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Loki
10-03-2010, 08:10 AM
Britain recognizes Druidry as religion for first time, gives it charitable status (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/02/britain-recognizes-druidry-as-religion-for-first-time-gives-it-charitable-status/?hpt=C1)

http://cnnreligion.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/t1larg_druids_stonehenge_gi.jpg?w=640

CNN's Phil Gast filed this report:

Britain recognized Druidry, an ancient belief that worships deities that take different forms in nature, as a religion for the first time and gave it charitable status on Saturday.

"There is a sufficient belief in a supreme being or entity to constitute a religion for the purposes of charity law," declared the Charity Commission for England and Wales in response to the Druid Network's application.

The decision will give the neo-pagan religion, known for its cloaked worshippers at Stonehenge (above, in 1999) and other sites, tax advantages and is expected to lead to broader acceptance.

"This has been a long hard struggle taking over five years to complete," said the Druid Network, which is based in England, in a statement on its website.

In some ways, Druidry in Britain is catching up to Druids and other neo-pagans in the United States, which already provides tax-exempt status for religious groups, said Marty Laubach, Associate Professor of Sociology at Marshall University.

The British commission noted that Druidry "is animistic and based on a belief that everything has a spiritual dimension." It also said that the religion recognizes deities within nature and conducts worship ceremonies.

The Druid Network, which has about 350 members, sought charitable status for "the advancement of religion for public benefit and no other purpose," the commission said in its ruling.

Druidry has no asserted dogma, the network said in its application. It added that members associate their gods with the moon, fertility, rain, love and other forces.

Druids were members of the learned class among ancient Celts, acting as priests, judges and teachers. They performed human and animal sacrifices and worshiped in forests in western Europe, Britain and Ireland.

Neo-pagan groups are growing in the United States, the 2008 American Religious Identification Survey found.

Such groups include Druids and Wiccans, along with voodoo and other belief systems, Laubach said.

"It's a quintessentially American religion in that it is a highly individualistic religion," Laubach said of neo-paganism.

Marshall, in Huntington, West Virginia, allows students to miss classes to observe pagan and other religious holidays.

Neo-pagans seek to communicate with spirits, but witchcraft is not Satanic because its believers don't recognize the Satan of Christianity, Judaism or Islam, Laubach said.

Many people look at Satanic worshippers and neo-pagans "as a bunch of people dancing in the forest" without realizing the distinction, said Douglas E. Cowan, Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Waterloo in Ontario, Canada.

"We often tend to be demonized," said Laubach, a member of the neo-pagan movement, indicating Britain's decision is a "form of legitimacy."

Neo-pagans tend to be sensitive to the environment, with many rituals held outside, said Cowan and Laubach.

"They realize we are part of a living system," said Cowan.

"There is a huge festival movement," Laubach added. "The earth is the mother that supports us."

Britain's Druid Network says public misconceptions about some of its practices persist.

"While sacrifice is a core notion within most spiritual traditions, within Druidry it is confused by historical accounts of the killing of both human and animal victims," the network said in its application to the British commission. "No such practice is deemed acceptable within modern Druidry."

"What is sacrificed within the tradition today," the application says, "is that which we value most highly in life and hold to with most passion: time, security, certainty, comfort, convenience, ignorance and the like."

Modern pagans may not be as restrictive on issues such as sex as other religions "but [their] groups evolve social controls," Cowan said.

"You've got people bringing their kids to events," he said.

Cowan said it's not clear if the growth of Druidry - which he calls nowhere near as influential as the rapid growth of Christian Pentacostalism and Islam - is the rekindling or reinvention of the faith.

Regardless, Druids in Britain, unlike their North American counterparts, don't feel as marginalized by mainstream Christianity, he said.

"They have done the most to bridge the gap between Christian and non-Christian groups in Britain," Cowan said.

RoyBatty
10-03-2010, 08:18 AM
I sense an opportunity to make some money, lol!!!! :D

aDy4SVWeXcw

OcvRYPH0fOc

Debaser11
10-03-2010, 08:24 AM
Well, if the U.K. wants to entertain Sharia Law, why not throw the Druids a bone? They've certainly "earned" it.


LOL! "Now, now. Let us not jump to conclusions."

Aw, this episode is great nostalgia.

Lithium
10-03-2010, 09:40 AM
Isn't that the man who thinks he is the reborn Merlin? (on the first pic)

Matritensis
10-03-2010, 10:13 AM
Nice! I cannot wait until they start with the human sacrifices.Otherwise they cannot be taken seriously as druids,can they?

Murphy
10-03-2010, 11:40 AM
LOL@this.

Wyn
10-03-2010, 11:48 AM
LOL@this.

Don't laugh, they're as genuine and authentic as anyone else.

...

...

...

Loki
10-03-2010, 11:48 AM
LOL@this.

?

The Romans were LOLing when a fledgling Christianity became acceptable in the Roman Empire.

Murphy
10-03-2010, 11:56 AM
The Romans were LOLing when a fledgling Christianity became acceptable in the Roman Empire.

No they weren't? The Romans were crucifying, burning and tossing every Christian they could get their hands on to the lions. The Romans were hell-bent on blaming every social ill on the Christians (much like today many are want to do with the Jews).

No, the Romans were not LOLing.

I'm not necessarily LOLing at the faith of these people.. but what with Wulfhere shortly coming along to declare this a massive victory for "paganism", the image of this Jack Nicholson look-alike grinning with glee is simply hilarious.

Loki
10-03-2010, 12:01 PM
No they weren't? The Romans were crucifying, burning and tossing every Christian they could get their hands on to the lions. The Romans were hell-bent on blaming every social ill on the Christians (much like today many are want to do with the Jews).

No, the Romans were not LOLing.

I'm not necessarily LOLing at the faith of these people.. but what with Wulfhere shortly coming along to declare this a massive victory for "paganism", the image of this Jack Nicholson look-alike grinning with glee is simply hilarious.

I said "when they became acceptable". It happened gradually, and even then when persecution stopped, most Romans probably thought Christianity to be a ridiculous little religion. Much in the same way that you are now mocking Druidry.

Wulfhere
10-03-2010, 12:03 PM
No they weren't? The Romans were crucifying, burning and tossing every Christian they could get their hands on to the lions. The Romans were hell-bent on blaming every social ill on the Christians (much like today many are want to do with the Jews).

No, the Romans were not LOLing.

I'm not necessarily LOLing at the faith of these people.. but what with Wulfhere shortly coming along to declare this a massive victory for "paganism", the image of this Jack Nicholson look-alike grinning with glee is simply hilarious.

