Is Paganism our only hope against Islam?

[Teyrn]

Amazingly the more modern science learn about our universe and human nature the more parralels we can find with pagan beliefs. Heathenry naturally evolved out of depths of human super-subconscious while Christianity, Islam and Judaizm are artificial constructs which declining some important aspects of human life.

The creation story in Genesis can be said, and has been said, to follow the standard Big Bang-based cosmological model. The writers of the biblical account of creation didn't conjure it up out of thin air- they apparently used existing, i.e. pagan, Near Eastern accounts of creation as a foundation and what they did do was to ascribe the creation of the cosmos to a single deity rather than a group of deities.

[Wulfhere]

The Order of Bards, Ovates & Druids and their wiccan allies will clearly save us all from the saracen hordes. :rolleyes:

It's a substitution of one form of superstition for another form of superstition, from Christianity to paganism, and the assumption that paganism is something good merely because it rejects Christian spiritual hegemony or whatever and that the pagan deities are better than the Christian deity is too overly naive and simplistic.

A better question might be to ask is why people are coming to prefer the pagan superstitions over the Christian superstition? The typical batty neo-pagan will probably go on about Burning Times, witch-hunts, forced conversions, and other crap, but the thoughtful neo-pagans might say something more like "Christianity has nothing of value to teach." This implies that as a moral force Christianity is pretty much spent and worn-out, a bit of existential rubbish like other failed religions, and then out come the Christian apologists and the battle is joined. Clearly then Christianity is not spent and worn-out if people are willing and able to defend it so zealously, in which case the neo-pagans have their work cut out for them.

Paganism is a way of reconnecting with one's ancestors and the land. Christianity offers nothing of the sort.

[The Ripper]

Paganism is a way of reconnecting with one's ancestors and the land. Christianity offers nothing of the sort.

Of course not. All those church towers that dominate the skyline of any traditional European settlement with bells tolling, a Christian could never feel at home there. :rolleyes:

[Teyrn]

Paganism is a way of reconnecting with one's ancestors and the land. Christianity offers nothing of the sort.

It's important to connect with my ancestors because..?

[Wulfhere]

It's important to connect with my ancestors because..?

Because they're your ancestors.

If you don't understand the Pagan worldview, then you probably never will. It's an instinctive thing that works on the emotions.

[Sarmatian]

It's important to connect with my ancestors because..?

Because how can you figure out where to go if you have no idea where you came from?

[Teyrn]

Because they're your ancestors.

If you don't understand the Pagan worldview, then you probably never will. It's an instinctive thing that works on the emotions.

Mysterious Christian worldview or mysterious pagan worldview, no real difference- one set of stories or another hmmm.

Perhaps a proper religion is sun/star worship then, since all of the heavy elements contained within the human body are the product of a primeval supernova some billions of years ago? It sounds as reasonable as any of the alternatives.

[Teyrn]

Because how can you figure out where to go if you have no idea where you came from?

So, a more recent set of ancestors or a more distant set of ancestors? People from the British isles in historic times or people on Continental Europe in neolithic times or some archaic australopithecine? :confused: This is where I sort of fail to connect when people start to go on about "ancestral religion."

[Sarmatian]

The creation story in Genesis can be said, and has been said, to follow the standard Big Bang-based cosmological model. The writers of the biblical account of creation didn't conjure it up out of thin air- they apparently used existing, i.e. pagan, Near Eastern accounts of creation as a foundation and what they did do was to ascribe the creation of the cosmos to a single deity rather than a group of deities.

Exactly. Bible just copying the story from other sources. But its also drastically simplifying it. As we can see throughout course of history monotheistic religions are extremely successful in creating complex social constructs like modern states. Pagans has never been able to achieve it because while their traditions offer vast material for personal growth they totally lacking social tools. Thats why when someone coming up with the idea of pagan state everyone think he is crazy.
We needed monotheism to gain experience in creating complex social entities. It was made at expense of personal spiritual advance. The time coming for us to synthesize both and it will be the next step of human evolution.

[Sarmatian]

So, a more recent set of ancestors or a more distant set of ancestors? People from the British isles in historic times or people on Continental Europe in neolithic times or some archaic australopithecine? :confused: This is where I sort of fail to connect when people start to go on about "ancestral religion."

This sort of things are based on personal spiritual experiences. Since you had none I don't see any way to explain it to you. Its like telling a blind man about color difference.

[Pallantides]

Paganism is a way of reconnecting with one's ancestors and the land. Christianity offers nothing of the sort.

So I can only connect with my ancestors that lived before 1030 A.D?




Olav den hellige had more connection to his own ancestor than some neo-pagan and his reconstructed beliefs.

[Teyrn]

Exactly. Bible just copying the story from other sources. But its also drastically simplifying it. As we can see throughout course of history monotheistic religions are extremely successful in creating complex social constructs like modern states. Pagans has never been able to achieve it because while their traditions offer vast material for personal growth they totally lacking social tools. Thats why when someone coming up with the idea of pagan state everyone think he is crazy.
We needed monotheism to gain experience in creating complex social entities. It was made at expense of personal spiritual advance. The time coming for us to synthesize both and it will be the next step of human evolution.

The Bible is the product of a variety of known and unknown sources and merely because copies from, say, the Near Eastern pagan stories in some respect doesn't mean that it can't impart moral teaching to the people who read it. One of my largest complaints is how it imparts moral knowledge not that it does impart moral knowledge. I find the whole obsession with guilt, sin, etc. to be highly destructive to ego and self-esteem and Christians get locked into what I see as a symbiotic, love/hate relationship with the divine.

My main issues are with Christian doctrine itself, the spiritual and existential components, and not the worldliness of the religion (charitable organizations, hospitals, colleges, and whatnot). Christianity ought to be supported on these groups alone and for all of its supposed superiority, where are pagan charities, hospitals, colleges, etc.? The Christians slam dunk the pagans on this one. Can some pagan group claim the same sort of humanistic legacy that, say, the Catholics can boast about?

As to complex pagan societies, what about the Roman Empire?

[Sarmatian]

The Bible is the product of a variety of known and unknown sources and merely because copies from, say, the Near Eastern pagan stories in some respect doesn't mean that it can't impart moral teaching to the people who read it. One of my largest complaints is how it imparts moral knowledge not that it does impart moral knowledge. I find the whole obsession with guilt, sin, etc. to be highly destructive to ego and self-esteem and Christians get locked into what I see as a symbiotic, love/hate relationship with the divine.

My main issues are with Christian doctrine itself, the spiritual and existential components, and not the worldliness of the religion (charitable organizations, hospitals, colleges, and whatnot). Christianity ought to be supported on these groups alone and for all of its supposed superiority, where are pagan charities, hospitals, colleges, etc.? The Christians slam dunk the pagans on this one. Can some pagan group claim the same sort of humanistic legacy that, say, the Catholics can boast about?

As to complex pagan societies, what about the Roman Empire?

Do you seriously believe that humans need a moral knowledge to be imparted upon them? Morality is a mere set of rules for those pure souls who were locked into concept of sin, castrated by guilt and subjected to constant inner pain sometimes so intense it makes them to be ugly to each other. We need those rules to contain that fire created by Christianity in the first place.

Same goes for humanitarian activities. Christianized society creating handicapped souls who unable to take care of themselves. Thus all those 'humanitarian' Christians fixing their own mess.

Roman Empire is a good example of pagan state. However modern states are somewhat more complex in their structure.

[Lumi]

FOr the record, Christianity is only 2000 years old.
Paganism has been around for at least 3000 years.
Just saying.
And as a Christian-turned-Pagan, I converted because I felt Christianity was far too contradictory. It's okay to own slaves, but it's not okay to eat shellfish? It's okay to murder someone for sleeping with a married person, but it's a sin to murder? Yeah. The Bible is one big mind-fuck.
Also, I was never happy as a Christian. There was this God that demanded respect and fear from his followers and threatened us with eternal damnation if we defied him. The Gods that I follow do nothing of the sort. All they ask of you is to treat others the way you want to be treated, harm none (including yourself) and respect all that has been given to you by them. They don't demant that you wake up early on a specific day and dress formal and travel to an old building just to recite verses from a book. They ask that you acknowledge their existance, follow a few rules and nothing else. They don't threaten you with eternal damnation for every wrong thing that you do. If you kill someone intentionally, or hurt them severely in any other way, you will be punished when you die.

So do I think Pagan ideals will protect us from the extremist views of Islam? Yes.

[Lithium]

FOr the record, Christianity is only 2000 years old.
Paganism has been around for at least 3000 years.
Just saying.
And as a Christian-turned-Pagan, I converted because I felt Christianity was far too contradictory. It's okay to own slaves, but it's not okay to eat shellfish? It's okay to murder someone for sleeping with a married person, but it's a sin to murder? Yeah. The Bible is one big mind-fuck.
Also, I was never happy as a Christian. There was this God that demanded respect and fear from his followers and threatened us with eternal damnation if we defied him. The Gods that I follow do nothing of the sort. All they ask of you is to treat others the way you want to be treated, harm none (including yourself) and respect all that has been given to you by them. They don't demant that you wake up early on a specific day and dress formal and travel to an old building just to recite verses from a book. They ask that you acknowledge their existance, follow a few rules and nothing else. They don't threaten you with eternal damnation for every wrong thing that you do. If you kill someone intentionally, or hurt them severely in any other way, you will be punished when you die.

So do I think Pagan ideals will protect us from the extremist views of Islam? Yes.

You can't live without doing any harm in some form. How can the Paganism help against the islam if we (Pagans) aren't suppossed to harm others?

[Lumi]

Sorry Lumi, I got confused here. I mistook you for a Wiccan, as in the past you have said that you practice astral projection. You also said you practiced "old Magick" spelt anachronistically like Crowley the occultist spelt it. And you insinuated that you have inherited practices of pagan origin. You also stated that Loki visits you in dreams, and that you "like having Loki around" even if he does hide your things, like he is some sort of familiar thing in your life. You just sound typical of a lot of Wiccans I know.

But your profile said you were Asatru, so I appear to be mistaken :thumbs up

That doesn't make me Wiccan. Read up on traditional Witchcraft, I beg of you.
An ancestor of mine was a Witch, and she had similar abilities to my own (prophetic dreams, empathic abilities, the ability to Astral project).
Yes I do identify as Asatru, and no, I never said that I personally practiced old Magick, because I don't. I have dabbled in Magick when the situation called for it. All Magick is is a call to the Universe for help with something.
And Loki has been known to make an appearance in my dreams, yes. But so do a lot of people, like for example my boyfriend.

[Lumi]

You can't live without doing any form of a harm in some form. How can the Paganism help against the islam if we (Pagans) aren't suppossed to harm others?

The Gods I follow teach us that if the situation calls for it then you must defend yourself and your people against a common enemy. So, say, if someone of the Islam faith attacked me or those I love, I'd go berserker on their asses and kick their butt. That's self defence. Even the Vikings recognised the difference between intentional and unintentional, and when it was time to defend against an enemy and kill that same enemy.

[Pallantides]

The Norse sacrificed animals and humans to appease their gods.


Sacrifice could comprise of inanimate objects, animals or humans. Amongst the Norse, there were two types of human sacrifice; that performed for the gods at religious festivals, and retainer sacrifice that was performed at a funeral. An eye-witness account of retainer sacrifice survives in Ibn Fadlan's account of a Rus ship burial, where a slave-girl had volunteered to accompany her lord to the next world. Reports of religious sacrifice are given by Tacitus, Saxo Grammaticus and Adam of Bremen.
The Heimskringla tells of Swedish King Aun who sacrificed nine of his sons in an effort to prolong his life until his subjects stopped him from killing his last son Egil. According to Adam of Bremen, the Swedish kings sacrificed males every ninth year during the Yule sacrifices at the Temple at Uppsala. The Swedes had the right not only to elect kings but also to depose them, and both king Domalde and king Olof Trätälja are said to have been sacrificed after years of famine.
Odin, the chief god of the Norse, was associated with death by hanging, and a possible practice of Odinic sacrifice by strangling has some archeological support in the existence of bodies perfectly preserved by the acid of the Jutland (later taken over by the Daner people) peatbogs, into which they were cast after having been strangled. One of the most notable examples of this is the Bronze Age Tollund Man. However, we possess no written accounts that explicitly interpret the cause of these stranglings, which could have other explanations, such as being a form of capital punishment.

[Lumi]

Your point? It's not like we're saying we should take back all Pagan traditions. Just the morals...
And harming someone in the name of appeasing the Gods was not considered a bad thing. Infact, weren't those to be sacrificed often treated really well before they were offed?

[Wulfhere]

Mysterious Christian worldview or mysterious pagan worldview, no real difference- one set of stories or another hmmm.

Perhaps a proper religion is sun/star worship then, since all of the heavy elements contained within the human body are the product of a primeval supernova some billions of years ago? It sounds as reasonable as any of the alternatives.

You're looking at it from a mundane materialistic point of view, which rather misses the point.

[Wulfhere]

So, a more recent set of ancestors or a more distant set of ancestors? People from the British isles in historic times or people on Continental Europe in neolithic times or some archaic australopithecine? :confused: This is where I sort of fail to connect when people start to go on about "ancestral religion."

All of them, from all periods. Going right back.

[ShlomoLen]

Atheism is the only solution against religious extremists.
Under a perfect Socialistic state, no religions would be tolerated.

[The Ripper]

Atheism is the only solution against religious extremists.
Under a perfect Socialistic state, no religions would be tolerated.

I wouldn't want to live in a state which would so blatantly rob me of my human rights.

[Wulfhere]

So I can only connect with my ancestors that lived before 1030 A.D?




Olav den hellige had more connection to his own ancestor than some neo-pagan and his reconstructed beliefs.

Eh? Why 1030?

[Pallantides]

Eh? Why 1030?

It's the year of the Battle of Stiklestad were Christian king Olav the holy fell, he was canonized as the eternal king of Norway.

[Wulfhere]

It's the year of the Battle of Stiklestad were Christian king Olav the holy fell, he was canonized as the eternal king of Norway.

More recent ancestors are still your ancestors.

[ShlomoLen]

Atheism is the only solution against religious extremists.
Under a perfect Socialistic state, no religions would be tolerated.

[Mercury]

Atheism is the only solution against religious extremists.
Under a perfect Socialistic state, no religions would be tolerated.

Dogmatic atheists who affirm there is no God, and believe reality is limited to scientific discovery, are as dogmatic and unscientific as any theist. So they too, should be banned.

[Pyramidologist]

Atheism is the only solution against religious extremists.
Under a perfect Socialistic state, no religions would be tolerated.

Atheism itself is a religion. It's a faith, worldview etc. Claiming no God, higher power, energy, supernatural entity exists and so forth, when we have only explored like 0.001% of the Universe is 100% faith. No different than a Christian literalist who thinks God is a little bearded man in the sky, and Jews are the chosen people...

