Why didn't Scythians conquer land like Turks and Mongols

[Sky earth]

Considering that Scythians had the same steppe nomad lifestyles like Huns and Mongols, it seems to be that Scythians were more peaceful than Huns and Mongols because chronicles doesn't say anything about Scythians who plundered, conquered and fight against sedentary peoples like the Huns and Mongols did it. Why were Scythians more peaceful than Mongols?

[Scholarios]

Considering that Scythians had the same steppe nomad lifestyles like Huns and Mongols, it seems to be that Scythians were more peaceful than Huns and Mongols because chronicles doesn't say anything about Scythians who plundered, conquered and fight against sedentary peoples like the Huns and Mongols did it. Why were Scythians more peaceful than Mongols?

Actually, I think that the Scythians came to occupy the whole of the area from Xinjang in China to Poland through conquest- it's just conquest that hasn't be written about because it involved preliterate peoples. So it may as well have happened on Mars as far as the Ancient Greeks, Persians, or Chinese were concerned. That place was called the 'Scythian Wilderness' for a reason.

But the Scytians did raid and conquer- Herodotus mentions that Darius' failed campaign in Scythia was in part due to seeking of retribution for a raid into Iran the year before.

Herodotus mentions also several 'races" of Scythians who payed tribute to the nomadic Scythians- most notably the 'Scythian plowers" who lived on the right bank of the Dnieper River- and who modern historians conjecture were possibly the Proto-Slavs. In the 5th and 4th Centuries the Scythians expanded over the Danube and conquered the Thracians there- taking many as slaves. It was only Philip of Macedon who defeated them- I can imagine the Macedondians' shock when the Scythian king- 90 years old Ataes rode into battle against the Greek phalanx. The Scythians and later the Alans and Sarmatians behaved in a similar manner in battle- gaining only booty from dead soldiers or capturing the conqered as slaves.

And of course, the Alans and Sarmatians were great enemies of Rome whose warrior prowess needs no description by me.

[awyr dywyll]

Considering that Scythians had the same steppe nomad lifestyles like Huns and Mongols, it seems to be that Scythians were more peaceful than Huns and Mongols because chronicles doesn't say anything about Scythians who plundered, conquered and fight against sedentary peoples like the Huns and Mongols did it. Why were Scythians more peaceful than Mongols?
I've seen in archaeologic works, some traces of Skythian invasion in Central Europe, and version that they could be involved in destroying of some eastern parts of Urnfield culture local variants.Scythians were able to make some invasion campaigns in Europe, but there not chroniclers to withess it:(
Later,Scythians had not possibilities to move westward because of Celts. The latter moved from Dniester and Prut rivers headwater to south-eastern direction in 3 century BC, and they'd be guilty of Scythian final defeat on lands of Dniepr right bank

[Cleitus]

The Scythians should have eliminate them.

[awyr dywyll]

The Scythians should have eliminate them.
Who?

[Scholarios]

Who?


I assume he/she means the Slavs. However, I guess Ukranian Slavs are probably close genetic and cultural ancestors of Scythians and Sarmatians.

[Anglojew]

Considering that Scythians had the same steppe nomad lifestyles like Huns and Mongols, it seems to be that Scythians were more peaceful than Huns and Mongols because chronicles doesn't say anything about Scythians who plundered, conquered and fight against sedentary peoples like the Huns and Mongols did it. Why were Scythians more peaceful than Mongols?

They did. They existed for at least 1000 years. They even took over huge areas

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Maps/Achaemenid_and_Iranic_Peoples_in_the_Ancient_World .PNG



The Scythians were feared and admired for their prowess in war and, in particular, for their horsemanship. They were among the earliest people to master the art of riding, and their mobility astonished their neighbors. The migration of the Scythians from Asia eventually brought them into the territory of the Cimmerians, who had traditionally controlled the Caucasus and the plains north of the Black Sea. In a war that lasted 30 years, the Scythians destroyed the Cimmerians and set themselves up as rulers of an empire stretching from west Persia through Syria and Judaea to the borders of Egypt. The Medes, who ruled Persia, attacked them and drove them out of Anatolia, leaving them finally in control of lands which stretched from the Persian border north through the Kuban and into southern Russia.

The Scythians were remarkable not only for their fighting ability but also for the civilization they produced. They developed a class of wealthy aristocrats who left elaborate graves filled with richly worked articles of gold and other precious materials. This class of chieftains, the Royal Scyths, finally established themselves as rulers of the southern Russian and Crimean territories. It is there that the richest and most numerous relics of Scythian civilization have been found. Their power was sufficient to repel an invasion by the Persian king Darius I in about 513 BC.

The Royal Scyths were headed by a sovereign whose authority was transmitted to his son. Eventually, around the time of Herodotus, the royal family intermarried with Greeks. In 339 the ruler Ateas was killed at the age of 90 while fighting Philip II of Macedonia. The community was eventually destroyed in the 2nd century BC; Palakus being the last sovereign whose name is preserved in history.

The Scythian army was made up of freemen who received no wage other than food and clothing, but who could share in booty on presentation of the head of a slain enemy. Many warriors wore Greek-style bronze helmets and chain-mail jerkins. Their principal weapon was a double-curved bow and trefoil-shaped arrows; their swords were of the Persian type. Every Scythian had at least one personal mount, but the wealthy owned large herds of horses, chiefly Mongolian ponies. Burial customs were elaborate and called for the sacrifice of members of the dead man's household
Scythian successes

The first sign that steppe nomads had learned to fight well from horseback was a great raid into Asia Minor launched from the Ukraine about 690 BC by a people whom the Greeks called Cimmerians. Some, though perhaps not all, of the raiders were mounted. Not long thereafter, tribes speaking an Iranian language, which the Greeks called Scythians, conquered the Cimmerians and in turn became lords of the Ukraine. According to Herodotus, who is the principal source of information on these events, the Scyths (or at least some of them) claimed to have migrated from the Altai Mountains at the eastern extreme of the Western Steppe. This may well be so, and some modern scholars have even surmised that the barbarian invasions of China that brought the Western Chou dynasty to an end in 771 BC may have been connected with a Scythian raid from the Altai that had occurred a generation or two before Scythian migration westward to the Ukraine.

The Eastern Steppe was, however, too barren and cold for invaders to linger. Consequently, the spread of cavalry skills and of the horse nomads' way of life to Mongolia took several centuries. We know this from Chinese records clearly showing that cavalry raids from the Mongolian steppe became chronic only in the 4th century BC. China was then divided among warring states, and border principalities had to convert to cavalry tactics in order to mount successful defenses. The first state to do so developed its cavalry force only after 325 BC.

Long before then, however, the Scythians had erected a loose confederacy that spanned all of the Western Steppe. The high king of the tribe heading this confederacy presumably had only limited control over the far reaches of the Western Steppe. But on special occasions the Scythians could assemble large numbers of horsemen for long-distance raids, such as the one that helped to bring the Assyrian Empire to an end. After sacking the Assyrian capital of Nineveh in 612 BC, the booty-laden Scyths returned to the Ukrainian steppe, leaving Medes, Babylonians, and Egyptians to dispute the Assyrian heritage. But the threat of renewed raids from the north remained and constituted a standing problem for rulers of the Middle East thereafter.

http://history-world.org/scythians.htm

Their ruling class even ruled the Khazars and they themselves were absorbed into several different peoples and nationalities.

I myself am a descendant.

[Anglojew]

I should mention they Sarmatians were probably a Scythian (Iranic)-Turkic blend.

[awyr dywyll]

I assume he/she means the Slavs. However, I guess Ukranian Slavs are probably close genetic and cultural ancestors of Scythians and Sarmatians.
Yes, one of the components of future Slavs were Scythians, especially Scythians-tillers, but not the only. There're so many migration waves later :)

[Scholarios]

I should mention they Sarmatians were probably a Scythian (Iranic)-Turkic blend.

Interesting- why do you say that? Sarmatians settled as far as French Normandy (as Alans). It'd be kind of good bait for Pan-Turanists. As they already are for Pan-Slavists and Nordicists. What is it about these guys thats so appealing?



Long after they seemingly disappeared from history, the Sarmatians retained significance in the European imagination. In the seventeenth century, most members of the Polish nobility convinced themselves that they had descended not from the Slavic tribes that had given rise to their nation’s peasantry, but rather from the Sarmatians; as a result, they widely adopted modes of dress and manners that they associated with this ancient group. The resulting style, called “Sarmatism,” remained influential until the 1800s and has not completely disappeared. In its modern guise, however, the movement has been widened, with various central and eastern European nationalists claiming Sarmatian ancestry for their entire societies. Neo-Nazis also look back to the group; a “Sarmatians” image-search on the internet yields numerous links to the infamous Stormfront website.

The Sarmatian hold on their grassland home was apparently lost to others in the fourth century. It was around this time that certain Sarmatian groups became known to history as the Alans. From the west, the Germanic Ostrogoths moved into the steppes and took up a largely equestrian way of life, while the Huns invaded from the east, threatening Sarmatians and Ostrogoths alike. Pastoral polities of the time, however, were often quite fluid, allowing peoples of different language groups to join together, whether in semi-institutionalized confederacies or mere armed aggregations of coercion or convenience. A few Alan groups evidently joined the Huns, but most fled west into Europe to avoid domination. They moved not as a single people, however, but in numerous contingents, many of which attached themselves to the Germanic tribes that were also fleeing the Huns into the dying Western Roman Empire. Some Alans allied with the (Germanic) Burgundians to establish a strong presence in Gaul. Others moved into the Iberian Peninsula, ruling over a short-lived Alanic kingdom in the early 400s. Many more joined forces with the Vandals, accompanying them in their invasion of Roman North Africa in 429 CE.

The various Alan groups that moved into the Roman world in the late 300s and early 400s did not maintain their language or identity for long. In most cases, they merged with the more tightly unified Germanic peoples and were eventually subsumed into the general populations of the areas in which they settled. They did leave marks, however, as suggested by numerous place names along the lines of “Alainville.” They also seem to have figured prominently in the development of the medieval ideals of chivalry.

If C. Scott Littleton and Linda Malcor are to be believed, the cultural legacy of the Alans in Europe was profound. In a fascinating and controversial book entitled From Scythia to Camelot: A Radical Reassessment of the Legends of King Arthur, the Knights of the Round Table, and the Holy Grail (Arthurian Characters and Themes), Littleton and Malcor argue that most of the Arthurian corpus derives from the stories and myths of the Alans. Although criticized for downplaying the Celtic aspects of the legends, Littleton and Malcor present abundant evidence leading back to the Alans. Guinevere, they allow, was a Celtic figure, but Lancelot and many others seem to have a Sarmatian origin. As they show, the north Caucasus’s own epic writings, the Nart Sagas, bear a curious resemblance to the Arthurian stories, abounding in magical swords and supernatural chalices.




http://geocurrents.info/historical-geography/from-sarmatia-to-alania-to-ossetia-the-land-of-the-iron-people

[Anglojew]

I assume he/she means the Slavs. However, I guess Ukranian Slavs are probably close genetic and cultural ancestors of Scythians and Sarmatians.

Many of the Slavs are probably descended but there are various other descendants.

The Ossetians directly. The Khazars were probably Samartian in my opinion. The Jats and others claim descent from the Saka Scythians. Some Hungarians claim partial descent as do some Scots (although that is probably mythical).


There's various middle-eastern descendants and some Jews as well

http://hal_macgregor.tripod.com/gregor/Scythia.jpg

[Cleitus]

Who?
The Turks and the Mongols.

[Ulla]

Who are the contemporary descendants of the Scythians?

[Anglojew]

Interesting- why do you say that? Sarmatians settled as far as French Normandy (as Alans). It'd be kind of good bait for Pan-Turanists. As they already are for Pan-Slavists and Nordicists. What is it about these guys thats so appealing?





http://geocurrents.info/historical-geography/from-sarmatia-to-alania-to-ossetia-the-land-of-the-iron-people

I've been researching them (Scythians) for a while. I think Herodotus alludes to it somewhere here; http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_herodotus_4.htm

It explains many things including ancient descriptions, the fact they're depicted as darker whereas Scythians are depicted as blonde, as well as genetics and geography.

[Anglojew]

Interesting- why do you say that? Sarmatians settled as far as French Normandy (as Alans). It'd be kind of good bait for Pan-Turanists. As they already are for Pan-Slavists and Nordicists. What is it about these guys thats so appealing?





http://geocurrents.info/historical-geography/from-sarmatia-to-alania-to-ossetia-the-land-of-the-iron-people

Oh yeah I forgot the Poles. There is definitely evidence for some of the Polish elite being of Sarmatian descent.

[Anglojew]

Who are the contemporary descendants of the Scythians?

Linguistically the Ossetians. Genetically probably much of Eurasia.

[Ulla]

Linguistically the Ossetians. Genetically probably much of Eurasia.

Thanks.

[Sky earth]

They did. They existed for at least 1000 years. They even took over huge areas

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Maps/Achaemenid_and_Iranic_Peoples_in_the_Ancient_World .PNG

The ruling class of Khazars were Ashina Türks and not Scythians


http://history-world.org/scythians.htm

Their ruling class even ruled the Khazars and they themselves were absorbed into several different peoples and nationalities.

I myself am a descendant.

Khazars were Oghur Turks and the ruling elite were descendants of Ashina Türks. They were of course mixed with Scythians but they were ethnically still Turkic.

[CordedWhelp]

Scythians=Proto-Turks/Mongols

(lol...just trying to stir the pot, is all...)

[Kiyant]

I think almost all of the Eurasian steppe today are partly descendants of the Scythians be it Slavs or Turkics

[Sky earth]

I think almost all of the Eurasian steppe today are partly descendants of the Scythians be it Slavs or Turkics

Turkic peoples are the cultural descendants of Scythians and also genetically to a certain degree

[War Chef]

Because Turkic culture was direct spawn from Siberian taiga wilderness, lifestyle of hunter-gatherers, they view humans as commodities like the sheep they butcher, which is why they had no moral dilemma doing genocide. You can kill 100 cows you can kill 100 humans.

[Äijä]

There are historical mentions of them reaching the Baltic, Gulf of Finland has been called the Scythian Gulf is some sources.

[Sky earth]

Because Turkic culture was direct spawn from Siberian taiga wilderness, lifestyle of hunter-gatherers, they view humans as commodities like the sheep they butcher, which is why they had no moral dilemma doing genocide. You can kill 100 cows you can kill 100 humans.

Wrong in many levels. Turks were equestrian pastoralists from the steppes of Eurasia

[Anglojew]

Khazars were Oghur Turks and the ruling elite were descendants of Ashina Türks. They were of course mixed with Scythians but they were ethnically still Turkic.

The Ashina clan actually were Scythians originally. There's is some confusion about this today. This is why I'm sure the Khazars were a Sarmatian group.

[Proto-Shaman]

Linguistically the Ossetians. Genetically probably much of Eurasia.
Amazingly, it is universally accepted in the Indo-European scientific world that the Ossetian language, with 80% non Indo-European lexicon, 100% non Indo-European grammar and 100% non Indo-European morphology, is unquestionably an Indo-European language.

And so the Scythians, and later their linguistic kins Sarmatians, and specifically one of the Sarmatian tribes, the Alans, spoke an Iranian language akin to the uniquely opposed to the all Indo-European languages Ossetian language, which itself consists of 80% of non Indo-European lexicon. A lovely deduction, isn't it? Go figure that mechanics.

[Proto-Shaman]

Scythians=Proto-Turks/Mongols

(lol...just trying to stir the pot, is all...)
U're welcome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanid_race

[Proto-Shaman]

Because Turkic culture was direct spawn from Siberian taiga wilderness, lifestyle of hunter-gatherers, they view humans as commodities like the sheep they butcher, which is why they had no moral dilemma doing genocide. You can kill 100 cows you can kill 100 humans.
A former, legendary, king of the Turks is supposed to have said: 'The Turk is like a pearl (dur) in its shell at the bottom of the sea, when it is worth nothing; but when it comes out of its shell, and out of the sea, it becomes valuable and adorns the crown of kings and the neck and ears of brides'. [Ibid., p. 37.]

[Anglojew]

Another territory the Scythians ruled;

http://drakenberg.weebly.com/uploads/6/7/4/7/6747442/3682997.jpg?503

[Anglojew]

Amazingly, it is universally accepted in the Indo-European scientific world that the Ossetian language, with 80% non Indo-European lexicon, 100% non Indo-European grammar and 100% non Indo-European morphology, is unquestionably an Indo-European language.

And so the Scythians, and later their linguistic kins Sarmatians, and specifically one of the Sarmatian tribes, the Alans, spoke an Iranian language akin to the uniquely opposed to the all Indo-European languages Ossetian language, which itself consists of 80% of non Indo-European lexicon. A lovely deduction, isn't it? Go figure that mechanics.

The Scythians and Turks intermingled creating the Sarmatians, Khazars etc.

[Raven_]

There are historical mentions of them reaching the Baltic, Gulf of Finland has been called the Scythian Gulf is some sources.

You must be talking about Sarmatia, not Scythia.


From the 2nd century AD, Roman authors saw the lands between the Rhine and the Vistula rivers as Germania. East of the Vistula was classed as Sarmatia. The 2nd-century geographer Ptolemy makes that boundary clear.

The Baltic Sea was called Sarmatian Sea.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00maplinks/mughal/porro1598/europe08sarmatia.jpg

Scythia was located eastwards from Sarmatia. See here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia)

[Äijä]

You must be talking about Sarmatia, not Scythia.



The Baltic Sea was called Sarmatian Sea.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00maplinks/mughal/porro1598/europe08sarmatia.jpg

Scythia was located eastwards from Sarmatia. See here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia)

Yep, my mixup. But in some maps the Arctic sea around Kola peninsula is also Scythian or Sarmatian sea, it is all very confusing and everyone thinking they know fo sure who is who.