This, though not a "massive" victory, is certainly a small one. It's just one of many fronts that Paganism is opening up in our society, and it's all well and good. It's worth pointing out, however, that the Odinic Rite (a Heathen, folkish group) have had this exact same charitable status in the UK since 1988.

Wyn
10-03-2010, 12:07 PM
[...]

You aren't LOLing at them yourself? I thought you had an unfavourable view of religion/theism generally.

Murphy
10-03-2010, 12:08 PM
I said "when they became acceptable". It happened gradually, and even then when persecution stopped, most Romans probably thought Christianity to be a ridiculous little religion. Much in the same way that you are now mocking Druidry.

Aah sorry missed that.

But you're ignoring that Christianity didn't become "acceptable" until the majority of Romans became Christians ;). So, I doubt most Romans considered Christianity to be ridiculous.

And in fact, it was not Christianity that entered Rome, or rather not the modern notion of Christianity, it was an institution. It was the Catholic Church.

But seriously.. this "Druidry" cannot appeal to people in the long run. It's too simple, it lacks depth.

Murphy
10-03-2010, 12:11 PM
This, though not a "massive" victory, is certainly a small one. It's just one of many fronts that Paganism is opening up in our society, and it's all well and good. It's worth pointing out, however, that the Odinic Rite (a Heathen, folkish group) have had this exact same charitable status in the UK since 1988.

Is "paganism" opening up in Britain.. or is this simply the natural result of the humanistic-relativism that is pervading our socities, which is the exact same vehicle that has allowed for Islam, as an example, to be given the same status as "Druidry"?

I find this attitude a little strange to be honest. People like you Wulfhere glorify in the fall of the Church in Europe.. but you all ignore that the causes of that fall are those which are bringing about the fall of Europe as a whole - culturally, ethnically, economically etc.

Wulfhere
10-03-2010, 12:12 PM
But seriously.. this "Druidry" cannot appeal to people in the long run. It's too simple, it lacks depth.

That's untrue. It has an extremely complex system that takes years of study.

Wulfhere
10-03-2010, 12:13 PM
Is "paganism" opening up in Britain.. or is this simply the natural result of the humanistic-relativism that is pervading our socities, which is the exact same vehicle that has allowed for Islam, as an example, to be given the same status as "Druidry"?

I find this attitude a little strange to be honest. People like you Wulfhere glorify in the fall of the Church in Europe.. but you all ignore that the causes of that fall are those which are bringing about the fall of Europe as a whole - culturally, ethnically, economically etc.

I applaud the fall of all foreign religions imported from the Middle East.

Wyn
10-03-2010, 12:14 PM
Neopaganism, druidry, "heathenry" etc. is only tolerated because it is so impotent. If it actually had th chance of threatening the current (or new) order and reducing the power of the established forces then it would be attacked, like certain other groups.

Murphy
10-03-2010, 12:16 PM
That's untrue. It has an extremely complex system that takes years of study.

My friend, you are deluding yourself. As hard as it is to believe, Aprician-heathens like Psycho' are not typical of modern "paganism".

Unlike Islam, which has its appeal in its simplicity, "paganism" today is too simple. There is some depth in Islam, there is non in this "Druidry".

Murphy
10-03-2010, 12:17 PM
I applaud the fall of all foreign religions imported from the Middle East.

Then why are you celebrating Indo-European "paganism"? It's as foreign to these Isles as Christianity.

Bring back neolithic, pre-Cetlic British "paganism" I say! Ooh wait.. I forget, there were no Christian texts of that time for you to reconstruct your "religion" from ;).

Wulfhere
10-03-2010, 12:18 PM
My friend, you are deluding yourself. As hard as it is to believe, Aprician-heathens like Psycho' are not typical of modern "paganism".

Unlike Islam, which has its appeal in its simplicity, "paganism" today is too simple. There is some depth in Islam, there is non in this "Druidry".

I have been an active member of the Pagan scene for nearly 30 years, and I assure you I know what I'm talking about.

Wulfhere
10-03-2010, 12:19 PM
Then why are you celebrating Indo-European "paganism"? It's as foreign to these Isles as Christianity.

Bring back neolithic, pre-Cetlic British "paganism" I say! Ooh wait.. I forget, there were no Christian texts of that time for you to reconstruct your "religion" from ;).

Paganism in general is not alien to Britain, and Indo-European Paganism is not alien to either the Celts or Anglo-Saxons.

Murphy
10-03-2010, 12:20 PM
I have been an active member of the Pagan scene for nearly 30 years, and I assure you I know what I'm talking about.

You have thirty years on your side? Well, on my team I have two millenia's worth of history, culture, tradition, (natural) science and theology. I win ;).

Wulfhere
10-03-2010, 12:21 PM
You have thirty years on your side? Well, on my team I have two millenia's worth of history, culture, tradition, (natural) science and theology. I win ;).

Moron.

Murphy
10-03-2010, 12:22 PM
Paganism in general is not alien to Britain, and Indo-European Paganism is not alien to either the Celts or Anglo-Saxons.

"Paganism" is not alien to these Isles of course, but the "paganism" you advocate is. The Celtic culture, the Saxon culture etcetera, etcetera, are alien. In that they did not originate here and were imported by invaders.

So.. yea.

Loki
10-03-2010, 12:22 PM
You aren't LOLing at them yourself? I thought you had an unfavourable view of religion/theism generally.

No, absolutely not. I'm mentioning mainstream views on them. As for myself, Druidism is no more or less legitimate than any other established religion.

Psychonaut
10-03-2010, 01:20 PM
But seriously.. this "Druidry" cannot appeal to people in the long run. It's too simple, it lacks depth.

That there are simpletons involved in Druidry (as there are in all other religions) is definite, but if you happen to pick up next year's volume of my publication, you'll see that its best representatives are capable of treating Druidic theology with as much depth and clarity as any Catholic theologian.


My friend, you are deluding yourself. As hard as it is to believe, Aprician-heathens like Psycho' are not typical of modern "paganism".

True, but we're doing what we can to turn the tide. As one of your heroes (Chesterton) said:


"I have a vision, and I know
The heathen shall return.

They shall not come with warships,
They shall not waste with brands,
But books be all their eating,
And ink be on their hands."

The Ballad of the White Horse, VIII:246-251


Unlike Islam, which has its appeal in its simplicity, "paganism" today is too simple. There is some depth in Islam, there is non in this "Druidry".

How would you know? Have you read anything that their luminaries have written? Have you engaged them in theological debates?


You have thirty years on your side? Well, on my team I have two millenia's worth of history, culture, tradition, (natural) science and theology. I win ;).