[Pyramidologist]

Dogmatic atheists who affirm there is no God, and believe reality is limited to scientific discovery, are as dogmatic and unscientific as any theist. So they too, should be banned.

New York University psychologist Paul Vitz, in his book Faith of the Fatherless, identifies 20 famous atheists from the modern period who had negative experiences with their fathers or family. In a nutshell, militant Atheism equates to insecurity, bad ubringing, family tension or immoral behaviour. Extract of Vitz' research:


Friedrich Nietzsche, for example, resented his father, Ludwig. Early in Nietzsche’s life the two enjoyed a close relationship, but Ludwig died months before Friedrich’s fifth birthday, leaving the younger Nietzsche feeling that his father was weak and sickly. He retained that feeling all his life and associated it with his father’s Christianity. Not surprisingly, his chief criticism of the Christian God was that He suffered from an absence of “life force.” Thus, Nietzsche spent his career demeaning Christianity as a sign of weakness, a slave mentality.

Jean-Paul Sartre, one of the most famous atheists of the twentieth century, argued that one must discard the idea of God and invent his own values. Underlying that philosophy was deep animosity toward his father, who died when Sartre was only 15 months old. For the rest of his life, Sartre hated fatherhood. He often wrote about fathers as metaphors for burdens and condemned paternity. According to one of his works, “There is no good father, that’s the rule … Had my own father lived, he would have lain on me full length and crushed me. As luck would have it, he died young.”

The French skeptic Voltaire despised his father so deeply that he refused to go by his given name, Francois-Marie Arouet. Though he wrote extensively about his father, he said virtually nothing positive and believed himself to be the illegitimate son of a family friend. Once, his father became so angry at Voltaire for not studying law that he authorized authorities to imprison his son or exile him to the West Indies.

Madalyn Murray O’Hair was another noted atheist and hater of her father. Once she attempted to kill him with a ten-inch butcher knife. Upon failing, she screamed, “I’ll see you dead. I’ll get you yet. I’ll walk on your grave!”

In his book, Vitz also notes that Stalin, Hitler, and Mao all resented their fathers too.

Research from surveys also shows, 90% of homosexuals identify as Atheist. Militant Atheism is linked to immorality such as homosexuality, race denialism, communism, secular humanism and so forth.

All the world's most well known Atheists are homosexuals.

Militant atheist ''skeptic'' James Randi came out recently of the closet at age 81.

[Osweo]

Due to recent advancements in communication, such as the Internet, few Western nations will be associated with ONE religion or one religious belief. Individuals will pick out what religion they like and there will be even a greater diversity of religious beliefs in the future. So asking if the West should be Islamic, Christian, or Pagan is basically irrelevant. We don't live in that age anymore. Westerners are increasingly individualistic and will pick out their own spirituality for themselves.
There is SOME truth in that analysis, but I feel where you fail is in assuming that this situation is somehow the end of a process, or even the beginning of a long and stable phase. It could ALSO be argued, that what you outline is a transient state, between periods that differ in extremis from the present free for all.

Actually, it's not SO different nowadays to the state of the Roman Empire just before the official adoption of Christianity. :chin: Uh oh.... ;)

Now Heathenry and European-centered religions in general can install a feeling of ethnocentrism and racial pride that isn't found in modern day universalistic Christian sects. The only form of Christianity that I would promote for a racialist white is Mormonism or some form of British Israelite type religion.
I see what you're saying, but Mormonism and BI are just too stupid and daft. ;)


Perhaps a proper religion is sun/star worship then, since all of the heavy elements contained within the human body are the product of a primeval supernova some billions of years ago? It sounds as reasonable as any of the alternatives.
Hehe, a familiar notion!

I have certain immediate family members who are fascinating to question on such matters, thanks to their relative lack of education, scientific OR religious. :p One of them spontaneously came out with the idea that solar worship 'makes the most sense' out of all alternatives. :D


So, a more recent set of ancestors or a more distant set of ancestors? People from the British isles in historic times or people on Continental Europe in neolithic times or some archaic australopithecine? :confused: This is where I sort of fail to connect when people start to go on about "ancestral religion."
Well... What makes most sense is to ask yourself what you are, ethnically. As an Englishman, one of the most relevant periods in the history of Humanity is that in which my people coalesced. That takes us back to the initial British land-grab by the followers of Woden. ;)

All the more ancient stuff can be found in the later incarnations of folk-religion, anyway. It's all there in some sort of substrate influence in folklore and so on. Only the drastic conversions of the modern period saw the utter break in this chain of transmission from the Palaeolithic to the present, and even THEY weren't totally effective. It's all there in our subconscious... :thumbs up


Research from surveys also shows, 90% of homosexuals identify as Atheist.
:lol: Do you think you would have got the same figures in 1st Century Rome or 5th Century BC Athens!?!


All the world's most well known Atheists are homosexuals.
THe ones that first pop into my head are Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao... none there. :shrug:

[Duke]

Nope, it would accomplish absolutely nothing

[Trog]

I'd rather follow Islam than "piganism".

[Teyrn]

You're looking at it from a mundane materialistic point of view, which rather misses the point.

Outside of this particular viewpoint what else is there? People can, and do, believe the most idiotic things based upon nothing more than wishful thinking, flights of fancy, and the like.

Great claims require great proof and claims of ancestral gods, crucified gods, and the like are just that- claims without a shred of empirical proof. A pagan claiming an experience of "unsubstantiated personal gnosis" or some Christian claiming an experience of "the holy spirit" can't offer any evidentiary testimony other than to what amounts as hearsay. Any credulous bumpkin or a person who takes things simply on faith might buy such accounts and that's it I think.

[Teyrn]

I have certain immediate family members who are fascinating to question on such matters, thanks to their relative lack of education, scientific OR religious. :p One of them spontaneously came out with the idea that solar worship 'makes the most sense' out of all alternatives. :D


Well... What makes most sense is to ask yourself what you are, ethnically. As an Englishman, one of the most relevant periods in the history of Humanity is that in which my people coalesced. That takes us back to the initial British land-grab by the followers of Woden. ;)

All the more ancient stuff can be found in the later incarnations of folk-religion, anyway. It's all there in some sort of substrate influence in folklore and so on. Only the drastic conversions of the modern period saw the utter break in this chain of transmission from the Palaeolithic to the present, and even THEY weren't totally effective. It's all there in our subconscious... :thumbs up

Ignorance is bliss as they say and the old time religions worked in the old times but I think once a person reaches a certain level of knowledge or imformation input from different areas, astronomy, history, philosophy and the other areas of the classical education, a person is left with more than a bit of skepticism about religion- typically Christianity in the west but religion in general. Some of what I've been intrigued by comes from the old theory of astro-archaeology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeoastronomy) and the events in the heavens being translated into cultural myths. Also from the idea that natural events were invested with supernatural purpose by primitives and the tales kept form the basis for myths. The ancients had a level of observation that moderns don't seem to have kept, given out somewhat scientific detachment. They saw signs and portents, evens of religious significance in events that are spectacular but entirely mundane to us: comets, eclipses, and the like.

Solar worship has always interested me, especially after I got the knowledge that stars, the older ones in the galactic center anyways, contain helium and hydrogen and then during the process of supernovas the heavy elements are formed (iron, etc.) and are blown off during the star's implosion/explosion sequence. The stars and planets formed from this blow-off of heavy elements are like our sun and its planetary system.

Ancient tales and the philosophies give the sun, not ours specifically, a generative power and you might see why I could say solar worship would/could be an ideal modern religion and why the ancients often thought of the sun as God.

I think I see what you're saying about the transition from a folk religion. There are few living examples of folk religions now outside of those like Shinto or Tao or Hinduism (all Asian). Nothing in the west survived into modern times and I think the last reference I heard to a pagan was some Sami shaman who was killed by the Christians in the 17th century I want to say.

[RagnarLodbrok666]

Hey. Not all pagans are fluff bunny Wiccans.
There are those of us who do practice old magick and make symbolic sacrifices (because, you know, killing people and animals is illegal and the last thing pagans want is even more bad press...).
Also, I'm not a hippie. Nor am I a liberal. So quit with the stereotypes, please. Paganism does not just apply to Witches either.

I think Christianity has failed, and the Pagan ideals of defending yourself and your family are the way to defeat Islam. Paganism taught bravery, courage, selflessness and to respect others and treat them as you would wish to be treated yourself. So, if someone hurts you, kick their ass.

Indeed real traditional paganism is not at all "fluffy" or liberal. Wicca is actually a made up religion and modern invention based on historical falsehoods and judeo-christian beliefs. The threefold law of Wicca is actually biblical and based off of "turn the other cheek" and the "golden rule." Wicca would be welcoming toward Islam while the assertive and militant aspects of ethnic traditional paganism are anything but.

I credit Odin himself with inspiring my education field career goals and military aspirations.

[Lumi]

I'd rather follow Islam than "piganism".

You'd rather adopt oppressing and extremist laws than laws of freedom and acceptance?
You are fecked up in the head...

[Kalitas]

Paganism is a good option to reject islam, but I think a gatling would do a better job;)

[RagnarLodbrok666]

Paganism is a good option to reject islam, but I think a gatling would do a better job;)

I couldn't agree more with this post. :D

How about a sturmgehrer or twelve gauge 180?

If only Islam4UK members were to give someone a reason.

[Trog]

You'd rather adopt oppressing and extremist laws than laws of freedom and acceptance?
You are fecked up in the head...

Islam has values for creating a responsible society; paganism as...well you tell me. Tell me what one needs to do to be a pagan...:thumb001:

[Osweo]

I'd rather follow Islam than "piganism".
You're already halfway there, if you're using 'pig' as a term of abuse, Hen! :bowlol:

Ignorance is bliss as they say and the old time religions worked in the old times but I think once a person reaches a certain level of knowledge or imformation input from different areas, astronomy, history, philosophy and the other areas of the classical education, a person is left with more than a bit of skepticism about religion- typically Christianity in the west but religion in general.
I'm not sure that that 'religion in general' statement actually follows.

Christianity is buggered because it became, or is seen to have become, too shackled to various dogmatic notions by which the religion had strayed too far into spheres outside the more obviously spiritual sphere. Religion in the wider sense cannot be so summarily dismissed.

I do believe with a few years more of life you may develop much more subtle ideas on this score.

Ancient tales and the philosophies give the sun, not ours specifically, a generative power and you might see why I could say solar worship would/could be an ideal modern religion and why the ancients often thought of the sun as God.
Didn't work for Akhenaten, though.

As in his case, introducing something now that involves a clean break with the accumulated wisdom of ages is dangerous and ill-fated.

Basically, we have inherited a creaky old house, full of all sorts of seeming tat, and which has undergone some drastic and unsympathetic DIY makeovers... YOU want to chuck everything in a skip, and build something shiny and new. I'd far rather rip out the less 'in keeping' modifications, and bring the older features back into more prominence, and arrange the clutter in such a way as to give rightful place to the more venerable heirlooms. :)



I think I see what you're saying about the transition from a folk religion. There are few living examples of folk religions now outside of those like Shinto or Tao or Hinduism (all Asian). Nothing in the west survived into modern times and I think the last reference I heard to a pagan was some Sami shaman who was killed by the Christians in the 17th century I want to say.

Nah, you're being far too literalistic. I look to folklore; we do things and say things every day that have near zero empirical sense to them. If we look into why we do these things, and examine the notions behind it all, we get a fascinating sense that not THAT much has changed, despite outward 'conversions'... :thumbs up

[Kalitas]

I couldn't agree more with this post. :D

How about a sturmgehrer or twelve gauge 180?

:thumb001:



Islam has values for creating a responsible society; paganism as...well you tell me. Tell me what one needs to do to be a pagan...

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=479&pictureid=3839

Islam, well you tell me:(

[Teyrn]

Didn't work for Akhenaten, though.

As in his case, introducing something now that involves a clean break with the accumulated wisdom of ages is dangerous and ill-fated.

Basically, we have inherited a creaky old house, full of all sorts of seeming tat, and which has undergone some drastic and unsympathetic DIY makeovers... YOU want to chuck everything in a skip, and build something shiny and new. I'd far rather rip out the less 'in keeping' modifications, and bring the older features back into more prominence, and arrange the clutter in such a way as to give rightful place to the more venerable heirlooms. :)

Nah, you're being far too literalistic. I look to folklore; we do things and say things every day that have near zero empirical sense to them. If we look into why we do these things, and examine the notions behind it all, we get a fascinating sense that not THAT much has changed, despite outward 'conversions'... :thumbs up

Akhenaten was named Amenhotep before he had his little conversion experience and his religion was abandoned wholesale after his death when the cult priests regained their power. His religion was impractical because it was more or less a closed religion- for the pharaoh and his family and their immediate hangers-on at court. Prior to his religious revolution the chief deity of the 18th dynasty was Amen or Amen-Ra after absorbing the portfolio of the older sungod of the Egyptians. Aten had something to do with the sun and is usually portrayed as sunrays coming from the solar disk I think. Interesting story but ultimately a footnote. :)

I can't think but wanting to move out of the old house and into a new house, but taking what curious and bric-a-brac with me that I find to be useful. The old religions are pretty much just, I don't know, developmental: paganism was outgrown, Christianity is being outgrown, but this doesn't take away from the need for some sort of existential security blanket and it could be that Eliade's theory of the eternal return does have some basis in fact- but I'm more convinced by the material component than anything supposedly sacred. Folk stories or folk wisdom are nice and homey but I've never been convinced of any ultimate truth in them.

[Trog]

:thumb001:




http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=479&pictureid=3839

Islam, well you tell me:(

Muslims may have raped (MAY) she's still wearing make-up so, I have my doubts if its genuine. Islam is not to blame, but at least she was permitted to live. Pagans slay their victims then have to eat their remains.


This Pagan Ritual Abuse crime trapped an American Child in Kindergarten in to a proclaimed Global Illuminati agenda.

The Ritual Abuse Crime is known as "Dog Raping" where the Pagan Shamans rape the penis of a the said victim who is now 31 years old with dogs licking his genitalia.

The resulting Astral Paradigm is "painted on to Peter Jackson's King Kong psychic paradigm" and used as a "Wartime Model or Figure" for Barbara Marciniak's Spiritual Infinity Mecca in Lake Tahoe, CA.

This "Dog Raping" pagan technique is a form of psychhic harassment and their own self empowerement via negative vicarious sexual death of victim practiced as a mortality sexual fetish by astral warriors from New Zealand and the Pleiades who are creating and feeding on the negative energy of victims death and rebirth soul in the mecca of spiritual infinity anchored at Burning Man.


The shaman uses the psychic 3rd eye chakra and birth chakra of the dogs after "licking" the victim psychotically to prevent the psychic 3rd eye or birth chakra of other unwanted pagans from experiencing the Spiritual Infinity Mecca.

The victims entire life has been enslaved by this Pagan Ritual and the forced victimization is not allowed to live, ascend or have sex without being "psychically raped or inconvienently harassed" by the shamans dogs so that the shaman may continue his Astral Spiritual Infinity Ritual.