[Anglojew]

Yep, my mixup. But in some maps the Arctic sea around Kola peninsula is also Scythian or Sarmatian sea, it is all very confusing and everyone thinking they know fo sure who is who.


Pliny the Elder wrote that they ranged from the Vistula River (now in Poland) to the Danube.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

[Äijä]

Anyways it reminded about this discussion, just putting it here, no need for any Balto-Slavic assault. ;)


Could you open up a little bit more this theory that VL29 origin is near the finnish bay area? That would mean that about 40% of the Lithuanian population would have come from the north. VL29+ frequency in population decreasing from Lithuania northward. Lithuania 42%, Latvia 38%, Estonia 34% , Finland < 25%. Estonia have probably also some VL29- N1C1 so it is less than 34%.


Frequency is a bad tell for the origin of a haplogroup. The Balt N1c1s are plentiful but almost exclusively L1025+ and dys19=15, all other VL29+ lines, including at least two L1025+ lines, several L550+ lines, all L1022+ lines and the CTS3451 line are represented in the North. This is a strong indication that VL29 was present there before and expanded from between the Finnish Bay Area and the Upper Volga.

However, this does not mean that the Lithuanians and the Latvians came from the north, the lack of other types of N1C1 probably means that a small group of L1025 lived in Southern Balticum when the expansion of the current population began.

There is some very interesting facts about the N1c1 spread in Europe which are rarely mentioned. Firstly it expands successfully from the East, even into Scandinavia, this is rare because no known migrations or invasions happened into Scandinavia after the Stone Age. Secondly, the expansion stops for some reason at the Vistula river and then reverses to the East. Thirdly, the different subgroup of European N1c1 has a very local spread which is a telltale of in sito growth, the likely cause for this is local 'agricultural revolution'.

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=1506&sid=a85ab9585334ca1c6d0edb9e1ded6505&start=10

[Sky earth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

Do you know about the Turcae?

During the first century CE., Pomponius Mela refers to the "Turcae" in the forests north of the Sea of Azov, and Pliny the Elder lists the "Tyrcae" among the people of the same area.[35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples

[Anglojew]

Do you know about the Turcae?

During the first century CE., Pomponius Mela refers to the "Turcae" in the forests north of the Sea of Azov, and Pliny the Elder lists the "Tyrcae" among the people of the same area.[35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples

Yes, might be Turks or might not. Is there archaeological evidence etc?

It might just be a group with a similar name.

[blogen]

The original and the conquered lands of the Scythians, Sarmatians and their direct descendants (Kushans, Alanians, etc.):

http://s27.postimg.org/d07ppc9ib/scytsarm.jpg

[Anglojew]

The original and the conquered lands of the Scythians, Sarmatians and their direct descendants (Kushans, Alanians, etc.):

http://s27.postimg.org/d07ppc9ib/scytsarm.jpg

Great map. Massive expanse.

[Raven_]

Anyways it reminded about this discussion, just putting it here, no need for any Balto-Slavic assault. ;
http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=1506&sid=a85ab9585334ca1c6d0edb9e1ded6505&start=10


Is it really that surprising?

Ancient authors called whole Eastern Europe Sarmatia, because they didn't knew much about it all to begin with. They knew East of Vistula was inhabited by tribes who used non-Germanic languages. Sarmatians were simply non Germanic people in Eastern Europe.

East of Vistula has never been inhabited by Germanic people. There is known no Baltic-Germanic transitional language either. Genetic traces of a lack of continuity between these two groups are not surprising. The role of Slavs around Northern Vistula is highly speculative, in my opinion.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

The original and the conquered lands of the Scythians, Sarmatians and their direct descendants (Kushans, Alanians, etc.):

http://s27.postimg.org/d07ppc9ib/scytsarm.jpg

Sarmatians only went to Sardinia sent as Slaves by the Romans:
Come di consuetudine, anche in Sardegna i romani deportarono un consistente numero di schiavi che venivano utilizzati principalmente per lavorare nei latifondi. Queste genti provenivano anche da posti molto lontani, sia geograficamente che culturalmente, come dimostrato, ad esempio, dalla recente scoperta di alcune tombe sarmatiche all'interno della necropoli di Pill'è Matta a Quartucciu; è stato ipotizzato che questi sarmati furono condotti sull'isola dai romani per migliorare la coltivazione della vite[10].

[ButlerKing]

I assume he/she means the Slavs. However, I guess Ukranian Slavs are probably close genetic and cultural ancestors of Scythians and Sarmatians.

I doubt it. Genetic shows Scythians are most closest to Uralic, Tatars. Even Before the time they started conquered they were already like 20% Mongoloid.


Scythians were mixture of (4/5 Caucasoid )West Asian + European, with 1/5 Mongoloid.

[ButlerKing]

Who are the contemporary descendants of the Scythians?

There is no descendants of Scythians. Ossetian claim to be descendant yet they lack their haplogroup.
Scythian blood may run in Central Asian Turks and some northwest Indian but that's it.

In addition to Scythians being 20% Mongoloid their caucasoid component were already a mixture of west Asian/European. Their most likely not related with European.

Don't forget their language is Iranic and they came from Central Asia, I seriously oppose the idea they were like slavs. If they were blond hair caucasians than the blond Iranic like the Pamiri and Tajiks not slav.

[ButlerKing]

The Scythians and Turks intermingled creating the Sarmatians, Khazars etc.

it's already mentioned that It has been estimated that from 25 to 28 distinct ethnic groups made up the population of the Khazar Qağanate.

Why would Khazars be only Scythians or Turks?


Exhumation of Khazar skulls.

" Studies of the physical remains, such as skulls at Sarkel, have revealed a mixture of Slavic, European, and a few Mongolian types.[76] "

[Scholarios]

I doubt it. Genetic shows Scythians are most closest to Uralic, Tatars. Even Before the time they started conquered they were already like 20% Mongoloid.


Scythians were mixture of (4/5 Caucasoid )West Asian + European, with 1/5 Mongoloid.

Yeah. A Scythian in West China is not a Scythian in Caucasus.

[ButlerKing]

Yeah. A Scythian in West China is not a Scythian in Caucasus.

Lol Scythian in Caucasus was also Mongoloid admix:picard2:

They found Scythian skulls in Rostov , European Russia.

Besides..... so far every Iranic from the central Asia were mongoloid admixture including the Wusun, Sarmatian, Pazyryk culture. No one should argue with anthropology.

[blogen]

Yeah. A Scythian in West China is not a Scythian in Caucasus.

Yes, and we do not have ancient sample from the Kuban Scythians and later Sarmatians/Alans, so maybe that the Alanians had typical North Caucasian genetic characters in the antiquity already than the Ossetians now.

[ButlerKing]

Yes, and we do not have ancient sample from the Kuban Scythians and later Sarmatians/Alans, so maybe that the Alanians had typical North Caucasian genetic characters in the antiquity already than the Ossetians now.

I think Alans were pure Caucasoid if they were from Caucasus but didn't come from Central Asia.

However every Iranic that came from Central Asia were surprisingly more Mongoloid than you think. For example the Wusun who were described with European like features were mostly mix, I doubt they don't have nothing to do with those blonde Afghans pseudo-European looking people.


Ethnicity

According to Chinese archaeologists, the excavated skeletal remains of a people presumed to be the Wusun are of the short-headed Europoid Central Asian interfluvial type.[51] On the basis of six skulls from the first century BC/AD found at Semirech'e (Zhetysu), J.P. Mallory and Victor Mair presumes those to be of the Wusun, where Soviet archaeologists have described them ranging from primarily Europoid with some Mongoloid admixture to pure Europeans.[52]

[Scholarios]

Lol Scythian in Caucasus was also Mongoloid admix:picard2:

They found Scythian skulls in Rostov , European Russia.

Besides..... so far every Iranic from the central Asia were mongoloid admixture including the Wusun, Sarmatian, Pazyryk culture. No one should argue with anthropology.

Yeah. I can find Russian even with this admixture.. he's got blonde hair and looks like Dolph Lungren. Some Finns too. Whatever. Scythians were just Scythians... steppe culture with Iranian language. They were as diverse as another huge population in history. You don't need to make them just pure Japanese or whatever.

[ButlerKing]

Yeah. I can find Russian even with this admixture.. he's got blonde hair and looks like Dolph Lungren. Some Finns too. Whatever. Scythians were just Scythians... steppe culture with Iranian language. They were as diverse as another huge population in history. You don't need to make them just pure Japanese or whatever.

I just speak facts. You should read facts before guessing. The truth can be surprising.

Scythians would have had much more Mongoloid DNA than them if they were even willing to say Europoid-Mongoloid.


Properly they were something like 3/4 to 4/5 Europoid to 1/5 to 1/4 Mongoloid


Cephalic index of some Iranian population from the Eurasian steppe:

3-1th century BC Scythians, Kamenka culture - Maslyakha, Altai krai:
men: 82
women: 80,2
all brachycephals
Racial type: Europo-Mongoloids, Protoeuropid (Cromagnoid) mixed with warious Mongoloid elements
source: М. П. Рыкун: МАТЕРИАЛЫ ПО КРАНИОЛОГИИ НАСЕЛЕНИЯ СЕВЕРНОГО АЛТАЯ РАННЕГО ЖЕЛЕЗНОГО ВЕКА (каменская культура) (http://www.ipdn.ru/rics/va/_private/a2/2-ryk.pdf)

3-2th centuy BC Scythians, Kamenka culture - Upper Ob basin:
men: 79,8
women: 81,4
few mesocephals with mostly brachycephals
Racial type: Europo-Mongoloids, Protoeuropid mixed with warious Mongoloid elements
source: М. П. Рыкун: Краниологические материалы из могильника каменской культуры Новотроицкое-1 (http://www.ipdn.ru/rics/va/_private/a4/2-ryk.pdf)

4-3th century BC, Sarmatians - Chemaya, Kardailovo, Orenburg oblast:
the reamins: 75,9, 83,9, 90,3, 83,4, 85,4, 85,5, 82,8, 84,1
average: 83,9
1 dolichocephal, 6 brachycephals, 1 extreme brachycephal
Racial type: almost Europid Europo-Mongoloids. (The brachycephals were Protoeuropid, but this is not from this study.)
source: А. Н. Багашев: МАТЕРИАЛЫ К КРАНИОЛОГИИ САРМАТОВ (http://www.ipdn.ru/rics/va/_private/a1/2-bag.pdf)

6-3th century Scythians - Lower Don region:
men: 81,4 (min: 71,5, max: 95,3)
women: 84,9 (min: 77, max: 95)
basically brachycephals with some mesocephal elements and few dolichocephal
Racial type: mostly clear Europids with some Europo-Mongoloids
source: Е.Ф. Батиева Население нижнего Дона (палеоантропологическое исследование) (http://ssc-ras.ru/files/files/Batieva%20mono1.pdf)

5th century BC Scythians - fortified settlement Semiluki, Voronezh Oblast
men: 86,7
women: 75,7
mainly brachycephal men and mesocephal women
Racial type: dominantly Europids with an Europo-Mongoloid component (~20%)
source: Ефимов К.Ю. Население Семилукского городища скифского времени (по антропологическим материалам) (http://www.history.vspu.ac.ru/files/2002.pdf)

Scythians - Cheremushne, Kharkov oblast
67,34 78,45 73,33
dolichocephalic, 2 mesocephalic
Racial types: Euroids, mixed clear Europid, maybe Balto-Scythian population, dominantly non Scythian origin elements from the forest zone, fundamentally differs from the European steppic samples.
source: Бондаренко В.Л., Буйнов Ю.В., Гречко Д.С. АНТРОПОЛОГИЧЕСКИЕ МАТЕРИАЛЫ ИЗ КУРГАНОВ СКИФСКОГО ПЕРИОДА У С.ЧЕРЕМУШНОЕ НА ХАРЬКОВЩИНЕ (http://www.archaeology.ru/Download/Bondarenko/Bondarenko_2007_Antropologicheskije.pdf)





Scythians were predominately Europoid with small to some Mongoloid admixture.


The Scythian King himself was Turanid and had substantial Mongoloid admixture for sure.

http://img15.nnm.ru/a/7/4/5/d/c43dbac60db7b9490a6cba808c5.jpg

[blogen]

I think Alans were pure Caucasoid if they were from Caucasus didn't come from Central Asia.

They lived in the Caucasus, but a part of their ancestors came from Central Asia.


However every Iranic that came from Central Asia were surprisingly more Mongoloid than you think. For example the Wusun who were described with European like features were mostly mix, I doubt they don't have nothing to do with those blonde Afghans pseudo-European looking people.

Less Mongoloid in Europe.

ancient Scythians in Altay: majority were Europo-Mongoloid with a significant Europid minority.
ancient Sakas in Central Asia: majority were Europid with a significant Europo-Mongoloid minority.
ancient Scythians in Europe: majority were Europid with a small Europo-Mongoloid minority.
ancient Sarmatians in Europe: majority were Europid with a small Europo-Mongoloid minority.

But I collect the accurate data once soon.


The Scythian King himself was Turanid and had substantial Mongoloid admixture for sure.
http://img15.nnm.ru/a/7/4/5/d/c43dbac60db7b9490a6cba808c5.jpg

Clear Caucasoid.


Cephalic index of some Iranian population from the Eurasian steppe:

This was my comment few days ago.

[ButlerKing]

They lived in the Caucasus, but a part of their ancestors came from Central Asia.



Less Mongoloid in Europe.

ancient Scythians in Altay: majority were Europo-Mongoloid with a significant Europid minority.
ancient Sakas in Central Asia: majority were Europid with a significant Europo-Mongoloid minority.
ancient Scythians in Europe: majority were Europid with a small Europo-Mongoloid minority.
ancient Sarmatians in Europe: majority were Europid with a small Europo-Mongoloid minority.

But I collect the accurate data once soon.


Are you talking about ancient Scythians ( before expanded ) or Ancient scythians ( who expanded later ). I mean from the 4th century BC to 7th century BC, they so called Scythians were no longer as pure as they were before.

[blogen]

Are you talking about ancient Scythians ( before expanded ) or Ancient scythians ( who expanded later ). I mean from the 4th century BC to 7th century BC, they so called Scythians were no longer as pure as they were before.

Of course same time, before the fall of the European Scythians (by the Sarmatians) around 3-4th century BC.

[ButlerKing]

Clear Caucasoid.



I doubt it. You can tell there is something different about his eyes and cheeks compared with other reconstruction of Scythian.


I'm willing to bet Rob Shneider who is 1/4 Filipino is more Caucasoid than that skull

http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Hollywood/2013/10/09/schneider/Rob%20Schneider.jpg

[blogen]

I doubt it. You can tell there is something different about his eyes and cheeks compared with other reconstruction of Scythian.

His cheekbone is rounded and not flat based on the reconstruction:

http://www.peshera.org/khrono/Fotos-08/foto-114.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

The original and the conquered lands of the Scythians, Sarmatians and their direct descendants (Kushans, Alanians, etc.):

http://s27.postimg.org/d07ppc9ib/scytsarm.jpg
Royal Kushans were Turkic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanishka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huvishka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turushka

[blogen]

Royal Kushans were Turkic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanishka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huvishka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turushka

In a pan-Turkic dream maybe.

[Proto-Shaman]

The Scythians and Turks intermingled creating the Sarmatians, Khazars etc.
That part is true because there is a Irano-Sarmatian substratum in the Turkic languages of Volga area. But Indo-Scythians were possibly also a blend of Turko-Iranians.

[Proto-Shaman]

In a pan-Turkic dream maybe.
Oh honey, the only dream is you here :bored:

[ButlerKing]

His cheekbone is rounded and not flat based on the reconstruction:

http://www.peshera.org/khrono/Fotos-08/foto-114.jpg

Are you sure they aren't two different people?

Yours is a sculpture of Skillur I doubt that's accurate

He looks more caucasoid in this but still more mongoloid than yours

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/Skillur_Scythian_King.jpg

[blogen]

Are you sure they aren't two different people?
Yours is a sculpture of Skillur I doubt that's accurate
He looks more caucasoid in this but still more mongoloid than yours

This is same reconstruction. :picard2:

And there is not metisation without flat face.

[ButlerKing]

In a pan-Turkic dream maybe.


I don't believe Scythians were Turkic but I do think they were more like Tajiks and Pamiris, and these groups apparently have 13 - 28.9% Mongoloid admixture which isn't surprising since it's central Asia after all. Anyway it's hard to know if he is pure caucasoid or just a very caucasoid looking europoid-mongoloid. Or is one of those of Eurasian celebrities who can look full asian to half asian or from half caucasian to full caucasian because that happens a lot ( hence some reconstruction of his face look more mongoloid than others)


Anyway Judging from the Y-DNA and especially mtDNA of Scythians, I doubt they are anything but pure.
#
For example Parys Sylver being 1/4 Asian would mistake anyone for being pure white in Europe


http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire2/c2978b7b55ce9f20e8041fae67b4bdba1320216595_full.jp g
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3021/2502/1600/trevor.0.jpg


See even this 1/3 Asian kid makes me think these are what Scythians and Kipchaks could have looked like


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7207/6890617691_b6c4b83bd4.jpg

[Anglojew]

That part is true because there is a Irano-Sarmatian substratum in the Turkic languages of Volga area. But Indo-Scythians were possibly also a blend of Turko-Iranians.

Yes. It's hard or know where the line between the two is. Many ancien groups seem to have been a blend between the two like the Bulgars (as well as Khazars and others mentioned before).


