Your thoughts on the Ottoman Empire?

[Joe McCarthy]

I just finished Suraiya Faroqhi's The Ottoman Empire: a short history. I imagine most everyone has a negative view of the Ottomans, but I'm curious what any of you may think of them in terms of military technology, art, statecraft, administration, economics, etc., as well as any other general-historical assessments.

https://files.pbworks.com/download/mhuH1Pr8Uj/ww1history/29809975/ottoman_empire.jpg

http://www.turkeyforholidays.com/images/Mehmet.II.commanding.the.ships.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ehdPHohyzg4/SweIT2UFPtI/AAAAAAAAAhE/0vxEBASkmYw/s1600/Gate+of+Felicity.jpg

http://www.transanatolie.com/Nederlands/Turkije/map_of_ottoman_empire_1885.gif

http://images.wikia.com/genealogy/images/7/7c/Ottoman-Empire-Public-Demo.png

[Loddfafner]

Just about every part of the former empire from Libya to the Balkans to the Caucasus to Mesopotamia to Palestine are much messier than necessary. I suspect that the expectations people in ex-Ottoman provinces have of their states can be attributed to Ottoman administrative practices.

[Bard]

I suppose that the ottomans achieved a certain level of excellency in all the fields you mentioned.
Just an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary

[Joe McCarthy]

I suppose that the ottomans achieved a certain level of excellency in all the fields you mentioned.
Just an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary

Yes, their military acumen is generally what carried them, even against more culturally advanced opponents. Many of the janissaries though were taken from Christians. Suleiman the Magnificent put a lot of Serbs into his corps because he regarded them as durable and strong.

[The Lawspeaker]

Very negative of course despite the fact that the Ottomans did support us (for pragmatic reasons) in our fight for independence. They hated the Spanish and we hated them.. so.

But my overall feelings for them is of course very negative: A non-European empire with a religion that is not just alien but also incredibly hostile to us.

No self-respecting person could respect such an empire.

[Pallantides]

They were allies of Sweden in the Great Northern Wars and thus our enemies at the time. Charles XII of Sweden was a great admirer of the Turks, he even spent some years in exile in Turkey, also one Swedish national dish 'Kåldolmar' is of Turkish origin.




Their music was pretty cool though
DoeEL4VQAs0
xY5WeCkVj00

[Kanasyuvigi]

Да им еба майката рязана турска, семето им да изсъхне, чумата да ги тръшне всички до един.
In the history of the Balkan Christian nations the Ottoman rule is an era of political, cultural and economical decline, demographical catastrophe and total genocide.
Just one single example. At 1400 (the time of the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans) the Bulgarian population was estimated to be around 3 million or almost the same as England.
600 years later, the British and their descendants in the USA, Canada, Australia... are more than 200 million. Bulgaria is less than 7 million, with 1 million of the population being Turks and Gypsies

[Joe McCarthy]

Arguably the Ottomans' greatest legacy, at least for Europe, was to insure it was not exposed to Western currents such as the Enlightenment, which means the Orthodox world grew even more alienated from the West than it already was. This means that things like capitalism and industrialism never took off there - which is probably seen as a good thing by various fringers.

[Svanhild]

Once foe, always foe. No sympathy, no respect.

[Марко Краљевић]

Positive opinion of Ottomans only surfaced among people who have never been enslaved by them. It was an islamic horde which used unifying position of sultan as caliph to unite muslims into conquests. In the middle ages when most other nations were fractured by feudal landlords, this ability created possibility of medieval version of blitzkrieg's concentrated assault.

Since Ottoman's main finance came from military conquests, without any other meaningful development of economy on the lands which it controlled, when those conquests seized the Ottoman's downfall was fast and unavoidable.

Balkan nations were in 14th, 15th century when they were conquered by the Ottomans, and they were still in 15th century, as well as their lands and economy, when they reinstated their independence in 19th century.

As for the apricity's resident imperialist comments aimed at Serbs as durable Ottoman soldiers, entire Janissary elite corps were from non muslims, preferable Balkan Christians, who were taken as children to Istanbul through "taxation in blood" and made into elite soldiers who would fight and die for sultan.

[Ushtari]

As for the apricity's resident imperialist comments aimed at Serbs as durable Ottoman soldiers, entire Janissary elite corps were from non muslims, preferable Balkan Christians, who were taken as children to Istanbul through "taxation in blood" and made into elite soldiers who would fight and die for sultan.
Ottoman please...

A known Grand vizier(second highest rank in the empire), is the Serb Mehmed-paša Sokolović. He had big influence in the ottoman empire, meaning the enemies of the ottomans must have been his enemies to, right?

Kosovo polje, 1389. The Serb Marko Kraljevic, allied with the Turks against Christians. Also, the battle of nicopolis, were the Serb Stefan Lazerovic with his forces were allied with the Sultan Beyazid, against catholics. Also, in the second battle of Kosovo(1448), skenderbeg moved to join the Hungarian coalition but they were intercepted and attacked by the Ottoman vassal Đurađ Branković of Serbia, and delayed from reaching the battlefield. Skanderbeg and his army ravaged Branković's land to punish Serbs for desertion of Christian cause.
http://books.google.com/books?id=0Sz2VYI0l1IC&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=ragusa+Kastriot+senate&source=bl&ots=4wXl3EbXqJ&sig=Hn5dVscwkT2FoXxG13hu7ldS0eY&hl=en&ei=gkL_TOvoB8aw8gPTz7mMCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=ragusa%20Kastriot%20senate&f=false

[Loddfafner]

Actually, there was considerable manufacturing throughout the Ottoman Empire, and historians have argued that the industrial revolution might have taken off based in Bursa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bursa) had Manchester not gotten there first.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The fall of Constantinople which paved the way for Ottoman rule of the Balkans. The shadow of Ottoman rule even continue to be pervasive today with Islamist Bosnians and Albanians who work everyday to undermine Christianity in the Balkans.

Before the Ottomans came we had three strong European states in the Balkans and that were the Serbian, Bulgarian and Byzantine empires (Byzantine Empire would have later become an ethnocentric state of the Greeks had it not fell). The Balkans was never fragmented as it is today and 99% of the fragmentation that exists today is the consequence of allowing the Ottomans to rule us for 500 years.

http://0.tqn.com/d/historymedren/1/0/C/9/eurse1354b.gif

An example of how nice and neat the Balkans used to be before it got all messed up by the Ottomans. Obviously most of Greece that were occupied by us should be handed back to the Byzantine Empire and Dalmatia to Serbia. And we've got a perfect non-fragmented Balkans but no, we don't have that today, thanks to the Ottomans.

The 500 years of Ottoman rule brought on a population growth decline of Balkan ethnics. The population total of the Greeks during the Byzantine period was about 5 million and today the population of Greece? Ten million. The population of Greeks in Europe grew by only five million over a period of 500 years. To compare, Turkey grew from 20 million in 1920 to 75 million today. Serbia's population during the medieval period was about 2 to 3 million and today we're at 7 million in the Balkans. We grew only 4 million over 500 years. Undoubtedly the Ottomans' rule was the primary cause for such slow growth.

We were also denied a lot of indigenous European cultural growth and replaced for a Central Asian, Turkish one. Natural evolutions of a European culture always occur over a period of a couple hundred years but no, we were suppressed for 500 years and thus retarded our cultural growth to an amalgamation of Ottoman and Serbian cultural growth instead with the Serbian portion severely crippled due to the repressive Islamic society that was the Ottoman Empire.

The Gypsy migration from India to Europe is also one of the boons of the Ottoman Empire. If it wasn't for the Ottomans, the Gypsies that now terrorize much of Southeastern Europe would not be even here today. Such migration of Indians was only a preview of what we see today in London, Paris and Berlin. If we want to see how such migration of a non-European people will look like after 500 years then look no further than the Balkans. Granted, the amount of non-Europeans that have migrated to Western Europe are much larger and have migrated more quickly than the Gypsies ever did but they do provide us with a good idea of what to expect.

All in all, the Ottoman Empire was very damaging to Europe, the Balkans specifically. Unfortunately, it is a damage that is largely irreversible today however we can always try to eliminate most of it by deporting Gypsies and Muslims to the hellhole that is Turkey.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Ottoman please...

A known Grand vizier(second highest rank in the empire), is the Serb Mehmed-paša Sokolović. He had big influence in the ottoman empire, meaning the enemies of the ottomans must have been his enemies to, right?