It is called the Anti-Christ and it is a Pagan technique used to prevent a person from ascending, either the victim or unwanted Pagans attempting to see or benefit from the Space Tribe's Astral Mecca.

This Pagan ritual is pre-meditated some 150 years ago off planet by a Pleiadian Star Emissary and "New Age Woman" named Barbara Marciniak who physically lives in Apex, NC. www.Pleiadians.com

Barbara Marciniak outlined her plan in a forum at the New College Learning Annex at 777 Valencia Street San Francisco, CA 94110 where a SF Chronicle Reporter named Hank Hyena reported. Her outline described exactly the Pagan Ritual Abuse Agenda that I am the victim of and can be read at the following URL:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/1999/05/18/hyena.DTL

[Lumi]

Muslims may have raped (MAY) she's still wearing make-up so, I have my doubts if its genuine. Islam is not to blame, but at least she was permitted to live. Pagans slay their victims then have to eat their remains.

That is utter bullshit and you know it.
I don't know what Pagans you've come across, but the majority don't partake in the slaying and eating of people. It goes against the Rules of our religion, to practice peace, respect and to treat others as we would wish to be treated, to only harm another if they intend to harm you. THAT is the Law that Pagan faiths follow.
Get a fucking grip.

[Trog]

That is utter bullshit and you know it.
I don't know what Pagans you've come across, but the majority don't partake in the slaying and eating of people. It goes against the Rules of our religion, to practice peace, respect and to treat others as we would wish to be treated, to only harm another if they intend to harm you. THAT is the Law that Pagan faiths follow.
Get a fucking grip.


So you deny ritual sacrifice features in paganism?

[Osweo]

I can't think but wanting to move out of the old house and into a new house, but taking what curious and bric-a-brac with me that I find to be useful.
Ah, but the house is HUMANITY! You CAN'T 'move out'! :cool:

And future generations always decry the actions of over hasty forebears who made unfortunate decisions about what to throw away and what to keep, having been motivated more or less by passing fashion... :(

Folk stories or folk wisdom are nice and homey but I've never been convinced of any ultimate truth in them.
The only truths worth knowing are therein, actually. What the sun is made of and how many elements there are are rather by the bye. I'm a human being, and human matters are more intimately relevant to me.

********

And Trog, you read some sick shit. :coffee:

********

And Lumi, traditional European religion doesn't have 'Rules' as such. That's some bollocks dreamt up by those who can't get out of the Jehovah paradigm. The nearest we have is a set of stated aphorisms attributed to divine authorship, that are more or less self-evident things to those with half an ounce of good sense. Like in the Havamal where Odin says 'Do good, it'll make you feel better' or whatever he said. :D

[Pyramidologist]

Islam has values for creating a responsible society

Muslims believe in polygamy, if you read the Koran, it states Muhammad had many wives and over 50 concubines. He also married a child bride, Aisha. Not at all 'responsible' or moral...

[Pyramidologist]

Muslims may have raped (MAY) she's still wearing make-up so, I have my doubts if its genuine. Islam is not to blame, but at least she was permitted to live. Pagans slay their victims then have to eat their remains.

Horrible comment.

That innocent girl was gangbanged by Somali immigrants. Virtually all the rapes in Scandinavia are non-white on white.

Those sick bastards should be castrated.

[Mercury]

Horrible comment.

That innocent girl was gangbanged by Somali immigrants. Virtually all the rapes in Scandinavia are non-white on white.

Those sick bastards should be castrated.

That woman comes off like a typical conspiracy theorist.

[Lumi]

They were rules to live by of sorts, Osweo.
If you did good, you weren't punished. If you did bad, you got the living bejesus kicked out of you.

[Pyramidologist]

That woman comes off like a typical conspiracy theorist tard. "Fake.. everythings fake!"

Probably a David Icke nut.

[Mercury]

They were rules to live by of sorts, Osweo.
If you did good, you weren't punished. If you did bad, you got the living bejesus kicked out of you.

Sometimes even if you were doing good, you would get thrown into a giant wicker man and burned alive. There is also evidence, prior to the invasion from Rome, British Druids were mass-sacrificing people to the Gods. Probably for good luck against the Romans. I doubt all those people did wrong.

[Wulfhere]

Outside of this particular viewpoint what else is there? People can, and do, believe the most idiotic things based upon nothing more than wishful thinking, flights of fancy, and the like.

Great claims require great proof and claims of ancestral gods, crucified gods, and the like are just that- claims without a shred of empirical proof. A pagan claiming an experience of "unsubstantiated personal gnosis" or some Christian claiming an experience of "the holy spirit" can't offer any evidentiary testimony other than to what amounts as hearsay. Any credulous bumpkin or a person who takes things simply on faith might buy such accounts and that's it I think.

It's a feeling of the numinous, which you obviously just don't get. The difference between Paganism and monotheistic religions is that the latter claim to know everything. The difference between Paganism and atheism is... well, the same.

[Lumi]

Sometimes even if you were doing good, you would get thrown into a giant wicker man and burned alive. There is also evidence, prior to the invasion from Rome, British Druids were mass-sacrificing people to the Gods. Probably for good luck against the Romans. I doubt all those people did wrong.

The Incas sacrificed children. It was considered an honour.
Just as it probably was by the druids and any other Pagan religions that practiced ritual sacrifice.

[Wulfhere]

So you deny ritual sacrifice features in paganism?

Having been involved in the Pagan movement since the 1980s I can tell you that no ritual sacrifice features in Paganism.

It may have done in the past, thousands of years ago. But unlike monotheistic religions with their holy, unchanging books, Paganism can evolve.

[PetiteParisienne]

As people evolve and - in the best situations - learn from their mistakes, it makes sense that spiritual beliefs and practices would evolve in kind. Human sacrifice is a perfect example. I don't think pagans today should be thought of as 'phoney' because they no longer kill people. It is a sign of progress.

[Osweo]

They were rules to live by of sorts, Osweo.
If you did good, you weren't punished. If you did bad, you got the living bejesus kicked out of you.

Not a human society that has ever existed has been without rules. But you saying that you as a Pagan have certain specific life-rules because of this, and FROM this, is a bit daft. What was 'good' and 'bad' were more or less unspoken and tacitly understood, rather than 'set in stone' like the Commandments of the Jews.

That 'spreading peace' thing you said especially grated on my ears! :D Where the hell did you get THAT from1?!1?!11

[Pyramidologist]

Not a human society that has ever existed has been without rules. But you saying that you as a Pagan have certain specific life-rules because of this, and FROM this, is a bit daft. What was 'good' and 'bad' were more or less unspoken and tacitly understood, rather than 'set in stone' like the Commandments of the Jews.

That 'spreading peace' thing you said especially grated on my ears! :D Where the hell did you get THAT from1?!1?!11

All religion or faith is primitive. Races with the lowest IQ are the most superstitious, religious, fundamentalist etc.

See this link and graph -

IQ and Religiosity by Country
http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm

Nigerians for example think spirits create the Lunar or Solar eclipses, and they have one of the lowest IQ's. IQ & religiosity perfectly correlate.

High IQ = No religion
Low IQ = Religious

At the same time, atheistic fundamentalists give the non-religious or agnostic(scientific) community a bad name because they have turned being skeptical of traditional religion itself into a secular humanism or transhumanism school, which itself is faith based, or a 'new age' sort of religion.

[Supreme American]

Probably a David Icke nut.

How about UFO Phil who has been talking to them since he was 5 years old? He's going to build a pyramid on Pike's Peak. He'll beat back the US Forest Service if he has to!

:thumb001:

[Loddfafner]

Muslims may have raped (MAY) she's still wearing make-up so, I have my doubts if its genuine. Islam is not to blame, but at least she was permitted to live. Pagans slay their victims then have to eat their remains.

If you are going to throw every single culture that has ever functioned prior to, or outside of, the Abrahamic faiths, along with the content of the delusional fantasies of contemporary nutcases into a catch-all category of Paganism, you are bound to find some colorful and horrific practices that are obviously not typical of everyone else in that category.

[Teyrn]

It's a feeling of the numinous, which you obviously just don't get. The difference between Paganism and monotheistic religions is that the latter claim to know everything. The difference between Paganism and atheism is... well, the same.

I operate under the assumption that I don't know it all, which is the starting point of inquiry and curiosity. I agree that that monotheism and atheism are both all-or-nothing belief systems but I scoff at the notion that I "just don't get" something "numinous." (?) I've had Christians say similar things to me and such statements are to me very... nebulous. :wink I don't get it because I don't what- believe in stories of spirits and sorcery? Folk deities? Miracles? If this us the case then: no I don't.

[Teyrn]

Ah, but the house is HUMANITY! You CAN'T 'move out'! :cool:

And future generations always decry the actions of over hasty forebears who made unfortunate decisions about what to throw away and what to keep, having been motivated more or less by passing fashion... :(

The only truths worth knowing are therein, actually. What the sun is made of and how many elements there are are rather by the bye. I'm a human being, and human matters are more intimately relevant to me.

The house is mankind, like the theory of the cosmic man?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Man

A renovated paganism can't be the sort of primitive paganism of the past. If it regenerates into a new form then it's not really an ancestral religion per se (since it's not going to be practiced in the same way as the ancestors of whatever nation centuries ago) but is merely picking up where it left off, using the interpolations of Christianity to its advantage, if I follow you earlier analogy correctly.

Human matters are important to me but, silly futurist that I am, I can't help but try to wonder just exactly where the race is going. :)

[Supreme American]

The Incas sacrificed children. It was considered an honour.
Just as it probably was by the druids and any other Pagan religions that practiced ritual sacrifice.

What backward fucks.

[RagnarLodbrok666]

What backward fucks.

At least only a few backward fucks did those things in druidic nations. Cults that offered young and animals in blood sacriface there didn't last very long and were not connected to the Celtic deities.

[Trog]

Having been involved in the Pagan movement since the 1980s I can tell you that no ritual sacrifice features in Paganism.

It may have done in the past, thousands of years ago. But unlike monotheistic religions with their holy, unchanging books, Paganism can evolve.


Why do you speak of Paganism as though it is an established faith or religion? Paganism is merely a useful term to describe every other religion apart from the three monotheistic faiths. You are no different from a primitive cult from the deepest jungles in South America, Sub-Saharan Africa or the Pacific islands. The sophisticated impact Judaism, Christianity and Islam have had on civilisation speaks volumes for their ability to advance societies, so it is painfully ironic that you speak of paganism evolving, when it is a return to a pre-civilised, degenerate state.

Apart from anything else, what indeed is the point of adopting a religion if you feel it has no consequence for you after this life? Could it be that it is being erroneously paraded in here because its simply fashionable to do so? There's no other point to these ridiculous cults.

[Trog]

If you are going to throw every single culture that has ever functioned prior to, or outside of, the Abrahamic faiths, along with the content of the delusional fantasies of contemporary nutcases into a catch-all category of Paganism, you are bound to find some colorful and horrific practices that are obviously not typical of everyone else in that category.

That is the exact definition of paganism! It's a reference to every other religion outside the main 3 established ones. So take your pick, sweetie. Which wan are ye?

[Joe McCarthy]

I don't think many European pagans though. A lot of the people who defeated the Muslims earlier on were fresh from their conversion to Christianity from Paganism. They had still not given up many of their pagan traditions and customs for the most part. The crusader spirit was driven by a spirit of master morality, which centered around those countries in the Germanic nation.

The energies of Christianity were largely re-directed and re-structured in a positivistic manner, which centered around the Pagan approach to reality. Europeans would never give up on this positivistic manner of approaching reality, and this would crop up within the frameworks of Europe's socio-cultural affairs.


The Reformation was largely a result of the fact that Christian sentiment was largely a stagnant mass, which only acted as a catalyst or energy force that was eventually re-directed and re-organized around Paganistic instincts and drives.

You've just strangely called a bunch of Christians pagans. :coffee:

Describing the feats of the Crusaders as pagan is particularly outrageous.

[Stars Down To Earth]

The sophisticated impact Judaism, Christianity and Islam have had on civilisation
Because the ancient Greek city-states weren't sophisticated at all. And the pagan Romans were a bunch of uncivilised idiots. :rolleyes:

The hysterical praising of the Semitic religions, particularly the rape-religion Islam, while slagging off the Indo-European pagan religions, strikes me as a rather pathetic sort of ethnic self-hatred.


Apart from anything else, what indeed is the point of adopting a religion if you feel it has no consequence for you after this life?
I dunno who this this question was directed at, but I'll give my own answer to this: I don't believe in an afterlife, or at least not one that is decided by a manmade religion. Which all religions are. I'm rather non-religious, as you might have noticed. My preference for Germanic paganism over the Semitic religions is mainly because I feel more connected to its value system and worldview (polytheistic religions, as a general rule, are often intellectually superior to monotheism), and because it's an organic part of my own heritage that stretches back thousands of years.

[Wulfhere]

I operate under the assumption that I don't know it all, which is the starting point of inquiry and curiosity. I agree that that monotheism and atheism are both all-or-nothing belief systems but I scoff at the notion that I "just don't get" something "numinous." (?) I've had Christians say similar things to me and such statements are to me very... nebulous. :wink I don't get it because I don't what- believe in stories of spirits and sorcery? Folk deities? Miracles? If this us the case then: no I don't.

Your very words prove you don't get it, because a feeling of the numinous has nothing to do with stories.

[Wulfhere]

Why do you speak of Paganism as though it is an established faith or religion? Paganism is merely a useful term to describe every other religion apart from the three monotheistic faiths. You are no different from a primitive cult from the deepest jungles in South America, Sub-Saharan Africa or the Pacific islands. The sophisticated impact Judaism, Christianity and Islam have had on civilisation speaks volumes for their ability to advance societies, so it is painfully ironic that you speak of paganism evolving, when it is a return to a pre-civilised, degenerate state.

Apart from anything else, what indeed is the point of adopting a religion if you feel it has no consequence for you after this life? Could it be that it is being erroneously paraded in here because its simply fashionable to do so? There's no other point to these ridiculous cults.

Each race and ethnic group has its own form of Paganism, from the jungles of darkest Africa to the highly sophisticated civilisations of Greece and Rome. When Christianity took over the latter, it plunged it into a millenium-long dark age.

Your comments about adopting a religion becaue of what it claims to know about the afterlife reveal quite a lot more than I suspect you intended. Christians are basically scared.

Paganism is a life-affirming religion and opinions about the afterlife, or even if there is one, differ extremely widely in it.

[Belenus]

As far as I can tell, Islam hasn't done much to advance any of its societies. Christianity didn't do too much of that either while it was busy persecuting science and logical thinkers for a few thousand years. The Abrahamic faiths are overbearing and tend to stifle creative thought. Not to mention they (sans Judaism) promote the kind of universalism that considers all human beings to be equal, which is at the core an argument for miscegenation and racial dissolution.