The Bulgars (also Bolgars, Bulghars, Proto-Bulgarians, Huno-Bulgars) were a semi-nomadic Turkic people who flourished in the Pontic Steppe and the Volga basin in the 7th century AD. Ethnically, the Bulgars are thought to have been Oghur Turkic, with Scytho-Sarmatian and Sarmatian-Alan elements.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars

[Anglojew]

I don't believe Scythians were Turkic but I do think they were more like Tajiks and Pamiris, and these groups apparently have 13 - 28.9% Mongoloid admixture which isn't surprising since it's central Asia after all. Anyway it's hard to know if he is pure caucasoid or just a very caucasoid looking europoid-mongoloid. Or is one of those of Eurasian celebrities who can look full asian to half asian or from half caucasian to full caucasian because that happens a lot ( hence some reconstruction of his face look more mongoloid than others)


Anyway Judging from the Y-DNA and especially mtDNA of Scythians, I doubt they are anything but pure.
#
For example Parys Sylver being 1/4 Asian would mistake anyone for being pure white in Europe


http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire2/c2978b7b55ce9f20e8041fae67b4bdba1320216595_full.jp g
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3021/2502/1600/trevor.0.jpg


See even this 1/3 Asian kid makes me think these are what Scythians and Kipchaks could have looked like


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7207/6890617691_b6c4b83bd4.jpg

They were not Turkic originally but intermarried with Turkic groups overtime (at least the eastern ones eg Sarmatians).

[Proto-Shaman]

Yes. It's hard or know where the line between the two is. Many ancien groups seem to have been a blend between the two like the Bulgars (as well as Khazars and others mentioned before).

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars
This is true, but in the current western Scythian research, even if you use the term "Turk" it is connected with "subhuman-like" East Asians who corrupted "noble" Caucasoids Scytho-Aryans. This would at least explain why internet junkies insult Turks as "subhuman-like" Mongols, despite Turks are mainly of south Siberian Caucasoid stock (see Turanid racial type).

[Anglojew]

This is true, but in the current western Scythian research, even if you use the term "Turk" it is connected with "subhuman-like" East Asians who corrupted "noble" Caucasoids Scytho-Aryans. This would at least explain why internet junkies insult Turks as "subhuman-like" Mongols, despite Turks are mainly of Caucasoid stock (see Turanid racial type).

The Turks were originally a type of Mongaloid or proto-mongoloid (Siberid probably), ancient texts say related to Mongols. The caucasoid element in Turks is from Scythians and other Iranic peoples (except in Turkey itself who are probably more Turkified Byzantines).

[random]

They did. They existed for at least 1000 years. They even took over huge areas

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Maps/Achaemenid_and_Iranic_Peoples_in_the_Ancient_World .PNG




http://history-world.org/scythians.htm

Their ruling class even ruled the Khazars and they themselves were absorbed into several different peoples and nationalities.

I myself am a descendant.

This area wasn't a united kingdom or a confederation. They failed to create massive Tribal confederations like the Turkic and Mongol ones.

[Illancha]

This post is mostly speculation, but I think it's worth considering.

Chechens of the past referred to a people called Sharmatoi (Sher in Chechen means wide and vast, mat means place/area, -oi is the plural suffix denoting a people). They were a people of Caucasian origin who descended from the mountains and lived in the plains to the North of the Caucasus. Does it not make sense that those are the Sarmatians? The Greek name for them was Sarmatai and considering that Greek does not have a "sh" sound, I personally think it's quite likely that the Greeks got the name not first hand, but through second hand accounts.

[Proto-Shaman]

The Turks were originally a type of Mongaloid or proto-mongoloid (Siberid probably), ancient texts say related to Mongols. The caucasoid element in Turks is from Scythians and other Iranic peoples (except in Turkey itself who are probably more Turkified Byzantines).
Sorry, this runs out of reality now. Really, sorry. That's simply hardcore UNSCIENTIFIC and UNHISTORICAL hypocrisy. Thats even so bad, that I don't know how to call it other way.

[War Chef]

Wrong in many levels. Turks were equestrian pastoralists from the steppes of Eurasia

Kid, what do you think proto-Turks were doing for livelihood before they were introduced to horses and wheels? P.S. Before answering, remove your Turan propaganda helmet, you are only a milder version of Kipchak_Hakan.


Rich settlement and burial evidence from the Baikal/Angara region in Central Siberia provides one of the most promising opportunities in the global boreal forest for studying Holocene foragers. The Neolithic and Early Bronze Age prehistory of the region is known to western scholars only through a few English translations of the works of A. P. Okladnikov. Since the publication of Okladnikov's model, the region has witnessed large-scale archaeological fieldwork that has produced abundant quantities of new evidence. Moreover, the model has been partly invalidated by extensive radiocarbon dating. Research advances over the last couple of decades have augmented the area's previous reputation but have also revealed the need for new theoretical perspectives and modern analytical techniques.

The neolithic and early bronze age of the Lake Baikal Region: A review of recent research
(http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02221004)

[Proto-Shaman]

Kid, what do you think proto-Turks were doing for livelihood before they were introduced to horses and wheels?
They were agriculturalists of course.


P.S. Before answering, remove your Turan propaganda helmet, you are only a milder version of Kipchak_Hakan.
Thanks for this compliment :tongue

[Nehellenia]

Didn't they use to behead their enemies often and use their heads as drinking cups and trophies? I'm sure they were quite a brutal and capable fighting people in more ways than one, Scythians lived on horseback and were known marksman and renowned fighters, similar in part to Turks and Mongols of the time period ;)

[Anglojew]

Sorry, this runs out of reality now. Really, sorry. That's simply hardcore UNSCIENTIFIC and UNHISTORICAL hypocrisy. Thats even so bad, that I don't know how to call it other way.

Sorry if the truth hurts

[Proto-Shaman]

Sorry if the truth hurts
No, but it's your convalescent ignorance which hurts.

[Anglojew]

No, but it's your convalescent ignorance which hurts.

Disprove my contention then

[Sky earth]

Kid, what do you think proto-Turks were doing for livelihood before they were introduced to horses and wheels? P.S. Before answering, remove your Turan propaganda helmet, you are only a milder version of Kipchak_Hakan.

Stupid post. Every Proto-people lived as nomads or hunter gatherers before the agricultural revolution came including Slavs


The neolithic and early bronze age of the Lake Baikal Region: A review of recent research
(http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02221004)

[Scholarios]

This post is mostly speculation, but I think it's worth considering.

Chechens of the past referred to a people called Sharmatoi (Sher in Chechen means wide and vast, mat means place/area, -oi is the plural suffix denoting a people). They were a people of Caucasian origin who descended from the mountains and lived in the plains to the North of the Caucasus. Does it not make sense that those are the Sarmatians? The Greek name for them was Sarmatai and considering that Greek does not have a "sh" sound, I personally think it's quite likely that the Greeks got the name not first hand, but through second hand accounts.

I found it most interesting that Chechen uses the same suffix for people as Greek. As far as Saurmatians goes, it seems any etymology is as good as the next- though yours is intriguing.

[random]

They were busy scything.

[Proto-Shaman]

Disprove my contention then
Well, yes, anthropology, what else: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanid_race

or simply Mongoloid Caucasoids of Mesolithic (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/Chikisheva/ChikishevaTASSiberianMesolithEn.htm).

[War Chef]

Stupid post. Every Proto-people lived as nomads or hunter gatherers before the agricultural revolution came including Slavs


Kid, you're stubborn as hell.

[Anglojew]

Well, yes, anthropology, what else: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanid_race

or simply Mongoloid Caucasoids of Mesolithic (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/Chikisheva/ChikishevaTASSiberianMesolithEn.htm).

Even the first link itself says it's obsolete.

The second link is about Eastern Europe. Nothing to do with Turks during that time period.

[blogen]

Even the first link itself says it's obsolete.

What obsolate? :D

[Proto-Shaman]

Even the first link itself says it's obsolete.
No, it doesn't. Can you speak English? Read again.


The second link is about Eastern Europe. Nothing to do with Turks during that time period.
Neolithic Proto-Turkic speakers of Central-South-West Siberia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Turkic_language = i.e. inter alia, Mongoloid Caucasoids of Mesolithic. It's that simple.

[Anglojew]

No, it doesn't. Can you speak English? Read again.


Neolithic Proto-Turkic speakers of Central-South-West Siberia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Turkic_language = i.e. inter alia, Mongoloid Caucasoids of Mesolithic. It's that simple.


1. First sentence of your first link;


Turanid race, or South Siberian race,[1][2] is an anthropological term, originally intended to cover populations of Central Asia and Kazakhstan associated with the spread of the Turanian languages (a now obsolete term), which are the combination of the Uralic and Altaic families (hence also "Ural–Altaic race").

2. Your latest link;


The Proto-Turkic language is the hypothetical proto-language of the family of Turkic languages that predates the separation of the Turkic peoples and separation into Oghuz and Oghur branches. A separate Turkic family is believed to have existed since approximately 4500-4000 BCE[1][2][3] though its separation into its modern branches may have taken as recently as 500 BCE.[2] Its speakers are usually connected with the early archaeological horizon of west and central Siberia and in the region south of it

3. I don't understand what your contention. Are you trying to say that the first Turks were a mixed-Caucasoid/Mongoloid people?

[Proto-Shaman]

1. First sentence of your first link;

Yes, the first sentence of my link: :picard1:

Turanid race, or South Siberian race,[1][2] is an anthropological term, originally intended to cover populations of Central Asia and Kazakhstan associated with the spread of the Turanian languages (a now obsolete term), which are the combination of the Uralic and Altaic families (hence also "Ural–Altaic race").


2. Your latest link;
3. I don't understand what your contention. Are you trying to say that the first Turks were a mixed-Caucasoid/Mongoloid people?
This is what research suggests. And now what you claim. Get it?

[Anglojew]

Yes, the first sentence of my link: :picard1:



This is what research suggests. And now what you claim. Get it?

Are you saying they were proto-Mongoloids or that they're the product of intermarriage between Mongoloids and Caucasoids?

[Anglojew]

Anyway we're arguing variations of the same thing. The original Turks were a dolichocephalic Mongoloid people related to the Mongols (who also had a Caucasoid element eg Genghis Khan was described as a blue-eyed red-head)

[Proto-Shaman]

Are you saying they were proto-Mongoloids or that they're the product of intermarriage between Mongoloids and Caucasoids?
Yeah sth. like that, just that the roots are even deeper. Possibly related to haplogroup N and haplogroup P, ancestor of R and Q.

[Anglojew]

Yeah sth. like that, just that the roots are even deeper. Possibly related to haplogroup N and haplogroup P, ancestor of R and Q.

It's more likely the Caucasoids (Scythians and others) went East while Mongoloids went West (and North as Siberia and Central Asia seem to have been Caucasoid first) and intermingled creating the ancestors of Turks and Mongols.

[Proto-Shaman]

It's more likely the Caucasoids (Scythians and others) went East while Mongoloids went West (and North as Siberia and Central Asia seem to have been Caucasoid first) and intermingled creating the ancestors of Turks and Mongols.
There is a good genealogist's comment (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/Klyosov2010DNK-GenealogyEn.htm) about the confrontation between this “Iranists” and “Türkists” issue:


"In conclusion, a brief pause on the Scythian issue. From the above, it is clear that the Scythian people - in fact, a collective term, were both Türkic-lingual, and “Iranian-lingual”, or more accurately, Aryan-lingual. They were both nomadic pastoralists (which is typical for the Türkic tribes), and farmers (which is often typical for the Aryans). They had both haplogroups R1a1, and R1b1. They lived in felt yurts (many of those who lived in them, were carriers of R1b1), and also in stationary buildings (many of those were farmers, R1a1). Unfortunately, neither the specialists in the Indo-European languages, nor the Turkists are willing to recognize the duality (at least) of the Scythians, Sarmatians, and many other steppe (and not only steppe) tribes of the 1st millennium BC and the beginning of our era. Moreover, these tribes definitely had other haplogroups, in the first place G, Q, N, C. The carriers of the haplogroup G in the Scythian and Sarmatian times likely were “Iranian-speaking”, and lived in the Iranian Plateau much earlier then the Aryan times. Then, of course, they were not “Indo-Europeans”. The carriers of the Q, N, and C were most likely Türkic-lingual.

The sooner both sides, the “Iranists” and “Türkists” recognize these facts, or at this point only considerations, the sooner linguistics would be enriched by new findings and discoveries. Especially, if in addition they would adopt in their research arsenal the DNA genealogy."


"For more than a hundred years the “Iranists, or more commonly” Indo-Europeanists” on one side, and Turkologists on the other side, completely deny the contribution of the opponent's linguistic group into the Eurasian linguistic landscape in antiquity (from the beginning of our era and older), asserting that in the Europe and Asia was either a continuous “Indo-Iranian” substrate, or conversely continuous Türkic substrate. They do not compromise. Examples are given below.

And the explanation is quite simple. Both sides are right, but on their own half. The two major Eurasian haplogroups, R1a and R1b, diverged (or rather, formed and diverged) 20-16 thousand years ago, evolved linguistically from the common Nostratic languages, respectively into the Pra-Aryan (later called “Proto-Indo-European”) and the Proto-Türkic, and then into Türkic. And because the paths of the haplogroups R1a and R1b carriers in Eurasia significantly transversed in the same territories, often with a gap of a millennia or two (R1a migrations are older in Europe, R1b migrations are older in Asia), they left “substrates” superimposed one on another, and intertwined in many ways. Since the agglutinative Türkic languages are probably less subjected to temporal changes than the flexive Indo-European languages, the Turkologists explain with ease almost all “Iranisms” from the Türkic languages. They are finding in works of the Classical writers many examples of Türkisms, in the proper names and in the names for the objects, and in separate terms. The Iranists in response brush them aside, and cite their own versions, in accordance with which certainly no Türkisms existed in the Eurasia during the past era and even more so before that. Or they ignore it, or undertake repressive measures in science. Any Turkologist can cite many examples of that kind.

This article introduces the problem, to show that many thousands years ago have existed both the Aryan, that is Proto-Indo-European languages, and the Proto-Türkic (or Türkic) languages. They simply were carried by different tribes, the first by the tribe R1a1, the second by R1b1, and perhaps by the kindred tribes Q and N. This concept, naturally, awaits deeper linguistic studies. But the beginning, as can be seen, is established.

The next section relays the story about of opposition between “Iranists” and “Türkists”. Actually, the opposition does not exists literally, it is rather a figure of speech. Too unequal were both sides to call it an “opposition”. But this figure of speech reflects the essence of the problem. Ever since the beginning of the 1950s, the official historical science postulated that the Scythians were “Iranian speaking”. The issue was not to be discussed any more. Any arguments and scientific evidence on the subject were not acknowledged by the official science (and that the official science exists is beyond discussions), or reacted to with dead silence for at least 60 years."

[RedLight]

Because they lacked the superior Mongol Cuman genes like Stears have.

[Proto-Shaman]

He is turanist Tatar, please dont mind him. All Tatars in Turkey have mongoloid looking.

real Turks are aryan europoid :D
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=47959&d=1402410336

Vs
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/nt_1488/clasificacion/NuevoImagendemapadebits3.jpg
You are just a hypocritical racist feeling bad about being invaded by guys like this:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=47959&d=1402410336

Nobody takes your racist bullshit serious. "Trying to convert Turks to Indo-Europeanism" *yawn*

[Kiyant]

The average Turkey Turk doesnt look like one of the two guys you posted

[Rugevit]

Considering that Scythians had the same steppe nomad lifestyles like Huns and Mongols, it seems to be that Scythians were more peaceful than Huns and Mongols because chronicles doesn't say anything about Scythians who plundered, conquered and fight against sedentary peoples like the Huns and Mongols did it. Why were Scythians more peaceful than Mongols?

They fought sedentary people of Anatolia if I am not mistaken.

[Kiyant]

They fought sedentary people of Anatolia if I am not mistaken.

They attacked the Crimmerians so often and much that the Crimmerian King was so desperate that he became a vassal of Pontus

[Rugevit]

Who are the contemporary descendants of the Scythians?

Southern Slavs, Hungarians and Ukrainians have substantial amount of Scythian heritage in my opinion.

[Rugevit]

Oh yeah I forgot the Poles. There is definitely evidence for some of the Polish elite being of Sarmatian descent.

A fairy-tale created by Polish nobility to distant themselves from ordinary folks.

[Rugevit]

The Ashina clan actually were Scythians originally. There's is some confusion about this today. This is why I'm sure the Khazars were a Sarmatian group.

Bollocks again. Ashina and original Turks came from Altay mountains or Mongolia speaking Turkic languages. Scythians were east Iranic speakers which have been proven beyond doubts. They came from the Middle Asia, mostly likely Turkmenia, into the steppes of southern Russia and southern Ukraine.

[Rugevit]

Don't forget their language is Iranic and they came from Central Asia, I seriously oppose the idea they were like slavs. If they were blond hair caucasians than the blond Iranic like the Pamiri and Tajiks not slav.

Scythian were Nomad speaking east Iranic, while Slavs were sedentary speaking European language living in forests. Scythian was an umbrella term for many nomads living in the steppes. Most likely Scythians didn't identify themselves as Scythians either. But! Some steppe nomads that lived in Ukraine mixed with Slavs.

[Rugevit]

LOL if Scyhtians got some slavic gene good because their descend of Anatolia look dark.... Unibrown mongrels

Well Cimmerians become our :D Most Cimmerians settled Anatolia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatsa

Antiquity[edit]


The Diocese of Pontus and its provinces in c. 400 AD.


Fatsa, the late Ottoman era.
The history of Fatsa goes back to antiquity, when the coast was settled by Cimmerians, and Pontic Greeks in the centuries BC. The ruins on Mount Çıngırt (the ancient rock tombs and vaults) are from this period.

It's opposite. Some Slavs have Sarmatian blood , who were descdents of Scythians. Slavs and Sarmatians mixed in the steppes of Ukraine. Some of those people migrated in the Balkans. There are written evidence describing Antes people of Ukraine. Also, there is some east Iranic mythology in east Slavi culture: Khors, Semargl, Gamayun.

[Anglojew]

A fairy-tale created by Polish nobility to distant themselves from ordinary folks.

Prove it

[Anglojew]

Bollocks again. Ashina and original Turks came from Altay mountains or Mongolia speaking Turkic languages. Scythians were east Iranic speakers which have been proven beyond doubts. They came from the Middle Asia, mostly likely Turkmenia, into the steppes of southern Russia and southern Ukraine.