Neo-Druidry has a longer history than almost any other Pagan revival. The first Druidic society in modern times was founded in 1772. And, unlike Heathenry, their religion has never been co-opten by Nazis, so their growth wasn't stunted the way ours was.

Cato
10-03-2010, 01:23 PM
No they weren't? The Romans were crucifying, burning and tossing every Christian they could get their hands on to the lions. The Romans were hell-bent on blaming every social ill on the Christians (much like today many are want to do with the Jews).

Do you really honestly believe this? :lol:

Murphy
10-03-2010, 01:31 PM
Do you really honestly believe this? :lol:

It's a simple fact.

Holy Mother Church grew from the seeds sown by the blood of Holy Martyrs. The Romans provided for many of them, including Saints Peter and Paul.. Italy is riddled with their tombs.

RoyBatty
10-03-2010, 01:36 PM
Neopaganism, druidry, "heathenry" etc. is only tolerated because it is so impotent. If it actually had th chance of threatening the current (or new) order and reducing the power of the established forces then it would be attacked, like certain other groups.

Indeed, by none other than the so-called "secularists" who are in fact a Cult themselves whilst claiming not to be one.

The "secularists" cunningly attack existing religions and religious orders in order to promote and further their own agendas such as multiculturalism, liberal "values", "tolerance", Marxism etc. They want the masses separated from their previous identities so that they can re-educate them in the secularist image and lead them to secularist utopia.

Murphy
10-03-2010, 01:41 PM
That there are simpletons involved in Druidry (as there are in all other religions) is definite, but if you happen to pick up next year's volume of my publication, you'll see that it's best representatives are capable of treating Druidic theology with as much depth and clarity as any Catholic theologian.

You must forgive me for being sceptical.. but I simply don't believe it. Northern European paganism is the religion of the barbarian. That in its self should show that there is no true depth to it. It is much like African or Amerindian paganism in this regards.

There is nothing to develop because the high point of the theology has been and went and its watermark was.. well disappointing.

There are many other pagan faiths to choose from though. Some that don't require reconstruction, such as the Hindu philosophies or Taoism etcetera. And these are faiths and philosophies with depth enough to rival Catholicism.

Why not go with one of them?


True, but we're doing what we can to turn the tide. As one of your heroes (Chesterton) said:


"I have a vision, and I know
The heathen shall return.

They shall not come with warships,
They shall not waste with brands,
But books be all their eating,
And ink be on their hands."

The Ballad of the White Horse, VIII:246-251

We're? You'll be a Christian by the time your 40 Psy :P..

And you've taken Chesterton out of context. See The Everlasting Man to see Chesterton's view on what paganism was and is.


How would you know? Have you read anything that their luminaries have written? Have you engaged them in theological debates?

I think you've missed my point. The reason I haven't had the chance is because they are so rare and far between ;).


Neo-Druidry has a longer history than almost any other Pagan revival. The first Druidic society in modern times was founded in 1772. And, unlike Heathenry, their religion has never been co-opten by Nazis, so their growth wasn't stunted the way ours was.

Any real continuity? Any real seriousness in it? Aren't most "pagans" today simply Gothic teenagers "rebelling" against society?

Cato
10-03-2010, 01:50 PM
It's a simple fact.

Holy Mother Church grew from the seeds sown by the blood of Holy Martyrs. The Romans provided for many of them, including Saints Peter and Paul.. Italy is riddled with their tombs.

A simple fact, according to whom, the Pope?

If all of your knowledge of the pre-Christian world comes via the Catholic Church then you need to brush up on your history lessons.

Murphy
10-03-2010, 01:52 PM
[. . .]

Okay Pallamedes, whatever you say, I am sure the Romans were right little angels :rolleyes2:..

Cato
10-03-2010, 01:56 PM
Okay Pallamedes, whatever you say, I am sure the Romans were right little angels :rolleyes2:..

I can see that my little admonition to study history a bit more in-depth went right over or around your head- as it usually does with people (atheists, Christians, etc.) who think that they and only they possess the truth. :rolleyes: "Holy Mother Church" might teach the sacraments and catechism to the faithful, but what she isn't teaching is that her glorious history is, largely, an embellished white-wash. :coffee:

Wyn
10-03-2010, 01:58 PM
I can see that my little admonition to study history a bit more in-depth went right over or around your head- as it usually does with people (atheists, Christians, etc.) who think that they and only they possess the truth. :rolleyes: "Holy Mother Church" might teach the sacraments and catechism to the faithful, but what she isn't teaching is that her glorious history is, largely, an embellished white-wash. :coffee:

Do you feel any attachment to Iroquois beliefs (whatever they might be)?

Murphy
10-03-2010, 01:58 PM
Of course Pallamedes, those nasty clergy, brainwashing poor children etc, etc.

Cato
10-03-2010, 02:02 PM
Do you feel any attachment to Iroquois beliefs (whatever they might be)?

Beliefs about Dekanawida, the Great Peacemaker, who was born from a virgin mother, and sent from heaven by the Great Spirit to civilize the ancestors of the Iroquoian tribes? :)

Only as a literary and historical curiousity.

Loki
10-03-2010, 02:02 PM
In this regard Catholics remind me of Muslims: they're rather intolerant of people who hold views they consider "inferior".

Wyn
10-03-2010, 02:03 PM
Beliefs about Dekanawida, the Great Peacemaker, who was born from a virgin mother, and sent from heaven by the Great Spirit to civilize the ancestors of the Iroquoian tribes? :)

Only as a literary and historical curiousity.

So you don't feel any special attachment to it, despite the fact that your ancestors believed it?

Murphy
10-03-2010, 02:04 PM
In this regard Catholics remind me of Muslims: they're rather intolerant of people who hold views they consider "inferior".

Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. But hey, preach your gospel of tolerance. But try and not mark it by double-standards.

Cato
10-03-2010, 02:06 PM
So you don't feel any special attachment to it, despite the fact that your ancestors believed it?

The majority of my ancestry is western European, and were I to embrace Iroquoian beliefs I'd never be accepted by them- I'd be a "wannabe," a term that Steve McNallen has used for whites who take up ethnic religions that have nothing to do with them, and a term used by Amerindians themselves for sorry-ass whites who try to pass themselves off as belonging to indigenous tribes.

Wyn
10-03-2010, 02:06 PM
In this regard Catholics remind me of Muslims: they're rather intolerant of people who hold views they consider "inferior".

The concept of inferiors and superiors is best associated with Judaists and Calvinists. And of course, we needn't discuss Calvinist intolerance.

Loki
10-03-2010, 02:07 PM
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.

That's a rather uncivilized interpretation of the meaning of the word.