Kosovo polje, 1389. The Serb Marko Kraljevic, allied with the Turks against Christians. Also, the battle of nicopolis, were the Serb Stefan Lazerovic with his forces were allied with the Sultan Beyazid, against catholics. Also, in the second battle of Kosovo(1448), skenderbeg moved to join the Hungarian coalition but they were intercepted and attacked by the Ottoman vassal Đurađ Branković of Serbia, and delayed from reaching the battlefield. Skanderbeg and his army ravaged Branković's land to punish Serbs for desertion of Christian cause.
http://books.google.com/books?id=0Sz2VYI0l1IC&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=ragusa+Kastriot+senate&source=bl&ots=4wXl3EbXqJ&sig=Hn5dVscwkT2FoXxG13hu7ldS0eY&hl=en&ei=gkL_TOvoB8aw8gPTz7mMCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=ragusa%20Kastriot%20senate&f=false

Oh please... you're going to pick select traitors and then claim that as evidence that we are Turk lovers? At least today we are not even close to a Muslim state whereas 80% of Albania is Muslim, 99% of Kosovo Muslim and all of Albanians in FYROM are also Muslim. Now fuck off.

[Ushtari]

Serbian lies seem to have got to new levels, not that strange considering lying is a part of these neo-turks identity(see signature).




The fall of Constantinople which paved the way for Ottoman rule of the Balkans. The shadow of Ottoman rule even continue to be pervasive today with Islamist Bosnians and Albanians who work everyday to undermine Christianity in the Balkans.
The only kind of religious terrorism/radicalism that exists in todays Balkan is the Serbian Orhodox Christian one, whos clerics openly support genocide on non-serb and blessed their soldies/terrorists before they executed 8000 Bosnians in Srebenica, all in the name of Orthodox Christianism.


The Balkans was never fragmented as it is today and 99% of the fragmentation that exists today is the consequence of allowing the Ottomans to rule us for 500 years.
No, the fragmention that exist today in Balkan is due to Serbian terrorism.



We grew only 4 million over 500 years. Undoubtedly the Ottomans' rule was the primary cause for such slow growth.
Like in war times, Serbs have also showed themselfs to be incapable of reproducing themself. Serbia have one of the fastest declining population in europe, also given the fact that Serbia also have one of the oldest populations in the world where the majority of the Serb womens have reached infertile age. So they are doomed to be extinct, wich of course is a great thing for peace in the Balkans.



We were also denied a lot of indigenous European cultural growth and replaced for a Central Asian, Turkish one. Natural evolutions of a European culture always occur over a period of a couple hundred years but no, we were suppressed for 500 years and thus retarded our cultural growth to an amalgamation of Ottoman and Serbian cultural growth instead with the Serbian portion severely crippled due to the repressive Islamic society that was the Ottoman Empire.
The Orthodox church was shining during ottoman empire and orthodox people even had a own millet where they could preach their religion freely, unlike Catholics who where the main enemy of the ottoman empire.


The Gypsy migration from India to Europe is also one of the boons of the Ottoman Empire. If it wasn't for the Ottomans, the Gypsies that now terrorize much of Southeastern Europe would not be even here today. Such migration of Indians was only a preview of what we see today in London, Paris and Berlin. If we want to see how such migration of a non-European people will look like after 500 years then look no further than the Balkans. Granted, the amount of non-Europeans that have migrated to Western Europe are much larger and have migrated more quickly than the Gypsies ever did but they do provide us with a good idea of what to expect.
Gypsies, apart from Serbs have shown themself to be able to reproduce themself and do soon make up 10% of the sebian population. They will most probably be in majority in a near future, so what do you think we should name Serbia? i go for "Republika u Magjupsku i Srbiju".



All in all, the Ottoman Empire was very damaging to Europe and the Balkans specifically. Unfortunately, it is a damage that is largely irreversible today however we can always try to eliminate most of it by deporting Gypsies and Muslims to the hellhole that is Turkey.
Indeed, you Serbo-Turkish hybrids need to be expelled back to your homelands.

[The Lawspeaker]

The thing is, Ushtari, you are not even European. And the same goes for you, Joe. I am more inclined to believe the Serbs here because they are.

[Joe McCarthy]

Actually, there was considerable manufacturing throughout the Ottoman Empire, and historians have argued that the industrial revolution might have taken off based in Bursa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bursa) had Manchester not gotten there first. True, though interestingly enough this seemed to be least centered in the European portion of the empire, one would assume due to that region being such a source for their elite warrior class.

[Monolith]

A known Grand vizier(second highest rank in the empire), is the Serb Mehmed-paša Sokolović. He had big influence in the ottoman empire, meaning the enemies of the ottomans must have been his enemies to, right?
Yes. The Ottoman society was a mixture of worst imaginable tyranny and democracy, so virtually anyone could become a Grand vizier or even a sultan.

My opinion about the Ottoman empire is very negative, since they ruined the medieval Croatian kingdom; demographically, culturally, politically and economically. Also, constant warfare against them as well as several centuries of occupation of some Croatian regions produced a series of awful cultural traits (mostly mentality) that, rather sadly, linger among the Croats to this day.

[The Journeyman]

Under Ottoman rule, Serbs were not allowed to read, write, own property and even forbidden to use musical instruments. The Gusle player is so important to Serbs because the Guslar was the only one who carried on the cultural traditions and folklore of the Serbs. Many Guslars had their eyes taken out as a result of defying the laws.

So for a Serb to call someone a turk is like calling them a philistine/brute/ugly person all in one word.

[Monolith]

Obviously most of Greece that were occupied by us should be handed back to the Byzantine Empire and Dalmatia to Serbia.
Only in your wet dreams. What is now Dalmatia used to be Croatia in the strict sense, with the bulk of Croatian population living there. It was the seat of Croatian kings like three hundred years before medieval Serbian kingdom came into being. You would do well to at least partially educate yourself before posting such crap.

[Heretik]

Да им еба майката рязана турска, семето им да изсъхне, чумата да ги тръшне всички до един.

:rofl: :rofl:

Such a balkanoid curse! :hail: :thumbs up :thumbs up

[Heretik]

To be on topic:

As much as I dislike what Ottomans have done in these parts of Europe, one thing must be recognized, they had their organizational skills and logistics developed to the point of perfection thus enabling them to conquer vast territories of Europe, Middle East and Africa. Only in that way I have some sort of a respect towards them...
Preservationist should be aware that Turkey nowadays is arming themselves heavily, so, they may have some secret plans. ;)

[Ushtari]

Before the Ottomans came we had three strong European states in the Balkans and that were the Serbian, Bulgarian and Byzantine empires (Byzantine Empire would have later become an ethnocentric state of the Greeks had it not fell). The Balkans was never fragmented as it is today and 99% of the fragmentation that exists today is the consequence of allowing the Ottomans to rule us for 500 years.


An example of how nice and neat the Balkans used to be before it got all messed up by the Ottomans. Obviously most of Greece that were occupied by us should be handed back to the Byzantine Empire and Dalmatia to Serbia. And we've got a perfect non-fragmented Balkans but no, we don't have that today, thanks to the Ottomans.
Before Ottoman empire there was fights between Serbs and the Bulgarian empire and parts of byzantine empire. Stefan Nemanja conquered towns from Byzantin empire. So why do you claim it was peace and harmony? You do know that the Bulgarian empire conquered large parts of Balkan, do you call that harmony? Christians were already in fight with each other. And as i said earlier, the Orthodox church was shining during ottoman empire.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Before Ottoman empire there was fights between Serbs and the Bulgarian empire and parts of byzantine empire. Stefan Nemanja conquered towns from Byzantin empire. So why do you claim it was peace and harmony? You do know that the Bulgarian empire conquered large parts of Balkan, do you call that harmony? Christians were already in fight with each other. And as i said earlier, the Orthodox church was shining during ottoman empire.

Read my post again. When I said nice and neat I was talking about how fragmented the Balkans is today compared to the Balkans pre-Ottoman Empire. I find your praise of the Empire a bit... odd but perhaps not unusual among Shiptars who tend to praise their Muslim rulers and put down Christians.

[Daos]

The Ottomans were a plague! Corruption flourished under their influence (and is still going strong to this day), they further impoverished our lands via the tribute we had to pay to them, our rulers were changed frequently because of them (especially between 1711 and 1821, when the highest bidder would receive the throne), many men lost their lives in vain fighting against the endless horde and, if that wasn't enough, they also kidnapped and raped may of our women.

[Joe McCarthy]

http://www.kusadasi.tv/wp-content/uploads/ottoman-empire.jpg

[Hess]

The Ottoman empire is a plague in truest sense of the word, the bane and mortal enemy enemy of all things European.