Only a theory, not borne out by genetic evidence which has proved that while the Ashina clan became associated with Turks (being the rulers of the Steppes) their haplogroup Q1b "...was indigenous to Central Asia and was absorbed by the Indo-Iranian branch (eg Scythian) of the Indo-Europeans there During the Bronze Age Andronovo culture."

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ashinaroyaldynasty/

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?125431-Haplogroup-Q

(From: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml)

[Rugevit]

Only a theory, not borne out by genetic evidence which has proved that while the Ashina clan became associated with Turks (being the rulers of the Steppes) their haplogroup Q1b "...was indigenous to Central Asia and was absorbed by the Indo-Iranian branch (eg Scythian) of the Indo-Europeans there During the Bronze Age Andronovo culture."

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ashinaroyaldynasty/

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?125431-Haplogroup-Q

(From: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml)

Theory? The dictionary of scythian language has been reconstructed from their grave inscription and greek chronicles containing over 400 words. They spoke east Iranic language. Haplogroups mean shit, as no ethnicity is homogeneous let alone the rulers, who were often mixed.

[Rugevit]

Prove it

It has been proven already.

[Anglojew]

It has been proven already.

Cop out. It's like me saying it's been proven Neil Armstrong never landed on the moon. Doesn't make it true. It's one theory.

[Anglojew]

Theory? The dictionary of scythian language has been reconstructed from their grave inscription and greek chronicles containing over 400 words. They spoke east Iranic language. Haplogroups mean shit, as no ethnicity is homogeneous let alone the rulers, who were often mixed.

Yes but together with historical and archaeological evidence they do prove contentions. At least I've posted evidence for my theories.

[Rugevit]

Yes but together with historical and archaeological evidence they do prove contentions. At least I've posted evidence for my theories.

Who are they? what are you talking about?

[Rugevit]

Cop out. It's like me saying it's been proven Neil Armstrong never landed on the moon. Doesn't make it true. It's one theory.

Poland's terrain is not suited for nomads' lifestyle, who were living on horseback and in wagons attested in the chronicles. Sarmatians dwelled in the steppes of southern Ukraine and Russia. Besides, there is no genetic difference between descendants of Szlachta and the rest of Polish population. In addition, there's plenty written about the legend of Sarmatian Szlachta .

[Anglojew]

Poland's terrain is not suited for nomads' lifestyle, who were living on horseback and in wagons attested in the chronicles. Sarmatians dwelled in the steppes of southern Ukraine and Russia. Besides, there is no genetic difference between descendants of Szlachta and the rest of Polish population. In addition, there's plenty written about the legend of Sarmatian Szlachta .


According Polish nobles Sarmatians never leave their lifestyle just becomes warrior/cavalry- elite amongst Slavonic people.... Poles loved cavalry, and cavalry tradition was something completly untypical amongst our nightbourers(except Hungarians). Many times Russian or Swedish infantry units were beaten by our Hussary...

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/8052-Polako-now-quot-officially-quot-Scythian

[Anglojew]

Who are they? what are you talking about?

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118662-Ashkenazi-Jewish-YDNA-Q-s-Were-Scythians-Royals-Who-Later-Ruled-The-Khazars

[Demhat]

Considering that Scythians had the same steppe nomad lifestyles like Huns and Mongols, it seems to be that Scythians were more peaceful than Huns and Mongols because chronicles doesn't say anything about Scythians who plundered, conquered and fight against sedentary peoples like the Huns and Mongols did it. Why were Scythians more peaceful than Mongols?


Scythians were not really peaceful. They cut the head of their enemies and used the skull as Jar. I don't know which history book you have red, but the Scythians did conquer everything all the way into the Altais.

The reason why they didn't conquer the Huns was because, when Huns appeared there wasn't something called Scythians anymore, in fact the Huns absorbed them: The Huns were a biracial group of Scythian and Mongol hordes merging.

[Demhat]

I should mention they Sarmatians were probably a Scythian (Iranic)-Turkic blend.

The Sarmatians were without a doubt Iranic. When the first Turkic groups came to beeing the Sarmatians still existed. Also we do have relatively good sources about Sarmatians and they are definitely identified as Iranic tribe. The Ossetians, descend of the Alans (a group of the Sarmatians) speak clearly an Iranic language. But they were absorbed however.

The Khazars might have been descend of Sarmatians, but this doesn't make the Sarmatians part Turkic. if anything this makes the Khazars (as most Turkic groups) part Iranic.

[Demhat]

I've been researching them (Scythians) for a while. I think Herodotus alludes to it somewhere here; http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_herodotus_4.htm

It explains many things including ancient descriptions, the fact they're depicted as darker whereas Scythians are depicted as blonde, as well as genetics and geography.

They were darker haired because they were not pure blooded Scythians. There is a saying from Heredotus ( I believe) that Sarmatians are a blend of Median wifes who were taken by the Scythians and gave birth to the Sarmatians.

[Demhat]

Linguistically the Ossetians. Genetically probably much of Eurasia.


The Ossetians are descend of the Alans, the Sarmatian tribe which were always locals to the Caucasus. In fact The Alan who were used as Soldiers and raided much of Europe and North Africa were similar to modern Ossetians. In fact I have seen a Jász (Alans from Hungaria) on 23andme who has the same Haplogroup as the majority of Ossetians, basically G2a*. I don't believe this is coincidence. Also take into account according to Strabo the Alans were called Caucasii, as people of the Caucasus.

In Strabo, the Sarmatians extend from above the Danube eastward to the Volga, and from north of the Dnepr into the Caucasus, where, he says, they are called Caucasii like everyone else there. This statement indicates that the Alans already had a home in the Caucasus, without waiting for the Huns to push them there.

So the Alans were already natives of the Caucasus.

I often have this strange feeling that ButtlerK. is the fake account of a User here who is always promiting mongolid admixture in Eastern iranic tribes with using old science despite genetic evidences that the core of them was almost purely West Eurasian.

[Demhat]

By the way this is the reconstruction of the blonde Ice mummy from the Altais. Made by professional scientists with modern methods using the genetic, and sekeletal material.

http://www.zdf.de/ZDF/zdfportal/blob/1155778/2/data.jpg
http://www.zdf.de/terra-x/der-blonde-prinz-5237666.html

[Demhat]

Reconstruction of Scythian female from Siberia using modern and professional methods.
http://www.praeparator.ch/inhalt/skythin_tattoo2gross.jpg
http://www.praeparator.ch/inhalt/skythin_tattoo1gross.jpg
http://www.praeparator.ch/150_d_rekonstruktionen.htm

[Anglojew]

The Sarmatians were without a doubt Iranic. When the first Turkic groups came to beeing the Sarmatians still existed. Also we do have relatively good sources about Sarmatians and they are definitely identified as Iranic tribe. The Ossetians, descend of the Alans (a group of the Sarmatians) speak clearly an Iranic language. But they were absorbed however.

The Khazars might have been descend of Sarmatians, but this doesn't make the Sarmatians part Turkic. if anything this makes the Khazars (as most Turkic groups) part Iranic.

They were the first to mix with Turkic groups because of their geographic location. Ossetians have minor Mongoloid admixture.

http://oi57.tinypic.com/2s67gb4.jpg

[Anglojew]

Reconstruction of Scythian female from Siberia using modern and professional methods.
http://www.praeparator.ch/inhalt/skythin_tattoo2gross.jpg
http://www.praeparator.ch/inhalt/skythin_tattoo1gross.jpg
http://www.praeparator.ch/150_d_rekonstruktionen.htm

That's amazing. Is there a male one?

[Demhat]

They were the first to mix with Turkic groups because of their geographic location. Ossetians have minor Mongoloid admixture.

http://oi57.tinypic.com/2s67gb4.jpg


Ossetians had contact with Turkic tribes. The Sarmatians were the first to have been absorbed by Turkic groups true, but that doesn't make the Sarmatians Iranic_Turkic mixes. If Modern Germans are part Celtic, that doesn't make the original Germanic groups part Celtic.

Thats my point.

[Demhat]

That's amazing. Is there a male one?


Yes I have posted him, unfortunately it's only a small size image. The male one looks basically like one of those blond haired Iranics.

http://www.zdf.de/ZDF/zdfportal/blob/1155778/2/data.jpg
http://indiaexplored.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/kalash-man.jpg

[Anglojew]

Ossetians had contact with Turkic tribes. The Sarmatians were the first to have been absorbed by Turkic groups true, but that doesn't make the Sarmatians Iranic_Turkic mixes. If Modern Germans are part Celtic, that doesn't make the original Germanic groups part Celtic.

Thats my point.

True but my theory is that they were considered different from Scythians because they intermarried Turkic women (who were called Amazons and others).

[Demhat]

True but my theory is that they were considered different from Scythians because they intermarried Turkic women (who were called Amazons and others).

Unlikely. because material dna of the female Amazons clearly show a West Eurasian signature. The theory that the Amazons were Medes from the Southern Caucasus area is likely.

[Demhat]

Reconstruction of Amazon with genetic material. at Minute 8:31
Commentator says "rather European facial features" which basically means in comparison to East Asian looks rather European, in the same sense as some West Asians, who would look "rather European".

looks similar to one of those Kurdish female fighters. Robust face. http://haralddoornbos.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/img_1568.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H5zaIcvT24

[Anglojew]

Yes I have posted him, unfortunately it's only a small size image. The male one looks basically like one of those blond haired Iranics.

http://www.zdf.de/ZDF/zdfportal/blob/1155778/2/data.jpg
http://indiaexplored.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/kalash-man.jpg

He looks like a blonde indonesian. I'm not sure they've given him the correct features or pigmentation.

[Demhat]

He looks like a blonde indonesian. I'm not sure they've given him the correct features or pigmentation.

They might have darkened his skin color to show a tanned appearance but his facial Feature look pretty normal iranic. I have nevrer Seen in my Life an indonesian with those facial Features

[Anglojew]

They might have darkened his skin color to show a tanned appearance but his facial Feature look pretty normal iranic. I have nevrer Seen in my Life an indonesian with those facial Features

http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/v2_article_large/public/2012/09/11/303660-indonesian-man-smoking.jpg

[blogen]

Yes I have posted him, unfortunately it's only a small size image. The male one looks basically like one of those blond haired Iranics.

http://www.zdf.de/ZDF/zdfportal/blob/1155778/2/data.jpg

No, not. The man is not a Mediterranid, Jesus, he was not a gracile character, this two picture is black and white and he is not Europid, based on his flat cheekbone for example. With this character he is a Turano-Pamirid and this hiperbrachycephal woman is a Pamirid character too. These almost Europid Europo-Mongoloids were the ancient and early medieval Turanids and Pamirids in Central Asia and the Altay. Before the great Mongoloidization (Turks and Mongols) of the local forms. The metisation started in the Altay in the early Iron-age based on the surveyed remains.

[Hexachordia]

Mongols were hate driven, they hated chinese people so much they planned to exterminate all east asians. Mongols were not a mongoloid power, they hate all mongoloid people. Remnant mongols who sruvived kamikaze and landed on Japan were described as hooded, tall, cruel like demon. Some of them became ninjas on horse back.

[Hexachordia]

Mongols are no mongoloid.

Massacres against chinese and ethnic chinese:


It's difficult to know exactly how well-deserved that bad reputation was, but the Mongol Wars of the 13th century depopulated Asia by somewhere between 30 million and 60 million people. Hundreds of thousands of Chinese were said to have committed suicide in the face of approaching Mongol hordes.


Mongol caste system in China:



Perhaps the most hated convention adopted by the Mongol rulers was the "Four Class System." Rights and privileges in Yuan China were distributed on the basis of one's ethnic class. The Mongols placed themselves at the top of this class system, followed by their Central Asian allies (semu), the Northern Chinese (han) and, at the bottom, the Southern Chinese people (nan) who had been ruled by the Song dynasty. Mongols and semu received preferential treatment in matters as varied as taxation and criminal law.

The Yuan leadership maintained contact with the outside world. The imperial house employed many government Muslim advisers from western Asia - a fact that increased popular resentment to "foreign rule." In addition, the thirteenth century also marked the beginning of European travel to China. European missionaries and traders visited the royal court during this period; Marco Polo, an Italian explorer, served as an official in Kublai Kahn's court between 1275 and 1291.

Invasion of Japan:


The Mongol invasions of Japan (元寇, Genkō?) of 1274 and 1281 were major military efforts undertaken by Kublai Khan to conquer the Japanese islands after the submission of Goryeo (Korea) to vassaldom. Despite their ultimate failure, the invasion attempts are of macrohistorical importance because they set a limit on Mongol expansion and rank as nation-defining events in Japanese history. The Japanese successfully repelled the invasions, in part because the Mongols lost up to 75% of their troops and supplies both times on the ocean as a result of major storms.

The Mongol invasions are an early example of gunpowder warfare. One of the most notable technological innovations during the war was the use of explosive bombs.[1] The invasions are referred to in many works of fiction, and are the earliest events for which the word kamikaze, or "divine wind", is widely used. Prior to the American occupation of Japan at the end of World War II, these failed invasion attempts were the closest Japan had come to being conquered by a foreign power in the last 1,500 years.


Mongols literally hate all mongoloid people, from northern chinese to southern, from China to Japan, however they did not invade India, made use of massive western troops beside some chinese technicians on catapults.

[Sky earth]

Scythians were not really peaceful. They cut the head of their enemies and used the skull as Jar. I don't know which history book you have red, but the Scythians did conquer everything all the way into the Altais.

The reason why they didn't conquer the Huns was because, when Huns appeared there wasn't something called Scythians anymore, in fact the Huns absorbed them: The Huns were a biracial group of Scythian and Mongol hordes merging.

Turks and Mongols used the same practice of drinking from the skull of the enemy

[Hexachordia]

Few translation from chinese records:


<Duosang Mongol History> :
Han and ethnic chinese are ranked lowest where mongols rule.
one of Ghengis Khans decrees: Killing a han is equal killing a mule

Ogedei let his officials discuss the use of han people,
Kublai Khan answered:"no use of them"
A noble say:"kill them all."
YeluChucai answere:"we can save them for increasing the tax."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yelu_Chucai

<Yuan History> records that Bayan Khan adviced exterminated all chinese with the surnames: Zhang, Wang, Liu, Li, Zhao.


　
Chinese under mongol rule were without names, but numbers.
Surname+number, Li3 or Zhang4.
The emperor of Ming dynasty had a grandfather named: Zhu 54,
When mongols arrived in coastal areas, they hurled chinese inhabitants into the sea for fun.

[Demhat]

http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/v2_article_large/public/2012/09/11/303660-indonesian-man-smoking.jpg

I don't really see the resemblence. Also the documentrary from which this reconstruction is, they speak of a Caucasian type of look. So they might had a Blond South_Central Asian in mind when they did the reconstruction, because his brown skin was obviously from the artists interpretations.

[Demhat]

No, not. The man is not a Mediterranid, Jesus, he was not a gracile character, this two picture is black and white and he is not Europid, based on his flat cheekbone for example. With this character he is a Turano-Pamirid and this hiperbrachycephal woman is a Pamirid character too. These almost Europid Europo-Mongoloids were the ancient and early medieval Turanids and Pamirids in Central Asia and the Altay. Before the great Mongoloidization (Turks and Mongols) of the local forms. The metisation started in the Altay in the early Iron-age based on the surveyed remains.


Man now you are criticizing the reconstruction made with most modern tools using genetic (which wasn't possible in the past) and skeletal material. In which the scientist clearly speak of typically Caucasian features. Just get over it.

The Amazon woman is claerly Caucasian as seen in the Documentrary. The scientist is even dissapointed that she didn't look like any modern people from Central Asia.

The Scythian female reconstruction with usage of genetic and skeletal material is clearly Caucasian.

The Scythian blond prince is clearly described as Caucasian (even though he is from the most eastern portion of Scythia were the people were admixed).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTcRuHE8J3c



Does she look like a Caucasian+Momgolid person to you?
http://www.praeparator.ch/inhalt/skythin_tattoo1gross.jpg


Also by the way most oldshool scientists would classify the Pamirid type as an Iranic subtype which is most prevelant in Tajiks and predominantly Caucasian.

[Demhat]

Turks and Mongols used the same practice of drinking from the skull of the enemy


This is because both have adopted it from Scythians, especially the Turkic tribes which were simply a merging of Iranic and Mongol tribes.

[gültekin]

a descendant of the Scythians
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bp6djy3CcAAtZdd.jpg:large

[Demhat]

possibility is there, looks Caucasian even though he is probably a Turk, yet doesn't look typically Scythian. Is not light haired, looks Anatolian.

[gültekin]

possibility is there, looks Caucasian even though he is probably a Turk?
no , a Kürt

[Demhat]

no , a Kürt

For a moment I thought he was a Grey wolf Türk. Looks rather Anatolian or Iranian. But Scythian genes are always possible.

[gültekin]

For a moment I thought he was a Grey wolf Türk. Looks rather Anatolian or Iranian. But Scythian genes are always possible.
no, no he dont looks like a Türk. he is a Kurd a Pkk member, and he looks exactly like a Kurd

[Demhat]

no, no he dont looks like a Türk. he is a Kurd a Pkk member, and he looks exactly like a Kurd

you mad bro?

[gültekin]

you mad bro ?
no i dont. I only laugh at a Scythian wanna be Kürt

[Demhat]

no i dont. I only laugh at a Scythian wanna be Kürt

Yes, you mad

You are right, he actually doesn't look Tirk.


This is how a Tirk looks like
http://img1.loadtr.com/b-429279-SEMIH_KAYA.jpg
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/f8/15/6b/f8156b6ea654273ac09384ee5aad2966.jpg

[gültekin]

a Kurdish Scythian family
http://image.iha.com.tr/Contents//2013/01/04/HaberDetayi/IHA_20130104_260942.jpg

[Demhat]

Ever thought of doing a DNA test? Maybe you are descend of one of those blond turkish vikings.

