Europe from the east, from without.



Ötzi was a true European. He has no genetical descendants in Europe today... Europe have been re-populated and the last original inhabitants are holoding out in the north east..

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Kalevi Wiik is a crackpot and a laughingstock. Nope. But he is controversial.


His theories have virtually no support amongst anthropologists/linguists anywhere except Finland, Actually, he has very little support in Finland.


and his ideas are actually the lunatic fringe of NE European paleoanthropology and linguistics rather than the accepted mainstream opinion in the field of Uralistics.
Basically he's got the data right, but he has done the wrong conclusions.
The biggest problem is that linguistics alone does not tell how people migrated or did not migrate. For instance, we all wear jeans and communicate in English. But we are not in America?

[Motörhead Remember Me]

I disagree with you, Russians aren't "higher people", who created "everything" in Estonia.

Exactly. These brutalizing low life's ruined everything in Estonia.

For instance, the Baltic peoples were among the tallest in Europe prior to the occupation. As a result of shitty nutrition and hard life, the median length dropped dramatically and the Baltic peoples are now shorter than 70 years ago.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

My friend told me how this Tartar friend and a Finnish lady he introduced him to could communicate a little bit due to the linguistic similarities.



This must be utter rubbish. Turkic may have one or two words that could be recognized but so does Greek and English.

[Osweo]

Ötzi was a true European. He has no genetical descendants in Europe today... Europe have been re-populated
LOL. Can I have some proof of that, please?
I read this on the net somewhere:

Iceman was a body found frozen in the Alps in September 1991. He was taken to Innsbruck University, Forensic Medicine Institute in Innsbruck, Austria. Iceman was found on the Italian side of the Austrian-Italian border, only by a few feet. Anyway, when did Iceman live? The answer is 5,348-5,298 years ago! The DNA tests showed that the Iceman's DNA fit with DNA sequences of Europeans. Iceman's DNA matches DNA sequences of individuals living in the Oetztal Valley and Alpine regions (Handt 1994:1775).

And I suggest you look up Cheddar Man:


Cheddar Man is the name given to the remains of a human male found in Gough's Cave in Cheddar Gorge, Somerset, England. The remains date to approximately 7150 BC, and it appears that he died a violent death. It is Britain’s oldest complete human skeleton.

Mitochondrial DNA testingIn 1996, Bryan Sykes of Oxford University first sequenced the mitochondrial DNA of Cheddar Man, with DNA extracted from one of Cheddar Man's molars. Cheddar Man was determined to have belonged to Haplogroup U5a, a branch of mitochondrial haplogroup U. U5a, the specific haplogroup of Cheddar Man, is known to be the oldest truly modern human (not Neanderthal) mtDNA haplogroup in Europe.
Bryan Sykes' research into Cheddar Man was filmed as he performed it. As a means of connecting Cheddar Man to the living residents of Cheddar village, he compared mitochondrial DNA taken from twenty living residents of the village to that extracted from Cheddar Man’s molar. It produced two exact matches and one match with a single mutation. The two exact matches were schoolchildren, and their names were not released. The close match was a history teacher named Adrian Targett.[1][2]

Sykes argued that this modern connection to Cheddar Man (who died at least three thousand years before agriculture began in Britain) makes credible the theory that modern-day Britons are not all descended from Middle Eastern migratory farmers, but rather modern Britons are descended from ancient European Palaeolithic and Mesolithic hunter-gatherer tribes who much later on adopted farming.[3]
Though it's frustrating that Cheddar Man's Y haplotype seems unknown.

Are you ONLY proposing a MALE European replacement (except in Fennia)?

[Motörhead Remember Me]

"Ötzi have no descendants in Europe today"
http://www.mummytombs.com/otzi/dna.htm
A little fresher look than your 1994 source.

I know the cheddar man. He carried MtDNA that today is most commonly found among Baltic sea populations.

[Osweo]

"Ötzi have no descendants in Europe today"
http://www.mummytombs.com/otzi/dna.htm
A little fresher look than your 1994 source.
So Oetzi is K, one of the European haplotypes. K1ö to be specific...

The mutation could have happened in his grandmother, whose grandchildren all perished or were all men, who knows? Do we have any data on the age of K1ö in Oetzi, or its cladistic relation to other types of K?

And it seems we'll never know his Y chrom, given the propensity for nuclear DNA to collapse after so long. So we have half of the information. Too little to get too excited about. :shrug: And maybe even K1ö IS out there somewhere - not every European has been tested yet!

Still no link with the Finns. Even Jews have K.

I know the cheddar man. He carried MtDNA that today is most commonly found among Finns and Saamis.

U5a? U is found in Berbers, even. It predates the Finnic languages, certainly.
Wiki has this:

Haplogroup U5 and its subclades U5a and U5b form the highest population concentrations in the far north, in Sami, Finns, and Estonians, but it is spread widely at lower levels throughout Europe. This distribution, and the age of the haplogroup, indicate individuals from this haplogroup were part of the initial expansion tracking the retreat of ice sheets from Europe ~10kya.
But be carefull, Finns:

Mitochondrial haplogroup U5a has also been associated with HIV infected individuals displaying accelerated progression to AIDS and death.[13]

:eek:

By the way, as you can see, I'm no expert in this. I'd like to see conflicting data if you have it.