Paganism was the way of life for the Greeks and Romans, who created philosophy and the basis of our legal system. It was after the fall of paganism and the rise of Christianity that science became taboo and Europe plunged into a dark age.

I'm not against all aspects of Christianity. Early Christian theology drew a lot from some pagan sources, and there were a few major pagan traditions within Christendom (such as grail lore, chivalric orders, etc.), but for the most part it has done severe psychological damage to our peoples.

Paganism is the natural state of European spirituality, and we must return to it.

[Pyramidologist]

The hysterical praising of the Semitic religions, particularly the rape-religion Islam, while slagging off the Indo-European pagan religions, strikes me as a rather pathetic sort of ethnic self-hatred.

No it's a family thing. If you are born into a Christian family, you are hardly going to go pick up the Norse Prose Edda or Hesiod's Theogony.

I was luckily enough born to non-religious (agnostic) parents, so i have explored all areas of religion from Christianity to Shinto.

I think all religious texts have historical truths (if rationally read) but none should be interpeted supernaturally or spirtually, these interpretations are a misunderstanding of how myths and folklore originated. People thousands of years ago were primitive, and so religion is just a reflection of the primitive mindset, a lack of scientific understanding. Millions of people though will still ignorantly continue to believe in spirits, devils with pitch forks, bearded floating sky men and so forth.

[Belenus]

No it's a family thing. If you are born into a Christian family, you are hardly going to go pick up the Norse Prose Edda or Hesiod's Theogony.

I was luckily enough born to non-religious (agnostic) parents, so i have explored all areas of religion from Christianity to Shinto.

I think all religious texts have historical truths (if rationally read) but none should be interpeted supernaturally or spirtually, these interpretations are a misunderstanding of how myths and folklore originated. People thousands of years ago were primitive, and so religion is just a reflection of the primitive mindset, a lack of scientific understanding. Millions of people though will still ignorantly continue to believe in spirits, devils with pitch forks, bearded floating sky men and so forth.

Even if you were born into a Christian family, if you're at all interested in advancing the interests of your race, you have a duty to embrace the traditions of your ancestors and abandon the foreign god. Christianity has rarely been good for Europe or its peoples. It has always stood in the way of racial awareness and free thought. Paganism is the true and original European religion. All that came later is a foreign intrusion and harmful to the European racial psyche.

Also, try not to be so high-handed and arrogant in your dismissal of religious views. Spirituality does not concern itself with evidence or rational thought, since that's not what it is about. Awareness of the divine and the numinous is a subjective matter. The supernatural is transcendental, thus it cannot be detected or measured by merely natural means. That is its very nature. If you don't 'feel' it, that's something you have to deal with in your own personal way.

[Teyrn]

Your very words prove you don't get it, because a feeling of the numinous has nothing to do with stories.

Convincing me of the truth or value of paganism is going to take more than an "I know better than you" sort of statement.

[Wulfhere]

Convincing me of the truth or value of paganism is going to take more than an "I know better than you" sort of statement.

I'm not the slightest bit interested in trying to convince you of anything.

[Pyramidologist]

I'm not the slightest bit interested in trying to convince you of anything.

Why the obsession with Mercia?

[Pyramidologist]

Trog,

Although i disagree with your stance on Islam, i fully agree with you regarding Lumi and Paganism.

Everything you said about Pagans having no morals is 100% true.

Look at this FILTH, as just revealed in another thread, see especially bold:


Okay, I'm going to be bold here.
I took part in a Fetish photoshoot. My first photoshoot ever, and I went further (of my own free will) than even I expected to. I did get naked and I had fun, and afterwards, the photographer paid me.
There was no one else. Just me.
It's not on the same level as porn, but people consider it to be.

Now, I'm going to be even bolder and tell you that I am indeed involved in the BDSM Scene. All voluntarily.
If enjoying being submissive and letting my boyfriend do what he wants (within reason) makes me any less of a person, then so be it. But I am still a person. And so are these women.
I know a girl who is a very famous fetish model and has been in movies. Is she any less of a person? A girl who I've known for years before she even got into this scene? No. She's still a person. She's still entitled to human rights. She still deserves to be treated with respect.
And people should. No matter what she happens to be involved in.
Real, well thought out porn isn't as gritty or degrading as a lot of the stuff out there.

Just throwing my two cents in there.

^ Pagan ''morality'' for ya. Utter filth. I have no idea why these sick people join a European preservation forum.

[Osweo]

I agree that that monotheism and atheism are both all-or-nothing belief systems but I scoff at the notion that I "just don't get" something "numinous." (?) I've had Christians say similar things to me and such statements are to me very... nebulous.
You just need to accept that you haven't got the peculiar aptitude or talent for religious feeling. However, you must also accept that OTHERS DO.

Believe it or not, the same facility is absent or dormant in myself. But I believe that there's too much evidence for something like this in others for me to laugh it off. There have been many men and women of developed cognitive powers and education who have spoken up for this side of reality. I've read and listened to several. I'm convinced that they are not merely self-deluded or in superstitious error.


The house is mankind, like the theory of the cosmic man?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Man
Heh, not what I had in mind, but a good metaphor too.

Ideas like that are what I was hinting at in my stress of the greater value of lore over science... ;)


A renovated paganism can't be the sort of primitive paganism of the past. If it regenerates into a new form then it's not really an ancestral religion per se (since it's not going to be practiced in the same way as the ancestors of whatever nation centuries ago) but is merely picking up where it left off, using the interpolations of Christianity to its advantage, if I follow you earlier analogy correctly.
I refuse to cast aside the Christian phase with utter scorn, like even some in this thread are doing, yes. It seems like a spoilt child's tantrum to talk like that. You read me well enough. I am not of the Seventh Century, but nor am I a rootless orphan.


No it's a family thing. If you are born into a Christian family, you are hardly going to go pick up the Norse Prose Edda or Hesiod's Theogony.
Hundreds of thousands HAVE. :shrug:


I think all religious texts have historical truths (if rationally read) but none should be interpeted supernaturally or spirtually, these interpretations are a misunderstanding of how myths and folklore originated. People thousands of years ago were primitive, and so religion is just a reflection of the primitive mindset, a lack of scientific understanding.
Your entire worldview is stuck in a Nineteenth Century morass of progressivism. However, people thousands of years ago were NOT knuckle dragging simpletons. This is a crude caricature lacking any sense, and it baffles me that one so apparently well read is stuck in it.

[Mercury]

I don't see how Christianity should be shrugged off as a mere Semitic faith. Let us remember how irrelevant linguistics are when it comes to things like race. The ancient Hebrews from the Old Testament were a Levantine people, racially similar to your average South Italian or Greek. Some descriptions of them in the Bible portray them as a Europid population as well. The area Jesus walked had a similar climate, people, and politics (Roman Empire) as Europe. Europeans are mentioned directly in the Bible through Noah's son Japheth, blessed and prophecized to inherit Shem's spiritual traditions and expand in land, wealth. The Apostle Paul spent most of his time preaching in areas that were racially European, and Jesus' church has it's capital in the Vatican, i.e. Europe.

Do you think it may be a tad egotistical and irrationally ethnocentric to assume the God of the Universe has to personally reach out to our culture in the same way he reached out to the Hebrews? If it got to our people through the Bible and Apostles, then it's obvious he didn't need to reach out to us. If things that are non-European in origin need to be rejected, then we may have to look at some of our ancient holidays like Halloween that were probably (or very likely) imported by Middle Eastern Neolithic invaders. Trying to figure out the most uncorrupted European religious belief is an unrealistic goal.

[Wulfhere]

Why the obsession with Mercia?

Not sure. Oh yes, that's it... because I'm Mercian.

[Belenus]

The sexual tendencies of individuals has nothing to do with paganism or pagan values. One could just as easily accuse Roman Catholicism of being a cult full of homosexual pederasts thanks to the actions of some perverted priests. The fact is, however, that most Catholics have healthy heterosexual relationships.

Paganism is the belief in the divine forces manifest in all aspects of the cosmos. Coming to be aware of these forces, understanding them, worshipping them, and even becoming them - that is paganism. Any concern paganism has with sexuality has generally been concentrated around the issue of fertility. As any pagan will tell you, our beliefs are life-affirming and natural. Our morals are the morals of the natural order.

A priesthood of celibate men, by stark contrast, is not natural, not healthy, and loaded with the potential for perverted and immoral degradations.

[RagnarLodbrok666]

The sexual tendencies of individuals has nothing to do with paganism or pagan values. One could just as easily accuse Roman Catholicism of being a cult full of homosexual pederasts thanks to the actions of some perverted priests. The fact is, however, that most Catholics have healthy heterosexual relationships.

Paganism is the belief in the divine forces manifest in all aspects of the cosmos. Coming to be aware of these forces, understanding them, worshipping them, and even becoming them - that is paganism. Any concern paganism has with sexuality has generally been concentrated around the issue of fertility. As any pagan will tell you, our beliefs are life-affirming and natural. Our morals are the morals of the natural order.

A priesthood of celibate men, by stark contrast, is not natural, not healthy, and loaded with the potential for perverted and immoral degradations.

It's alittle weird how all of that works. Pagans who do the fetish lifestyle/porn stuff are really not following anything and are not spiritual, these people are liberals. Cultural liberalism is something that poisons paganism, ruins it and promotes the kind of racial mixing that eats away at the gods themselves.

[Osweo]

Let us remember how irrelevant linguistics are when it comes to things like race.
What on Earth are you talking about biological matters for!?

This is an ethnocultural discussion, and in that sphere, one's language is VERY important. It shapes how we think and see the world. These matter are the bread and butter of ethnocultural similarity and difference. This is what the great over-arching Civilisations or Super-Ethnoses of the world are made up of.


If things that are non-European in origin need to be rejected, then we may have to look at some of our ancient holidays like Halloween that were probably (or very likely) imported by Middle Eastern Neolithic invaders.
Lollllzzz, that makes as much sense as Americans rejecting non-American things like the English language, or the use of the wheel!

We ARE those 'invaders', to a greater or lesser extent. Their stuff IS our native inheritance. And calling them 'Middle Eastern' is simplistic and deceptive. Every step of advance involved more absorption and assimilation. There's a reason most of us don't look like Yasser Arafat, you know. :coffee:

[heathen_son]

Yikes. This is a strange thread. Filled with forgivable ignorance, pointless anger, loopy people and plain old bullshit.

Rock on ravishankers! :thumbs up

[Teyrn]

You just need to accept that you haven't got the peculiar aptitude or talent for religious feeling. However, you must also accept that OTHERS DO.

Oh I do accept that others have religious ideation, but as you've seen I simply don't connect the dots like a believer in whatever particular faith does. At most I might determine that there's a moral lesson in a particular religious fable, or be entertained by it, but that's about it.


Believe it or not, the same facility is absent or dormant in myself. But I believe that there's too much evidence for something like this in others for me to laugh it off. There have been many men and women of developed cognitive powers and education who have spoken up for this side of reality. I've read and listened to several. I'm convinced that they are not merely self-deluded or in superstitious error.

Lack of religious inclination doesn't mean that someone can't feel some sort of connection to the "other." I wouldn't call it numinous like Wulfhere called it but from time to time I do have a sense of something.. else.

I was inclined to religious skepticism and from a pretty early age and this has only gotten stronger as I've gotten older. Materialism is the only thing that I can really properly accept because it's the only thing that makes sense given my own experiences- experiences which do include attempts at religiosity mind ye. :) The best thing to say is that no "switch" was ever flipped inside of me that turned on any real religious imperative.


Heh, not what I had in mind, but a good metaphor too.

Ideas like that are what I was hinting at in my stress of the greater value of lore over science... ;)

A harmony of the two is more ideal to me.


I refuse to cast aside the Christian phase with utter scorn, like even some in this thread are doing, yes. It seems like a spoilt child's tantrum to talk like that. You read me well enough. I am not of the Seventh Century, but nor am I a rootless orphan.

I like to point out the silliness of Christianity but also of paganism, atheism, etc. Alot of people are reacting only to Christianity, like some atheist pundit like a Dawkins or a Harris. These people specialize in debunking Christianity alone but if you put them up against someone who isn't a Christian alot of their argumentation is pretty much a wasted effort. I'm not out to decry Christianity as anything more than a human religion that is, well, just a human religion and not as God's One and Only Truth.

Christianity is important because it was the primary religion for the western world for some centuries and because the western nations were largely formed and came to final flowering in the Christian period. Indeed some countries wouldn't exist but for its direct influence (Spain, France, England, and so on) or indirect influence (U.S.A., which I regard as a post-Christian nation).

The people who want to get rid of Christianity in toto are quite silly to me.

[Pyramidologist]

I don't see how Christianity should be shrugged off as a mere Semitic faith. Let us remember how irrelevant linguistics are when it comes to things like race. The ancient Hebrews from the Old Testament were a Levantine people, racially similar to your average South Italian or Greek. Some descriptions of them in the Bible portray them as a Europid population as well. The area Jesus walked had a similar climate, people, and politics (Roman Empire) as Europe. Europeans are mentioned directly in the Bible through Noah's son Japheth, blessed and prophecized to inherit Shem's spiritual traditions and expand in land, wealth. The Apostle Paul spent most of his time preaching in areas that were racially European, and Jesus' church has it's capital in the Vatican, i.e. Europe.

Do you think it may be a tad egotistical and irrationally ethnocentric to assume the God of the Universe has to personally reach out to our culture in the same way he reached out to the Hebrews? If it got to our people through the Bible and Apostles, then it's obvious he didn't need to reach out to us. If things that are non-European in origin need to be rejected, then we may have to look at some of our ancient holidays like Halloween that were probably (or very likely) imported by Middle Eastern Neolithic invaders. Trying to figure out the most uncorrupted European religious belief is an unrealistic goal.

All true, the dispersal of the noachites (descendants of noah) only deals with Caucasoid peoples. Mongoloids and Negroids were not even known to the authors of the Old Testament.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/blackgoatcabal/map5.jpg

[Mercury]

What on Earth are you talking about biological matters for!?

This is an ethnocultural discussion, and in that sphere, one's language is VERY important. It shapes how we think and see the world. These matter are the bread and butter of ethnocultural similarity and difference. This is what the great over-arching Civilisations or Super-Ethnoses of the world are made up of.

What does a Hebrew speaking levantine have in common with a Yemenite Arabic speaker? Are you suggesting a Gaelic-speaking Irishmen would have a closer connection with Indians than Finns? One's language may be important, but putting such an emphasis on a language family is pseudo-science that I would expect on a Turanist forum. We didn't even have knowledge of such linguistic super-families until rather recently.


Lollllzzz, that makes as much sense as Americans rejecting non-American things like the English language, or the use of the wheel!

Exactly, you proved my point. Christianity is wholly European.



All true, the dispersal of the noachites (descendants of noah) only deals with Caucasoid peoples. Mongoloids and Negroids were not even known to the authors of the Old Testament.

I use to be of this belief, but the Curse of Ham seems to describe the fate of the negroid race moreso than anyone else. Hamites have to be Sub-saharan Africans.