[gültekin]

Kurdish Scythian warriors
http://cdn1.haberdar.com/haberler/molla-mustafa-2343231259.jpg

[Demhat]

Another reconstruction of a Scythian. This time from Ukraine
http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pic%5CS%5CC%5CScythian%20man%20from%20Nikopol%20ku rhan%20%28reconstruction%29.jpg

[blogen]

Man now you are criticizing the reconstruction made with most modern tools using genetic (which wasn't possible in the past) and skeletal material. In which the scientist clearly speak of typically Caucasian features. Just get over it.
The Amazon woman is claerly Caucasian as seen in the Documentrary. The scientist is even dissapointed that she didn't look like any modern people from Central Asia.
The Scythian female reconstruction with usage of genetic and skeletal material is clearly Caucasian.
The Scythian blond prince is clearly described as Caucasian (even though he is from the most eastern portion of Scythia were the people were admixed).

Source?


Does she look like a Caucasian+Momgolid person to you?
http://www.praeparator.ch/inhalt/skythin_tattoo1gross.jpg

Yes, she is a typical Pamirid women, for example an almost identical contemporary Tajik analogy:
http://s27.postimg.org/e7lnhjzmr/242c898b26c1.jpg

or a Pamiro-Armenoid character from Hungary:
http://s27.postimg.org/xbom8r86b/pamir.jpg

These faces are the typcial almost Europid part of the Europo-Mongoloid spectrum and the typical ancient Central Asian and South-Siberian Europo-Mongoloids before the great Mongoloidization of the region, when Europid, and almost Europid Europo-Mongoloid forms disappeared.


Also by the way most oldshool scientists would classify the Pamirid type as an Iranic subtype which is most prevelant in Tajiks and predominantly Caucasian.

when did you see a hyperbrachycephel Iranid last? :D

The Pamirid is Taurid form and not Iranid. The Iranids are dolichocephal Mediterranids, while the Pamirid are brachycephal/hyperbrachycephal Taurids and rest of their characteristics are differ too. This is the short story of the Pamirid race:

bronze age: Central Asian Taurids exist only, the clear Europid local Taurid form. The pre-Iranian neolithic population.
iron age: Central Asian Taurids + few South Siberian Turanids (Cromagnoid+few Mongoloid) = Pamirids (the Pamiridization was a process between the iron age and the early medieval), the Iranian conquest, presumably the first Turanid component arrived with the Fedorovo, Cherkaskul and other South Siberian origin migration. (http://s27.postimg.org/sr2fttogz/7oul.jpg)
since the medieval: Mongoloidization started in Central Asia (the ancient form survives in the mountains and Western Pamirid migrants (for example between the Hungarians).

The three basic component of the Scythians were the Protoeuropid (Cromagnoid), the Pamirid and various origin Mediterranid elements.

[Demhat]

blogen I said Iranic and not Iranid. An Iranic type means, a type common among Iranic people. Pamirid belongs to this.

Anyways I don't see the resemblence (beside similarities which are not unusual) between the Tajik and Scythian female. She has a Meso-Dolichocephalic skull with a touch of cromagnoid.

The resmblence you have detected between the Pamirid and Scythian female, is in the same grade as a resemblence you would detect between the Pamirid and a Irano-Nordid/Irano_Pontid. ;)

http://www.praeparator.ch/inhalt/skythin_tattoo3gross.jpg

She doesn't have these high cheekbones you see in cromagnoids and some Taurids.
http://www.praeparator.ch/inhalt/skythin_tattoo2gross.jpg

[blogen]

blogen you need to understand the difference between Iranid and Iranic. An Iranic type means, a type common among Iranic people. Pamirid belongs to this.

:picard2:


Anyways I don't see the resemblence (beside similarities which are not unusual) between the Tajik and Scythian female. She has a Meso-Dolichocephalic skull with a touch of cromagnoid.

So this fuckin hyperbrachycephalic women in the reconstruction is a Meso-Dolichocephalic for you. Ok, I guess, this is meaningless, since you do not know the meaning of these words from the form of the skull.

Hyperbrachycephalic:
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe021.jpg

Dolichocephalic:
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe234.jpg

This women is a classic example onto a hyperbrachicephalic head form.


She doesn't have these high cheekbones you see in cromagnoids and some Taurids.

And yes, she had, this is a great facial flatness, what caused her flat cheekbone:

http://s27.postimg.org/ii9yo00f7/skythin_tattoo3grossadfa.jpg

This flatness is a clear visible sign of the metisation in the almost Europid part of the Europo-Mongoloid spectrum.

[ALL]

Skilurus:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/Skillur_Scythian_King.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia#mediaviewer/File:Skiluros.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skilurus

[Demhat]

Makes no sense blogen. You can't even see the difference between Dolicho-meso and a brachycephalic. And than you present some almost meso guy as Hyperbrachycephalic.

This is brachycepahlic http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe393.jpg
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/7533/64590670.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/Image15-8.jpg

You see features, where there aren't any. The female has high cheekbones?:picard1:

Just stop it here.

[Demhat]

Skilurus:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/Skillur_Scythian_King.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia#mediaviewer/File:Skiluros.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skilurus

A sculpture made by Mikhail Mikhaylovich Gerasimov, a man who was born in 1907, who had no genetic material for help, just soley based on his own artistic intepretation.

You can't compare this to modern reconstructions, made on genetic material in the 21 century.

This here is a professional reconstruction of a female Scythian from Siberia

http://www.praeparator.ch/inhalt/skythin_tattoo2gross.jpg

[blogen]

:picard2:

ps. So you do not know the difference between the horizontally highness and the vertically flatness in the case of the cheekbone. Ok. :D

[ALL]

A sculpture made by Mikhail Mikhaylovich Gerasimov, a man who was born in 1907, who had no genetic material for help, just soley based on his own artistic intepretation.

You can't compare this to modern reconstructions, made on genetic material in the 21 century.

Relief from Scythian Neapolis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_Neapolis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia#mediaviewer/File:Skiluros.jpg

[Demhat]

Relief from Scythian Neapolis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_Neapolis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia#mediaviewer/File:Skiluros.jpg



How does this relict, look like the "artistic" sculpture? Did he even use skeletal material or was it made just out of his fantasy? The point is, there is absolutely nothing scientific on the sculpture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Skiluros.jpg

Totally different features.

Guys just stop it here.

[ALL]

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/Images/countries/Chinese%20pics/cherchen.jpg

http://i2.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Loulan-Beauty.jpg

Cherchen man and beauty of Loulan

[Demhat]

:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

This is the sculpture of the Russian Ivan the terrible from Moskow made by Mikhail Gerasimov
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/IoannIV_reconstruction_by_Gerasimov02.jpg/640px-IoannIV_reconstruction_by_Gerasimov02.jpg

Are you fucking serious? This guy simply has an Asian fettish. In every of his god damn sculptures there is something Asian about it.

This is an original painting of Ivan the terrible.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Ivan-Groznyi-Parsuna.jpg

This guy simply has an Asian fettish so never again present me some of his bullshit.

So no wonder his Scythian from Ukraine looks like he came straight out of China.

[ALL]

Hittites-The Hittites were an ancient Anatolian people who established an empire at Hattusa in north-central Anatolia around 1600 BCE. This empire reached its height during the mid-14th century BCE under Suppiluliuma I,

http://d5iam0kjo36nw.cloudfront.net/V06p427001.jpg

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7774-hittites

[Demhat]

He himself looked like an half East Asian so no wonder he saw the whole world as mongoloid touched.
http://ahistoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Gerasimov.jpg

More of his "art"
Persian Rudaki. Looks like a Turkic tribal leader.
http://atlas-dev.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/assets/Rudaki_reconstruction.jpg


Yaroslav the wise, Grand Prince of Rus', probably of Norse origin.
This is how he looked like according to Gerasimov
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Yaroslav_reconstruction_edit.jpg

Andrey Bogolyubsky, Russian Prince
http://i45.tinypic.com/28atb8z.jpg

Hell even his bust of the German Friedrich Schiller looks Asian touched.

Never again dare to show me any bust of this dude. You will not be taken serious.

[Demhat]

Hittites-The Hittites were an ancient Anatolian people who established an empire at Hattusa in north-central Anatolia around 1600 BCE. This empire reached its height during the mid-14th century BCE under Suppiluliuma I,

http://d5iam0kjo36nw.cloudfront.net/V06p427001.jpg

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7774-hittites

So now the Hittites were also Turkic? Whatever

[blogen]

Yaroslav the wise, Grand Prince of Rus', probably of Norse origin.
This is how he looked like according to Gerasimov

Based on a clearly Europo-Mongoloid Scythian women's skull, after the genetic and other examinations of the past years. This was not Gerasimov's mistake since this happened because of the superficial examinations in 1939. :D


Andrey Bogolyubsky, Russian Prince

Half Cumanian, half Russian, so his Europo-Mongoloid character is not a surprise.


Persian Rudaki. Looks like a Turkic tribal leader.

The metisation was very strong in the medieval Central Asia.

[Demhat]

Based on a clearly Europo-Mongoloid Scythian women's skull, after the genetic and other examinations of the past years. This was not Gerasimov's mistake since this happened because of the superficial examinations in 1939. :D




So the Grand Prince of the Rus (who was very likely of Viking origin) looked like a Euro_Mongol.

Tell me more bro!

Do you have any source that Andrey Bogolyubsky was half Cuman?

This sculptures of Gerasimov are useless

And what about Ivan the terrible. Dude it is getting really ridiculous. It is visible to anyone that ALL of his work has a Asian touch on it.


So the

[Xanthias]

So now the Hittites were also Turkic? Whatever

no, they weren't, more related with armenians than turkic.

[ALL]

So now the Hittites were also Turkic? Whatever
Just trying to show a wide range of ancient phenotypes. For example compare these two Kings, one is Saka-Scythian one is Balkan.
Jivadaman/Saka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jivadaman#mediaviewer/File:Jivadaman_119_Shaka_Era_197_CE.jpg
Constantine the Great/Balkan
http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/romanconstantine/headdet.jpg

[blogen]

So the Grand Prince of the Rus (who was very likely of Viking origin) looked like a Euro_Mongol.

No, the bones on the greve was female bones from different ages, one was a hard worker medieval women and one was a women from the Scythian epoch and the prince's bones were not in the grave.


Do you have any source that Andrey Bogolyubsky was half Cuman?

Since his mother was Cumanian --> Православная Энциклопедия (http://www.pravenc.ru/text/115338.html)

And his grave was excavated besides this, so his skull was the base of this reconstruction.


And what about Ivan the terrible. Dude it is getting really ridiculous. It is visible to anyone that ALL of his work has a Asian touch on it.

Ivan's face is Europid on his reconstruction.

[Sikeliot]

gültekin, please stay on topic. Many of your posts are off topic and gearing the discussion off base. Thanks.

[McCauley]

A sculpture made by Mikhail Mikhaylovich Gerasimov, a man who was born in 1907, who had no genetic material for help, just soley based on his own artistic intepretation.

You can't compare this to modern reconstructions, made on genetic material in the 21 century.

This here is a professional reconstruction of a female Scythian from Siberia

http://www.praeparator.ch/inhalt/skythin_tattoo2gross.jpg

That reconstruction is clearly a Europo-Mongoloid character :laugh:

[blogen]

That reconstruction is clearly a Europo-Mongoloid character :laugh:

Yes, the facial flatnes is the clear sign of this. There are not Europids with a flat cheekbone like this. This is the almost Europid edge of the Europo-Mongoloid spectrum, where the characteristics of the skull show the mixed ancestry only.

http://s27.postimg.org/grqxmiiw3/skythin_tattoo2gross.jpg

[Rugevit]

The term Schythian was applied to many peoples living in the steppes. Ultimately, whichever nomadic tribe wandered into the steppes of southern Russia and Ukraine were known as Scythians and Sarmatians. Now, people are arguing who were Scythians and Sarmatians. Think of the term British applied to a resdient of GB.

[Demhat]

No, the bones on the greve was female bones from different ages, one was a hard worker medieval women and one was a women from the Scythian epoch and the prince's bones were not in the grave.
What has this actually to do with the fact that the "artist" made a mongol looking sculpture
from an individual who is knownly of Norse ancestry? Look the fact that no bones of this prince have been found yet the artist made a mongol looking sculpture despite the fact that any person with a normal working brain would rather come to the conclusion that the prince should look Caucasian. This alone is a proof that none of his work is reliable. Not only because he has no idea of genetics but also because he seems to have some sort of asian fettish.



Since his mother was Cumanian --> Православная Энциклопедия (http://www.pravenc.ru/text/115338.html)

Good so one individual who might had some Turkic ancestry but what about all the rest?






Ivan's face is Europid on his reconstruction.

Is there actually any active cell in your brain or are you just in denial? ;)

How does the sculpture of Ivan looks more Europid than the sculpture of the Russian prince.

Does this look more Caucasian
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/IoannIV_reconstruction_by_Gerasimov02.jpg/640px-IoannIV_reconstruction_by_Gerasimov02.jpg

than this ?

http://visualrian.ru/en/images/zooms/RIAN_31561.jpg


For Gods sake if someone told me this sculpture of Ivan is actually Genghis Khan, I wouldn't doubt that for a second.
I mean you seriously need to check your eyes. You see mongol features where there aren't any (like the female Scythian reconstruction) and don't see Mongol features were there are visible once.

Fact is Gerasimov work is useless. If we take his work serious than all ancient Russians and even Norse where Euro-Mongol Hybrids.

Modern reconstruction based on genetics + skeletal material are ALLOT more reliable.

[Demhat]

That reconstruction is clearly a Europo-Mongoloid character :laugh:

But don't you see, she could easilly pass as some Krygz or Mongol. (Irony) :rolleyes2:

[Demhat]

no, they weren't, more related with armenians than turkic.



Hittetes are not directly related to any known modern ethnicity. Armenians are likely descend of Phrygians.

[Demhat]

The term Schythian was applied to many peoples living in the steppes. Ultimately, whichever nomadic tribe wandered into the steppes of southern Russia and Ukraine were known as Scythians and Sarmatians. Now, people are arguing who were Scythians and Sarmatians. Think of the term British applied to a resdient of GB.


Scythian and Scythia are not one and the same. This is like saying any one could have been Roman since Romans conquered vast lands.

Though non Scythian groups were included in the Empire, and the Europeans called anyone from Scythia "Scythians", just like they also called any West Iranic tribes "Persians" not matter if they were really Persians or Medes/Parthians, there is definitely one original Scythian group.

The Royal Scythian, from Ukraine/ Northwest Caucasus and the Saka in Central Asia. Those are the original Scythians.

Than you had several other tribal groups inside Scythia, who were not Scythians but the vast majority related Iranic tribes. Like the Dahae, Sogdians, Sarmatians, Bactrians, Kushan, Cimmerians and Massagetae (Massagetae are those who beat the Scythian and forced them to migrate into Cimmeria).

Later when the Scythians gained more power, they conquered some other tribal lands, like Siberia and the Ural Mountains, where they mixed with the locals (in Siberia especially with Turkic tribes).

[blogen]

What has this actually to do with the fact that the "artist" made a mongol looking sculpture
from an individual who is knownly of Norse ancestry?

The women are random in the grave and the man skeleton likewise not authentic according to the genetic examinations (not Yaroslav) So he made a reconstruction from a skull, but this skull was not the skull of the prince, but a random Europo-Mongoloid men. Gerasimov do not knew this. The whole grave is a fake grave since centuries.

Look the fact that no bones of this prince have been found yet the artist made a mongol looking sculpture despite the fact that any person with a normal working brain would rather come to the conclusion that the prince should look Caucasian. This alone is a proof that none of his work is reliable. Not only because he has no idea of genetics but also because he has an Asian fettish.


Good so one individual who might had some Turkic ancestry but what about all the rest?

Who cares, since he was an Europo-Mongoloid based on his bones and because of this. If this women was the first Europo-Mongoloid in the family.


Is there actually one working cell in your brain or are you just in denial?
How does the sculpture of Ivan looks more Europid than the sculpture of the Russian prince.
Does this look more Caucasian
than this?

Both guy were clear Europid and they seem a clear Europid. They do not have a flat face because their cheekbone was rounded.


I mean you seriously need to check your eyes. You see mongol features where there aren't any (like the female Scythian reconstruction) and don't see Mongol features were there are visible once.

This is your problem. I see only the bone structure behind the reconstructions. Flat cheekbone caused facial flatnes = Mongoloid ancestors. No facial flatness, no Mongoloid ancestors. This is very easy situation.


Modern reconstruction based on genetics + skeletal material are ALLOT more reliable.

:picard2:

What genetics? Genetics in the facial reconstruction? Why? Useless, except in the case of the color complexion.

[Demhat]

Both guy were clear Europid and they seem a clear Europid. They do not have a flat face because their cheekbone was rounded.


But you do realize that the second guy is the Scythian king which was used as example by Silesian of "Euro_Mongol" looking Scythian :D
You guys are contradicting yourselves.

Whatever you say blogen. I see you won't change your position though the obvious. Just let the people decide who is right and who isn't. In my book Gerasimov is not reliable and his work is useless phantasy.

[blogen]

But you do realize that the second guy is the Scythian king which was used as example by Silesian of "Euro_Mongol" looking Scythian :D
You guys are contradicting yourselves.
Whatever you say blogen. I see you won't change your position though the obvious. Just let the people decide who is right and who isn't. In my book Gerasimov is not reliable and his work is useless phantasy.

Yes, the second guy was a Scythian king between the European Scythians. And the Europo-Mongoloid proportion was only 10-20% between them. Not a surprise, that one of them are clear Europid, but this would be a surprise in the Altay, especially between the elite. Since the Europo-Mongoloids were the majority between the Altay Scythians. Here is some data. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?125767-Nordic-Scythian-myth&p=2738231&viewfull=1#post2738231)

[Rugevit]

Scythian and Scythia are not one and the same.

kind of obvious.