Murphy
10-03-2010, 02:10 PM
That's a rather uncivilized interpretation of the meaning of the word.

That is because the meaning of the word has been completely warped by the humanistic-relativist agenda.

Wulfhere
10-03-2010, 02:28 PM
You must forgive me for being sceptical.. but I simply don't believe it. Northern European paganism is the religion of the barbarian. That in its self should show that there is no true depth to it. It is much like African or Amerindian paganism in this regards.

There is nothing to develop because the high point of the theology has been and went and its watermark was.. well disappointing.

There are many other pagan faiths to choose from though. Some that don't require reconstruction, such as the Hindu philosophies or Taoism etcetera. And these are faiths and philosophies with depth enough to rival Catholicism.

Why not go with one of them?



We're? You'll be a Christian by the time your 40 Psy :P..

And you've taken Chesterton out of context. See The Everlasting Man to see Chesterton's view on what paganism was and is.



I think you've missed my point. The reason I haven't had the chance is because they are so rare and far between ;).



Any real continuity? Any real seriousness in it? Aren't most "pagans" today simply Gothic teenagers "rebelling" against society?

+++Any real continuity? Any real seriousness in it? Aren't most "pagans" today simply Gothic teenagers "rebelling" against society?+++

Yes, the Druid orders have an unbroken, documented lineage from the 18th century. Yes, they are indeed serious. And no, most Pagans are not Gothic teenagers. You really are trying to argue from a position of profound ignorance here.

+++There is nothing to develop because the high point of the theology has been and went and its watermark was.. well disappointing.+++

Paganism is developing all the time.

+++There are many other pagan faiths to choose from though. Some that don't require reconstruction, such as the Hindu philosophies or Taoism etcetera. And these are faiths and philosophies with depth enough to rival Catholicism.

Why not go with one of them?+++

Because they are foreign. Just like Christianity.

Germanic Paganism is as indigenous as the English are to England, and Celtic Paganism is as indigenous as the Welsh are to Wales.

Wyn
10-03-2010, 03:13 PM
Paganism in general is not alien to Britain, and Indo-European Paganism is not alien to either the Celts or Anglo-Saxons.

Who knows. The Scandinavians were not always worshiping Odin. For how long the Angles etc had been worshiping Woden when they came to the island of the Britons, who knows.

RoyBatty
10-03-2010, 03:23 PM
The concept of inferiors and superiors is best associated with Judaists and Calvinists. And of course, we needn't discuss Calvinist intolerance.

Or secularist intolerance :D

Groenewolf
10-03-2010, 03:35 PM
Yes, the Druid orders have an unbroken, documented lineage from the 18th century. Yes, they are indeed serious.

I think he is talking about going a bit further back. Besides that the ancient druids where the intellectual elite of Celtic society and the present form is pretty much disconnected from such a sociological context. It is like reducing Catholicism to monks and nuns.


And no, most Pagans are not Gothic teenagers. You really are trying to argue from a position of profound ignorance here.

I agree here. However this is the idea portrayed by the mass media. They focus on them and people who think the oer linda book is the real thing. By doing this they make sure most people do not take the more serious paganism serious.:coffee:


No they weren't? The Romans were crucifying, burning and tossing every Christian they could get their hands on to the lions.

Not every Roman emperor was like Nero trowing Christians to the lions. Some where relatively more tolerant then others. Most of course saw Christianity as a treat to the Divine order that was the basis of the Roman Empire. Or in the light of the fact that they did not sacrifice to the emperor and therefore could be seen as not loyal.


In that they did not originate here and were imported by invaders.

He is a descendant of those invaders.

Electronic God-Man
10-03-2010, 04:58 PM
You must forgive me for being sceptical.. but I simply don't believe it. Northern European paganism is the religion of the barbarian. That in its self should show that there is no true depth to it. It is much like African or Amerindian paganism in this regards.

LOL.

PS. Taoism, Hinduism and Buddhism are still around because Christianity and Islam haven't managed to replace them yet. Proselytizers and conquerors were too busy getting rid of European, Amerindian and African paganism. I wouldn't say it's much of a mark of Christianity's superior beliefs and depth.

Liffrea
10-03-2010, 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by Wynfrith
Neopaganism, druidry, "heathenry" etc. is only tolerated because it is so impotent. If it actually had th chance of threatening the current (or new) order and reducing the power of the established forces then it would be attacked, like certain other groups.

As has been pointed out there are indeed plenty of flakes and hippy dippy’s in Paganism. Personally I doubt I would have much in common with or much time for the average modern “druid”. I’ve seen enough “Pagans” to know the losers who live in a fantasy world, back to nature types who really don’t have a clue what nature is and would shit themselves if the reality intruded on their fluffy bunny ideas, assorted “progressives” and political reactionaries.

Makes it all the harder to be taken seriously but there are groups out there trying to do just that.


Originally Posted by Eóin
Northern European paganism is the religion of the barbarian. That in its self should show that there is no true depth to it.

A non sequitur.

Whilst your statement is erronous, you are correct that the Heathen heroic age is unashamedly “barbaric” from the Christian perspective. The Christian who wrote Beowulf had the problem of how to write of a man who in every way was the epitome of the “barbarian” but who had to be made a follower of Christ; then again perhaps it wasn’t a problem for him, the warrior aristocracy of Anglo-Saxon England were drawn to the Old Testament for a reason and Jesus was far from the sandel wearing lentil eater, a 1st century John Lennon, that “progressive” Christians would have him be…. Not more than fifteen miles from where I live an Anglo-Saxon helmet was unearthed displaying a Christian cross and the Pagan symbol of the boar much used by Germanic and Celtic warriors. Followers of Christ in old England and the Celtic lands were just as “barbaric” as the Pagan, but of course we “civilised” folks of a future age view the past how we want to see it.

Of course Heathenism is “modern” reconstruction is neither desirable nor possible. I’m a 21st century urbanite, not a 6th century Anglian farmer or 9th century Viking raider. Naturally I have my own prejudices and influences. My own Heathen creed is a blend of Old English and Icelandic literature, Tolkienism (Tolkien knew more about the “spirit of the North” than most Heathens and he was Catholic) and Nietzschean thought. I could easily point out a hundred and one Christians who couldn’t defend their faith from a simple attack because they have never thought about what they believe they just follow, as above I can easily point out hippy dippy Pagans, saying a system doesn’t have depth is just asinine. Pagan thought has many rich forms in many eras.

Psychonaut
10-03-2010, 05:18 PM
You must forgive me for being sceptical.. but I simply don't believe it. Northern European paganism is the religion of the barbarian. That in its self should show that there is no true depth to it. It is much like African or Amerindian paganism in this regards.