Nothing has changed from the old times- to this day Turkey at our doorstep, colonizing countries like German with it's illiterate savage hordes and pushing to get into the EU.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

I admire Ottoman empire for the reasons many people have already said, but it's good it had to end. I really would not have liked to live under the Sultan. The republic era of Turkey is much better and I think the relative westernization is good. You have to keep with the times.

[Pallantides]

xY5WeCkVj00

[Damião de Góis]

I like them. Because of their blockage of the spice trade route, it forced us to reach India by sea, giving way to our global empire. :thumb001:

[Flintlocke]

Ottoman Empire = Ancient history. Don't care.

[Joe McCarthy]

I like them. Because of their blockage of the spice trade route, it forced us to reach India by sea, giving way to our global empire. :thumb001:

Yes, the competition definitely brought out the best in Europeans. The seizure of Constantinople even spurred the voyage of Columbus. The Ottomans were worthy adversaries; martial and vigorous, conquerors by force of arms, unlike, say, Mexicans who jump fences and swim rivers, or niggers who whine all the time. The Turks are a master people, like Europeans.

[Joe McCarthy]

Turkey is more secular than some Slavic Orthodox countries where the church still hold some influences.

I certainly wouldn't go that far. It is possible to be prosecuted for insulting 'sacred values' in Turkey - in effect a blasphemy law. Take the Turkish publisher of Richard Dawkins' atheist polemic:

http://m.guardian.co.uk/books/2007/nov/28/richarddawkins?cat=books&type=article

'Secularism' does not exactly mean the same thing in the Islamic world that it does in the West or Europe. 'Secularists' in the Middle East could often pass as religious fanatics in the West.

[Unurautare]

All anti-Ottoman speeches have been done so far so I'll only add this:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plevna


the Russians started talks and obtained reinforcements from the army of Prince Carol of Romania (later king Carol I of Romania), who made the stipulation that he be given command of the joint besieging forces[...]Osman surrendered the city, the garrison and his sword to Romanian Col. Mihail Cerchez. He was treated honorably, but his troops perished in the snows by the thousands as they straggled off into captivity.

Bulgarians(especially),Serbs and Russians must never forget. :<

[HungAryan]

The Ottoman Empire was the reason why Hungarians turned from a majority into a minority in Vojvodina (Southern Hungary).
Thus, they oppressed us for 150 years.
Not to mention, they were Muslims, and the only good muslim is a dead muslim.

The Ottoman Empire should have never even existed.
Turkey should be split up between Greece and Armenia, and all the Turks should be deported to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Kazahstan, or India, or Egypt, or whatever...

[Mordid]

400 years of oppression, whats good about that?

[Aces High]

Compared to the British empire it was just a small blip on the radar screen of history.
Quite cruel and here today gone tomorrow.

[Joe McCarthy]

The Ottoman Empire should have never even existed

Fascinating though how this strange, mysterious figure Osman gathered this diverse assemblage of people around him and within a few years went on to challenge Byzantium, no? How is this to be explained?

[HungAryan]

Fascinating though how this strange, mysterious figure Osman gathered this diverse assemblage of people around him and within a few years went on to challenge Byzantium, no? How is this to be explained?

Whatever, you have already shown your true colours a couple of times by saying how you prefer Turks over Greeks and Armenians, so you aren't worthy if rational discussion...

[Joe McCarthy]

Compared to the British empire it was just a small blip on the radar screen of history.
Quite cruel and here today gone tomorrow.

The Ottoman Empire lasted longer than the British Empire in terms of duration.

[HungAryan]

The Ottoman Empire lasted longer than the British Empire in terms of duration.

The Ottoman Empire was still an utter piece of junk.
The Brits spread civilization (or at least attempted to do so), the Ottomans destroyed it.

[Joe McCarthy]

Whatever, you have already shown your true colours a couple of times by saying how you prefer Turks over Greeks and Armenians, so you aren't worthy if rational discussion...

That isn't what I have said. In fact, in Greece's case especially Ottoman rule was the quintessential example of cultureless barbarians ruling over one of the centers of civilization. I think your problem is that you're young and think simplistically, which is a common trait of fascists. Failure to utter anything other than constant demonization of Jews or Turks somehow makes me a fan of them in your eyes. The reality is that I just attempt to be objective, even with essentially hostile peoples.

[Padre Organtino]

Very negative obviously. That said they were a little less destructive for Georgia than Persians or actual Turkic hordes like that of Tamerlan. Europeans were lucky that they had to deal only with Ottomans.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

I admit their great military achievements, but I can have only the lowest opinion on them, since they destroyed the Hungarian Kingdom, and the goal of an united Carpathian Basin.

[Unurautare]

Very negative obviously. That said they were a little less destructive for Georgia than Persians or actual Turkic hordes like that of Tamerlan. Europeans were lucky that they had to deal only with Ottomans.

Oh rly? xD Huns,Avars,Cumans,Pechenegs,Magyars,Golden Horde,Ottomans,Russian Empire,Soviets,Russian Federation. This is not adding the hostile European nations,but at least the Europeans were civilized and civilizing,Slavs and early Germanics(Goths and Gepids) not included because they are barbarians. I hope I didn't left out anybody. :laugh:


@Sagitta Hungarica: you can take your goals back to the Altai mountains.

[Joe McCarthy]

Europeans were lucky that they had to deal only with Ottomans.

Indeed. In Tamerlane's case he actually helped Europeans by flattening both the Ottomans and the Golden Horde. Similarly, the Persians kept Suleiman from throwing his full force at Europe.

[HungAryan]

you can take your goals back to the Altai mountains.

Why don't you take your goals back to your Illyrian homeland instead? :laugh:

http://www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/Balkan1stCce.jpg
http://www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/Vlach-expansion.jpg

[Padre Organtino]

Oh rly? xD Huns,Avars,Cumans,Pechenegs,Magyars,Golden Horde,Ottomans,Russian Empire,Soviets,Russian Federation. This is not adding the hostile European nations,but at least the Europeans were civilized and civilizing,well maybe except for early Germanic invaders(Goths and Gepids). I hope I didn't left out anybody. :laugh:

Russians were conquerors and are now. Despite this they have left some positive legacy with them also. Tamerlan and the likes on the other hand were nothing less than a plague.

[Unurautare]

Why don't you take your goals back to your Illyrian homeland instead? :laugh:


Spare me your fantasies,and talk about facts. I'm a Thraco-Roman,so all your base are belong to us:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Hungarian-Romanian_War_of_1919%2C_Romanian_advance_to_Tisza_-_English.jpg


Next Pannonia:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/images/Roman_Empire_2.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/RomanianSoldierLanchid.png

[HungAryan]

Spare me your fantasies, Vnvravtare...

http://www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/RomanBalkan.jpg

[Nairi]

Turkey should be split up between Greece and Albania, and all the Turks should be deported to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Kazahstan, or India, or Egypt, or whatever...

You meant Greece and Armenia I guess :)

[HungAryan]

You meant Greece and Armenia I guess :)

Yes, yes, I think I mispelled it :)

Turkey should be divided between Greece and Armenia.

[Unurautare]

Spare me your fantasies, Vnvravtare...

http://www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/RomanBalkan.jpg

Roman Empire in marble,Italia bella:

http://www.vroma.org/images/raia_images/trajanmap.jpg

Back to Asia,sir!

http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/History/migration-map/hungarian-emap.GIF

[Zephyr]

The Ottoman Empire was not a cause of european failure, rather a consequence.

[Nairi]

Yes, yes, I think I mispelled it :)

Turkey should be divided between Greece and Armenia.

I know, funny thing is in real life as well when I say Armenia, people ask again...where from, Romania?...and the second choice is Albania, I guess for people who have not heard Armenia it sounds like those countries :)

[HungAryan]

I know, funny thing is in real life as well when I say Armenia, people ask again...where from, Romania?...and the second choice is Albania, I guess for people who have not heard Armenia it sounds like those countries :)

Armenia is a great country. Armenia was the first country in history to adopt Christianity.
Thus, Armenia deserves to have her lands back. :)

[Unurautare]

The Magyars are the pre-Indoeuropean inhabitants of the Carpathian Basin, who came back to their homeland after being driven out by the Indo-Europeans who colonized Europe in the Bronze Age.

Nice fantasy but Hungarians,Mongols and Gypsies were the last tent-immigrants to come to Europe,and this was in late medieval times,only some hundreds of years of presence in Europe,just like Islam and Turks.