[Osweo]

Oh I do accept that others have religious ideation, but as you've seen I simply don't connect the dots like a believer in whatever particular faith does. At most I might determine that there's a moral lesson in a particular religious fable, or be entertained by it, but that's about it.

Odd that the moral didactism is so often stressed. To me, it often seems quite secondary in importance in this sort of material. Jesus's parables are NOT the typological norm for this, it must be stressed.


Lack of religious inclination doesn't mean that someone can feel some sort of connection to the "other." I wouldn't call it numinous like Wulfhere called it but from time to time I do have a sense of something.. else.
Sounds pretty much like a low-key taster of numinosity to me. WHy not use that recognised term for it? Seems just obstinate to me. :shrug:


A harmony of the two is more ideal to me.
Naturally.

But wait...

Indeed some countries wouldn't exist but for its direct influence (Spain, France, England
EH?!?!!? :eek:

[Teyrn]

Odd that the moral didactism is so often stressed. To me, it often seems quite secondary in importance in this sort of material. Jesus's parables are NOT the typological norm for this, it must be stressed.

Alot of what Jesus said is some variation of a themes already existent in archaic Judaism.


Sounds pretty much like a low-key taster of numinosity to me. WHy not use that recognised term for it? Seems just obstinate to me. :shrug:

I'm just funny that way. :)


But wait...

EH?!?!!? :eek:

Aidan, Augustine, and the other Christian missionaries did have at least some effect in what became England didn't they? ;) I'm going to say I only "know what I've read" and that the physical unification of England was a process that took place largely after the pagan period ended and the heptarchy was gone, i.e. by the Wessex monarchs. I'm probably out of my depth here tho. :D

[Solin]

Christianity has shown itself to consist of nothing more than a bunch of spineless, craven appeasers, happy to bend over backwards to abandon their principles and adopt Muslim ones. It's no accident that more and more people are turning to Paganism.

I do not see why would paganism be the only hope against islam or why would any religion today be the only hope against islam.

PATRIOTISM is the only hope against islam

[Osweo]

What does a Hebrew speaking levantine have in common with a Yemenite Arabic speaker?
A great deal more than you appear to be aware of. Eeee, I don't wanna write it all out for you; it's up to you to educate yourseld, but you could do worse than to start with Spengler's Decline of the West for some insight into this.


Are you suggesting a Gaelic-speaking Irishmen would have a closer connection with Indians than Finns?
This particular example is not the best, given the deep influence of IE superstratum on Finnish, and likely non-IE substratum on Irish and Hindi. However, the simple mechanics of the syntax and morphology WILL have some impact on the way of thinking of the speakers. This is far from my own little idea, and is widely acknowledged. I just forget the official academic terms for it. I bet there's a big fat Wiki page on it, though!


One's language may be important, but putting such an emphasis on a language family is pseudo-science that I would expect on a Turanist forum. We didn't even have knowledge of such linguistic super-families until rather recently.
You prompted my comments with an equally or more silly emphasis on biological race. :shrug: I haven't claimed for a second that language is the be all and end all. I'm just corrected what I saw to be a significant omission in your remarks.



Exactly, you proved my point. Christianity is wholly European.
Er... how did I prove that!? Any fool can see that it's not 'wholly' European, anyway.

[Lumi]

It's alittle weird how all of that works. Pagans who do the fetish lifestyle/porn stuff are really not following anything and are not spiritual, these people are liberals. Cultural liberalism is something that poisons paganism, ruins it and promotes the kind of racial mixing that eats away at the gods themselves.

Difference is... I'm none of the above.
Not a liberal (as I have mentioned before), and I do follow something. The Norse Gods.


Trog,

Although i disagree with your stance on Islam, i fully agree with you regarding Lumi and Paganism.

Everything you said about Pagans having no morals is 100% true.

Look at this FILTH, as just revealed in another thread, see especially bold:



^ Pagan ''morality'' for ya. Utter filth. I have no idea why these sick people join a European preservation forum.

Actually, I have a damn sight more morals than a lot of people.
I never asked that photographer to pay me. He just did. And I partake in that lifestyle behind closed doors and because frankly, I find vanilla sex to be downright boring.
What my sexuality is like has absolutely fuck all to do with my religion, and you are a fool to lump those two together. It's like trying to fit a square block into a triangle-shaped hole. It doesn't work.
Paganism =/= Kink.

Gods you're pathetic. First you take a hit at my boyfriend and now you take a hit at me because Loki owned your ass for it. Grow the Hell up and go take a long walk off a short pier.
If you think I give a crap as to what people, especially you, think of me then you are sorely mistaken.

[Pyramidologist]

Difference is... I'm none of the above.
Not a liberal (as I have mentioned before), and I do follow something. The Norse Gods.



Actually, I have a damn sight more morals than a lot of people.
I never asked that photographer to pay me. He just did. And I partake in that lifestyle behind closed doors and because frankly, I find vanilla sex to be downright boring.
What my sexuality is like has absolutely fuck all to do with my religion, and you are a fool to lump those two together. It's like trying to fit a square block into a triangle-shaped hole. It doesn't work.
Paganism =/= Kink.

Gods you're pathetic. First you take a hit at my boyfriend and now you take a hit at me because Loki owned your ass for it. Grow the Hell up and go take a long walk off a short pier.
If you think I give a crap as to what people, especially you, think of me then you are sorely mistaken.

You are on my ignore, but this is worth responding so others can see what type of person you are.

You've posted a disturbing comment that you like and partake in BDSM and that you like being sexually ''dominated''. This is vile enough. Then you posted you strip your clothes off for pornographic photography.

Then i was informed recently you posted in the message box that you have been raped. Everything you posted there has been logged and many other users witnessed your very controversial posted claims.

You mention Loki, but i have no idea why he hasn't taken action against you.

The claim you have been raped, you should take to the authorities (police). Instead you've joined a European preservation site (of all places) to post your sexual perversions that you like to be ''dominated'' (whatever filth that is), and that you've been raped, all of it seems very out of place. Most people come here to discuss or debate about history, politics or anthropology...

The claim you have been raped is a very serious claim, and very unusual someone would discuss something like that on a public message box for hundreds of people to see.

I knew you were trouble from day one, it's why i put you on my ignore after four posts. Readers can read this and decide for themselves. Goodbye.

[Belenus]

Might I suggest you two take this particular disagreement elsewhere? I've already established that the sexual tendencies of individuals are not pertinent to the topic of discussion in this thread, unless you can somehow prove that the doctrine of a particular religion specifically promotes a certain type of sexual behaviour.

Also, Osweo, I think the term you were looking for is linguistic relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity). I certainly believe there's something to it, as the experience of learning German definitely expanded the limits of my worldview and gave it a certain 'form' it hadn't had when I only spoke English.

[morski]

A great deal more than you appear to be aware of. Eeee, I don't wanna write it all out for you; it's up to you to educate yourseld, but you could do worse than to start with Spengler's Decline of the West for some insight into this.

This particular example is not the best, given the deep influence of IE superstratum on Finnish, and likely non-IE substratum on Irish and Hindi. However, the simple mechanics of the syntax and morphology WILL have some impact on the way of thinking of the speakers. This is far from my own little idea, and is widely acknowledged. I just forget the official academic terms for it. I bet there's a big fat Wiki page on it, though!

You prompted my comments with an equally or more silly emphasis on biological race. :shrug: I haven't claimed for a second that language is the be all and end all. I'm just corrected what I saw to be a significant omission in your remarks.

Er... how did I prove that!? Any fool can see that it's not 'wholly' European, anyway.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity


Anyway... alcohol is our best hope against Islam.:D

[Pyramidologist]

Might I suggest you two take this particular disagreement elsewhere? I've already established that the sexual tendencies of individuals are not pertinent to the topic of discussion in this thread, unless you can somehow prove that the doctrine of a particular religion specifically promotes a certain type of sexual behaviour.

Paganism promotes homosexuality. The Abrahamic religions don't. Paganism also promotes polygamy, while the Abrahamic religions (excluding Islam) monogamy. I'm not religious, but i think Judeo-Christianity as bad as it is in certain areas, at least has promoted certain traditional family values, which are very lacking in Paganism.

Pagans are sexual deviants.

[Teyrn]

Paganism promotes homosexuality. The Abrahamic religions don't. Paganism also promotes polygamy, while the Abrahamic religions (excluding Islam) monogamy. I'm not religious, but i think Judeo-Christianity as bad as it is in certain areas, at least has promoted certain traditional family values, which are very lacking in Paganism.

Pagans are sexual deviants.

Do you even take yourself seriously with statements like that? :confused: How many Catholic priests have been revealed to be pedos, how many evangelical blowhards have been revealed to be gaylords? What about the polygamous Mormons?

[Wulfhere]

Paganism promotes homosexuality. The Abrahamic religions don't. Paganism also promotes polygamy, while the Abrahamic religions (excluding Islam) monogamy. I'm not religious, but i think Judeo-Christianity as bad as it is in certain areas, at least has promoted certain traditional family values, which are very lacking in Paganism.

Pagans are sexual deviants.

Sexual deviants by whose definition?

[Loddfafner]

Paganism promotes homosexuality. The Abrahamic religions don't. Paganism also promotes polygamy, while the Abrahamic religions (excluding Islam) monogamy. I'm not religious, but i think Judeo-Christianity as bad as it is in certain areas, at least has promoted certain traditional family values, which are very lacking in Paganism.

Pagans are sexual deviants.


Do you even take yourself seriously with statements like that? :confused: How many Catholic priests have been revealed to be pedos, how many evangelical blowhards have been revealed to be gaylords? What about the polygamous Mormons?

Pagans tend to me more honest about these matters than Abrahamics, although unfortunately a lot of Norse heathens carry on the worst of Christian values.

[Lumi]

You are on my ignore, but this is worth responding so others can see what type of person you are.

You've posted a disturbing comment that you like and partake in BDSM and that you like being sexually ''dominated''. This is vile enough. Then you posted you strip your clothes off for pornographic photography.

Then i was informed recently you posted in the message box that you have been raped. Everything you posted there has been logged and many other users witnessed your very controversial posted claims.

You mention Loki, but i have no idea why he hasn't taken action against you.

The claim you have been raped, you should take to the authorities (police). Instead you've joined a European preservation site (of all places) to post your sexual perversions that you like to be ''dominated'' (whatever filth that is), and that you've been raped, all of it seems very out of place. Most people come here to discuss or debate about history, politics or anthropology...

The claim you have been raped is a very serious claim, and very unusual someone would discuss something like that on a public message box for hundreds of people to see.

I knew you were trouble from day one, it's why i put you on my ignore after four posts. Readers can read this and decide for themselves. Goodbye.



You know what? I'm not even going to react to that pile of crock you just posted. I'm better than that.

Just leave my boyfriend alone. Don't reply to him, don't message him. And if you spout anymore crap about me, your ass will be reported.

[Pyramidologist]

Do you even take yourself seriously with statements like that? :confused: How many Catholic priests have been revealed to be pedos, how many evangelical blowhards have been revealed to be gaylords? What about the polygamous Mormons?

I'm talking about what the Bible itself says. The scripture promotes family values and is anti-homosexual. Most Pagans however have no such text, or laws, and they are pro-homosexual and sexually deviant.

Let's not deny the obvious, Western tradition of familialism, patriarchy and the nucleur family, has most of its origins with Judeo-Christianity. This is why although most people in the West are not exactly religious, still most want to preserve aspects of our Christian heritage.

[Pyramidologist]

Lumi, everything you posted about how you were raped is logged.

I'm sure your ISP, the police and parents should be informed.

[Lumi]

Lumi, everything you posted about how you were raped is logged.

I'm sure your ISP, the police and parents should be informed.

Yeah, and again, I reported it to the police two days after it happened. It's been investigated. It's over and done with. He's walking a free man because it came down to my word against his and it was neither proved nor disproved. Case closed until he tries it again with another girl.
My parents already know what happened to me, as do my Grandparents.
As for my ISP, well, it ain't none of their business.

[Ville]

... then out come the Christian apologists and the battle is joined. Clearly then Christianity is not spent and worn-out if people are willing and able to defend it so zealously, in which case the neo-pagans have their work cut out for them.

That Christian zealots have to come out and fight for supremacy is a yet another confirmation they (and the spirit they represent) ARE spent.

Intimate and therefore true beliefs (that may or may not be linked to a group dogma) satisfy the embedded in our mind need for coherent metaphysics; these beliefs are more adaptable to empirical discovery than the dogma.

As an agnostic (or atheist; I really don’t think there is any key difference between the qualifiers) I suppose every reflective soul that is trying to comprehend his/her place in the universe is, to certain degree, a pagan.

But when “paganism” positions itself as an ideology, it indeed competes with the already spent Christianity and, therefore, dead on arrival.

[Loddfafner]

I'm talking about what the Bible itself says. The scripture promotes family values and is anti-homosexual.

Tell that to David and Jonathan. There is a stronger case for it being anti-masturbation (ask Onan). As for family values in the Bible, there are some seriously fucked-up families starting with the very first one.

[Odoacer]

Tell that to David and Jonathan.

Citing David & Jonathan as an alleged example of homosexuality is simply pathetic.

[Pallantides]

You've posted a disturbing comment that you like and partake in BDSM and that you like being sexually ''dominated''. This is vile enough. Then you posted you strip your clothes off for pornographic photography.

I see nothing wrong with this, a lot of people enjoy BDSM. It don't make them bad or filthy humans.

[Graham]

You know what? I'm not even going to react to that pile of crock you just posted. I'm better than that.

Just leave my boyfriend alone. Don't reply to him, don't message him. And if you spout anymore crap about me, your ass will be reported.

Ignore that cretinous little nyaff. Maybe it'll go away.

[Loddfafner]

I see nothing wrong with this, a lot of people enjoy BDSM. It don't make them bad or filthy humans.

It just makes them bruised but happy humans.

One key difference between Pagans and Christians on this matter is that Christians put SM porn in their religious artwork. I can't think of any examples of Pagans or Heathens doing the same. It is not just the ubiquitous image of an almost-naked male strapped to a cross and bleeding, but a lot of medieval paintings of martyrdoms could really get a practicing sadomasochist drooling and leaking. Many feature more whippings than a Berlin dungeon. How many bisexual goth-chicks have moistened their panties over St. Catherine strapped to her wheel?

And don't forget St Sebastian:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Sebastia.jpg

[Mercury]

A great deal more than you appear to be aware of

Yeah, the connection doesn't exist.




However, the simple mechanics of the syntax and morphology WILL have some impact on the way of thinking of the speakers.

Such as? It's never been proven. And even if it's proven, it won't be anything major.


This is far from my own little idea, and is widely acknowledged. I just forget the official academic terms for it. I bet there's a big fat Wiki page on it, though!