It may seem like that because our growth was unnaturally stunted in the pre-philosophical years by the conversions. Had it developed, unmolested, we would, no doubt, have done so along similar lines that the branches of the IE tree not snipped did. As our Indian cousins show us, IE polytheism lends itself quite nicely to philosophical systems of infinite depth and complexity.


There is nothing to develop because the high point of the theology has been and went and its watermark was.. well disappointing.

Just wait and see. The future will prove you wrong. Next year will be a high point for sure. ;)


There are many other pagan faiths to choose from though. Some that don't require reconstruction, such as the Hindu philosophies or Taoism etcetera. And these are faiths and philosophies with depth enough to rival Catholicism.

Why not go with one of them?

As has been pointed out, they are not ours. I would doubt that Daoism can even be fully comprehended without fluency in Chinese. It is so completely and utterly alien that even describing it in English proves incredibly difficult.


Why not go with one of them?We're? You'll be a Christian by the time your 40 Psy :P..

:lmao


I think you've missed my point. The reason I haven't had the chance is because they are so rare and far between ;).

Well, then hold off on making sweeping pronouncements until you do. Arguing from ignorance leads to bad conclusion.


Any real continuity? Any real seriousness in it? Aren't most "pagans" today simply Gothic teenagers "rebelling" against society?

Ditto the last point. Meet some before passing judgment.

Wyn
10-03-2010, 05:25 PM
As has been pointed out there are indeed plenty of flakes and hippy dippy’s in Paganism. Personally I doubt I would have much in common with or much time for the average modern “druid”. I’ve seen enough “Pagans” to know the losers who live in a fantasy world, back to nature types who really don’t have a clue what nature is and would shit themselves if the reality intruded on their fluffy bunny ideas, assorted “progressives” and political reactionaries.

Makes it all the harder to be taken seriously but there are groups out there trying to do just that.

Well, I'm not of the burn da paganz variety. Really, I respect say, you and Psychonaut, over a militantly hostile atheist. A couple of major things that I find irksome though, are: a) the anti-Christian views of some and the (in the context of preservationist etc. forums) the claim that Christianity is foreign and alien to European peoples; b) the hypocrisy of (some) European heathens who would claim the foreigness of Christianity whilst championing gods/beliefs foreign to their own ancestors (say, Irish-Americans who claim to be of the Roman or Indian religions).

Psychonaut
10-03-2010, 05:29 PM
A couple of major things that I find irksome though, are: a) the anti-Christian views of some and the (in the context of preservationist etc. forums) the claim that Christianity is foreign and alien to European peoples;

It is certainly more alien than Heathenry. What languages do you study in order to engage in Biblical exegesis? About which peoples are the Biblical histories written about? Who are the chosen people of the God of the Old Testament? Where is the Holy Land located?

Wulfhere
10-03-2010, 05:34 PM
(Tolkien knew more about the “spirit of the North” than most Heathens and he was Catholic)

Absolutely right. He represents the living tradition, not a bunch of stuffy old books that weren't even English anyway, but Icelandic. See the following sections in our Mercian manifesto:

http://sovereignmercia.angelfire.com/#Judiciary
http://sovereignmercia.angelfire.com/#Monarchy
http://sovereignmercia.angelfire.com/#Mythology
http://sovereignmercia.angelfire.com/#Texts

Wyn
10-03-2010, 05:47 PM
It is certainly more alien than Heathenry. What languages do you study in order to engage in Biblical exegesis? About which peoples are the Biblical histories written about? Who are the chosen people of the God of the Old Testament? Where is the Holy Land located?

Well, that would depend on the heathenry. Take a North American who is a member of x Odinist organisation. Odin is completely alien to them. They were raised in a secular culture of a once/nominally Christian country, were generally raised in a secular or nominally religious household by parents that could be described in the same way, and their ancestors probably did not engage in Odin-worship for centuries. Odin and the rest are truly alien to them.

Wulfhere
10-03-2010, 05:55 PM
Well, that would depend on the heathenry. Take a North American who is a member of x Odinist organisation. Odin is completely alien to them. They were raised in a secular culture of a once/nominally Christian country, were generally raised in a secular or nominally religious household by parents that could be described in the same way, and their ancestors probably did not engage in Odin-worship for centuries. Odin and the rest are truly alien to them.

They would argue otherwise - that it's in their blood.

Wyn
10-03-2010, 05:59 PM
They would argue otherwise

Obviously they would argue otherwise. If they didn't then we wouldn't be having this discussion.


- that it's in their blood.

Which is no kind of rational argument. "It's in my blood" will not change the fact that their ancestors had not been worshiping Odin for centuries. I'm a Christian because it's in my blood. Now what? No kind of argument. Nothing but a buzzword in this context, where there is no continuity.

Wulfhere
10-03-2010, 06:03 PM
Obviously they would argue otherwise. If they didn't then we wouldn't be having this discussion.



Which is no kind of rational argument. "It's in my blood" will not change the fact that their ancestors had not been worshiping Odin for centuries. I'm a Christian because it's in my blood. Now what? No kind of argument. Nothing but a buzzword in this context, where there is no continuity.

Paganism, or in this instance Heathenry, is a religion of the folk. The artificial monotheistic religions of the Middle East are not.

Wyn
10-03-2010, 06:09 PM
Paganism, or in this instance Heathenry, is a religion of the folk.

What folk exactly? The Irish? English? Germans? Any other European ethnic group that hasn't practiced paganism as the community religion for centuries? Yeah, OK.


The artificial monotheistic religions of the Middle East are not.

I seem to recall you saying that "all religions were invented at some point" or something along those lines. By your reasoning, you are practicing an aritificial religon (well, most know of the Oera Linda fraud anyway, but this isn't the topic at hand). Whether or not something is artificial is out of the question and unimportant.

As for the Middle Eastern comment - pagans often mention that Christianity (Catholicism-Orthodoxy) is heavily pagan influenced, in terms of Trinitarian Doctrine, prayer to saints, use of icons. etc. In this way, it is markedly different from the ME religions of Islam and Judaism (who regard Christians generally as pagans).

And of course, as I have said repeatedly, the European ethnic groups have been practicing Christianity for centuries. It is not alien to them at all. This is nothing to base an argument on.

Wulfhere
10-03-2010, 06:14 PM
What folk exactly? The Irish? English? Germans? Any other European ethnic group that hasn't practiced paganism as the community religion for centuries? Yeah, OK.



I seem to recall you saying that "all religions were invented at some point" or something along those lines. By your reasoning, you are practicing an aritificial religon (well, most know of the Oera Linda fraud anyway, but this isn't the topic at hand). Whether or not something is artificial is out of the question and unimportant.