[HungAryan]

Nice fantasy but Hungarians,Mongols and Gypsies were the last tent-immigrants to come to Europe.

In that case, Romania is the youngest nation in Europe :laugh:

[Aces High]

The Ottoman Empire lasted longer than the British Empire in terms of duration.

Just shows how superior the British empire was in terms of expansion and conquest.
The fact that you have to communicate in English just shows how bright the British star burned.

[Caeruleus]

the worst thing that could've happened to Europe and especially to Balkans ... too bad balkan nations didnt unite to kick ottoman ass out of Europe

[Unurautare]

In that case, Romania is the youngest nation in Europe :laugh:

Nein,I think Italy and Germany are younger and petit Hungary got independence in 1920-21 so you fail at that. :< Anyway we can leave our endless discussions for another thread and time.

[HungAryan]

Nein,I think Italy and Germany are younger and petit Hungary got independence in 1920-21 so you fail at that. :<

Oh, cry me a river :rolleyes:

bv_T5iZymL8


Anyway we can leave our endless discussions for another thread and time.

Indeed.
Let's focus on the Ottoman pigs instead... :D

[Joe McCarthy]

The Ottoman Empire was not a cause of european failure, rather a consequence.

A consequence of Crusader-Byzantine infighting and Mongol invasions driving Muslims into Anatolia, I'd say. Osman's charisma did the rest and soon the Ottomans were filling the power vacuum created by the Fourth Crusade and its aftermath.

[HungAryan]

A consequence of Crusader-Byzantine infighting and Mongol invasions driving Muslims into Anatolia, I'd say. Osman's charisma did the rest and soon the Ottomans were filling the power vacuum created by the Fourth Crusade and its aftermath.

And you like that?

[Flintlocke]

A consequence of Crusader-Byzantine infighting and Mongol invasions driving Muslims into Anatolia, I'd say. Osman's charisma did the rest and soon the Ottomans were filling the power vacuum created by the Fourth Crusade and its aftermath.

Venice was kicking ass and keeping the Ottomans away until Napoleon's time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morean_War

[HungAryan]

Türken Raus!
Sterben Türken!
Die Türken sind unsere Unglücke! Es ist Zeit für Rache, wir müssen die Türken ausrotten!

[Joe McCarthy]

And you like that?

No. Just commenting on how we ended up with this huge, sprawling empire of Islamic Turks. Perhaps if the Byzantines had been more appreciative of Crusader efforts on their behalf in the first place the trainwreck that ensued following the massacre of Venetians at Constantinople in 1182 wouldn't have prompted the Doge to take his revenge in 1204.

[Joe McCarthy]

Venice was kicking ass and keeping the Ottomans away until Napoleon's time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morean_War

I think that's a rather over-friendly appraisal of Venice's relationship with the Sultan unfortunately...

[Ushtari]

ottoman pride world wide

[Zephyr]

A consequence of Crusader-Byzantine infighting and Mongol invasions driving Muslims into Anatolia, I'd say. Osman's charisma did the rest and soon the Ottomans were filling the power vacuum created by the Fourth Crusade and its aftermath.

Exactly. And it was not the first time something similar had happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine–Sassanid_Wars#Aftermath

There is a parallelism.

[Incal]

Una parte del mondo è che si giace
mai sempre in ghiaccio et in gelate nevi
tutta lontana dal camin del sole:
là sotto i giorni nubilosi et brevi,
nemica natural-mente di pace,
nasce una gente a cui il morir non dole.
Questa se, piú devota che non sòle,
col tedesco furor la spada cigne,
turchi, arabi et caldei,
con tutti quei che speran nelli dèi
di qua dal mar che fa l’onde sanguigne,
quanto sian da prezzar, conoscer dêi:
popolo ignudo paventoso et lento,
che ferro mai non strigne,
ma tutt’i colpi suoi commette al vento.

---------------------------------------- Petrarca

[Joe McCarthy]

?? ??? ??? ????? ??! + ?? ???? ???? ???????? ?????. :laugh:

No point in using the language of the losers. :) A more appropriate post-American language would be Mandarin. ;)

[Leliana]

Yes, the competition definitely brought out the best in Europeans. The seizure of Constantinople even spurred the voyage of Columbus. The Ottomans were worthy adversaries; martial and vigorous, conquerors by force of arms, unlike, say, Mexicans who jump fences and swim rivers, or niggers who whine all the time. The Turks are a master people, like Europeans.
It's disgraceful to us Europeans to see how someone like you bootlicks the Turks in multiple threads again and again. Do you have any sense of propriety? :mad: You're actively fraternizing with the perpetual enemy of European people and make a fool of yourself. The fall of Konstantinopel? The fall of the Byzantine Empire? The aggressive and brutal conquest, siege and vicious transformation of the Balkan? The genocide on the Armenians? The two attacks on Vienna? 'They spurred the voyage...'!? Is that all you have to say?

You're the typical naive and deluded American we dislike and loath! If you like the Turks so much, why don't you support and countenance the Mexican flood into the southern states? The same crap going on on a different continent. Oh well I know, because it's your country affected and that's the small but mighty difference.

The Ottomans, the Turks were always nothing else than a plague to Europe. Countless people were killed, humiliated, raped and forcefully proselyzized in their unholy name. And today Turks are flooding European countries, breed like woodlices and bring down the affected areas to their low level of civilization.

You're a pathetic betrayer! A b-e-t-r-a-y-e-r! Now go on and lick the dirty boots of your secret masters.

http://allahcentric.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/rudolph-ernst-xx-traveling-musicians-playing-for-the-sultan-xx-private-collection.jpg


Тхат щас тхе план! И дислике тхесе "нонрелигиоус" фреакс,тхеы тролл тхе форум лике но томоррощ анд бринг онлы црап то тхе форум.
Wie wäre es mal mit einer Runde 'Klappe halten!' und die einzig wahre Sprache für Wissenschaft und Fortschritt zu sprechen, nämlich die deutsche Sprache, welche all euer doofes Gesabbel in die Tasche steckt? ;)

[Queen B]

My opinion on Ottoman Empire is of course negative.Backwards, brutal ... and fortunately, a history...

[HungAryan]

Leliana is 100% right in everything what she said.

Joe McCarthy is nothing but a traitor.
His pro-Zionism and anti-Nazism is bad enough, but this Turcophilia is even worse... Traitor scum like Joe should skinned alive.
People like him are responsible for our current troubles.
People like him are the ones who approve of non-European migration into Europe, and send our sons to die for Israel...

People like Joe should face trial for treason, and then skinned alive. Wait... even that is too god for them.
How about the Brazen Bull (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBN_3YJKZrY)?
fBN_3YJKZrY

[HungAryan]

I think I know what to do...


nfX2J_D2L7Q

[TheBorrebyViking]

It's disgraceful to us Europeans to see how someone like you bootlicks the Turks in multiple threads again and again. Do you have any sense of propriety? :mad: You're actively fraternizing with the perpetual enemy of European people and make a fool of yourself. The fall of Konstantinopel? The fall of the Byzantine Empire? The aggressive and brutal conquest, siege and vicious transformation of the Balkan? The genocide on the Armenians? The two attacks on Vienna? 'They spurred the voyage...'!? Is that all you have to say?

You're the typical naive and deluded American we dislike and loath! If you like the Turks so much, why don't you support and countenance the Mexican flood into the southern states? The same crap going on on a different continent. Oh well I know, because it's your country affected and that's the small but mighty difference.

The Ottomans, the Turks were always nothing else than a plague to Europe. Countless people were killed, humiliated, raped and forcefully proselyzized in their unholy name. And today Turks are flooding European countries, breed like woodlices and bring down the affected areas to their low level of civilization.

You're a pathetic betrayer! A b-e-t-r-a-y-e-r! Now go on and lick the dirty boots of your secret masters.

http://allahcentric.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/rudolph-ernst-xx-traveling-musicians-playing-for-the-sultan-xx-private-collection.jpg


Wie wäre es mal mit einer Runde 'Klappe halten!' und die einzig wahre Sprache für Wissenschaft und Fortschritt zu sprechen, nämlich die deutsche Sprache, welche all euer doofes Gesabbel in die Tasche steckt? ;)
Remember, not all Americans are like that though. I hate Turks in Europe(having dealt with them in Berlin, and I wouldn't support them anyways even if I never dealt with them).