Even in Semitic-speakers had some obscure, unidentifiable personality traits that Indo-Europeans speakers may have, let's not forget the Jews were Hellenic-speaking, and under a semi-Hellenic culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_Judaism), for much of their existence. And it may shock some people on here that the second half of the Bible was written in Greek. Is that Indo-European enough for you Euro-centric lunatics?



You prompted my comments with an equally or more silly emphasis on biological race. :shrug: I haven't claimed for a second that language is the be all and end all. I'm just corrected what I saw to be a significant omission in your remarks.

An emphasis on race is anything but silly. Caring so much about linguistic super-families that we had no clue about for most of our existence is misguided.



Er... how did I prove that!? Any fool can see that it's not 'wholly' European, anyway.

Depends on the sects. But the oldest branches of Christianity blend nicely with European cultures. It should be pointed out that the concept of "Europe" was irrelevant to the ancient Romans. They would've had more in common with the North African parts of their Empire rather than some tribe in Germania. And it was only until the Northern Europeans adopted Christianity (thus learning the ways of Romans/Greeks) they prospered.

Perhaps Christianity is not "European" (whatever that means. Like I said, no one gave a shit about that vague term before Western Civilization) but people inhabiting the European continent have greatly been influenced by Christianity.

[Odoacer]

However, the simple mechanics of the syntax and morphology WILL have some impact on the way of thinking of the speakers. This is far from my own little idea, and is widely acknowledged. I just forget the official academic terms for it. I bet there's a big fat Wiki page on it, though!

Are you thinking of Sapir-Whorf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_Hypothesis), i.e., linguistic relativity?

[Lumi]

It just makes them bruised but happy humans.

One key difference between Pagans and Christians on this matter is that Christians put SM porn in their religious artwork. I can't think of any examples of Pagans or Heathens doing the same. It is not just the ubiquitous image of an almost-naked male strapped to a cross and bleeding, but a lot of medieval paintings of martyrdoms could really get a practicing sadomasochist drooling and leaking. Many feature more whippings than a Berlin dungeon. How many bisexual goth-chicks have moistened their panties over St. Catherine strapped to her wheel?

And don't forget St Sebastian:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Sebastia.jpg

I didn't find that particularly erotic xD
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places :p xD

[The Ripper]

It just makes them bruised but happy humans.

One key difference between Pagans and Christians on this matter is that Christians put SM porn in their religious artwork. I can't think of any examples of Pagans or Heathens doing the same. It is not just the ubiquitous image of an almost-naked male strapped to a cross and bleeding, but a lot of medieval paintings of martyrdoms could really get a practicing sadomasochist drooling and leaking. Many feature more whippings than a Berlin dungeon. How many bisexual goth-chicks have moistened their panties over St. Catherine strapped to her wheel?

And don't forget St Sebastian:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Sebastia.jpg

Christianity has a tradition of suffering as sacrifice, of abstinence, of chastity, etc. Very much of "denying the flesh".

[Pyramidologist]

I see nothing wrong with this, a lot of people enjoy BDSM. It don't make them bad or filthy humans.

Well you wouldn't would you? You've posted what you look like, in your spare time you dress up in batman or goth capes, corpse paint etc. You aren't normal... people clicking on this forum expect to see a good representation of ethnic-Europeans - fit physically and mentally and moral. Instead they end up seeing immoral BDSMer's and goth/''witch'' type wierdo's.

:coffee:

[The Ripper]

people clicking on this forum expect to see a good representation of ethnic-Europeans...Instead they end up seeing... wierdo's.

Like a Pict? A member of nation that has been extinct for a 1000 years? There are many forms of dress-up and role-play, not just one. :rolleyes:

[Loddfafner]

Christianity has a tradition of suffering as sacrifice, of abstinence, of chastity, etc. Very much of "denying the flesh".

Yes, definitely. In Thomas Mann's Magic Mountain, the Jesuit character Naphta argued that early Northern Renaissance sculpture was deliberately warped and unrealistic precisely to reflect a rejection of the flesh.

[Lumi]

The Picts wore body pain, dyed their hair lighter with lime water. That's where they got their name from. "Pict" means "Painted".
Fail, Pyro. Major fail.

[Teyrn]

That Christian zealots have to come out and fight for supremacy is a yet another confirmation they (and the spirit they represent) ARE spent.

Intimate and therefore true beliefs (that may or may not be linked to a group dogma) satisfy the embedded in our mind need for coherent metaphysics; these beliefs are more adaptable to empirical discovery than the dogma.

As an agnostic (or atheist; I really don’t think there is any key difference between the qualifiers) I suppose every reflective soul that is trying to comprehend his/her place in the universe is, to certain degree, a pagan.

But when “paganism” positions itself as an ideology, it indeed competes with the already spent Christianity and, therefore, dead on arrival.

Christian apologetics goes back to the earliest days of the religion, first against the critics among the Jews and later among the pagans and finally between the warring bands of Christians themselves (Arians vs. Catholics for example). I wouldn't really consider apologists among the Christians to be an indicator of the religion being dead per se, at least no more than pagan apologists coming out to defend their respective beliefs. Seeing Christian apologists at work makes me thing that, at least, they feel a bit nervous- probably fearful of the devil's works in those dastardly beliefs of the materialistics and pagans. :P

[Kernunnos]

Christians might have done different things in the past. It's how they act now that's important.

Do you really think that a political will could establish a religion? To establish a new religion takes at least two important things, an epic and philosophy. Nothing that could be improvised or even carefully be built in the most sophisticated political lab.

Also, paganism was destroyed forever in Europe, modern paganism is just a vague reference to a totally lost set of idea and rituals that are impossible to reconstruct and reapply, as they were orally transmitted and went lost forever with christianization.

last but not least paganism is most often a by product of freemasonic drifts and currents, so it serves just anti-christian purposes and gnostic tenets.

In the end, as freemasonry is the most strong force behind multiracialism and alien invasion, becoming pagans would serve only anti-european purposes.

There is instead a good alternative to modern Christianity, it is called catholic traditionalism. For a traditional, pre Vatican II faithful, the principle of nation is a sacred one: a christian has a duty to serve firstly the interests of his family, then of its nations and only lastly, if he can, the interests of other races and nations.

Traditional catholics are growing slowly, even if their major drawback, a series of archaic prohibitions regarding even normal, heterosexual sexuality are keeping many christians from joining them.

Possibly the creation of orthodox national churches in western nations could be another solutions. Orthodox are less rigid in terms of sexuality, for example a single divorce is admitted under orthodoxy and priests can marry, a rule that existed until the eleven century under the catholic church.

As for myself I see no contradictions in being christian and a nationalist.I do not forget priests blessing the armies of Mussolini, franco, Salazar: I just refrain from adopting the marxist interpretation of the Gospel that is used by the majority of modern catholics.

[Wulfhere]

Do you really think that a political will could establish a religion? To establish a new religion takes at least two important things, an epic and philosophy. Nothing that could be improvised or even carefully be built in the most sophisticated political lab.

Also, paganism was destroyed forever in Europe, modern paganism is just a vague reference to a totally lost set of idea and rituals that are impossible to reconstruct and reapply, as they were orally transmitted and went lost forever with christianization.

last but not least paganism is most often a by product of freemasonic drifts and currents, so it serves just anti-christian purposes and gnostic tenets.

In the end, as freemasonry is the most strong force behind multiracialism and alien invasion, becoming pagans would serve only anti-european purposes.

There is instead a good alternative to modern Christianity, it is called catholic traditionalism. For a traditional, pre Vatican II faithful, the principle of nation is a sacred one: a christian has a duty to serve firstly the interests of his family, then of its nations and only lastly, if he can, the interests of other races and nations.

Traditional catholics are growing slowly, even if their major drawback, a series of archaic prohibitions regarding even normal, heterosexual sexuality are keeping many christians from joining them.

Possibly the creation of orthodox national churches in western nations could be another solutions. Orthodox are less rigid in terms of sexuality, for example a single divorce is admitted under orthodoxy and priests can marry, a rule that existed until the eleven century under the catholic church.

As for myself I see no contradictions in being christian and a nationalist.I do not forget priests blessing the armies of Mussolini, franco, Salazar: I just refrain from adopting the marxist interpretation of the Gospel that is used by the majority of modern catholics.

Paganism was not destroyed in Europe, for the simple reason that Paganism is the natural religious state of mankind, before the dogmatists come along.

Freemasonry certainly isn't Gnostic, and nor is it Pagan. To be a Freemason, one has to be a monotheist. Furthermore, Gnosticism and Paganism have almost nothing in common; Gnosticism is life-denying, whereas Paganism is life-affirming. Gnosticism grew out of Zoroastrian dualism, and it would be difficult to think of anything more alien to Northern European Paganism.

It's true that magical orders such as the Golden Dawn, and, eventually, Wicca, relied very heavily on Masonic ritual forms. But again, these have little or nothing to do with Northern Paganism.

[Osweo]

people clicking on this forum expect to see a good representation of ethnic-Europeans - fit physically and mentally and moral.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40542
:coffee:

[Kernunnos]

Paganism was not destroyed in Europe, for the simple reason that Paganism is the natural religious state of mankind, before the dogmatists come along.

Freemasonry certainly isn't Gnostic, and nor is it Pagan. To be a Freemason, one has to be a monotheist. Furthermore, Gnosticism and Paganism have almost nothing in common; Gnosticism is life-denying, whereas Paganism is life-affirming. Gnosticism grew out of Zoroastrian dualism, and it would be difficult to think of anything more alien to Northern European Paganism.

It's true that magical orders such as the Golden Dawn, and, eventually, Wicca, relied very heavily on Masonic ritual forms. But again, these have little or nothing to do with Northern Paganism.

So where are the books that preserve the old religions? You evade my question presenting paganism as a continuum since antiquity. Now, who preserved all this heritage? Who has it? Where is it? Can you present original writings that are not second hand, skeleton like tales of what was a robust tradition?

[Wulfhere]

So where are the books that preserve the old religions? You evade my question presenting paganism as a continuum since antiquity. Now, who preserved all this heritage? Who has it? Where is it? Can you present original writings that are not second hand, skeleton like tales of what was a robust tradition?

Why are you thinking in terms of books? Pagan lore and rituals have survived in families.

[Pyramidologist]

Like a Pict? A member of nation that has been extinct for a 1000 years? There are many forms of dress-up and role-play, not just one. :rolleyes:

The majority of modern ethnic-British descend from the Picts. I use the term to reflect the aboriginal very short-statured Iberian phenotype, which was widespread over the entire British Isles.

[Aemma]

I find it interesting that your username is Kernunnos, yet you are not pagan. :) It must be a World of Warcraft thing; it's still a tad misleading however. ;) At any rate, I enjoyed reading your post even if I am one of these pagans. A few notes however:


Do you really think that a political will could establish a religion? To establish a new religion takes at least two important things, an epic and philosophy. Nothing that could be improvised or even carefully be built in the most sophisticated political lab.

Political will, an epic, a philosophy? Trust me this is in the works in some circles. It isn't something that I can truly support, this tendency in some circles to want to institutionalise a newly-developing spirituality, but alas it has become the realm of young men intent on building a Religion and foresaking a Spirituality.


Also, paganism was destroyed forever in Europe, modern paganism is just a vague reference to a totally lost set of idea and rituals that are impossible to reconstruct and reapply, as they were orally transmitted and went lost forever with christianization.

Destroyed? No not wholly. There are vestiges of material culture in the form of lore/mythology, religious art, artifacts and so forth that render it *not* lost to us as a matter of fact.


last but not least paganism is most often a by product of freemasonic drifts and currents, so it serves just anti-christian purposes and gnostic tenets.

In the end, as freemasonry is the most strong force behind multiracialism and alien invasion, becoming pagans would serve only anti-european purposes.

You apparently know very little about the movement of pagan revivalism, especially those of the ethno-cultural or folk spiritualities. You should perhaps inform yourself a bit more on these and their various manifestations before you start lumping us as freemasons. We're entirely different animals. :)


There is instead a good alternative to modern Christianity, it is called catholic traditionalism. For a traditional, pre Vatican II faithful, the principle of nation is a sacred one: a christian has a duty to serve firstly the interests of his family, then of its nations and only lastly, if he can, the interests of other races and nations.

Traditional catholics are growing slowly, even if their major drawback, a series of archaic prohibitions regarding even normal, heterosexual sexuality are keeping many christians from joining them.

Catholicism is Catholicism is Catholicism. A few modern-day tweaks here or there do not a new religion make.


Possibly the creation of orthodox national churches in western nations could be another solutions. Orthodox are less rigid in terms of sexuality, for example a single divorce is admitted under orthodoxy and priests can marry, a rule that existed until the eleven century under the catholic church.

As for myself I see no contradictions in being christian and a nationalist.I do not forget priests blessing the armies of Mussolini, franco, Salazar: I just refrain from adopting the marxist interpretation of the Gospel that is used by the majority of modern catholics.

Pray, tell me, what is this marxist interpretation of which you speak? Liberation Theology by any chance? Or are you referring to something else which the majority of modern Catholics seem to be espousing according to you?

[Albion]

Well you wouldn't would you? You've posted what you look like, in your spare time you dress up in batman or goth capes, corpse paint etc. You aren't normal... people clicking on this forum expect to see a good representation of ethnic-Europeans - fit physically and mentally and moral. Instead they end up seeing immoral BDSMer's and goth/''witch'' type wierdo's.

:coffee:

Yeah, I agree...


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40542

:icon_ask:

[Pallantides]

Well you wouldn't would you? You've posted what you look like, in your spare time you dress up in batman or goth capes, corpse paint etc. You aren't normal... people clicking on this forum expect to see a good representation of ethnic-Europeans - fit physically and mentally and moral. Instead they end up seeing immoral BDSMer's and goth/''witch'' type wierdo's.

:coffee:

Lol, how did I miss this post:D

[Teyrn]

Lol, how did I miss this post:D

Probably because Pyramidologist made many, many other funny comments.

[Onur]

This subject could only be an issue in a predominantly muslim country like Turkey.

Only 3-5% of whole Europe are muslims and probably only 1% are local people but the rest are immigrants. So you better discuss if paganism is your only hope against christianity because it`s the christians who eradicated paganism from Europe and 90% of Europe are christians.

This is as absurd as me creating a discussion like "Is shamanism is our only hope against christianity in Turkey" in a Turkish forum.

[Lumi]

Islam threatens all of us, though. There's a big chance that it'll find it's way into our country, and our only hope is to adopt a religion that won't stand for it.

[Malta1066Falzon]

Hail Odin.

[Teyrn]

Hail Odin.

*Turns on sarcasm detector*

[Malta1066Falzon]

*Turns on sarcasm detector*

Wasn't sarcastic at all.

Hail Odin. o/

[Albion]

Islam threatens all of us, though. There's a big chance that it'll find it's way into our country, and our only hope is to adopt a religion that won't stand for it.