As for the Middle Eastern comment - pagans often mention that Christianity (Catholicism-Orthodoxy) is heavily pagan influenced, in terms of Trinitarian Doctrine, prayer to saints, use of icons. etc. In this way, it is markedly different from the ME religions of Islam and Judaism (who regard Christians generally as pagans).

And of course, as I have said repeatedly, the European ethnic groups have been practicing Christianity for centuries. It is not alien to them at all. This is nothing to base an argument on.

Each folk has its own indigenous Paganism.

I would never have said such a thing, because no one invented Paganism. It evolves naturally.

Christianity is indeed Pagan-influenced, but it is not Pagan.

Cato
10-03-2010, 06:39 PM
Look at it from the folkish heathen position, people who believe that they belong to the "nation of Odin" or some variation of that term. The mythological stories of the northern Europeans presents Ask and Embla has having been created by a divine triad, Odin and his brothers, and gifted with body, soul, mind, and whatnot. This is as real to them as, say, the myth of Adam and Eve is to Christians and Jews.

As to not having worshipped Odin in centuries, these folks regard it as of no consequence that some of their ancestors were Christians for a few centuries, when, say, Odinism, not Odin worship per se but "European ancestral religion," goes back many tens of thousands of years. Merely because no one beyond a generation or two ago had any desire to worship the Aesir and Vanir doesn't mean a great deal to people, like many heathens, who believe in a folk-consciousness. It's kind of like the folk-consciousness was asleep, or groggy, for the centuries of Christian practice, and is now coming alive once more as more and more people return to what they regard as their ancestral traditions.

Psychonaut
10-03-2010, 06:49 PM
Well, that would depend on the heathenry. Take a North American who is a member of x Odinist organisation. Odin is completely alien to them. They were raised in a secular culture of a once/nominally Christian country, were generally raised in a secular or nominally religious household by parents that could be described in the same way, and their ancestors probably did not engage in Odin-worship for centuries. Odin and the rest are truly alien to them.

So, simply because, taking me for an example, my ancestors stopped making sacrifices to Óšinn some time in the 900s that somehow makes the a set of myths that evolved through a people completely disconnected from me ancestrally and created thousands of years ago in a land neither me or my people have any connection to closer, in some sense, to me than Heathenry? There is certainly a connection in that we have been practicing it for some centuries, but the moment you look beyond that, at the roots of Christianity, the gulf appears.

Cato
10-03-2010, 06:54 PM
So, simply because, taking me for an example, my ancestors stopped making sacrifices to Óšinn some time in the 900s that somehow makes the a set of myths that evolved through a people completely disconnected from me ancestrally and created thousands of years ago in a land neither me or my people have any connection to closer, in some sense, to me than Heathenry? There is certainly a connection in that we have been practicing it for some centuries, but the moment you look beyond that, at the roots of Christianity, the gulf appears.

The vast majority of Christians nowadays are completely disassociated from the Aramaic-speaking culture of the 1st century, and owe far more to the elaborate theologies of Paul and Paul's apologists than to the homilies of Jesus.

Electronic God-Man
10-03-2010, 06:59 PM
I'm not sure anymore how we got on this particular aspect of heathenry and I don't care to go back and check. However, I'd like to point out that heathens don't practice heathenry solely because it was the faith practiced by our ancestors. There are many reasons.

It seems like any time the topic comes up a Christian or atheist will hone right in on this aspect. It must be because the high regard for ancestors and folk is something that Christians as Christians find very strange.

Liffrea
10-03-2010, 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by Wynfrith
A couple of major things that I find irksome though, are: a) the anti-Christian views of some and the (in the context of preservationist etc. forums) the claim that Christianity is foreign and alien to European peoples; b) the hypocrisy of (some) European heathens who would claim the foreigness of Christianity whilst championing gods/beliefs foreign to their own ancestors (say, Irish-Americans who claim to be of the Roman or Indian religions).

As I have experienced it anti-Christian attitudes amongst many Heathens usually comes from those who were raised as Christian and then rejected it for whatever reason. Personally I never have been a Christian, I was raised in a non religious environment, both of my brothers are virulently anti-religion yet they weren’t raised Christian either…I guess it depends. I found a need for a spiritual-philosophical dimension to my life and I found (and continually find) what I need in Heathenism. I think for me it is a mind set, one Heathen I know once said any one can be an Odinist but not everyone should be I think it requires a way of looking at life and the world that would leave many traditionally raised in a Christian environment somewhat disturbed, as a result I think there is a transition where you mentally adjust.

As for Christianity being foreign…… Christianity was Europeanised, in the north it absorbed much of the indigenous beliefs because it had no choice if it wanted to convert people, in that sense much of Christianity in the north was Germanised. The Christ of the Dream of the Rood is a different figure than a contemporary Greek, Italian or African Christian would have understood. For me, though, the roots of Christianity were in a mind set which (whilst as a 21st century Westerner I couldn’t fail to be influenced by) didn’t speak to me as such, Jesus was a 1st century Jewish teacher in the Middle East. A fascinating figure and I have a deep love for Christian lore and I could spend all day in old churches but the connection wasn’t there. A few miles from me is a village called Wensley it is named after Woden it is one of a few place names in England named after the Anglo-Saxon deities, was Woden worshipped at Wensley? I live in Derby a Scandinavian name, was Odin honoured by the Danes who built the fort Derby grew from? Was Beowulf written in Mercia? It was set in the old lands the Angles migrated from. Old English literature is, by and large, Christian but much of it rests within Heathen thought in that transition phase in English history.

A reconstruction of the Benty Grange helmet, discovered in Derbyshire in 1848:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/Liffrea66/osehnc08301.jpg

Note the cross on the nose guard and the boar crest.

In the Peak District, twenty miles up the road, people still decorate wells in the villages, sure they are Christianised ceremonies but the tradition goes back to the Celts who survived longest in the hilly country of the Pennines, across the border in Staffordshire is Lud’s Church, which although it may well have been named after a Lollard possibly was named after the Celtic god Lugh, certainly the tale of the Green Knight (a very Pagan story) is rooted in that landscape whilst a few miles from Lud’s Church (which is a gorge) is Thor’s Cave.

For me the connection is in the places, the landscape, the language, the spirit in the literature. It is…northern, for me its home.

Matritensis
10-03-2010, 09:17 PM
This is a serious question now:what do these new druids exactly know about ancient and genuine druidism? the Romans wiped druidism from the isles with a vengeance.Who has kept the tradition,the rituals?

