Why must the almighty West live in terror, not the middle-east?

[Megrez]

Western military could obliterate the Islamic world. It would be easy to put an end to any menace of terrorist attack in Europe and USA. The muslims could be ordered to serve or die. But yet, it's the West which suffers. Western people must beware and fear shit like this (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Terror-Plot-To-Attack-European-Cities-Foiled-Militants-Planned-To-Attack-London-France-And-Germany/Article/201009415747344?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15747344_Terror_Plot_To_Attack_Europea n_Cities_Foiled%3A_Militants_Planned_To_Attack_Lon don%2C_France_And_Germany) everyday. People in the West cannot even criticize Islam without fearing to be killed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29). And any normal westerner is going to be killed anyway - in the next terrorist attack, coming soon at the place where you happen to be at the moment. Rapes, robberies. Muslim students mobbing European children at school calling girls whores because they don't wear burqa or just because they are blonde. Muslims thronging the streets to pray and mobbing you if you must get through them to reach your home. Some night in 1973 the arabs decided the Oil was too cheap, so they threatened the West with an embargo and finally raised the Oil prices, thus halting the European economic growth, making people fear the end of Western prosperity, and killing the Pony Car (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car). Still today people must pay the evergrowing price of Gas. Why must we tolerate this? The West could dispatch a nuke at any Sheikh home, anytime. We could easily make the Islamic world live in perpetual terror fearing to be obliterated if they don't stay quiet at home and give us cheap Oil (the only reason the middle-east has importance). But instead, who must live in terror is the people in the West.

This pondering alone leads to the sole logical conclusion that the Western governments are alien and against the people they control.

[Wulfhere]

Something has to change.

[Austin]

I'd be in favor of environmental-nuking. Look at how the wildlife has been decimated in Africa and parts of the middle east. Nature came back extremely well after Chernobyl, there's no reason to think it wouldn't come back in other places.

[Debaser11]

Globalization. It is incorrect to think of elites as viewing matters through a nationalist lens. Don't rock the boat, Megrez. :)

[Beorn]

Bloody Firefox! :mad: Ah well! Here's another go with less words.


Western military could obliterate the Islamic world.

As could "The Islamic World" obliterate the West. Remember both sides have, to varying degrees, a healthy stockpile.

At some point land forces would have to be used and I fear they wouldn't survive against the multiple millions which could be mobilised.


It would be easy to put an end to any menace of terrorist attack in Europe and USA. Indeed! An end to nosey parking in spheres which do not concern us, and dropping Israel quicker than a hot stone.


People in the West cannot even criticize Islam without fearing to be killed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29).There's a lot which cannot be criticised.


And any normal westerner is going to be killed anyway - in the next terrorist attack, coming soon at the place where you happen to be at the moment. I was pondering this today: isn't it suspicious how the further away from Europe the fundamentalist Muslim terror attacks occur, the lower the technology is used.

In Pakistan and other countries, the weapons of choice are simple guns and grenades or home made bombs. Simple and effective. Easy to conceal and easy to train to maximum effect.

In Europe it is all planes and high tech explosives. Why not use the same effective system within Europe and cut down the near 100% detection and capture rate?

Odd.


Some night in 1973 the arabs decided the Oil was too cheap, so they threatened the West with an embargo and finally raised the Oil prices, thus halting the European economic growth, making people fear the end of Western prosperity, and killing the Pony Car (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car). It's their oil. They can do as they please. As for the urgency for oil in the West, perhaps we should look to the times the West in the UK and the US have invaded, subverted and overthrown regimes in order to control and dominate the oil market to their own ends.

Do you seriously believe the market for alternative power is bamboozled by some Arab oil magnate? The market is suffocated by the greedy industry of Western nations who see oil as the greater generator of money.


Still today people must pay the evergrowing price of Gas.Walk. Ride a bike. Carpool. Buses. Trams, etc, etc.

All can be used to counter this sit down and moan mentality.


The West could dispatch a nuke at any Sheikh home, anytime. We could easily make the Islamic world live in perpetual terror fearing to be obliterated if they don't stay quiet at home and give us cheap Oil (the only reason the middle-east has importance). But instead, who must live in terror is the people in the West.Why do that? Why not harass your own governments to conform instead?

Less immigration with a less aggressive foreign policy would work wonders.

A nuclear bomb is simply a smack against a Hornet's nest.


This pondering alone leads to the sole logical conclusion that the Western governments are alien and against the people they control.And they have been since before my father was born.