[Flintlocke]

I know the turks well. We were an independent enclave for centuries. From the sea we were protected from Venice who didn't allow turks to sail the Ionian. And from the land we supported the honorable Bey of Delvina who didn't allow the turks to come and conquer us. Then Napoleon happened and Venice was conquered so the turks found the opportunity to attack us from the sea and destroyed the villages of Nivica and Lukova. 6000 dead, destruction of homes and churches, terrible tortures and all the usual turkish stuff. After that we were vassals for 20 years and were forced to fight against the Suliots, our natural allies. And during that period many independent enclaves in the Balkans were overrun, Mani in Morea was probably the only one that stood.

So I'm not over praising the Venetians, I know their contributions to protecting the West more than anyone.

[Unurautare]

I know the turks well. We were an independent enclave for centuries. From the sea we were protected from Venice who didn't allow turks to sail the Ionian. And from the land we supported the honorable Bey of Delvina who didn't allow the turks to come and conquer us. Then Napoleon happened and Venice was conquered so the turks found the opportunity to attack us from the sea and destroyed the villages of Nivica and Lukova. 6000 dead, destruction of homes and churches, terrible tortures and all the usual turkish stuff. After that we were vassals for 20 years and were forced to fight against the Suliots, our natural allies. And during that period many independent enclaves in the Balkans were overrun, Mani in Morea was probably the only one that stood.

So I'm not over praising the Venetians, I know their contributions to protecting the West more than anyone.

Romanian lords also funded Greek churches(in Greece),better than nothing I guess.

[Queen B]

Flintlocke is an albanian sh|te, dirty turk, the same as all muslim arse-shagers he pretends to be of other nation, in this case Greek.
I haven't seen Flintolocke pretend to be Greek. He said since the start that he is an Albanian born(I think) and grow up in Greece

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

This thread is pretty lame. Lots of Europeans here are sounding like Negroes crying to White persons for slavery. BLAHHH THEY OPPRESSED US FOR 100 YEARS!!! BLAHHH OTTOMANS EVIL!!

Everyone who is capable of oppressing you, will oppress you. That's how life works, bunch of cryars. No wonder we were able to get almost half of Europe beneath our feet, if they had the same attitude of crying about oppressors.

By far, the Magyars are the worst cryars on this thread. Uralized krautslovakians with negroid victim behavior.

[HungAryan]

This thread is pretty lame. Lots of Europeans here are sounding like Negroes crying to White persons for slavery. BLAHHH THEY OPPRESSED US FOR 100 YEARS!!! BLAHHH OTTOMANS EVIL!!

Everyone who is capable of oppressing you, will oppress you. That's how life works, bunch of cryars. No wonder we were able to get almost half of Europe beneath our feet, if they had the same attitude of crying about oppressors.


Does that mean we are entitled to enslave all of you once we get the chance?
Does that mean we are entitled to rape your women once we get the chance? Huh?
What you are writing is nonsense at best.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Does that mean we are entitled to enslave all of you once we get the chance?
Does that mean we are entitled to rape your women once we get the chance? Huh?
What you are writing is nonsense at best.

Yes, but since we are Turk and you are a weak uralized krautslovakian who thinks is going to reverse Trianon shedding tears, you never will. You are unable to defeat Romania, you think you can defeat us? While Ottoman emp was dissolved, at least we could recover all the Anatolian Turkish inhabitated territory which were fractioned in the Treaty of Sevres. You didn't have the balls to wage war and recover what you lost in Trianon. We did.

Magyars migrated to Europe running away and hiding from other Turkic tribes. The inmense fear of the Magyar towards Turks is still very real today.

[HungAryan]

Yes, but since we are Turk and you are a weak uralized krautslovakian who thinks is going to reverse Trianon shedding tears, you never will. You are unable to defeat Romania, you think you can defeat us?

History doesn't always repeat itself.
Hungary WILL be restored to it's former glory.
Once we get Greater Hungary back, we will finance National Socialist movements in other European countries, and once they get power, we will ally with them and kick Turks out of Europe and Asia Minor.

We will deport your asses to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Kazakhstan.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

History doesn't always repeat itself.
Hungary WILL be restored to it's former glory.
Once we get Greater Hungary back, we will finance National Socialist movements in other European countries, and once they get power, we will ally with them and kick Turks out of Europe and Asia Minor.

We will deport your asses to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Kazakhstan.

http://chzmemebase.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/memes-cool-story-bro.jpg

[Unurautare]

You are unable to defeat Romania, you think you can defeat us?

Well we defeated you at the battle of Vaslui and at Plevna. For a small nation,at the time, that always had enemies at it's borders those are pretty good military achievements. There were many others but these are the best remembered:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_vaslui


Stephen inflicted on the Ottomans a decisive defeat that has been described as "the greatest ever secured by the Cross against Islam,"[3] with casualties, according to Venetian and Polish records, reaching beyond 40,000 on the Ottoman side. Mara Brankovic (Mara Hatun), who had formerly been the younger wife of Murad II, told a Venetian envoy that the invasion had been worst ever defeat for the Ottomans.[4] Stephen was later awarded the title "Athleta Christi" (Champion of Christ) by Pope Sixtus IV, who referred to him as "Verus christiane fidei aletha" (The true defender of the Christian faith).[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Plevna

[HungAryan]

http://chzmemebase.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/memes-cool-story-bro.jpg

Oh, cry me a river :rolleyes:


pdlPb3LOfZI

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Well we defeated you at the battle of Vaslui and at Plevna. For a small nation,at the time, that always had enemies at it's borders those are pretty good military achievements. There were many others but these are the best remembered:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_vaslui



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Plevna

Romanians are better in battle than Hungarians. That's why they can't recover Transylvannia. If they had real warrior genes from Attila, like they claim, Transylvannia and all their territory would still be theirs.

[Padre Organtino]

As a responce to Bozkurt - I don't think many people are whining in this thread. They are stating rather widespread opinion that Ottoman Empire wasn't very nice to their people and thus they view it negatively.

[HungAryan]

Romanians are better in battle than Hungarians. That's why they can't recover Transylvannia. If they had real warrior genes from Attila, like they claim, Transylvannia and all their territory would still be theirs.

O rly?

Then how comes that only Russian Intervention could prevent us from winning the War of Independence in 1849?

Or how about the Siege of Belgrade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Belgrade_(1456)) in 1456?
Or what about the Siege of Eger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Eger_(1552)) in 1552?
2 000 - 3 000 Hungarians beat the shit out of 35 000 - 40 000 Turks :laugh:

[Hess]

http://burnpit.us/sites/default/files/jerusalem03.jpg

[Óttar]

xY5WeCkVj00
Doesn't sound much different than Eastern European medieval music.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

http://burnpit.us/sites/default/files/jerusalem03.jpg

http://historiasapodeixis.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/siege_constantinople_bnf_fr2691.jpg

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Yes, but since we are Turk and you are a weak uralized krautslovakian who thinks is going to reverse Trianon shedding tears, you never will. You are unable to defeat Romania, you think you can defeat us? While Ottoman emp was dissolved, at least we could recover all the Anatolian Turkish inhabitated territory which were fractioned in the Treaty of Sevres. You didn't have the balls to wage war and recover what you lost in Trianon. We did.

Magyars migrated to Europe running away and hiding from other Turkic tribes. The inmense fear of the Magyar towards Turks is still very real today.

You see, for pronouncing yourself about why didn't Hungarians fought to recover their stolen lands you have to go through some books about the political situation of Hungary after the end of WWI.

We were unfortunate to have a disloyal ethnicity which Turks didn't had then: Jews. They very smartly took over our government and commanded the Hungarian army to disarm. Hungary was open field because of our treacherous government. For instance the Székely division fought heroically the Romanians, but eventually they were forced from Budapest to disarm themselves. You on the other hand had a true patriot for your country as your leader, Atatürk. As you see, history is much more complex, but to be entitled to give verdicts about the past you must first own a baggage of knowledge, because without it, it is easy to become a mockery.

[Unurautare]

O rly?

Then how comes that only Russian Intervention could prevent us from winning the War of Independence in 1849?

Or how about the Siege of Belgrade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Belgrade_(1456)) in 1456?
Or what about the Siege of Eger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Eger_(1552)) in 1552?
2 000 - 3 000 Hungarians beat the shit out of 35 000 - 40 000 Turks :laugh:

Eger minaret=fail. :\

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Eger_minaret.jpg

[HungAryan]

Siege of Eger in 1552

A small force of approx 2,100-2,300 Hungarians led by István Dobó (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istv%C3%A1n_Dob%C3%B3) defeated the Ottoman force of 35-40,000 men led by Ahmed Pasha.


iEAj4lwX00Q

[Hess]

http://historiasapodeixis.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/siege_constantinople_bnf_fr2691.jpg

I wouldn't be too proud of the siege of Constantinople if I was you, mate.you needed 80,000 men to capture a city of 7,000

from wiki-
Ottoman casualties are unknown but they are believed by most historians to be very heavy due to several unsuccessful Ottoman attacks made during the siege and final assault

pathetic :rolleyes2:

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

I wouldn't be too proud of the siege of Constantinople if I was you, mate.you needed 80,000 men to capture a city of 7,000

from wiki-

pathetic :rolleyes2:

It's more pathethic that you could never recover it, that's why you have some nationalist weirdos wishing about splitting us between Greece and Armenia.