Electronic God-Man
10-03-2010, 09:21 PM
This is a serious question now:what do these new druids exactly know about ancient and genuine druidism? the Romans wiped druidism from the isles with a vengeance.Who has kept the tradition,the rituals?

I'm no expert on druidry, but I think that even druids themselves fully acknowledge that there is little continuity between the druids of old and the "druids" of today.

It's one of the reasons why I'm not too keen on Druidry.

From Wiki:
"some assert that Druidry is not a religion at all, not even necessarily a spirituality, but simply a philosophy of living" that can be adhered to by followers of any religion or by atheists."

It's mostly based around some respect and reverence for nature from what I understand.

It's a shame though, I really wish someone could do with Celtic faiths what is being done with the Germanic ones.

Loki
10-03-2010, 09:27 PM
By contrast, the earliest gospels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospels#Dating) we know of were only written about four decades after Jesus' death.

Wyn
10-03-2010, 09:45 PM
So, simply because, taking me for an example, my ancestors stopped making sacrifices to Óšinn some time in the 900s

I honestly think adding "simply" to that sentence is a little odd. Yes, that simply happened. Your ancestors for the last thousand years or so have simply worshiped the Christian God as opposed to Odin.


that somehow makes the a set of myths that evolved through a people completely disconnected from me ancestrally and created thousands of years ago in a land neither me or my people have any connection to closer, in some sense, to me than Heathenry?

I would say so, yes. Christianity is likely the religion of your grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great grandparents. It obviously has its origins among foreign peoples in a foreign land, but it is extremely close to you, and Europe generally. I don't think that can be denied. Europe was predominantly Christian until quite recently. It has not been predominantly pagan for a long time. Todays Odinists do not have an unbroken connection to the Norse religion. Which, I admit, a number of Odinists do admit, and not all claim to be authentic practitioners of a religion identical to that of pre-Christian Scandinavia (which of course begs the question as to how much they can really claim to be following the traditions of their ancestors if they freely admit that their beliefs and practices are not the same. But I guess that's a different discussion altogether).


There is certainly a connection in that we have been practicing it for some centuries, but the moment you look beyond that, at the roots of Christianity, the gulf appears.

Yes, I concede that the moment you look beyond dozens and dozens of generations of continued worship over many centuries, there is a gulf. :thumb001:

No, really, all in good fun.

Wyn
10-03-2010, 09:46 PM
It must be because the high regard for ancestors and folk is something that Christians as Christians find very strange.

Well, that certainly is not true of me or Christians I am personally acquainted with.

Electronic God-Man
10-03-2010, 09:53 PM
Well, that certainly is not true of me or Christians I am personally acquainted with.

I said Christians as Christians would find it very strange. An Irish-Catholic can definitely understand it, but that's because he values his Irish ancestry and heritage, etc. However, there is nothing Christian about that, beyond "honor thy father and thy mother."

Christianity has far less concern about ancestors or folk than heathenry does. It's simply not inherent in the Christian belief system. It's a universal religion. It seeks to convert as many as possible to the true path. It has no concern over ancestral or cultural allegiances (if they are not specifically Christian cultural allegiances).

Murphy
10-03-2010, 10:00 PM
Christianity has far less concern about ancestors or folk than heathenry does.

Only in comparison with those who make an idol of the nation.

Wulfhere
10-03-2010, 10:01 PM
This is a serious question now:what do these new druids exactly know about ancient and genuine druidism? the Romans wiped druidism from the isles with a vengeance.Who has kept the tradition,the rituals?

Iolo Morganwg is the link. The effective founder of modern Druidism, with possible connections to surviving bardic traditions in Glamorgan from ancient times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iolo_Morganwg

Óttar
10-03-2010, 10:06 PM
These people need to stop wearing white billowy rags and purple shirts and shit. Stop dressing up like Santa Claus, learn a Celtic language, and <gasp!> sacrifice an animal. Hold a ritual feast afterward. Simple common sense things would help to establish a more authentic, respectable religion.

On Second Life, in the region ROMA, the 'emperor' decreed that for the feasts of the gods, no one could create a gory sacrifice animation. (:rolleyes2:) The Romans had a large retinue of specialised ritual-butchers, chanters, animal restrainers, anointers, and bone cleaners. Why most "neo-pagans" shy away from animal sacrifice is beyond me. I have a great disgust for these people. The ancient relationship between Man and the Gods was based on mutual giving, of which sacrifice was most significant.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PRWlq_BwP2E/RxobFjWyvSI/AAAAAAAAAY8/Xc_PPFEkDRc/s400/sacrifice.gif

Electronic God-Man
10-03-2010, 10:12 PM
Only in comparison with those who make an idol of the nation.

Christianity makes no special mention of any people except the Hebrews, God's Chosen Ones. You believe that the Jews have failed in their mission as a nation of priests and now "God's Chosen Ones" are Catholics.

There is nothing relative to the well-being of any individual ethnic group in Christianity. It is all about those people who are Catholics and who can convert others to the same faith. There is a mission for the world as a whole. It will all be Christian and Catholic some day. It's universalism.

There is no comparison to be made. Christianity gives little if anything to compare heathenry's high regard for ancestors and folk with.

Psychonaut
10-03-2010, 10:27 PM
I honestly think adding "simply" to that sentence is a little odd. Yes, that simply happened. Your ancestors for the last thousand years or so have simply worshiped the Christian God as opposed to Odin.

I would say so, yes. Christianity is likely the religion of your grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great grandparents. It obviously has its origins among foreign peoples in a foreign land, but it is extremely close to you, and Europe generally. I don't think that can be denied. Europe was predominantly Christian until quite recently. It has not been predominantly pagan for a long time. Todays Odinists do not have an unbroken connection to the Norse religion. Which, I admit, a number of Odinists do admit, and not all claim to be authentic practitioners of a religion identical to that of pre-Christian Scandinavia (which of course begs the question as to how much they can really claim to be following the traditions of their ancestors if they freely admit that their beliefs and practices are not the same. But I guess that's a different discussion altogether).

Yes, I concede that the moment you look beyond dozens and dozens of generations of continued worship over many centuries, there is a gulf. :thumb001:

No, really, all in good fun.

So, to use an analogy, an African child that has been adopted by a family of Swedes is, after growing up with them, more Swede than African?

Arne
10-03-2010, 10:30 PM
So, to use an analogy, an African child that has been adopted by a family of Swedes is, after growing up with them, more Swede than African?

As much as the British dislike the Welsh.