[Wulfhere]

Pulling out of all those Muslim countries, and giving them no more aid, is a must. But we must also support Israel, because it's part of the West.

[Beorn]

But we must also support Israel, because it's part of the West.

Unfortunately it is through current circumstances, but nothing a good scrub and a smack across the chops won't fix.

[Wulfhere]

Unfortunately it is through current circumstances, but nothing a good scrub and a smack across the chops won't fix.

We must support it on principle.

[Beorn]

We must support it on principle.

When the principle is one which contributes to our demise, I will only give you my cock full of piss and an arse full of shit to your cause.

[Wulfhere]

When the principle is one which contributes to our demise, I will only give you my cock full of piss and an arse full of shit to your cause.

Do you have no concept of honour, in supporting our friends? If you have no honour, then I'd seriously advise against giving up all your piss and shit - there will be nothing left of you.

[Beorn]

Do you have no concept of honour, in supporting our friends? If you have no honour, then I'd seriously advise against giving up all your piss and shit - there will be nothing left of you.

Our friends!?!

LOL!

[Debaser11]

Supporting Israel is fine. The problem is that in Western discourse "supporting Israel" means supporting whatever it does a priori and giving it monetary aid. The average working American will have forked over 40K of his earnings to Israel before he retires. No, thank you. The neo-cons in my country that insist on this have ruined mainstream conservatism.

[Megrez]

I support Israel if all zionists move to there. Then I'd leave Israelis and Palestinians alone to kill themselves, as they please.

[Curtis24]

Not only oil, but weapons sales as well. U.S. weapons companies make tons of money by selling weapons to Arab countries.

Scary, I know - arming these governments to the teeth as they then systematically brainwash their people to hate Israel and the West. Marx was right about one thing, "The Capitilist will sell the noose to hang himself".

[Megrez]

Globalization. It is incorrect to think of elites as viewing matters through a nationalist lens. Don't rock the boat, Megrez. :)
This just reinforces my view.


As could "The Islamic World" obliterate the West. Remember both sides have, to varying degrees, a healthy stockpile.

At some point land forces would have to be used and I fear they wouldn't survive against the multiple millions which could be mobilised.
No need to land soldiers. No matter how many million troops they have, can they dispatch them to the West? Do they have a Navy or Airforce capable of accomplishing the task? Do you think an Islamic army could cross Russia, the Caucasus and the Peloponese and reach Europe without being stopped?


I was pondering this today: isn't it suspicious how the further away from Europe the fundamentalist Muslim terror attacks occur, the lower the technology is used.

In Pakistan and other countries, the weapons of choice are simple guns and grenades or home made bombs. Simple and effective. Easy to conceal and easy to train to maximum effect.

In Europe it is all planes and high tech explosives. Why not use the same effective system within Europe and cut down the near 100% detection and capture rate?

Odd.
I get your point. But the terror is the same. Again, just reinforcing my view.


Do you seriously believe the market for alternative power is bamboozled by some Arab oil magnate? The market is suffocated by the greedy industry of Western nations who see oil as the greater generator of money.
That's the alien "elite".

[Beorn]

No need to land soldiers.

Considering all the factors, would blanket bombing/nuclear holocaust be the best solution?


No matter how many million troops they have, can they dispatch them to the West? Do they have a Navy or Airforce capable of accomplishing the task? Do you think an Islamic army could cross Russia, the Caucasus and the Peloponese and reach Europe without being stopped?

The onus is upon us attacking and conquering the Islamic World. They are successfully winning the war (if 'winning' is the word that should be considered here, as well as 'war') by demographics alone.

If population trends are to be trusted, in the year 2050 the European people will be the minority. In the year 2030 we will most likely have a dominant Islamic political heirachy.

Even with the capitulation of the Islamic World, do you think the process by which the Western world is declining will stop? For one, the increase in refugees will amount to near ethnic suicide on a nationwide scale.

They are the ones in a win/win situation.

[Megrez]

I must remark I'm talking about a scenario in which people have brains and the West has never undergone muslim immigration, and Western nations don't give a shit to Islam. Do you believe Islamic powers could harm the West if this was the case?


Considering all the factors, would blanket bombing/nuclear holocaust be the best solution?
People fear for their lives. Just show them the nukes and the will to drop them if needed.


The onus is upon us attacking and conquering the Islamic World. They are successfully winning the war (if 'winning' is the word that should be considered here, as well as 'war') by demographics alone.
I'm talking about formal, declared war, not the process of Islamic colonization Europe is undergoing today. Those bullshits going on in Afghanistan and Iraq don't count as war against Islam.