[Loki]

Well of all the Asiatic tribes that invaded Europe (Mongols, Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Magyars, Pechenegs, etc) the Oghuz/Seljuk Turks seem to have been the most successful and left the longest and most enduring legacy.

As a matter of interest, Bulgaria has its name from a Turkic verb bulğa - and came from the Turkic Bulgars, not the Ottomans.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Eger minaret=fail. :\

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Eger_minaret.jpg

So what about the mosque from one of the biggest Romanian cities, Constanta?

http://static.infoturism.ro/poze-vacanta/romania/6ce78519d6ea251fe1471a2ab2e4b8441310638873.jpg

[Mordid]

Do you even think they were much worse than teh Mongol empire?

[HungAryan]

Scenes from "Egri csillagok", showing how 2 000 - 3 000 Hungarians beat the shit out of 35 000 - 40 000 Turks.

Just watch them all.


T26cfsLNr_s
tLOpTp23H2g

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Well of all the Asiatic tribes that invaded Europe (Mongols, Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Magyars, Pechenegs, etc) the Oghuz/Seljuk Turks seem to have been the most successful and left the longest and most enduring legacy.

As a matter of interest, Bulgaria has its name from a Turkic verb bulğa - and came from the Turkic Bulgars, not the Ottomans.

They were so successful that they don't have a state in Europe, practically were kicked out ;)

[Unurautare]

So what about the mosque from one of the biggest Romanian cities, Constanta?

http://static.infoturism.ro/poze-vacanta/romania/6ce78519d6ea251fe1471a2ab2e4b8441310638873.jpg

Wasn't that built during the late XIXth c. at the order of the Romanian King as has his name? :laugh: We don't have mosques from the Ottomans or Golden Horde,we built some for them in the XIXth century because we treat our minorities fairly.

[Loki]

They were so successful that they don't have a state in Europe, practically were kicked out ;)

True, but Anatolia was in those days very connected with Europe through the Byzantine Empire and in the same cultural sphere as Europe.

[HungAryan]

By the time the Ottoman Empire was formed (1299), the Anatolian Turks were far from being Tungid Mongolians...
They were already heavily mixed with Kurds, Arabs, Gypsies, Turkified Greeks and Turkified Armenians.
Heck, the Janissaries (most famous soldiers of the Ottoman Empire) were recruited from abducted Armenian, Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian, Hungarian and Romanian children, because ethnic Turks couldn't fight!

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Wasn't that built during at the order of the Romanian King as has his name? :laugh: We don't have mosques from the Ottomans or Golden Horde,we built some for them in the XIXth century because we treat our minorities fairly.

So Romanians actually built a mosque for the Turks? :eek:

[Hess]

It's more pathethic that you could never recover it.

it is indeed a shame. Still, this is just one the many examples of a small, elite European force fighting to the end against much larger horde.

[Unurautare]

So Romanians actually built a mosque for the Turks? :eek:

For the Muslims living in Dobrogea,but they are few in numbers.

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mosques_in_Romania Seems there is one that was built by Muslims themselves in the XVI century,whatever Dobrogea was never really part of the traditional Romanian lands,it has even more minorities than Transylvania.

[HungAryan]

Remember Eger Ottomans, remember Eger!
2 000 - 3 000 Hungarians beaten the living SHIT out of 35 000 - 40 000 Turks.


T26cfsLNr_s
tLOpTp23H2g

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

They were so successful that they don't have a state in Europe, practically were kicked out ;)

Anatolia was in Europe. And 2 states in more mainland Europe are direct Ottoman consequences. Bosnia, Albania/Kosovo. :D

Since everyone is posting video. I'll post a video of Ottomans pwning some Serbs:
H7fHnbQb2is

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Remember Eger Ottomans, remember Eger!
2 000 - 3 000 Hungarians beaten the living SHIT out of 35 000 - 40 000 Turks.


T26cfsLNr_s
tLOpTp23H2g

Only when you remember Trianon.

[HungAryan]

Only when you remember Trianon.

We will reverse it once Hungarian Nationalists take power.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Anatolia was in Europe. And 2 states in more mainland Europe are direct Ottoman consequences. Bosnia, Albania/Kosovo. :D

Since everyone is posting video. I'll post a video of Ottomans pwning some Serbs:
H7fHnbQb2is

Anatolia was under European cultural influence, but definitely wasn't and isn't in Europe. Heck, it is also called Asia Minor. Face it, you were kicked out from Europe, and today your people tries to crawl back in as the thief tries to enter one's home on the back door. Nobody will welcome you on the front door!

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Anatolia was under European cultural influence, but definitely wasn't and isn't in Europe. Heck, it is also called Asia Minor. Face it, you were kicked out from Europe, and today your people tries to crawl back in as the thief tries to enter one's home on the back door.

You haven't kicked Albanians and Bosnians yet, not solved that. They're still Ottoman legacy.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

You haven't kicked Albanians and Bosnians yet, not solved that. They're still Ottoman legacy.

Unfortunately the Turkish mentality still plagues the entire Balkans, but Albanians and Bosnians are ethnically European populations. They don't have anything to do with Turks.

[HungAryan]

You haven't kicked Albanians and Bosnians yet, not solved that.
That will be solved sooner or later. Just you wait.

They're still Ottoman legacy.
Surely they are, no matter how much are they trying to deny it...
But they shall be expelled.

[Volkodav]

Sagita Hungaica dont use double standards here. You know well why are there mosques in Dobrogea, and were very proud of them.
Usually you (hungarians) and turks (and all muslims) when you conquer something you destroy averything and build again, we on the other hand leave things as they were so people can see what we have conquered, not just a map.
We romanians are one of the only two nations who do this, the other nation who did not changed things in the conquered lands was Poland (Jagelonian house).

We would have been prouder if the mosques were used as museums, but not important because here a turk can not go to toilet and not be recorded in our personal notebooks

[HungAryan]

Sagita Hungaica dont use double standards here. You know well why are there mosques in Dobrogea, and were very proud of them.
Usually you (hungarians) and turks (and all muslims) when you conquer something you destroy averything and build again, we on the other hand leave things as they were so people can see what we have conquered, not just a map.
We romanians are one of the only two nations who do this, the other nation who did not changed things in the conquered lands was Poland (Jagelonian house).

No Mosques in Europe should ever exist.
Not even ONE active minaret or mosque that preaches Islam.

Burn them to the ground, or convert them into Christian Churches.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Sagita Hungaica dont use double standards here. You know well why are there mosques in Dobrogea, and were very proud of them.
Usually you (hungarians) and turks (and all muslims) when you conquer something you destroy averything and build again, we on the other hand leave things as they were so people can see what we have conquered, not just a map.
We romanians are one of the only two nations who do this, the other nation who did not changed things in the conquered lands was Poland (Jagelonian house).

This I am curious how you gonna argue with plenty of evidence?

[Blade]

It's disgraceful to us Europeans to see how someone like you bootlicks the Turks in multiple threads again and again. Do you have any sense of propriety? :mad: You're actively fraternizing with the perpetual enemy of European people and make a fool of yourself. The fall of Konstantinopel? The fall of the Byzantine Empire? The aggressive and brutal conquest, siege and vicious transformation of the Balkan? The genocide on the Armenians? The two attacks on Vienna? 'They spurred the voyage...'!? Is that all you have to say?

You're the typical naive and deluded American we dislike and loath! If you like the Turks so much, why don't you support and countenance the Mexican flood into the southern states? The same crap going on on a different continent. Oh well I know, because it's your country affected and that's the small but mighty difference.

The Ottomans, the Turks were always nothing else than a plague to Europe. Countless people were killed, humiliated, raped and forcefully proselyzized in their unholy name. And today Turks are flooding European countries, breed like woodlices and bring down the affected areas to their low level of civilization.