Osweo
10-04-2010, 02:01 AM
"Paganism" is not alien to these Isles of course, but the "paganism" you advocate is. The Celtic culture, the Saxon culture etcetera, etcetera, are alien. In that they did not originate here and were imported by invaders.
LOL, I'm a Saxon with a Celtic name. :D Is my 100xGreat Grandad 'foreign' to me, just cos he came across 27 miles of water before meeting my 100xGreat Gran? What drivel!

What folk exactly? The Irish? English? Germans? Any other European ethnic group that hasn't practiced paganism as the community religion for centuries? Yeah, OK.
So, if our peasant ancestors took part in what was for them a poorly understood religion, imposed from above and hedged around with all manner of syncretism, obfuscation and sophistry, it's somehow a good thing just cos it was kept up for a long time???

Printing led to the democratisation of knowledge, Roman Catholicism took a plunge. Ever greater access to knowledge (increased leisure time, the weakening of the class system, the spread of universal education, the internet, advances in history and archaeology, libraries, the internet) has led to more and more of our people 'waking up' and wondering what the devil we were doing for those centuries.

Our heathen forebears were all more or less au fait with what their religion was about. Some had a deeper interest or aptitude, but the transition to Roman Christianity was undoubtedly associated with a distancing of the common man from his religion.

Do you honestly think that our serf ancestors in the 14th Century had the faintest idea about Christian theology other than an ability to murmur along at the right points in the mass or parrot out his Lord's Prayer in garbled Latin that had as much connection with him as a Japanese haiku?

Most of us have only really known what Christianity is about since the spread of literacy in the Nineteenth Century. 1850 - 650 = 1200 years, which is a LONG time, sure, but quantity doth not equal quality.

As for the Middle Eastern comment - pagans often mention that Christianity (Catholicism-Orthodoxy) is heavily pagan influenced, in terms of Trinitarian Doctrine, prayer to saints, use of icons. etc.
You try to win us over to Christianity by pointing out those parts of it that Jesus himself would either have shrugged at or condemned.

When we are presented with Christianity, it is natural for us to zoom in on the Christ element, the man who it's all named after. We mostly have a fair idea of Jesus as a historical figure, and from first principles, a man not brought up within your religion has a damned hard time reconciling the Gospels with the historical baggage of the Church. If our reason tells us that all the good European things in Christianity are things that Christ had not intended, well, the whole enterprise loses credibility in our eyes. :shrug:

It's kind of like the folk-consciousness was asleep, or groggy, for the centuries of Christian practice, and is now coming alive once more as more and more people return to what they regard as their ancestral traditions.
An excellent way of expressing it! Kudos to ye! :thumbs up

Cato
10-04-2010, 02:42 AM
I'm a Saxon with a Celtic name.

An excellent way of expressing it! Kudos to ye! :thumbs up

:)

Wyn
10-04-2010, 02:04 PM
So, to use an analogy, an African child that has been adopted by a family of Swedes is, after growing up with them, more Swede than African?

I don't consider the situations (a European population adopting a religion, a Swede family adopting a black child) analogous.


You try to win us over to Christianity by pointing out those parts of it that Jesus himself would either have shrugged at or condemned.

I wasn't trying to win you over. As the sentence that followed the one you quoted (In this way, it is markedly different from the ME religions of Islam and Judaism who regard Christians generally as pagans) shows, I was trying to highlight the difference between Catholicism-Orthodoxy and the "Middle Eastern religions".


If our reason tells us that all the good European things in Christianity are things that Christ had not intended, well, the whole enterprise loses credibility in our eyes.

Of course, I am not going to convert to Christianity people who do not view Christianity as it is practiced by the foremost Churches credible. I am here to debate the suitability (or rather legitimicy) of Christianity to European peoples in contrast to neopaganism (Heathenry etc.). That, and I'm becoming a TA-addict who can't stay away.

Wyn
10-04-2010, 02:08 PM
Sorry, I should have answered this post.


Merely because no one beyond a generation or two ago had any desire to worship the Aesir and Vanir doesn't mean a great deal to people, like many heathens, who believe in a folk-consciousness. It's kind of like the folk-consciousness was asleep, or groggy, for the centuries of Christian practice, and is now coming alive once more as more and more people return to what they regard as their ancestral traditions.

I do understand the point your making, but there is, in my opinion, a lack of consistency with individuals who purportedly practice Odinism (just as an example) and talk of it being the religion of their ancestors whilst acknowledging that they do not hold the same belief and have the same practices. To me, it is flawed to talk of the path of your ancestors, claim to follow it, and admit that you are doing things very different to them.

Liffrea
10-04-2010, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Wynfrith
I do understand the point your making, but there is, in my opinion, a lack of consistency with individuals who purportedly practice Odinism (just as an example) and talk of it being the religion of their ancestors whilst acknowledging that they do not hold the same belief and have the same practices. To me, it is flawed to talk of the path of your ancestors, claim to follow it, and admit that you are doing things very different to them.

I wouldn’t say I’m following the path of my ancestors. When I get right down to it what do I know of my ancestors? Up until a couple of years ago I couldn’t have told you the names of my great grandparents. I’m not from a “family unit”, three of my grandparents were stone cold before I was born, my mother died when I was an infant, family and ancestry mean very different things to me than they do most others here I would imagine. I have researched my family tree, as I see it even knowing the names of people is something, I’m not a ritual person so for me this is a form of honouring them, I don’t know their stories but at least I know their names, but I don’t claim to be alike to my forefathers because I’m not. When you get right down to it after a dozen generations you’re probably more related to your next door neighbours than the names on your family tree.

I’m of the Folkist variety of Heathen but not because my distant ancestors were Anglo-Saxon farmers who may have honoured the Vanir or because some may have been Danes who bellowed Odin before cutting a monks head off but because I believe that these beliefs are born of a mindset, a world view, that is unique to a people, Odinism isn’t what our folks practised in the “good old days” it is something that has grown out of a variety of forms, some of which are linked to the beliefs of the Anglo-Saxons and Norse, some of which are later growths. Nietzsche wrote Thus Spoke Zarathustra…….I think who spoke to Nietzsche was less a Persian mage and more a certain one eyed individual, yet Nietzsche had little knowledge of northern faiths, he was a self confessed “southerner” more at home in the Mediterranean than the North or Baltic Sea. Yet he is just one example of the northern outlook on the world, no African or Indian or Chinese could have wrote Zarathustra (probably no Englishman for that matter but that’s something else!), none of them could have written Beowulf or have the appreciation for Old English and Old Norse literature that northern people do. You can’t explain the connection, it’s like identity not many can really explain what they mean by their identity, not in words.

It is just something you know to be.

Treffie
10-04-2010, 03:09 PM
As much as the British dislike the Welsh.

Huh? You're retarded.