[Beorn]

I'll answer with the original scenario in mind.


People fear for their lives. Just show them the nukes and the will to drop them if needed.

The ones with fingers on buttons will not care for the fear or assorted emotions of the masses, nor factor them in for the game.
When faced with nuclear assault, you're faced with the choice of retaliating with nuclear weapons or rolling over to die.

I don't think the latter will be an option.


I'm talking about formal, declared war, not the process of Islamic colonization Europe is undergoing today. Those bullshits going on in Afghanistan and Iraq don't count as war against Islam.

Your initial scenario was presented as otherwise. But, the war in Afghanistan may not seem like a religious war to you, but to the Taliban and its allies, it certainly is just that.


Do you believe Islamic powers could harm the West if this was the case?

Yes. Manpower alone would consume resources to enfeeble the Western world. Applying them to ground warfare would be near suicide.

[Megrez]

In a scenario in which the West doesn't give a shit to Islam, no Islamic nation has nukes. The choice left for them is obey or die.

If I recall, among Islamic nations only Pakistan has some nukes today.

[Megrez]

I just remembered this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/19/AR2006011903311.html

[Beorn]

In a scenario in whice the West doesn't give a shit to Islam, no Islamic nation has nukes. The choice left for them is obey or die.

This scenario seems to be changing every minute here. :)

In a scenario where the West doesn't care for Islam, and when earlier you said the scenario had a West just oozing with brains and intelligence, are we caring for the aggressive postures of a non-threatening religious force?

[Megrez]

Western military could obliterate the Islamic world. It would be easy to put an end to any menace of terrorist attack in Europe and USA. The muslims could be ordered to serve or die. But yet, it's the West which suffers. Western people must beware and fear shit like this (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Terror-Plot-To-Attack-European-Cities-Foiled-Militants-Planned-To-Attack-London-France-And-Germany/Article/201009415747344?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15747344_Terror_Plot_To_Attack_Europea n_Cities_Foiled%3A_Militants_Planned_To_Attack_Lon don%2C_France_And_Germany) everyday. People in the West cannot even criticize Islam without fearing to be killed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29). And any normal westerner is going to be killed anyway - in the next terrorist attack, coming soon at the place where you happen to be at the moment. Rapes, robberies. Muslim students mobbing European children at school calling girls whores because they don't wear burqa or just because they are blonde. Muslims thronging the streets to pray and mobbing you if you must get through them to reach your home. Some night in 1973 the arabs decided the Oil was too cheap, so they threatened the West with an embargo and finally raised the Oil prices, thus halting the European economic growth, making people fear the end of Western prosperity, and killing the Pony Car (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car). Still today people must pay the evergrowing price of Gas. Why must we tolerate this? The West could dispatch a nuke at any Sheikh home, anytime. We could easily make the Islamic world live in perpetual terror fearing to be obliterated if they don't stay quiet at home and give us cheap Oil (the only reason the middle-east has importance). But instead, who must live in terror is the people in the West.

This pondering alone leads to the sole logical conclusion that the Western governments are alien and against the people they control.


I must remark I'm talking about a scenario in which people have brains and the West has never undergone muslim immigration, and Western nations don't give a shit to Islam. Do you believe Islamic powers could harm the West if this was the case?


People fear for their lives. Just show them the nukes and the will to drop them if needed.


I'm talking about formal, declared war, not the process of Islamic colonization Europe is undergoing today. Those bullshits going on in Afghanistan and Iraq don't count as war against Islam.


In a scenario in which the West doesn't give a shit to Islam, no Islamic nation has nukes. The choice left for them is obey or die.

If I recall, among Islamic nations only Pakistan has some nukes today.

The scenario in the opening post, and in the other two quoted, is the same. If Western nations took the measures I proposed in the opening post, that would mean people in the West have brains and don't give a shit to Islam.

[Beorn]

The below implies a process of immigration has taken place.


Rapes, robberies. Muslim students mobbing European children at school calling girls whores because they don't wear burqa or just because they are blonde. Muslims thronging the streets to pray and mobbing you if you must get through them to reach your home.

B..b..but you said the above and then the below.


I must remark I'm talking about a scenario in which people have brains and the West has never undergone muslim immigration

Which scenario are we discussing?

[Megrez]

Rapes, robberies. Muslim students mobbing European children at school calling girls whores because they don't wear burqa or just because they are blonde. Muslims thronging the streets to pray and mobbing you if you must get through them to reach your home.