I'm stuck between two thoughts on the issue:


Christainity is much bigger (if subdivided) and has long been Europe's religion. It is embedded into the cultures and architecture. However it is still a Semitic relgion and even Muslims recognise us as "people of the book" - basically their neighbours who never got the "complete" religion in their view.
Pagan faiths have the attraction of being the ones of our ancient ancestors, however Christianity was the one of our immediate ancestors. Having studied Norse legends a bit I was struck by how "down to earth" the deities seem to have been, it is quite facisniating when you can relate to them - they're not distant like the Christian god. Another interesting thing was the conflict between the giants and gods, the giants almost appear to be a foreign people and the events described often could be exaggerations of real events, but that's a different matter... My main fault with pagan religions is that they're very artificial today and would divide us even more and lack the relative unity imposed by Christianity. Also, in the grand scheme of things they are too small to really matter and won't draw in many people so aren't much help.


So whilst I admire the pagan faiths, I see Christianity as our moral guide.

[Flintlocke]

There's different paganisms. Which one do you think will save yurop from islaaaaaam?

[cmd_]

You're funny, OP.

Islam is just a religion. A religion cannot harm anything. However, those who preaches a religion can harm. If you mean Mongoloid and Negroid Muslims, then yes. They are a harm to the European Caucasoid gene pool. You can easily stop them and others from coming to Europe in mass numbers, but the problem does not lie there. It is the Jew who promotes multiculturalism, massive immigration and more. They are the real threat. And if you stop the eternal Jew, you will eventually save Europe.

Are you honestly that dumb to understand? They are not really invading anything. It is your corrupted politicians who bring them to Europe.

I don't need to prove anything. The truth lies out there, you just have to find it. With open mindedness and a bit common sense.

[Malta1066Falzon]

EU's opinion about multiculturalism: "It was a terrible idea but we just realized now"........*whispers* "MORE BOATS FROM NORTH AFRICA?BRING THEM IN! :D".

[Pallantides]

Hail Bes!
http://www.whipper-snapper.com/pygmies/images/crane.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Bes_y_Beset.jpg

Our only hope against Islam!

[Teyrn]

Wasn't sarcastic at all.

HEil Odin. o/

http://static.bbc.co.uk/history/img/ic/640/images/resources/people/adolf_hitler.jpg

Fixed.

[Wulfhere]

You're funny, OP.

Islam is just a religion. A religion cannot harm anything. However, those who preaches a religion can harm. If you mean Mongoloid and Negroid Muslims, then yes. They are a harm to the European Caucasoid gene pool. You can easily stop them and others from coming to Europe in mass numbers, but the problem does not lie there. It is the Jew who promotes multiculturalism, massive immigration and more. They are the real threat. And if you stop the eternal Jew, you will eventually save Europe.

Are you honestly that dumb to understand? They are not really invading anything. It is your corrupted politicians who bring them to Europe.

I don't need to prove anything. The truth lies out there, you just have to find it. With open mindedness and a bit common sense.

Yawn.

[Malta1066Falzon]

http://static.bbc.co.uk/history/img/ic/640/images/resources/people/adolf_hitler.jpg

Fixed.

yes yes, Heil Mein Fuhrer.

[cmd_]

Yawn.Keep yawning. And enjoy getting your people raped by them wogs. Once you actually understand how the western politics work, then will you understand.

For now, you're probably just a delusional EDL supporter. Who's [EDL] not intended to stop the immigration from 3rd world countries, or immigration at all, but to confuse you people from the reality.

I thought Celts were smart people. Please prove me wrong.

[Sultan Suleiman]

Yawn.


The diabolical plot of the Islamic hive mind will be thwarted if you just lower the immigrants/per year, concentrate your migrant "fishing" in eastern Europe, deport convicted criminals and raise your birthrate by just few 0.X points :)



But then judging by mentality of you Anglos, you would be whining about Slavenization of your nation the second Polacks/Ukes passed the quota of "accepted minority" :(

[Wulfhere]

Keep yawning. And enjoy getting your people raped by them wogs. Once you actually understand how the western politics work, then will you understand.

For now, you're probably just a delusional EDL supporter. Who's [EDL] not intended to stop the immigration from 3rd world countries, or immigration at all, but to confuse you people from the reality.

I thought Celts were smart people. Please prove me wrong.

I'm not an EDL supporter and nor am I a Celt.

The greatest threat to our civilisation, ever since the 7th century, has been Islam.

[Wulfhere]

The diabolical plot of the Islamic hive mind will be thwarted if you just lower the immigrants/per year, concentrate your migrant "fishing" in eastern Europe, deport convicted criminals and raise your birthrate by just few 0.X points :)



But then judging by mentality of you Anglos, you would be whining about Slavenization of your nation the second Polacks/Ukes passed the quota of "accepted minority" :(

We also have to boot out the millions already here, forming an ever-expanding breeding population.

[cmd_]

I'm not an EDL supporter and nor am I a Celt.

The greatest threat to our civilisation, ever since the 7th century, has been Islam.I tell you yet again, a religion cannot harm anyone but the ones who practice them.

Muslims did however invade before, such as the Ottoman Empire. But muslims are not invading anyone now by war or force. They rather get here because of your corrupted politicians. Do you honestly believe the Pakistan people (for example) come to U.K. just like that, by themselves? No, it is yet again your politicians who let them in. And in this case, it is the Jew, together with his Goy's, who have massive influence in the politics, media and financial. They promote massive immigration.

Since you're from the U.K, why don't you read about the Rothschild family? That's a very good start for you.

[Wulfhere]

I tell you yet again, a religion cannot harm anyone but the ones who practice them.

Muslims did however invade before, such as the Ottoman Empire. But muslims are not invading anyone now by war or force. They rather get here because of your corrupted politicians. Do you honestly believe the Pakistan people (for example) come to U.K. just like that, by themselves? No, it is yet again your politicians who let them in. And in this case, it is the Jew, together with his Goy's, who have massive influence in the politics, media and financial. They promote massive immigration.

Since you're from the U.K, why don't you read about the Rothschild family? That's a very good start for you.

An evil ideology corrupts minds. The distinction you're trying to make between a religion and its followers is an artificial one.

I know full well that our corrupt politicians have betrayed us. I also know that the vast majority of them are not Jewish. Jews, in fact, tend to be victims of Muslim violence.

[Curtis24]

Why do we even need a belief system? CAn't we just logically respond to changing circumstances?

[PetiteParisienne]

I tell you yet again, a religion cannot harm anyone but the ones who practice them.

Muslims did however invade before, such as the Ottoman Empire. But muslims are not invading anyone now by war or force. They rather get here because of your corrupted politicians. Do you honestly believe the Pakistan people (for example) come to U.K. just like that, by themselves? No, it is yet again your politicians who let them in. And in this case, it is the Jew, together with his Goy's, who have massive influence in the politics, media and financial. They promote massive immigration.

Since you're from the U.K, why don't you read about the Rothschild family? That's a very good start for you.

I'd argue that a massive portion of Muslims in Britain, if not the majority, are asylum-seekers, members of Commonwealth countries, and/or their descendants and extended family. The UK government has made it way too easy for these people to get passports, whether viewing them as cheap labour or as somehow having a 'right' to British residency/citizenship.

[cmd_]

An evil ideology corrupts minds. The distinction you're trying to make between a religion and its followers is an artificial one.

I know full well that our corrupt politicians have betrayed us. I also know that the vast majority of them are not Jewish. Jews, in fact, tend to be victims of Muslim violence.Really? I did not know a book holds such great power to corrupt minds by itself. It is the people who reads, that becomes corrupted. Not the other way around.

Vast majority, eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_Jews#Business_and_the_professions
How Zionists Divide and Conquer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJjSzXkm55o)

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-uk.html


The Jews Who Control Media in the UK (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-uk-media.html)
75 Years of Mideast Bloodshed at UK's Door (http://www.worldahead.org/articles/w9611f5.htm)
Benjamin Disraeli, Prime Minister, 1874-1880, & English Statesman, 1837-1880 (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-uk.html#anchor164487)
Biography of Benjamin Disraeli, U.K.'s Jewish Prime Minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disraeli)
Jews Who Deal With UK Royalty (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-uk-british-royalty.htm)
Rothschilds - Banking & Zionism Conspiracies (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-rothschild.html)
Jewish History Society of England Publications (http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~jhse/otherben.htm)
The Jews in Britain, 1656-2006 (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-uk-history-of-jews-in-britain.htm)




I'd argue that a massive portion of Muslims in Britain, if not the majority, are asylum-seekers, members of Commonwealth countries, and/or their descendants and extended family. The UK government has made it way too easy for these people to get passports, whether viewing them as cheap labour or as somehow having a 'right' to British residency/citizenship.Yes. Simply because your politicians let them to.

[Wulfhere]

Really? I did not know a book holds such great power to corrupt minds by itself. It is the people who reads, that becomes corrupted. Not the other way around.

Vast majority, eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_Jews#Business_and_the_professions
How Zionists Divide and Conquer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJjSzXkm55o)

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-uk.html


The Jews Who Control Media in the UK (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-uk-media.html)
75 Years of Mideast Bloodshed at UK's Door (http://www.worldahead.org/articles/w9611f5.htm)
Benjamin Disraeli, Prime Minister, 1874-1880, & English Statesman, 1837-1880 (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-uk.html#anchor164487)
Biography of Benjamin Disraeli, U.K.'s Jewish Prime Minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disraeli)
Jews Who Deal With UK Royalty (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-uk-british-royalty.htm)
Rothschilds - Banking & Zionism Conspiracies (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-rothschild.html)
Jewish History Society of England Publications (http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~jhse/otherben.htm)
The Jews in Britain, 1656-2006 (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-uk-history-of-jews-in-britain.htm)



Yes. Simply because your politicians let them to.

Disraeli was a Jew, yes (though one whose family had converted to Christianity). But there have been 75 prime ministers of the UK, and none of the others were Jewish. The same sort of distribution occurs in other fields. The Rothschilds are Jews, but most banking families aren't.

[cmd_]

Disraeli was a Jew, yes (though one whose family had converted to Christianity). But there have been 75 prime ministers of the UK, and none of the others were Jewish. The same sort of distribution occurs in other fields. The Rothschilds are Jews, but most banking families aren't.
Prime ministers or presidents don't need to be Jews because they simply have no power anyway. They are just being manipulated by others. Like Obama, in reality he has no power. He's just saying what others tell him to say.

[PetiteParisienne]

Really? I did not know a book holds such great power to corrupt minds by itself. It is the people who reads, that becomes corrupted. Not the other way around.


There is absolutely a disproportionate amount of Muslims who become radicalised when compared to members of other faiths.

[cmd_]

There is absolutely a disproportionate amount of Muslims who become radicalised when compared to members of other faiths.Of course. I'm not denying this fact. But they have no political power whatsoever in the west.

[Wulfhere]

Prime ministers or presidents don't need to be Jews because they simply have no power anyway. They are just being manipulated by others. Like Obama, in reality he has no power. He's just saying what others tell him to say.

As a Turk and therefore a Muslim you'll do anything to take the blame away from Islam. You disgust me.

[Wulfhere]

Of course. I'm not denying this fact. But they have no political power whatsoever in the west.

They don't need it, they just kill anyway.

[PetiteParisienne]

Of course. I'm not denying this fact. But they have no political power whatsoever in the west.

They have the power to influence politics because the Liberal left has become infatuated with Islam; particularly British university students.

[cmd_]

As a Turk and therefore a Muslim you'll do anything to take the blame away from Islam. You disgust me.


I'm far away from being Muslim. Neither of my parents were practicing Islam. Besides, I have always been against Anatolian Turkish immigration to Europe and other parts of this planet. I have said to many of them to actually leave Europe. Same with other people that do not belong in Europe.And if so, I wouldn't admit that most religious fanatics are Muslims.


They have the power to influence politics because the Liberal left has become infatuated with Islam; particularly British university students.Sorry, but that's utter nonsense. They do not have any power whatsoever in politics, the media or financial.

[Sultan Suleiman]

I'm not an EDL supporter and nor am I a Celt.

The greatest threat to our civilization, ever since the 7th century, has been Islam.


Riiiiiiight...

[Wulfhere]

And if so, I wouldn't admit that most religious fanatics are Muslims.

You're a Turk, which is one of the races that have been brainwashed and bred into Islam for many centuries. You could become one any day.

[Wulfhere]

Riiiiiiight...

Muslims have been invading Western civilisation since the 7th century.

[cmd_]

You're a Turk, which is one of the races that have been brainwashed and bred into Islam for many centuries. You could become one any day.You yet again prove your lack of intelligence. Have you ever considered buying glasses? I think this might be the right time before you damage your brain even further more.

Read again what I wrote earlier.

[PetiteParisienne]

Sorry, but that's utter nonsense. They do not have any power whatsoever in politics, the media or financial.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I've seen too many of my Liberal acquaintances cast votes in favour if politicians who promote the Muslim agenda. I agree that Islam doesn't have much hold over the financial world or the media directly.

[Wulfhere]

You yet again prove your lack of intelligence. Have you ever considered buying glasses? I think this might be the right time before you damage your brain even further more.

Read again what I wrote earlier.

I read it. But I also know that many so-called secularised Muslims, who don't practice, become radicalised.

[Sultan Suleiman]

We also have to boot out the millions already here, forming an ever-expanding breeding population.


Most of that population will integrate when you implement those policies I just mentioned few posts up (because with the lack of immigrant from "the Old country" every single culture/religion in history either assimilates or adapts to the surroundings).


And if you are scared of Brits "loosing their whiteness" trough interbreeding you just need to pick up few Science magazines and read about gene inhibitor/removal technologies which will be available to public in a decade or so.
They can be used to remove "faulty" genes for both medical and cosmetic purposes.

[Wulfhere]

Most of that population will integrate when you implement those policies I just mentioned few posts up (because with the lack of immigrant from "the Old country" every single culture/religion in history either assimilates or adapts to the surroundings).


And if you are scared of Brits "loosing their whiteness" trough interbreeding you just need to pick up few Science magazines and read about gene inhibitor/removal technologies which will be available to public in a decade or so.
They can be used to remove "faulty" genes for both medical and cosmetic purposes.

We don't want your stinking Islam in Europe at all. It doesn't belong here.

[Sultan Suleiman]

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I've seen too many of my Liberal acquaintances cast votes in favour if politicians who promote the Muslim agenda. I agree that Islam doesn't have much hold over the financial world or the media directly.


Liberals tend to fight for the cause of the underdog... Nothing strange there :coffee:

[Albion]

Being warned about Jews by Muslims... oh the irony. :D Most people would say we need to watch out for both of them...

[Sultan Suleiman]

We don't want your stinking Islam in Europe at all. It doesn't belong here.

Neither do many other things belong in Europe, yet I don't see that changing mate.

[cmd_]

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I've seen too many of my Liberal acquaintances cast votes in favour if politicians who promote the Muslim agenda. I agree that Islam doesn't have much hold over the financial world or the media directly.Look, I know that the Muslims (from Asia and Africa) are causing big problems in the U.K., the gene pool of Britain is also at stake. But believing a religion, a book(!), to have the power itself to destroy things is very ridiculous...