You're a pathetic betrayer! A b-e-t-r-a-y-e-r! Now go on and lick the dirty boots of your secret masters.

http://allahcentric.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/rudolph-ernst-xx-traveling-musicians-playing-for-the-sultan-xx-private-collection.jpg


Wie wäre es mal mit einer Runde 'Klappe halten!' und die einzig wahre Sprache für Wissenschaft und Fortschritt zu sprechen, nämlich die deutsche Sprache, welche all euer doofes Gesabbel in die Tasche steckt? ;)


Yup fully agree. Joe is your typical Bush type of American the only thing he cares to preserve is his zionist overlords maybe being one himself who knows.

The other funny comparison is to the british empire. The birts held a country 10x ther size and half a world away (india) while not one country of the former turko empire comes even close in size to turkey's population.

But seeing as this thread is about turks and ottomans what to say about them that hasnt been said they're such a plague that in ottoman times it was an insult to call a "noblemen" a turk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Turkism#Within_the_Ottoman_Empire

In the words of a British observer of the Ottoman values and institutions at the start of the twentieth century: "The surest way to insult an Ottoman gentleman is to call him a 'Turk'. His face will straightway wear the expression a Londoner's assumes, when he hears himself frankly styled a Cockney. He is no Turk, no savage, he will assure you, but an Ottoman subject of the Sultan, by no means to be confounded with certain barbarians styled Turcomans, and from whom indeed, on the male side, he may possibly be descended."(Davey 1907: 209)

[Unurautare]

Sagita Hungaica dont use double standards here. You know well why are there mosques in Dobrogea, and were very proud of them.
Usually you (hungarians) and turks (and all muslims) when you conquer something you destroy averything and build again, we on the other hand leave things as they were so people can see what we have conquered, not just a map.
We romanians are one of the only two nations who do this, the other nation who did not changed things in the conquered lands was Poland (Jagelonian house).

I'm not "proud" of them,why would I be? lol ,but it's good for Romania's interest that it shows we treat other people fair,Tatars in Romania even have a special ethnic Tatar day.

[Volkodav]

No Mosques in Europe should ever exist.
Not even ONE active minaret or mosque that preaches Islam.

Burn them to the ground, or convert them into Christian Churches.
These are satanic places so no churches should be there. But must be kept for the future generations to see what we had to fight against. Probably brothels or shools can function in the mosques.

[HungAryan]

These are satanic places so no churches should be there. But must be kept for the future generations to see what we had to fight against. Probably brothels or shools can function in the mosques.

The Cordoba Mosque was converted into a Cathedral.
There is nothing satanic about a building as long as you convert it.
Take away all the muslim symbols, and replace them with crosses and Christian paintings, and make the building function as a Church.

No one gets hurt.

[Unurautare]

These are satanic places so no churches should be there. But must be kept for the future generations to see what we had to fight against. Probably brothels or shools can function in the mosques.

Speaking of,let's compare how Romanians treat their minorities to what Turks do in the oldest church in Constantinople(I posted this before):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Irene
ViTFJ9OzZV8


That is another reason why this needs to happen:

http://puu.sh/bX41

[HungAryan]

http://puu.sh/bX41

Why not this instead?

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/4659/happynow2.png

[Unurautare]

Why not this instead?

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/4659/happynow2.png

Cuz it's cooler to be Roman and speak latin? :<

[HungAryan]

Cuz it's cooler to be Roman and speak latin? :<


http://dogsandbabies.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/no.jpg

[Unurautare]

http://hungryplanet.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/yes_logo.png

:thumb001:

[HungAryan]

:thumb001:

You failed to liberate the Holy Land from the muslim infidels, shame on you.

[Unurautare]

You failed to liberate the Holy Land from the muslim infidels, shame on you.

Wtf? Those were the French,Germans and English,not us. xD

[HungAryan]

Wtf? Those were the French,Germans and English,not us. xD

Why the hell are the Mamluks holding the Holy Land then?
http://puu.sh/bX41

[Unurautare]

Why the hell are the Mamluks holding the Holy Land then?
http://puu.sh/bX41

I was talking exclusively about Romania and Anatolia there,that image is from a game after all.

[HungAryan]

I was talking exclusively about Romania and Anatolia there,that image is from a game after all.

That's why this map is much more ideal:

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/4659/happynow2.png

I was thinking about adding some sort of Coptic Kingdom of Coptic Republic of Egypt, or something like that.

[Volkodav]

Why the hell are the Mamluks holding the Holy Land then?
http://puu.sh/bX41
dude where do you find this pictures ? :)))))))

Is that Europa Universalis Heir to the Trone ? But there is no Romania because the game ends in 1821. Probably a modd

[Unurautare]

dude where do you find this pictures ? :)))))))

Is that Europa Universalis Heir to the Trone ? But there is no Romania because the game ends in 1821. Probably a modd

From my save,about a year ago. I'm playing Divine wind,you can form Romania there,but I changed the color for Romania(it had some grey color,like Bulgaria). Anyway Paradox games usually suck a lot when depicting Eastern Europe(especially Romania),this makes no exception. I should MOD it to have some historical borders and provinces but I don't have the time or the patience,there was a MOD called ROIVO that depicted Romanian lands a bit better but there haven't been new versions since Napoleon's ambition,I think.

[Volkodav]

From my save,about a year ago. I'm playing Divine wind,you can form Romania there,but I changed the color for Romania(it had some grey color,like Bulgaria). Anyway Paradox games usually suck a lot when depicting Eastern Europe(especially Romania),this makes no exception. I should MOD it to have some historical borders and provinces but I don't have the time or the patience,there was a MOD called ROIVO that depicted Romanian lands a bit better but there haven't been new versions since Napoleon's ambition,I think.I love EU, the best game in the world.
Last games I played was EU3 Rome, and EU3 Heir to the Throne, but its booring after a time, the bigger the country is the easyer the game becomes, and if you fail to create an empire of at least 20 provinces you will be destroyed by AI who formed several empires around you.

Im back at EU2, its a lot better at gameplay, but with less options. The ones who created EU1 and EU2 vanilla are not the same as those who created EU3 so in my game EU2 .09 i had to mod a lot of provinces to the exact historical culture, because those idiots learned history from internet forums. Because of hungarian internet propaganda and some other retard central european country i had to mod all the hungarian and german provinces (probably Horty and Hitler designed the game)

[Unurautare]

I love EU, the best game in the world.
Last games I played was EU3 Rome, and EU3 Heir to the Throne, but its booring after a time, the bigger the country is the easyer the game becomes, and if you fail to create an empire of at least 20 provinces you will be destroyed by AI who formed several empires around you.

Im back at EU2, its a lot better at gameplay, but with less options. The ones who created EU1 and EU2 vanilla are not the same as those who created EU3 so in my game EU2 .09 i had to mod a lot of provinces to the exact historical culture, because those idiots learned history from internet forums. Because of hungarian internet propaganda and some other retard central european country i had to mod all the hungarian and german provinces (probably Horty and Hitler designed the game)

I know,EU2 has Romanian culture in Transylvania but not in EU3. EU3 is a Swedish game but they have Hungarians in their staff(though not necessarily working on EU series),get it? :laugh: It's a total lol what they did in Eastern Europe,"ruthenians" and "Ukraine"(!!!) exist,but it took 3-4 add-ons(read games) to make Romania available,also Moldavia is totally non-realistic in borders and size,not to mention Romanians and Albanians have the "south slavic culture"(wtf?) etc. etc. Anyway it's just a game... and it can be easily MOD-ed,I usually make Romanian a Latin culture or create a new cultural group for it "Eastern Latin",and I make Albanian into an unique culture,like Basque is.

[HungAryan]

I love EU, the best game in the world.
Last games I played was EU3 Rome, and EU3 Heir to the Throne, but its booring after a time, the bigger the country is the easyer the game becomes, and if you fail to create an empire of at least 20 provinces you will be destroyed by AI who formed several empires around you.

Im back at EU2, its a lot better at gameplay, but with less options. The ones who created EU1 and EU2 vanilla are not the same as those who created EU3 so in my game EU2 .09 i had to mod a lot of provinces to the exact historical culture, because those idiots learned history from internet forums. Because of hungarian internet propaganda and some other retard central european country i had to mod all the hungarian and german provinces (probably Horty and Hitler designed the game)

You fool, Transylvania was culturally Hungarian before the 18th century.
No one with over 90 IQ believes in the Daco-Roman madness. ;)

[Loki]

Flintlocke e un căcat albanez, turcălău nespălat. Ca toţi bulangii de musulmani se preface că-i altă naţie.

To save you from using the google translator crap:

Flintlocke is an albanian sh|te, dirty turk, the same as all muslim arse-shagers he pretends to be of other nation, in this case Greek.