I'm talking about current reality in this excerpt.


Which scenario are we discussing?
I think we are discussing the possibility of threatening the Islamic world with nukes and put them in terror. And what consequences would it have brought to the West if it was ever done this way - my scenario.

[Beorn]

I'm talking about current reality in this excerpt.

And I replied accordingly.



I think we are discussing the possibility of threatening the Islamic world with nukes and put them in terror.

Okay, but why? We are an intelligent civilisation, we have no experience of Islamic fundamentalism and the 'Islamic World' has no discernible method of threatening us.

Why would we be considering the scenario of having to nuke them?

[Megrez]

Why would we be considering the scenario of having to nuke them?
Just because they don't want to give us cheap Oil - the only useful thing coming from Islamic nations lol.

[Beorn]

Just because they don't want to give us cheap Oil - the only useful thing coming from Islamic nations lol.

With that attitude perhaps the nukes are facing the wrong way :D

[Megrez]

And that remark on current reality in the opening post - is what would be avoided if my scenario was applied. Western people with willpower to show the world who are the masters.

[Austin]

I support Israel 100% as long as it is killing Arabs and expanding. The minute it becomes completely secular and makes friends with the Arabs is when it needs to have its funding cut.

Why have they not used their nukes already or invaded somebody?

[Cato]

It'd be antisemitic and islamophobic for the MidEast to live in fear, don't you get it?

[The Ripper]

I don't live in terror of the Middle-East, neither should you.

[Wyn]

Do you have no concept of honour, in supporting our friends? If you have no honour

How and why is the State of Israel our friend?

[Wulfhere]

How and why is the State of Israel our friend?

They are a Western nation in a sea of Islam.

[Wyn]

They are a Western nation

You'll have to define "Western" and demonstrate that the Israeli's fall within it, and then why that actually makes them our friend, I'm afraid. No buzzwords.


in a sea of Islam.


Boo-hoo.

[Wulfhere]

You'll have to define "Western" and demonstrate that the Israeli's fall within it, and then why that actually makes them our friend, I'm afraid. No buzzwords.



Boo-hoo.

I define Western to include Israel.

As for "boo-hoo", we are going the same way. We should stick together. Israel is a powerful force for freedom and democracy in the region, which is why so many Muslims are trying to get into it.

[Wyn]

I define Western to include Israel.

Spiffing. Now, if you could just tell me what that definition actually is, why you include Israel, and why that makes them our friend, things'll be in order.



As for "boo-hoo", we are going the same way. We should stick together.

That doesn't make them our friend.


Israel is a powerful force for freedom and democracy in the region, which is why so many Muslims are trying to get into it.

Come on, everybody knows Israel's track record. But that isn't my point and I'm not here to debate whether or not the Israelis are a nice bunch of guys. I want proof that they are "Western" (once you have defined it) and "our friends"

Edit: Actually, fuck it. Trying to get you to answer questions is murder. Forget it, I'm bored already repeating myself.

[Wulfhere]

Spiffing. Now, if you could just tell me what that definition actually is, why you include Israel, and why that makes them our friend, things'll be in order.



That doesn't make them our friend.



Come on, everybody knows Israel's track record. But that isn't my point and I'm not here to debate whether or not the Israelis are a nice bunch of guys. I want proof that they are "Western" (once you have defined it) and "our friends"

Edit: Actually, fuck it. Trying to get you to answer questions is murder. Forget it.

Their culture and society is entirely Western. And they are our friends for precisely this reason.

[Thraex]

I support Israel 100% as long as it is killing Arabs and expanding. The minute it becomes completely secular and makes friends with the Arabs is when it needs to have its funding cut.

Why have they not used their nukes already or invaded somebody?

Last I checked, Israel was using American troops to fight her wars.

[Wyn]

Their culture and society is entirely Western. And they are our friends for precisely this reason.

Still no definitions or explanations? :wavey001: T'ra!

[Korbis]

Well, we need their oil so we must act condescending towards them. Sucks, uh? maybe its time to invest seriously in renewable energies so in a not too distant future we could nuke the raghead cribs without regrets.

[Wulfhere]

Well, we need their oil so we must act condescending towards them. Sucks, uh? maybe its time to invest seriously in renewable energies so in a not too distant future we could nuke the raghead cribs without regrets.

We don't really need their oil - we've had the capability for decades to develop alternatives. It's just cheaper to buy it from them. And good policy too - drain them dry and then tell them to fuck off.