This is like saying any one could have been Roman since Romans conquered vast lands.

Though non Scythian groups were included in the Empire, and the Europeans called anyone from Scythia "Scythians", just like they also called any West Iranic tribes "Persians" not matter if they were really Persians or Medes/Parthians, there is definitely one original Scythian group.

The Royal Scythian, from Ukraine/ Northwest Caucasus and the Saka in Central Asia. Those are the original Scythians.

Than you had several other tribal groups inside Scythia, who were not Scythians but the vast majority related Iranic tribes. Like the Dahae, Sogdians, Sarmatians, Bactrians, Kushan, Cimmerians and Massagetae (Massagetae are those who beat the Scythian and forced them to migrate into Cimmeria).

Later when the Scytjian gained the more power, the conquered some other tribes lands, like Siberia and the Ural Mountains, were they mixed with the locals (in Siberia especially with Turkic tribes).

Scythia and Scythian is exethnonym - a foreign Greek term applied to people living in the steppes. I was right about Scythian term applied to non related peoples living in the steppes. The original Scythians came from Turkmenia or Uzbekistan - east Iranic settlement before overan by Turkic nomads.

[Demhat]

kind of obvious.



Scythia and Scythian is exethnonym - a foreign Greek term applied to people living in the steppes. I was right about Scythian term applied to non related peoples living in the steppes. The original Scythians came from Turkmenia or Uzbekistan - east Iranic settlement before overan by Turkic nomads.

The point is that "Scythian in vast majority of cases was implied to other related East iranic tribes. As those I have listed above. The Uralic groups had not much of important role, nor did the Greeks came into contact with them when they spoke of Scythians. When the Turkic groups "overran" the Scythians. There wasn't anything called Scythian anymore so that this term might have applied to them.

All the Scythians the Greeks came in contact with were the Royal Scythians and lesser extend the Sakas. The Scythians were not dumb, they knew who the Sogdians, Massagetae and other groups inside Scythia were.

[Proto-Shaman]

Ever thought of doing a DNA test? Maybe you are descend of one of those blond turkish vikings.
Modern genetics already revealed that some Vikings had Kipchak ancestry.

The Genetic Link of the Viking – Era Norse to Central Asia: An Assessment of the Y Chromosome DNA, Archaeological, Historical and Linguistic Evidence, by David K. Faux. (http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsiaRootsofScandinavia-Y-DNAEvidence.pdf)

[Proto-Shaman]

Also by the way most oldshool scientists would classify the Pamirid type as an Iranic subtype which is most prevelant in Tajiks and predominantly Caucasian.
Pamirid is characterized by brachycephaly, short and broad face (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamirid_race). No chance being long faced Iranid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanid_race#Geographic_distribution) (dolichocephalic). Keep in mind, "oldshool" anthropologists such as Eickstedt included among the Turanids also the Mountain Tajiks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajiks_of_Xinjiang) and the Pamir tribes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamir_languages).

[Proto-Shaman]

This is because both have adopted it from Scythians,
So we stole our own culture? I love such a logic :thumb001:


Turkic tribes which were simply a merging of Iranic and Mongol tribes.
And Persian peoples were simply a merging of Dravidian and Turkic tribes? lol :picard2:

[War Chef]

http://www.praeparator.ch/inhalt/skythin_tattoo2gross.jpg

Such a huge mouth is only a guess and I bet it's far from from reality. Considering Scythians were predominately east-Europids of somekind they most likely had/have a small eastern European mouth:

http://i57.tinypic.com/blhk.jpg

^Believe it or not this is not a central Asian, but a N-E European. I've seen this face in all those "white people in central Asia" threads circulating the internet.

[Breedingvariety]

Small mouth is progressive.

[War Chef]

^ I meant to say, thin lips. Of course there are very often east-Euros with full lips too, like this:



http://i59.tinypic.com/2hpu248.jpg


I'd still say the majority look something like this:

http://i61.tinypic.com/33kqcd1.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/vyxx7c.jpg

For me, that's always been the easiest way to detect east Euros.

[Raven_]

http://www.praeparator.ch/inhalt/skythin_tattoo1gross.jpg

http://www.praeparator.ch/inhalt/skythin_tattoo3gross.jpg

"With such a soft-tissue reconstruction, purely based on the bone structure, we achieve an accuracy of 75 percent of the former appearance of the Scythian explains Marcel Nyffenegger. "The remaining 25 percent stays interpretation, as for example in our case were missing parts of the nasal bones and thereby facilitate accurate reconstruction was not possible." Likewise, it remains on the question of color of eyes, hair and skin scope for speculation.

http://www.praeparator.ch/150_d_rekonstruktionen.htm

I think this reconstruction was given large lips to create an impression of a smaller nose.

[War Chef]

^I just realized that is the famous Ukok ice maiden (http://strangesounds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/alIa9gq.jpg), ther was another reconstruction done that looks different:

http://i62.tinypic.com/ir3sdw.jpg

Anyway I wonder why they gave her darker hair, maybe they took into account oxidation of hair color?


Two British anthropologists, Brothwell and Spearman, have found evidence of cortex keratin oxidation in ancient Egyptian hair. They held that the mummification process was responsible because of the strong alkaline substance used. This resulted in the yellowing and browning of hair as well as the straightening effect.

The Science of ancient Egyptian hair and why it sometimes looks European
(https://sites.google.com/site/naomiastral/ancient-kemet/the-science-of-ancient-egyptian-hair)

[Breedingvariety]

The worst aspect of the reconstruction is big mouth. If there was normal mouth, it would be normal looking reconstruction.

[Rugevit]

Reconstructions of Scythians done by M. Gerasimov




http://www.dazzle.ru/spec/pic-173.jpg


http://img12.nnm.ru/5/d/b/4/d/00b0b89ce8ea3cb814febd518e9.jpg


http://s018.radikal.ru/i520/1202/28/c7903f14da14.jpg




Scythian Amazon (warrior woman)




http://newskif.su/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/64-%D0%A1%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%84%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0-IV-%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BA-%D0%B4%D0%BE-%D0%BD.-%D1%8D.-166x300.jpg



http://newskif.su/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/67-%D0%93%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D 0%B2-%D0%9C%D0%9C-%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D 1%83%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8-%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D 0%B8-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%B2-%D0%BF%D0%BE-%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%BC-150x150.jpg



Scythian from Dniepr region


http://newskif.su/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/66-%D0%A1%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%84-%D0%B8%D0%B7-%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BF%D1%80%D 0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8C%D1%8F-V-%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BA-%D0%B4%D0%BE-%D0%BD.-%D1%8D.-150x150.jpg



http://newskif.su/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/65-%D0%A1%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%84%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%B8%D0%B7-%D0%9C%D1%86%D1%85%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%8B-IX-%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BA-%D0%B4%D0%BE-%D0%BD.-%D1%8D.-150x150.jpg



Eastern Scythians from middle Asia.



http://newskif.su/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/69-%D0%93%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D 0%B2-%D0%A1%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D1%81%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B0%D0%B7%D 0%B8%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%84%D1%8B-150x150.jpg



http://newskif.su/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/610-%D0%93%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D 0%B2-%D0%A1%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D1%81%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B0%D0%B7%D 0%B8%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%84%D1%8B--150x150.jpg



Scythian king Skilur


http://newskif.su/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/62-%D0%A1%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%84%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9-%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8C-%D0%A1%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%83%D1%80-II-%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BA-%D0%B4%D0%BE-%D0%BD.-%D1%8D.-150x150.jpg


http://newskif.su/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/61-%D0%93%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D 0%B2-%D0%9C%D0%9C-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%84%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9-%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8C-%D0%A1%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%83%D1%80-%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D 1%83%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D0%93%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D 0%B2%D0%B0-150x150.jpg




Scythian kings Skillur and Palak


http://newskif.su/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/63-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%84%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5-%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D 0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8C%D1%8F-%D0%A1%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%83%D1%80-%D0%B8-%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BA-150x150.jpg





Scythian warriors


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Scythian_Warriors.jpg



http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6610/120217992.3/0_8a19b_c512b122_L.jpg



Death mask of a Scythian


http://s019.radikal.ru/i644/1204/8d/b29df38af157.jpg

[Rugevit]

More depictions of Scythians



http://s21.postimg.org/m1laihjbb/0b01acdc9a87577c8449ab0fda12bfd9.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/7fpoghx53/0b01cd5b5b23b0bfbdaee3b7275cf269.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/iod1vrpqf/0b01d2301a003e1746d44259405f4f5e.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/69lohp8uf/0b01d415081aea66b74607ebda76454b.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/lrdrz54p3/0b01e2c5402314588bb5520e72d01129.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/3kvh5esqv/0b01f0436d818b873c3c52d9e7ae3d81.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/5vkci3oqv/0b0107704dd7bc7ea567da70dae38c18.jpg (http://postimage.org/)




http://s21.postimg.org/6b07ov01v/0b012d14337ffebaff9205657288cc8c.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/lanyyyrk7/0b0147f284bc12a28b22856c5a0c4c1d.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/mse0o9lon/0b015bcfa0585f7cbdb8635956044baf.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/n8z8ap9fr/0b017397421cdaf20277d79209fedb80.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/t5yids16v/0b0184c7ee88416e95a990440fa3906b.gif (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/f7azssqo3/0b0187818fc95cb37281e1eea5530790.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/6jt711ngn/0b0401f7455841f0ece33e1d9fb95117.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/aewl3m6mf/0b0410f2e099aacb8e2d874a22d29dbd.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/8ffzc7cav/0b041404176b7ddd7c17049d47c6493a.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/3utsx9slj/0b046775434c1fad44ced20a85ef9ee5.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



http://s21.postimg.org/6wp6kyv47/0b049a7c87c55a584492408853fcd1ec.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

[Stears]

Yes, the facial flatnes is the clear sign of this. There are not Europids with a flat cheekbone like this. This is the almost Europid edge of the Europo-Mongoloid spectrum, where the characteristics of the skull show the mixed ancestry only. http://s27.postimg.org/grqxmiiw3/skythin_tattoo2gross.jpg gypsy, or cuman survivor minority? They are not ethnic Hungarians.

[Rugevit]

Huns — ancestors of Hungarians.




Hun reconstructed by Gerasimov



http://fictionbook.ru/static/bookimages/07/45/32/07453279.bin.dir/h/i_007.jpg




http://img11.nnm.me/d/3/f/f/4/f9db0383c440c8f475fca8bc728.jpg





Attilla — the king of Huns




http://slavyanskaya-kultura.ru/images/xa-1.jpg




http://s39.radikal.ru/i083/1102/9d/191ccf080028t.jpg




Skull deformation was a common practice among Huns aristocrats.




http://s09.radikal.ru/i182/1007/03/9a4c6ac22fdc.jpg




http://s44.radikal.ru/i106/0901/44/f35137bd94a2.jpg




Huns 4-5th AD , Slovenian



http://www.imageup.ru/img7/1654096/gunn1.jpg




http://www.imageup.ru/img7/1654097/gunn2.jpg




http://www.imageup.ru/img7/1654099/gunn3.jpg

[Vesuvian Sky]

By certain historical traditions, the Scythians are believed to have actually originated further east then where the Royal Scythians of present day Ukraine were. They are said to have displaced the Cimmerians who occupied the steppe lands of Ukraine prior to Scythian arrival.

So actually, you could perhaps say they did conquer land.

[Stears]

Huns — ancestors of Hungarians. Hun reconstructed by Gerasimov Wrong, Hungarians (our real name is MAGYAR) were not related with Huns. You can't cite any contemporary academic history book (university professors and members of scientific communities) who stated such an absurd stupidity.

[gültekin]

Wrong, Hungarians (our real name is MAGYAR) were not related with Huns. You can't cite any contemporary academic history book (university professors and members of scientific communities) who stated such an absurd stupidity.
https://istihbaratdunyasi.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/image0019.gif

[Stears]

https://istihbaratdunyasi.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/image0019.gif It is just the politically motivated Jobbik slogan, there are no scholars (historians linguists geneticists) behind it in Hungary or on this planet.

[Proto-Shaman]

there are no scholars (historians linguists geneticists) behind it in Hungary or on this planet.
http://31.media.tumblr.com/7c5668e33eb4155254f00d0257ca2cd8/tumblr_n7dlmfSHxa1r41unfo1_500.gif

[gültekin]

It is just the politically motivated Jobbik slogan, there are no scholars (historians linguists geneticists) behind it in Hungary or on this planet.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BjhAs9k_YGg/UJML5rAWqfI/AAAAAAAAAQQ/A1QqpQGJHVo/s1600/emo-okuz_11386_m.jpg

(Hn) fórumban sok horkolás ökör van
(Tur) forumda çok horlayan öküz var

There are many snoring ox in the forum (En)

[Stears]

Sorry I can not understand.

[Rugevit]

Wrong, Hungarians (our real name is MAGYAR) were not related with Huns. You can't cite any contemporary academic history book (university professors and members of scientific communities) who stated such an absurd stupidity.

It's possible Huns didn't identify themselves as Huns either. But they were Hungarians' ancestors. Deal with it.

[Stears]

It's possible Huns didn't identify themselves as Huns either. But they were Hungarians' ancestors. Deal with it. Please give me a reference from a contemporary academic historian.

[War Chef]

It's possible Huns didn't identify themselves as Huns either.

You are right, but etymology of Hungary comes from the word "Ugri" which was a Magyar ethnonym. What we know as Huns is derived from Greek "Hunnoi"..... The Russians refer to Huns as "Guni" and the Bulgarians call them "Khuni".... Both east-Slavs and Bulgarians had first hand contact with Huns so we should trust their name over western Greco-derived name of "Huns". The Slavs in Bulgaria are descendants of the Antes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_people), a mostly Slavic people with some Sarmatian and remants of Gothic people from Moldova / S-W Ukraine, they migrated to the Danubian plain (http://awsassets.panda.org/img/ldgc_map_4_417845.jpg) between 6th and 7th century after being hit by nomadic Avars and then they migrated to Bulgaria after becoming subjugates of Bulgars. Bulgarians today refer to their linguistic ancestors as the Seven Slavic Tribes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Slavic_tribes), which is more or less another word for Antes.


Although regarded as a predominantly Slavic tribal union, numerous other theories have arisen, especially with regard to the origins of their ruling core; including theories of a Gothic, Iranic and Slavic ruling nobility, or some mixture thereof.[7] Much dispute arose because of scant literary evidence: little is known apart from the tribal name itself and a handful of anthroponyms.

The name Antes itself does not appear to be Slavic, but is often held to be an Iranian word. Pritsak, citing Max Vasmer, argues that anta- means "frontier, end" (in Saskrit), thus *ant-ya could mean frontier-man.

The rest is all my conjecture and it goes something like this: "Gün" in Turkic languages means "sun", so the Huns referred to themselves as the “people of the sun”, probably because they chose to follow the setting sun, west.



Attilla — the king of Huns

http://slavyanskaya-kultura.ru/images/xa-1.jpg


This coin was made in Aquileia, Italy in the 1600's. Attila definitely didn't have curly hair, or such intense Caucasoid features.




Huns 4-5th AD , Slovenian

http://www.imageup.ru/img7/1654097/gunn2.jpg



This looks very Mongoloid, I would say like a Kazakh. If it's Slovenian maybe it's one of "Alenka's" ancestors.


^I just realized that is the famous Ukok ice maiden (http://strangesounds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/alIa9gq.jpg), ther was another reconstruction done that looks different:


I made a mistake. This (http://www.56thparallel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/mummy17n-1-web.jpg) is actually the Ukok Ice mummy the reconstruction is made from, not the picture I gave earlier, which is Pazyryk chieftain.... Sorry for the confusion.

[blogen]

You are right, but etymology of Hungary comes from the word "Ugri" which was a Magyar ethnonym.

No, not. Turkic Onogur (not the Magyars!) --> oŋġur --> Ǫgъr (g/h = Uhri) --> Oΰγγρoιΰ --> Ungri --> Ungar. Not connected to the Magyars, since this was a mistake between the Europeans. They named us after our predecessors in the south Russian steppe: the Onogurs.

Our self name is the Magyar and the old form of this was the Mäńćär in the ancient times. The Mäńćä was the Ugors self name before the Magyars, but after the separation the proto-Magyars name changed: mäńćä+[ä]r, so our present name was formed from two elements. The är was maybe the Aryans self name, since they were our southern neighbours and the Ugric-Aryan mixing affected all proto-Magyar and Magyar archaeological culture in the iron age and the ancient times (Pamokhovo, Cherkaskul, Sargat). The old Ob-Ugric self name and one of the present Ob-Ugric folk's name is the Mānśi.

[Rugevit]

This looks very Mongoloid, I would say like a Kazakh. If it's Slovenian maybe it's one of "Alenka's" ancestors.



Alenka's ancestors came from Poland or Belarus. Original Ugric were Uralic with Mongoloid admixture. Huns came from Asia just before Turkic nomads became prominent, who were also Mongoloid akin to aboriginal people of Altay.

[blogen]

Alenka's ancestors came from Poland or Belarus. Original Ugric were Uralic with Mongoloid admixture. Huns came from Asia just before Turkic nomads became prominent, who were also Mongoloid akin to aboriginal people of Altay.

The Uralid is an Europo-Mongoloid type, basically Baltid+Mongoloid.

[Proto-Shaman]

No, not. Turkic Onogur (not the Magyars!) --> oŋġur --> Ǫgъr (g/h = Uhri) --> Oΰγγρoιΰ --> Ungri --> Ungar. Not connected to the Magyars, since this was a mistake between the Europeans. They named us after our predecessors in the south Russian steppe: the Onogurs.