[Wulfhere]

Neither do many other things belong in Europe, yet I don't see that changing mate.

Either it will change, or our civilisation will be destroyed. That's the choice that we face.

[PetiteParisienne]

Look, I know that the Muslims (from Asia and Africa) are causing big problems in the U.K., the gene pool of Britain is also at stake. But believing a religion, a book(!), to have the power itself to destroy things is very ridiculous...

The book is the source of the corrupt ideologies. No one is suggesting that an inanimate object in and of itself is any sort of threat.

[Wulfhere]

Look, I know that the Muslims (from Asia and Africa) are causing big problems in the U.K., the gene pool of Britain is also at stake. But believing a religion, a book(!), to have the power itself to destroy things is very ridiculous...

A book is written by people. It's a way of influencing other people.

[cmd_]

The book is the source of the corrupt ideologies. No one is suggesting that an inanimate object in and of itself is any sort of threat.Yes, you are right about that, but let us not forget it is those who act evil deeds, that are responsible. I'm personally no fan of Semitic beliefs.

[Wulfhere]

Yes, you are right about that, but let us not forget it is those who act evil deeds, that are responsible. I'm personally no fan of Semitic beliefs.

Those who do the deeds, and those who tell them to do the deeds, are equally responsible.

[Sultan Suleiman]

Either it will change, or our civilisation will be destroyed. That's the choice that we face.


You are quite melodramatic with your "Hold the line crap" but... The same words were spoken by Brits against French, Germans and communism. Don't you see a pattern here?


You are making raging stampede of elephants out of confused mice.

[cmd_]

Those who do the deeds, and those who tell them to do the deeds, are equally responsible.Wow! You have just proven yourself to be as "clever" as a Somali. Good night, sir.

[Wulfhere]

You are quite melodramatic with your "Hold the line crap" but... The same words were spoken by Brits against French, Germans and communism. Don't you see a pattern here?


You are making raging stampede of elephants out of confused mice.

Words such as those are often spoken when under threat.

[Sultan Suleiman]

Words such as those are often spoken when under threat.


But if petty crime and occasional act of terror done by disorganized bunch of failures constitutes a threat like Nazi Germany then you do honor to your ancestors...

[Wulfhere]

But if petty crime and occasional act of terror done by disorganized bunch of failures constitutes a threat like Nazi Germany then you do honor to your ancestors...

The Muslim threat is demographic, and for this reason is far more insidious. They take over areas simply by breeding.

[Supreme American]

For the record, Islamic law proscribes different treatment for "People of the Book" (Christians and Jews) than they go Pagans.

They're allowed to slaughter Pagans. Just sayin'.

[Wulfhere]

For the record, Islamic law proscribes different treatment for "People of the Book" (Christians and Jews) than they go Pagans.

They're allowed to slaughter Pagans. Just sayin'.

Which means no compromise can be possible. Christians are falling over themselves to accept dhimmitude, but no Pagan could ever do this.

[Sultan Suleiman]

The Muslim threat is demographic, and for this reason is far more insidious. They take over areas simply by breeding.


Mate did you bother to read the post with my suggested policy?

[Wulfhere]

Mate did you bother to read the post with my suggested policy?

No, which one was that?

[Sultan Suleiman]

No, which one was that?


I honestly hope that was sarcasm...

[PetiteParisienne]

For the record, Islamic law proscribes different treatment for "People of the Book" (Christians and Jews) than they go Pagans.

They're allowed to slaughter Pagans. Just sayin'.

Islam also allows the murder of Jews, including specific ways to do so.

[Sultan Suleiman]

Islam also allows the murder of Jews, including specific ways to do so.

Please post JUST Quranic sources please :coffee:

[Wulfhere]

Islam also allows the murder of Jews, including specific ways to do so.

It even mandates the murder of Jews and Pagans.

[Wulfhere]

Please post JUST Quranic sources please :coffee:

Haditha are just as valid, since they form the basis of Sharia law.

[Sultan Suleiman]

Haditha are just as valid, since they form the basis of Sharia law.

Hadith crap came 300 years after the Prophet passed away. Even Bukhari said that he can only guaranty the "legitimacy" only of few dozen and if you think that 1,5 MILLION of Hadiths are all well preserved "religious canon" then you are walking down the wrong way of the Sanity Avenue.



I am asking only Quranic verses (ie. original and only Holy texts in Islam) and not "what Muhamed might have said" :coffee:

[Hurrem sultana]

Islam also allows the murder of Jews, including specific ways to do so.


This is a lie,no where in the Koran you will find your proof for this.The jews christians,and sabeans are considered "the people of the book"


A hadith says if a muslim man is married to a woman that belong to one of those religions he has to make sure she can practice her faith,if it is needed...he has to make sure she is able to go to church every Sunday

this is just one example of how islam supports slaughtering of the people of the book

[PetiteParisienne]

Please post JUST Quranic sources please :coffee:

Here are some friendly ones for you:

"Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews.... And of their taking usury ... and of their devouring people's wealth by false pretenses. We have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful doom."[Surah IV, v. 160, 161]

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

“Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.” 8:12

"Let not the unbelievers think they will ever get away. They have not
the power to do so. Muster against them all the men and cavalry at
your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of Allah
and your enemy... Prophet, (Muhammed) rouse the faithful to arms!
If they (the non-Muslims) incline to peace (accept Islam) make
peace with them." - Sura 8:59

“Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.” 2:19

“Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them.” 47:4

[Laudanum]

http://static.bbc.co.uk/history/img/ic/640/images/resources/people/adolf_hitler.jpg

Fixed.

It's not as if writing ''Hail'' as ''Heil'' makes you a nazi...:confused:

[PetiteParisienne]

Anyway, I think we should get back to talking about Paganism. :)

[Wulfhere]

Hadith crap came 300 years after the Prophet passed away. Even Bukhari said that he can only guaranty the "legitimacy" only of few dozen and if you think that 1,5 MILLION of Hadiths are all well preserved "religious canon" then you are walking down the wrong way of the Sanity Avenue.



I am asking only Quranic verses (ie. original and only Holy texts in Islam) and not "what Muhamed might have said" :coffee:

Haditha are part of Islam and its law no matter how much you try and deny it or to change the goalposts. Typical Muslim tactic, lie and dissemble.

[Sultan Suleiman]

Here are some friendly ones for you:

"Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews.... And of their taking usury ... and of their devouring people's wealth by false pretenses. We have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful doom."[Surah IV, v. 160, 161]

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

“Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.” 8:12

"Let not the unbelievers think they will ever get away. They have not
the power to do so. Muster against them all the men and cavalry at
your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of Allah
and your enemy... Prophet, (Muhammed) rouse the faithful to arms!
If they (the non-Muslims) incline to peace (accept Islam) make
peace with them." - Sura 8:59

“Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.” 2:19

“Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them.” 47:4


Did some mighty fine copy pasting from Jihadwatch.org or likes of it. I will respond to these more "aggressive" Surahs tomorrow, right now I am just to tired and wasted for a bit more serious theological debate.

And you might wanna double check the bolded Surah mate ;)

[Sultan Suleiman]

Haditha are part of Islam and its law no matter how much you try and deny it or to change the goalposts. Typical Muslim tactic, lie and dissemble.


Son check when and how and by whom (in patronship of which lord) were "Hadith" collections completed.


And by that logic how did Islam survive for 400 years without use of Hadiths?

[Hurrem sultana]

surahs posted out of contexts,or translated in a wrong way(it is too late though to check every one of them)..yet even in those you don't find any calls for slaughtering,you cant claim something and then ignore to prove it

[Laudanum]

People moan too much. The bible is full of violence as well. It isn't about the books themselves, it's about the people who read them. There will always be retards who think they should literally do the stuff they read, regardless what religion or political ideology they support.

[Sultan Suleiman]

surahs posted out of contexts,or translated in a wrong way(it is too late though to check every one of them)..yet even in those you don't find any calls for slaughtering,you cant claim something and then ignore to prove it



Ljepoto smiri se. I've got this covered ;)

[Hurrem sultana]

Ljepoto smiri se. I've got this covered ;)

hahaha..cekamo:D

[Sultan Suleiman]

hahaha..cekamo:D

Morat ćeš se još malo načekat, mratav sam umoran :yawnee20:

Ajd laku noć.

[Wulfhere]

Son check when and how and by whom (in patronship of which lord) were "Hadith" collections completed.


And by that logic how did Islam survive for 400 years without use of Hadiths?

The Hadiths are now an essential and integral part of Islam, and the fact that they're just made up bullshit is irrelevant, because the Koran is too.

[Sultan Suleiman]

The Hadiths are now an essential and integral part of Islam, and the fact that they're just made up bullshit is irrelevant, because the Koran is too.

Why does everything boil down to cheap insults and mongoloid one liners with you Anglos?

[Wulfhere]

Why does everything boil down to cheap insults and mongoloid one liners with you Anglos?

Do you find it offensive that I insult the Koran? How about if I point out that Muhammad was a paedophile schizophrenic madman?

[Sultan Suleiman]

Do you find it offensive that I insult the Koran? How about if I point out that Muhammad was a paedophile schizophrenic madman?


Apply post above mate :coffee:

[Wulfhere]

Apply post above mate :coffee:

Muhammad, his insane rantings in the Koran, the insane rantings of his followers in the Hadith, and all his insane brainwashed followers today, can just all fuck off out of our lands as far as I'm concerned. Their very presence here is poluting our sacred earth with their vile, hate-fuelled filth. They are the very enemy of human progress and civilisation, dragging us all back to the dark ages and spewing their disease on our streets and into our homes.

[Hurrem sultana]

Muhammad, his insane rantings in the Koran, the insane rantings of his followers in the Hadith, and all his insane brainwashed followers today, can just all fuck off out of our lands as far as I'm concerned. Their very presence here is poluting our sacred earth with their vile, hate-fuelled filth. They are the very enemy of human progress and civilisation, dragging us all back to the dark ages and spewing their disease on our streets and into our homes.

take a breath and relax

[Flintlocke]

Again this is too vague. By saying paganism is our only hope against islaaaam it means different things to different people. Some may imagine themselves with a battle axe and a wooden shield fighting off hordes of brown invaders while others think it's living in small communities and doing ceremonies for their gods while snubbing the rest of society in hope they might avoid the dysgenic trends that now exist. Well the brown sludge don't care one bit about your bullshit, they are known to stab, shoot, behead people and don't think twice about it.

If you want to go pagan you have to change your ethos first and foremost. It's not about your gods and "being in peace with your community and nature". It's about might makes right. About understanding the divine nature of both creation and destruction. You should feel no guilt for killing your enemies who threaten you. You must believe in revenge, and in war. Even in war as a preemptive measure as Ol'Bushy said. The old pagan world wasn't only about worshiping nature although that existed but only as part of a man's relation with the world around him. The Romans, Germans, Celts, Greeks, they were always at war and didn't see anything wrong with it, it was a way for them to achieve more power.

So if you're willing to give those bastards an offer they can't refuse and not feel guilty about it, you're a pagan. If you go with every life is sacred and those hippy christianisms you're not really a pagan just a different type of hippy.

[Anarch]

No, Paganism isn't the answer. For one, we're past the age where we can concoct new gods. Two, if religion is the answer, it's in Christianity - though I can't see the Pope growing a pair and calling us to the Cross again. No, the answer is in nationalism.

[Cato]

Borrowing and modifying a bit from Jeremiah, KJV of course. :cool:

Thus saith the Lord, learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

[Wulfhere]

Borrowing and modifying a bit from Jeremiah, KJV of course. :cool:

Thus saith the Lord, learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

Actually, the Heathen are not dismayed at the signs of heaven. Christians often are though, given their antipathy to astrology, for example.

[Xenomorph]

No. However cool the idea is, Thor and Hercules aren't gonna ride to the rescue.

Values are eternal (or they can be if people keep renewing them), but barring a major change in the world (e.g. nuclear war that kills over half the human population), I don't see the old religions that have gone unpracticed for over a millenium coming back. And to be honest, I wouldn't want that to happen. One of the things that made Europe so powerful was its embrace of rationality and science from the seventeenth century on. I'm not saying that religion doesn't have a place in society, but problems need to be tackled with solutions that address concrete problems, not trying to retrieve some ancient faiths from centuries.

[Cato]

Actually, the Heathen are not dismayed at the signs of heaven. Christians often are though, given their antipathy to astrology, for example.

I think it was referring to the ancient practice of stargazing and the scorn Yahweh had for astrologers, sorcerers, and the like.

[Onur]

The Hadiths are now an essential and integral part of Islam, and the fact that they're just made up bullshit is irrelevant, because the Koran is too.
The so-called Hadiths [99% are fake] are as much part of islam as the book called "Malleus Maleficarum" for christianity, not more than that.

A christian doctrine which leaded to millions of people burned alive all over Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleus_Maleficarum

[Wulfhere]

The so-called Hadiths [99% are fake] are as much part of islam as the book called "Malleus Maleficarum" for christianity, not more than that.

A christian doctrine which leaded to millions of people burned alive all over Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleus_Maleficarum

No, you lie. The Hadith are extremely important in Islam.

[Osweo]

No, you lie. The Hadith are extremely important in Islam.

Gotta hand it to Mohammad. He WAS a crafty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya)son of a bitch! :D

[Incal]

I think growing some balls and some common sense will be your only hope against Islam euros: Cancel any kind of working or resident visas, close borders to refugees, stop that family reunification madness and deport in situ any immigrant who commit any kind of crime. Problem solved.

[The Ripper]

Europe is not being threatened by Islam. Europeans are facing a demographic disaster. Islam is largely irrelevant.

[Altay]

You're a Turk
Correction; cmd is no Turk according to his own words:


"Turkey" belongs to Greece. The word "Turk" is a unnecessary word.

Sorry for OT, please go on.

[Cato]

Europe is not being threatened by Islam. Europeans are facing a demographic disaster. Islam is largely irrelevant.

The same sort of demographic disaster that Japan is also facing, I believe; Japanese families typically number more than 1 or 2 children in some articles that I've read.

[Brynhild]

Call me a hypocrite, but I believe this was perfectly acceptable. Maybe not the public witch burnings, but these people needed to be stopped. Don't be naive, you should know the potential dangers of magick if you are interested in such a thing.

And this, coming from a 20-something year old fundamentalist christian, patronising me - a magical (I'm no Crowleyite!) practitioner of nearly 30 years standing. I can only laugh!

[poodletroglodyte]

Our only hope is Pastafarianism!

[Lithium]

I like the rising amounts for Pagans and it's reviving but I don't see how our religion will help against Islam. Muslims should be brought back to Asia and Africa throught non-violent politics.

[Minesweeper]

Christianity fought holy wars against Islam and stopped the Islamic advance in Europe, twice!
European paganism never actually encountered Islamic forces on larger scale.

So the answer is, no.