Our self name is the Magyar and the old form of this was the Mäńćär in the ancient times. The Mäńćä was the Ugors self name before the Magyars, but after the separation the proto-Magyars name changed: mäńćä+[ä]r, so our present name was formed from two elements. The är was maybe the Aryans self name, since they were our southern neighbours and the Ugric-Aryan mixing affected all proto-Magyar and Magyar archaeological culture in the iron age and the ancient times (Pamokhovo, Cherkaskul, Sargat). The old Ob-Ugric self name and one of the present Ob-Ugric folk's name is the Mānśi.
HEY WANNA BE ARYAN!!! :cool:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megyer

"Megyer is an old Hungarian male given name, derived from Mogyer, the name of the leading Hungarian tribe and has of Finno-Ugric or Turkic origin."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_prehistory#Ethnonym

"The assumed ar element of the word may be either of Ugric or Turkic origin and it probably means "man",[1][3] compare common Proto-Uralic word root *arV ("(younger) brother of mother") which gave Hungarian ara ("bride, brother of the mother"), and the common Proto-Altaic word root *ā́ri, *ḗra ("man") which gave Proto-Turkic *ēr ("man") and probably borrowed into Proto-Mongolic *ere ("male, man").[26] Those who assume that the expression ar originated from a Turkic language, also think that it may refer to a Turkic tribe that joined to a group of the proto-Ugric peoples and thus the two groups formed the Magyar people.[3]"

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/magyar#Hungarian

"From Old Hungarian mogyër.

The first element (mogy-) is likely from a Proto-Ugric *mańć- (“man, person”), also found in the name of the Mansi (mäńćī, mańśi, måńś).

The second element -ër "man" is cognate with either Finnish yrkö (“man”). It is from Proto-Uralic *irkä or *ürkä (“man, son, boy”)"

also compare...
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/u%CC%81r#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/uros#Finnish

Hungarian úr:
"From Proto-Ugric *ŭra, which comes from Proto-Finno-Ugric *ura. Ultimately from Proto-Uralic *ura (“man, male”). Cognate with Finnish uros (“male, adult man, hero”)."

Finnish uros:
"From Proto-Finno-Ugric *ura, from Proto-Uralic *urV, *ura ("man, male"). Cognate with Hungarian úr ("Mr, lord; man, husband, prince"), hence Hungarian orszag ("land, realm, state", perhaps from either Turkic or Iranian), and Sami årēs ("little man, male")."

[blogen]

"[I]The assumed ar element of the word may be either of Ugric or Turkic origin and it probably means "man"

And this is a serious problem, since the Mäńćä origin from the early Iranian Manuš = man, so the mäńćä+[ä]r would be man+man. This is a meaningless hypothesis because of this. And the Mäńćär is an ancient origin Hungarian self name, before the Hungarian-Turkic contact, but after the Ugric disintegration, since the Ugors self name formed an other direction (Mānśi) before the Ob-Ugric disintegration in the early centuries AD. Since there is no sign of the common development, the Hungarians and the Ob-Ugrics name was differentated somewhere between the second and the first millennia BC. And at this time our not Uralic neighbous were the various Iranian folks and not the Turkics.

ps. The Magyar and the Megyer is not the same word. Same origin, but different name. The Megyer was a tribe, the Magyar the folk name. The reason of the differentation onto Magyar and Megyer was the vowel equation because of the vowel harmony in the Hungarian language. The "a" is a deep, but the "e" is a high vowel. The Hungarian language does not do mixed words except the compound words, but if a syllable is strange origin (loandword) then generally equalize the sound onto only deep or high vowels. The two versions (magyar/megyer) is the evidence onto the different sound of the two syllables.

So presumably this was the timeline:

Ugric age before 2nd millenia BC: Mäńćä or Māńćā
disintegration between 2nd-1st millenia BC:
- Ob Ugric: Māńćā
- proto Magyar: Māńćā or Māńćā+[ä]r
ancient period between 1st millenia BC and 0AD:
- Ob Ugric: Mānśi
- Magyar: Māńćā+[ä]r and two versions arise quickly: Māńćār and Mäńćär
early medieval: Madjar/Medjer
medieval: Magyar/Megyer after the dzs(ʤ)/gy(ɟ)

So presumably both name, the Magyar folk name and the Megyer tribal name is ancient origin and definetely before the Turkic contacts.


HEY WANNA BE ARYAN!!! :cool:

They were our neighbours between the 3rd millinia BC and the 2-3th century AD. This was three thousand years direct contact between the Indo-Iranians and the Ugors/Magyars.

[Rugevit]

They were our neighbours between the 3rd millinia BC and the 2-3th century AD. This was three thousand years direct contact between the Indo-Iranians and the Ugors/Magyars.

AR1ain descendants are your current neighbours. They live on the land roamed by Scythians and Sarmatians too.

[blogen]

AR1ain descendants are your current neighbours. They live on the land roamed by Scythians and Sarmatians too.

We do not have Aryan neighbours, except the Romanians if you was sarcastic. :D

[Proto-Shaman]

And this is a serious problem, since the Mäńćä origin from the early Iranian Manuš = man, so the mäńćä+[ä]r would be man+man. This is a meaningless hypothesis because of this.
From where do we know it originated from Iranian Manuš? Maybe it originated from:

proto-Uralic: *mańćV ('man, person')
proto-Uralic: *mēs/śe ('man')
proto-Dravidian: *māc- ('man')
proto-Altaic: *mḕnò ('self, body'), *meŋu ('whole, body'), which is hard to distinguish from reflexes of Nostratic *mänV (http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+310&root=config) 'man, person'.

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2furalic%2furalet&text_number=1820&root=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+1460&root=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+711&root=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2faltet&text_number=1293&root=config


Since there is no sign of the common development, the Hungarians and the Ob-Ugrics name was differentated somewhere between the second and the first millennia BC. And at this time our not Uralic neighbous were the various Iranian folks and not the Turkics.
...

So presumably both name, the Magyar folk name and the Megyer tribal name is ancient origin and definetely before the Turkic contacts.
...

They were our neighbours between the 3rd millinia BC and the 2-3th century AD. This was three thousand years direct contact between the Indo-Iranians and the Ugors/Magyars.
According to Mario Alinei's Paleolithic Continuity Theory (http://www.continuitas.org/texts/alinei_interdisciplinary.pdf) the use of borrowed Turkic words in horse terminology, such as qaptï ("to grab with hands and teeth"), yabu ("horse"), yam ("nomadic caravan-tent"), yuntă ("horse" (generic)), aygur ("stallion"), homut ("horse collar") and alaša ("pack horse"), in Samoyedic (Northern and Southern), in some Finno-Ugric languages and Slavic languages, proves the antiquity of Turkic presence in the European area bordering Asia. Horse terminology in the European area bordering Asia and in most of Eastern Europe is rooted in Turkic and not Indo-European (nor Iranian) vocabulary.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=48501&d=1403560167

This would be in good agreement with PIE *marḱ- (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/mar%E1%B8%B1-#Etymology) ("horse") and PIE *éḱwos (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%81%C3%A9%E1%B8%B1wos#Etymology) ("stallion, horse") which are both possibly borrowed from an early Altaic source, associated to horse riding in the Bronze Age.

[blogen]

From where do we know it originated from Iranian Manuš? Maybe it originated from:

proto-Uralic: *mańćV ('man, person')

Totally fals, This Uralic word did not exist, since this word exists in the Ugric languages only. (http://www.uralonet.nytud.hu/eintrag.cgi?id_eintrag=1799)


According to [URL="http://www.continuitas.org/texts/alinei_interdisciplinary.pdf"]Mario Alinei

Oh. :D

Mario Alinei is a joke, nobody deals with him in Hungary from among the linguists.

[Proto-Shaman]

Totally fals, This Uralic word did not exist, since this word exists in the Ugric languages only. (http://www.uralonet.nytud.hu/eintrag.cgi?id_eintrag=1799)
Finnish mies (gen. miehen) 'man' is often included, but disputed.


Oh. :D
Mario Alinei is a joke, nobody deals with him in Hungary from among the linguists.
Why?

[blogen]

Why?

Since he is a full measure ignorant on the area of the linguistics and because of this his translated writings are exceptionally ridiculous funny readings between the educated Hungarians. He does not know fundamental things about the Hungarian language, the word order, the vowel fitting regime and even the the sound value of the Hungarian letters! :D

[Proto-Shaman]

Since he is a full measure ignorant on the area of the linguistics and because of this his translated writings are exceptionally ridiculous funny readings between the educated Hungarians. He does not know fundamental things about the Hungarian language, the word order, the vowel fitting regime and even the the sound value of the Hungarian letters! :D
And you think European clowns are doing good in >R1a'zing< a R1b culture?

[blogen]

And you think European clowns are doing good in >R1a'zing< a R1b culture?

?

[Proto-Shaman]

?
Gimbutas' Kurgan theory.

[blogen]

Gimbutas' Kurgan theory.

Mostly the Americans believe in this, what is not surprise, since generally their knowledge is fractional from the European prehistory.

[Rugevit]

Hangarians also want to be part of R1alpha clan? Good choice. :)

[Proto-Shaman]

Mostly the Americans believe in this, what is not surprise, since generally their knowledge is fractional from the European prehistory.
Americans (Anglo-Saxons) are of European descent. The first IE specialists – imbued with European colonialism of the 19th century - chose to see the Proto-Indo-Europeans as a superior race of warriors and colonizers, who would have conquered the allegedly "pre-IE" Neolithic Europe in the Copper Age, and brought their 'superior' civilization to it. After WW2, with the end of Nazi ideology, a new variant of the traditional scenario (i.e. scenario "imbued with European colonialism of the 19th century"), which soon became the new canonic IE theory, was introduced by Marija Gimbutas, an ardent Baltic nationalist: the PIE Battle-Axe super-warriors were best represented by Baltic élites, instead of Germanic ones (Gimbutas 1970, 1973, 1977, 1979, 1980). Interestingly, also the central idea of the NDT, namely that the inventors of farming were the Indo-Europeans, rather than the 'real' Middle-Eastern, Sumerian and/or Semitic, people, is yet another vein of this often unwitting ethnocentrism that runs through the history of research on IE origins.

[Rugevit]

Hungarians only have 21 out 113 ~ 18.6% of R1a1* according the latest study on R1a haplogroup done by Underhill et al. (2014) : http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg201450x5.xls

Hungarians are not AR1ayn descendants.

[blogen]

Americans (Anglo-Saxons) are of European descent. The first IE specialists – imbued with European colonialism of the 19th century - chose to see the Proto-Indo-Europeans as a superior race of warriors and colonizers, who would have conquered the allegedly "pre-IE" Neolithic Europe in the Copper Age, and brought their 'superior' civilization to it. After WW2, with the end of Nazi ideology, a new variant of the traditional scenario (i.e. scenario "imbued with European colonialism of the 19th century"), which soon became the new canonic IE theory, was introduced by Marija Gimbutas, an ardent Baltic nationalist: the PIE Battle-Axe super-warriors were best represented by Baltic élites, instead of Germanic ones (Gimbutas 1970, 1973, 1977, 1979, 1980). Interestingly, also the central idea of the NDT, namely that the inventors of farming were the Indo-Europeans, rather than the 'real' Middle-Eastern, Sumerian and/or Semitic, people, is yet another vein of this often unwitting ethnocentrism that runs through the history of research on IE origins.

Canonic my ass. And Marija Gimbutas were a leftist feminist and this was the reason her theories' spread in the american universities. The social science ruled these univs and not the real science.

[Proto-Shaman]

Canonic my ass. And Marija Gimbutas were a leftist feminist and this was the reason her theories' spread in the american universities. The social science ruled these univs and not the real science.
What I initially wanted to say is that it was shown by genetic dating that Marija Gimbutas confused two migration flows in opposite directions and separated by a full millennia, both crossing Eastern Europe, but originating and terminating in the opposite ends of Eurasia (e.g. A. Klyosov, G.Tomezzoli, DNA Genealogy and Linguistics. Ancient Europe // Advances in Anthropology, 2013. Vol.3, No.2, pp. 101-111 (http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=31366#.U61c-Pl_suc), and all prior related publications). The genetic analysis was first published in 2010, and the material accumulated since then invariably reinforces the genetic tracing and dating. Gimbutas could not have known that, she did not use biological data in her reconstruction. Her problem was not in the data she had available, the data was perfectly solid, but in the ideologically biased interpretation.

[blogen]

Hungarians only have 21 out 113 ~ 18.6% of R1a1* according the latest study on R1a haplogroup done by Underhill et al. (2014) : http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg201450x5.xls
Hungarians are not AR1ayn descendants.

Damn right not, we are Uralians. Great part of the Aryans were Uralian descendants from Western Siberia, since the Yamna expansion conquered proto-Ugric cultures (Tersek, Botai, etc.) here and the mixed population was the base of the Andronovo population.

Anyway: R1a between the Magyars are 25,6% based on the last good sample* (215). So, somewhere around ~25%.

*Völgyi, Antónia; Zalán, Andrea; Szvetnik, Enikő; Pamjav, Horolma (2009). "Hungarian population data for 11 Y-STR and 49 Y-SNP markers". Forensic Science International: Genetics, 2008

[Äijä]

HEY WANNA BE ARYAN!!! :cool:



Finnish is an archaic Uralic langage and our word for slave means Aryan originally, so Aryans where the slaves of the Uralics.

[Proto-Shaman]

Finnish is an archaic Uralic langage and our word for slave means Aryan originally, so Aryans where the slaves of the Uralics.
Cool I didn't know that :rolleyes:

[Rugevit]

Damn right not, we are Uralians. Great part of the Aryans were Uralian descendants from Western Siberia, since the Yamna expansion conquered proto-Ugric cultures (Tersek, Botai, etc.) here and the mixed population was the base of the Andronovo population.

Anyway: R1a between the Magyars are 25,6% based on the last good sample* (215). So, somewhere around ~25%.

*Völgyi, Antónia; Zalán, Andrea; Szvetnik, Enikő; Pamjav, Horolma (2009). "Hungarian population data for 11 Y-STR and 49 Y-SNP markers". Forensic Science International: Genetics, 2008

If you say so. I don't know much about Ugric. I know Hanty and Mansi are you linquistic kins having foreign physical appearance for Europeans. A lot of people believe Hungarians are languages shifters. Their central European ancestors switched to Hungarian, the same way ancestors of Romanians, French, Spaniards and Portuguese switched to the language of the ruling Roman army.

[Rugevit]

Finnish is an archaic Uralic langage and our word for slave means Aryan originally, so Aryans where the slaves of the Uralics.

Do you want to know what Cornelius Tacitus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus) wrote about Fenni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni) of North-eastern Europe after visiting eastern Europe in 98AD?

Tacticus was astonished about the wildness and miserable poverty of Fenni people. "Their food is grass; their clothes are animal skins; their bedding is ground. They hunt using bone arrowheads."(Tac. Germ. 46). Finns were herding reindeers at the time Aryans were conquering most of Europe.

[blogen]

If you say so. I don't know much about Ugric. I know Hanty and Mansi are you linquistic kins having foreign physical appearance for Europeans. A lot of people believe Hungarians are languages shifters. Their central European ancestors switched to Hungarian, the same way ancestors of Romanians, French, Spaniards and Portuguese switched to the language of the ruling Roman army.

Baseless urban legend. A great scale metisation happened in the medieval Carpathian basin. Basically two third of the Hungarians have conqueror ancestors and conquered ancestors too. The other one third's majority presumably the non conqueror origin Magyar. And this was the ethnic situation in the 11th century (http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/6641/ulum.jpg), since the Magyars conquered an almost uninhabited plain with a Slavic majority in the perifpherical hilly lands. The feudalization (from pastoralism with few agriculture to agriculture with few pastoralism change in the 10-11th century) and the population explosion made the area Hungarian and not the mass assimilation. The majority of the conquered Slavs never assimilated, but they were the ancestors of the Slovaks and Slavonians.

[Rugevit]

Baseless urban legend. A great scale metisation happened in the medieval Carpathian basin. Basically two third of the Hungarians have conqueror ancestors and conquered ancestors too. The other one third's majority presumably the non conqueror origin Magyar. And this was the ethnic situation in the 11th century (http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/6641/ulum.jpg), since the Magyars conquered an almost uninhabited plain with a Slavic majority in the perifpherical hilly lands. The feudalization (from pastoralism with few agriculture to agriculture with few pastoralism change in the 10-11th century) and the population explosion made the area Hungarian and not the mass assimilation. The majority of the conquered Slavs never assimilated, but they were the ancestors of the Slovaks and Slavonians.


How do you explain the fact modern Hungarian population is speaking Ugric language, which is found thousands kilometres away from central Europe in western Siberia, while being surrounded by Indo-European speaking peoples, who are also genetically similar to Hungarians on autosomal DNA? Unless you can prove genetic similarities between central Europeans and Ugrians from western Siberia, it will be difficult to convince people holding an opinion that Hungarian ancestors were not language shifters. Language shifty was not unusual for many European peoples as you know.

This is a map based on MDLP 22 data. You can search for autosomal DNA analysis on Hungarian population if you wish : http://postimg.org/image/5t3d2j8mf/full/

[blogen]

How do you explain the fact modern Hungarian population is speaking Ugric language, which is found thousands kilometres away from central Europe in western Siberia, while being surrounded by Indo-European speaking peoples, who are also genetically similar to Hungarians on autosomal DNA? Unless you can prove genetic similarities between central Europeans and Ugrians from western Siberia, it will be difficult to convince people holding an opinion that Hungarian ancestors were not language shifters. Language shifty was not unusual for many European peoples as you know.

Not quite similar. The Hungarians are basically Eastern, East-Central Europeans genetically and not central or southern. And the conqueror population were genetically Eastern European too! The contemporary and the conqueror mtDNA sample are very close for example. (http://s23.postimg.org/amxwic62z/rasko04.jpg)

Again. The language shifting is a baseless urban legend in the Hungarians case.


This is a map based on MDLP 22 data. You can search for autosomal DNA analysis on Hungarian population if you wish : http://postimg.org/image/5t3d2j8mf/full/

And the source onto the research with the sample size, representativity, etc? Since we had a great failure (the non representative Semino sample in the Y-DNA) in this business.

[Rugevit]

Not quite similar. The Hungarians are basically Eastern, East-Central Europeans genetically and not central or southern. And the conqueror population were genetically Eastern European too! The contemporary and the conqueror mtDNA sample are very close for example. (http://s23.postimg.org/amxwic62z/rasko04.jpg)

It's not about east/central or east-central or south-eastern Europe definition. On the genetic map of Europe all populations from the region are quite similar in comparison to Ugrians or other populations from western Siberia.



Again. The language shifting is a baseless urban legend in the Hungarians case.


More likely inconvenient truth for you. But you can believe whatever you want to believe.



And the source onto the research with the sample size, representativity, etc? Since we had a great failure (the non representative Semino sample in the Y-DNA) in this business.

MDLP project maintainer collected samples made available to public by scientific studies.


The population dataset of MDLP World22 calculator.

The reference population dataset of the calculator was assembled in PLINK by intersecting and thinning the samples from different data sources: HapMap 3 (the filtered dataset CEU,YRI,JPT,CHB), 1000genomes, Rasmussen et al. (2010), HGDP (Stanford) (all populations), Metspalu et al. (2011),Yunusbayev et al. (2011), Chaubey et al. (2010) etc. Furthermore i handpicked random 10 individuals from each European country panel in POPRES dataset, or the maximum number of individuals available otherwise, to select the POPRES European individuals to be included in our study. Finally, in order to evaluate the correlation between the modern and the ancient genetic diversity, i have also included ancient DNA genomic samples of Ötzi,(Keller et al.(2012)) Swedish Neolithic samples Gök4, Ajv52, Ajv70, Ire8, Ste7 (Skoglund et al. (2012)) and 2 La Braña individuals from the Mesolithic sites of the Iberian Peninsula (Sánchez-Quinto et al.(2012)). Then i added 90 samples of individuals-participants of our MDLP project. After merging the aforementioned datasets and thinning the SNP set with PLINK command to exclude SNPs with missing rates greater than 1% and minor alleles, i filtered out duplicates, the individuals with high pairwise IBD-sharing (estimated in Plink as as the average fraction of alleles shared between two individuals over all loci) and the individuals with kinship coefficient suggesting relatedness (kinship coefficients were estimated in KING software). Also i had to filter out individuals with more more tham 3 standard deviations from the population averages. Since kinship coefficient is robustly estimated by HWE (Hary-Weinberg expectations) among SNPs with the same underlying allele frequencies, SNPs showing strong deviation (p < 5.5 x10−8) from Hardy-Weinberg expectations were removed from the merged and filtered dataset. After that I filtered to keep the list of common SNPs present in Illumina/Affymetrix chips and performed linkage disequilibrium based pruning using a window size of 50, a step of 5 and r^2 threshold of 0.3.

This complex sequence of consequent operations with the initial reference and project datasets yielded a final dataset which included 80751 SNPs in 2516 individuals from 225 populations.

Source: http://magnusducatus.blogspot.com/2012/09/behind-curtains-mdlp-world-22-showcase.html



The next plot is from 'Genes mirror geography within Europe' (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7218/full/nature07331.html) study which conforms the plot from MDLP project data for Hungarian population. : See page 11 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7218/extref/nature07331-s1.pdf)


http://s17.postimg.org/41rpuuvcf/gene_mirror.png

[Fakirbakir]

How do you explain the fact modern Hungarian population is speaking Ugric language, which is found thousands kilometres away from central Europe in western Siberia, while being surrounded by Indo-European speaking peoples, who are also genetically similar to Hungarians on autosomal DNA? Unless you can prove genetic similarities between central Europeans and Ugrians from western Siberia, it will be difficult to convince people holding an opinion that Hungarian ancestors were not language shifters. Language shifty was not unusual for many European peoples as you know.

This is a map based on MDLP 22 data. You can search for autosomal DNA analysis on Hungarian population if you wish : http://postimg.org/image/5t3d2j8mf/full/
The Hungarian R1a samples are quite close to the Finno-Ugric Udmurts and Komis (Underhill).
http://www.imagesup.net/?di=1614043400449

[Rugevit]

The Hungarian R1a samples are quite close to the Finno-Ugric Udmurts and Komis (Underhill).

I see R1a clade distribution for Hungarians being similar Beduins, and I see R1a clade distribution for Germany being similar to Komis and Udmurts. What does the distribution of R1a clades show about genetic similarities of the populations? It doesn't show much.

[Fakirbakir]

But you can believe whatever you want to believe.


It is not about belief.

How would you explain the survival of Hungarian language? According to demographic researches, the majority of the population (up to 90 percent -- Potter, The New Cambridge modern history: The Renaissance, 1493-1520, p. 405) were ethnic Hungarians in the Late Middle Ages. Moreover, the Latin had been the language of education and administration since 1000 AD in the Kingdom of Hungary.

The proto-Ugrians (Sargat culture) at the Ural Mountains were already a mixture of "European" and "Asian" haplogroups:

"The Sargat culture was located in the forest-steppe region of southwestern Siberia, near what is now the border of Russia and northern Kazakhstan, from around the 5th century BC until the 5th century AD. It is associated with a number of similar archaeological cultures in the region from the same period or slightly preceding it, for example, the Gorokhovo, Iktul, and Baitovo. The Sargat culture is also known for containing a number of kurgan burials (Koryakova and Daire 2000; Matveeva 2000; Andrey Shpitonkov et al., personal communication, 2004), and roughly half of all graves contain the remains of horse harnesses (Koryakova 2000). On the basis of archaeological evidence, the Sargat culture has been ascribed to a zone of intermixture between the Iranian steppe peoples to the south, such as the Saka or Sarmatians, and native Ugrian and/or Siberian populations (Koryakova and Daire 2000; Matveeva 2000; Andrey Shpitonkov et al., personal communication, 2004). Previous craniological research has also suggested some intrusion of Iranian peoples from the south (Matveeva 2000)."
". The kurgan burial included a tooth and a rib sample, which resulted in a sequence belonging to haplogroup T (more specifically, T1). "
"Mitochondrial DNA from 14 archaeological samples at the Ural State University in Yekaterinburg, Russia, was extracted to test the feasibility of ancient DNA work on their collection. These samples come from a number of sites that fall into two groupings. Seven samples are from three sites, dating to the 8th-12th century AD, that belong to a northern group of what are thought to be Ugrians, who lived along the Ural Mountains in northwestern Siberia. The remaining seven samples are from two sites that belong to a southern group representing the Sargat culture, dating between roughly the 5th century BC and the 5th century AD, from southwestern Siberia near the Ural Mountains and the present-day Kazakhstan border. The samples are derived from several burial types, including kurgan burials. They also represent a number of different skeletal elements and a range of observed preservation. The northern sites repeatedly failed to amplify after multiple extraction and amplification attempts, but the samples from the southern sites were successfully extracted and amplified. The sequences obtained from the southern sites support the hypothesis that the Sargat culture was a potential zone of intermixture between native Ugrian and/or Siberian populations and steppe peoples from the south, possibly early Iranian or Indo-Iranian, which has been previously suggested by archaeological analysis."

The "European component" in the 10th century samples was between 75 (richer graves) and 95 (poorer graves) percent. You should not forget that the Khanty and Mansi peoples (linguistically the closest to Hungarians) were Andronoid folks from the steppes and migrated to Siberia around 500 AD where they heavily mixed with Paleosiberians. Proto-Magyars were Andronoids too.

10th century samples:
(1, 10th century--all samples together-- 2, samples of cemetery of Harta 3, the samples of the richer graves ---"presumably conqueror warriors"--- 4, poorer graves 5, present day Hungarian samples 6, present day Szekler samples.)
http://www.imagesup.net/?di=1614043416681

[Rugevit]

It is not about belief.

I am a neutral observer presenting dry facts available from genetic studies on Hungarian population. Hungarian population is genetically similar to those of Austria, Croatia and Slovenia, while being very distant to western Siberian or Uralic - the region from which Ugric army arrived. Possibly many peoples joined Ugric army on migration route along the way. It's also known many European such as Romanians switched to the language of the ruling army. So, make your mind.

[blogen]

It's not about east/central or east-central or south-eastern Europe definition. On the genetic map of Europe all populations from the region are quite similar in comparison to Ugrians or other populations from western Siberia.

The present Ugrians are not the ancient Ugrians and definitely not the Hungarian conquerors.


More likely inconvenient truth for you. But you can believe whatever you want to believe.

We do not have faith on this space, we are not racist as our neighbours, so we do not have problem with the white blood.


MDLP project maintainer collected samples made available to public by scientific studies.


The next plot is from 'Genes mirror geography within Europe' (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7218/full/nature07331.html) study which conforms the plot from MDLP project data for Hungarian population. : See page 11 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7218/extref/nature07331-s1.pdf)

This is joke: Hungary n=19 and not a representative sample. :D

Again! Yes, our sample is an Eastern European sample, this is not surprising for us. These are the results of the anthropological examinations from the conquest age. The sizes of the know Hungarian samples:

~50 000 anthropological, modern (measured living persons) - 20th century
~10 000 anthropological, archaeological (bones) - medieval
~10 000 anthropological, archaeological (bones) - 10th century
~1000 genetical, modern paternal/maternal (from hair) - 21th century
~100 genetical, archaeological paternal/maternal (from bones) - 10th century
~20 genetical, modern other - 21th century

And the basic outline of the results of the anthropology:
- 10th century conqueror: dominantly Europids (the closest samples are Eastern European samples) with an Europo-Mongoloid (~10-20%) component. The genetic lineages were dominantly Eastern Europeans, except in the elite, where an Eastern Eurasian layer existed (~10%) too.
- medieval Magyar: metisation onto an almost Europid Europo-Mongoloid majority
- modern Magyar: 60% almost Europid Europo-Mongoloid and 40% clear Europid. The genetic lineages are dominantly Eastern European with a significant Central European layer, the Eastern Eurasian layer is unsignificant (~1-2%).

So not a surprise for me, that our sample is Eastern European basically. This was the situation in the 10th century too between the conquerors. They were not Mongols or not the relatives of the contemporary Ob Uralic peoples, since the contemporary Ob Uralic pepoles were not identical with the ancient Magyars and the ancient and early medieval Magyars were a typical Eastern European steppic population and not an East Eurasian.

The Hungarian conquerors were absolute dominantly Eastern European steppic peoples with a few Europo-Mongoloid racial and East Eurasian genetical component.

Look at the samples now again then and please be looking for representative samples! Since 19 size sample is only theoretically sample. Maybe the result is accidentally nearly, maybe not, but useless. The useful results interest us, we are not Romanians where stopped the examinations the cultural minister since he was afraid of the political consequences if the sample not supported their political theories about the history.

[Äijä]

Do you want to know what Cornelius Tacitus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus) wrote about Fenni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni) of North-eastern Europe after visiting eastern Europe in 98AD?

Tacticus was astonished about the wildness and miserable poverty of Fenni people. "Their food is grass; their clothes are animal skins; their bedding is ground. They hunt using bone arrowheads."(Tac. Germ. 46). Finns were herding reindeers at the time Aryans were conquering most of Europe.


Accept those are not the ancestors of Finns.

We where farming and trading like rest of the people.

What is your ethnicity?

[Äijä]

Tacticus was astonished about the wildness and miserable poverty of Fenni people. "Their food is grass; their clothes are animal skins; their bedding is ground. They hunt using bone arrowheads."(Tac. Germ. 46). Finns were herding reindeers at the time Aryans were conquering most of Europe.



http://www.nba.fi/fi/Image/4797/rk-2-rautaesinekatko.jpg

http://www.nba.fi/fi/Image/4798/rk-4-savukosken-tikareita.jpg

http://www.nba.fi/fi/Image/4799/rk-6-juomasarvi.jpg

http://www.nba.fi/fi/Image/4668/rk-10-elainpaarengas.jpg

So these Fenni using bone arrows conquered the people living in Finland at the time of Tacitus? :rolleyes:

[Rugevit]

http://www.nba.fi/fi/Image/4797/rk-2-rautaesinekatko.jpg

http://www.nba.fi/fi/Image/4798/rk-4-savukosken-tikareita.jpg

http://www.nba.fi/fi/Image/4799/rk-6-juomasarvi.jpg

http://www.nba.fi/fi/Image/4668/rk-10-elainpaarengas.jpg

So these Fenni using bone arrows conquered the people living in Finland at the time of Tacitus?



You need to provide references for the artefacts. Place of discovery, dating and ethnic attribution if any or I would believe Tacitus. :rolleyes:

[Rugevit]

Look at the samples now again then and please be looking for representative samples! Since 19 size sample is only theoretically sample. Maybe the result is accidentally nearly, maybe not, but useless. The useful results interest us, we are not Romanians where stopped the examinations the cultural minister since he was afraid of the political consequences if the sample not supported their political theories about the history.

A small sample from a scientific study is better than a hearsay from a biased folk on TA. Don't you agree? Besides, I provided a link to another study " 'Genes mirror geography within Europe' which conform the results from MDLP.

[Rugevit]

We where farming and trading like rest of the people.

What could one possibly grow in Finland given 2000 year old technology in a place like Finland? Not only Finland has a cold climate it has little fertile land. Reindeer herding, hunting and fishing were doing your folks 2,000 years ago :rolleyes:

[Äijä]

You need to provide references for the artefacts. Place of discovery, dating and ethnic attribution if any or I would believe Tacitus. :rolleyes:

They are from Finland in that period, gold one is Germanic most likely from West Finland, those daggers look more Eastern from Lapland, the glass is Roman from West Finland.

So Germanics where living in Finland, then these Fenni came swimming (no ships naturally) from Estonia armed with bone arrows and conquered them?

[Äijä]

What could one possibly grow in Finland given 2000 year old technology in a place like Finland? Not only Finland has a cold climate it has little fertile land. Reindeer herding, hunting and fishing were doing your folks 2,000 years ago :rolleyes:

You would have to ask the stone age folk farming in Lapland. :picard1:

[Rugevit]

They are from Finland in that period, gold one is Germanic most likely from West Finland, those daggers look more Eastern from Lapland, the glass is Roman from West Finland.

So Germanics where living in Finland, then these Fenni came swimming (no ships naturally) from Estonia armed with bone arrows and conquered them?

Okay! Germanic settled in south-western Finland brining civilisation to your ancestors. But Germanic were not Finnic, you see. Lots of places in northern Europe have Roman and Arab coins doesn't mean people in those places were making the coins.

[Rugevit]

You would have to ask the stone age folk farming in Lapland. :picard1:

I am asking you what could people possibly grow in a cold place with little fertile land such as Finland. Your ancestors were hunters & gathers. Some farming was marginal activity. I am still unsure what could people grow in Finland given the conditions.

[blogen]

A small sample from a scientific study is better than a hearsay from a biased folk on TA. Don't you agree? Besides, I provided a link to another study " 'Genes mirror geography within Europe' which conform the results from MDLP.

This is your problem and an unrepresentative sample is simply useless. Nobody agree with a 19 size sample! :D

And on this study look at the page 13!

[blogen]

Okay! Germanic settled in south-western Finland brining civilisation to your ancestors. But Germanic were not Finnic, you see. Lots of places in northern Europe have Roman and Arab coins doesn't mean people in those places were making the coins.

Germanic settled in the medieval times. The Corded peoples in Finnland was proto-Baltic peoples once, before the Fennic "counterattack". The Battle axe culture conquered Southern Finnland, but the local peoples learn from them and soon they reconquered the coasts and they conquered the lands until the Dvina towards south. This is the present Eastonia-Latvian ethnic border and presumably this is one of the oldest solid ethnic border in Europe.

So these artifacts were Fennic.

[Rugevit]

This is your problem and an unrepresentative sample is simply useless. Nobody agree with a 19 size sample! :D

And on this study look at the page 13!


A larger sample size diminishes the margin of error. In other words, there's a larger margin of error for a sample size of 19. Still, the results for this sample are not like it'll produce completely different set of admixture components, which would have placed Hungarians in Ural region.

[Äijä]

I am asking you what could people possibly grow in a cold place with little fertile land such as Finland. Your ancestors were hunters & gathers. Some farming was marginal activity. I am still unsure what could people grow in Finland given the conditions.


They used slaves like you to turn the land and shovel the shit.

[blogen]

A larger sample size diminishes the margin of error. In other words, there's a larger margin of error for a sample size of 19.

The margin of error is larger in percentage in a 19 size sample than the size of this sample. :D


Still, the results for this sample are not like it'll produce completely different set of admixture components, which would have placed Hungarians in Ural region.

No, not, since the South Uralic peoples were close relatives of the Eastern Europeans and their majority were Eastern European origin in the ancient times. So even the Western Siberian heritage of the Magyars were basically Eastern European.

[Rugevit]

Germanic settled in the medieval times. The Corded peoples in Finnland was proto-Baltic peoples once, before the Fennic "counterattack". The Battle axe culture conquered Southern Finnland, but the local peoples learn from them and soon they reconquered the coasts and they conquered the lands until the Dvina towards south. This is the present Eastonia-Latvian ethnic border and presumably this is one of the oldest solid ethnic border in Europe.

So these artifacts were Fennic.

Local people of Finland who learned from people of the battle-axe culture reconquered south-baltic region to Dvina? It's not what many Finns are stating. I read about Finland was settled by Finnic speakers through Estonia. Ukko was also writingabout the golden artefact was Germanic and glass was Roman

[Rugevit]

The margin of error is larger in percentage in a 19 size sample than the size of this sample. :D

BS. I am not bull-shitting that you are writing bull-shit. :D




No, not, since the South Uralic peoples were close relatives of the Eastern Europeans and their majority were Eastern European origin in the ancient times. So even the Western Siberian heritage of the Magyars were basically Eastern European.

No present day south Uralic are close to East Europeans. There was a study on ancient DNA from north-western Kazakhstan (south Ural) showing the individual(s) were not genetically similar to east Europeans too. You can search for the study if you wish.