Mind your tongue, consider this a warning.

[Unurautare]

You fool, Transylvania was culturally Hungarian before the 18th century.
No one with over 90 IQ believes in the Daco-Roman madness. ;)

Bullshit,did Romanians there parachute from the air? xD Siebenburgen je German and with some Hungarians but majority of the population is Romanian. I wanted to make an EU3 MOD representing all 3 cultures in Transylvania but I didn't have time.

[Sarmata]

My thoughts?...ha! My nation bravely defended Europe from those "empire".:thumb001:

[Joe McCarthy]

it is indeed a shame. Still, this is just one the many examples of a small, elite European force fighting to the end against much larger horde.

If there is a US-Russia realignment retaking Constantinople could be back in the realm of possibility. However, if that alliance comes off Turkey will almost certainly implement a crash nuclear weapons program, which of course could theoretically be dealt with too...

[Vorsord]

If there is a US-Russia realignment retaking Constantinople could be back in the realm of possibility. However, if that alliance comes off Turkey will almost certainly implement a crash nuclear weapons program, which of course could theoretically be dealt with too...

I am interested in your opinion, do you think US doesn't want to divide Russia into pieces? (so it will be easyer to drain the recources and there will be one superpower less). I have read many articles by Russian experts that claim that fall of USSR was an American program too, and fall of Russia is the second stage of that program.
Sorry for offtop

[Marmie Dearest]

I think the Ottoman Empire is my best argument against "European people iz most evil because of colonization" and I'm like "ORLY? Ottoman Empire!"

That's what I think.

[StonyArabia]

Positive elements of the Ottoman empire, is they took a lot of refugees who were prosecuted by Russia when they conquered the Caucasus region. Many of the Adyghes, Karbadians, Balkars and Cherkess were often victims of violent programs by the Czar and in some cases the brutality of Russia against Kavkaz people continues to this day.

[beaver]

Yes, Russia at least will wake up.

[Joe McCarthy]

I am interested in your opinion, do you think US doesn't want to divide Russia into pieces? (so it will be easyer to drain the recources and there will be one superpower less). I have read many articles by Russian experts that claim that fall of USSR was an American program too, and fall of Russia is the second stage of that program.
Sorry for offtop

Some of the pro-Chechen neo-cons probably think that way (though they also dislike Turkey), though there are even those in Russia that want to relieve Russia of those areas. One should bear in mind though that Russians see American conspiracies everywhere. It's yet another toxic legacy of the Cold War. I don't see a desire to break up Russia as inherent to US policy and I know of no prominent foreign policy figure in the US who advocates doing it. On the other hand, Russian VIPs regularly salivate over the prospects of the US breaking up.

[StonyArabia]

Some of the pro-Chechen neo-cons probably think that way, though there are even those in Russia that want to relieve Russia of those areas. One should bear in mind though that Russians see American conspiracies everywhere. It's yet another toxic legacy of the Cold War. I don't see a desire to break up Russia as inherent to US policy and I know of no prominent foreign policy figure in the US who advocates doing it. On the other hand, Russian VIPs regularly salivate over the prospects of the US breaking up.

The people in the Kavkaz are not Russian and have a right to their self-determination and independence. The only reason Russia wants the Kavkaz region is because it holds oil especially in Chechyna and it's a strategic location near Iran and Turkey nothing more and nothing less.

[Blade]

The people in the Kavkaz are not Russian and have a right to their self-determination and independence. The only reason Russia wants the Kavkaz region is because it holds oil especially in Chechyna and it's a strategic location near Iran and Turkey nothing more and nothing less.

Those savages are nothing but a burden to Russians. Just look at the behaviour of their diaspora in Russia and hell worldwide even.

[StonyArabia]

Those savages are nothing but a burden to Russians. Just look at the behaviour of their diaspora in Russia and hell worldwide even.

The people in the Kavkaz are not savages nor are a burden upon Russia. It was Russia that expanded into their lands by force and displacing them, and this why many live in diaspora because of that reason. Russia just needs the Kavkaz for it's resources and strategic location and nothing more. As well most Kavkaz people are kind, hospital, welcoming and generous to strangers far from the savages as you call them.

[beaver]

Russia wants the Kavkaz region
Russian dreams, how to get rid of Kavkaz?

[StonyArabia]

Russian dreams, how to get rid of Kavkaz?

Give the Kavkaz independence, but I doubt that's what Russia dreams. If Chechyna get's independence and then all other Kavkaz areas will follow. It's also a dream for many Adyghes and other Cricassians to see their homeland independent and they are finally able to return to their lands.

[Loki]

Give the Kavkaz independence, but I doubt that's what Russia dreams.

Groznenka has explained here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38417) why Chechnya would become just another failed state without Russian support.

[Hess]

If there is a US-Russia realignment retaking Constantinople could be back in the realm of possibility. However, if that alliance comes off Turkey will almost certainly implement a crash nuclear weapons program, which of course could theoretically be dealt with too...

any anti-Turkish action will have to come from America rather than from Russia. As we have seen in the Crimean war, the weakening (and destruction) of Turkey is not to the interests of Britain and France.

[StonyArabia]

Groznenka has explained here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38417) why Chechnya would become just another failed state without Russian support.

Yes she does make valid points why Chechyna might be failed state. Though however I doubt this would happen if Chechyna and other Northern Kavkaz areas, but I also told her not lose hopes in one of my posts especially about aspirations of independence and self-determination. However if Chechyna and other Kavkaz people start becoming pro-American/West, an independent Kavkaz region might in fact not be failed state after all.

[beaver]

Give the Kavkaz independence, but I doubt that's what Russia dreams. If Chechyna get's independence and then all other Kavkaz areas will follow. It's also a dream for many Adyghes and other Cricassians to see their homeland independent and they are finally able to return to their lands.
No problems, to divide Chechnya technicaly from Russia, but then there are wil be problems.

[Joe McCarthy]

any anti-Turkish action will have to come from America rather than from Russia. As we have seen in the Crimean war, the weakening (and destruction) of Turkey is not to the interests of Britain and France.

The Allies attempted to seize Constantinople in the Great War (and Russia was involved on their side whilst Germany aided the Turks). That was of course bungled by a certain future British Prime Minister and made a certain future Turkish dictator into a national hero.

[StonyArabia]

No problems, to divide Chechnya technicaly from Russia, but then there are wil be problems.

It's not only Chechyna that's wants independence in the region but also other parts of the Kavkaz. I doubt there will be any problems in the region but every new nation will have to go through struggles. For example Adygheia, Karbadino-Balkaria, Karachay-Cherkessia all want independence in one way or another.

[Loki]

However if Chechyna and other Kavkaz people start becoming pro-American/West, an independent Kavkaz region might in fact not be failed state after all.

What does America have to do with this? :confused: If anything, alignment with the US will once again put the region at loggerheads with Russia. This is Russia's influence sphere. The US has no business there. The only reason why the US would show interest in the region would be 1) to gain on Russia geopolitically, and 2) for money/oil/commodities.

[Padre Organtino]

It's Russians themselves who now want the independence of North-Eastern Caucasus more than the locals do. Dunno as much about North-Western Caucasus but they also don't strike me as very separatist folks.

[StonyArabia]

What does America have to do with this? :confused: If anything, alignment with the US will once again put the region at loggerheads with Russia. This is Russia's influence sphere. The US has no business there. The only reason why the US would show interest in the region would be 1) to gain on Russia geopolitically, and 2) for money/oil/commodities.

America can also not only gain on Russia geopolitically but also on Iran and Turkey who are neighbouring regions. As well the Americans will serve their economic interest, especially in regards to oil and by forming pro-American groups in the Kavkaz they will ensure American security and power in the region.


It's Russians themselves who now want the independence of North-Eastern Caucasus more than the locals do. Dunno as much about North-Western Caucasus but they also don't strike me as very separatist folks.

There is strong independence movement in the North West Caucasus actually. This is true in the Cricassian republics and leading example is Adygheia

[beaver]

This is Russia's influence sphere.
Russians cannot resolve the problem, Russians can just anihilate Chechnya (about 1/2 of a hours of work). Russians will never control Chechnya. And all Caucasus (from my personal experience).

[Blade]

The people in the Kavkaz are not savages nor are a burden upon Russia. It was Russia that expanded into their lands by force and displacing them, and this why many live in diaspora because of that reason. Russia just needs the Kavkaz for it's resources and strategic location and nothing more. As well most Kavkaz people are kind, hospital, welcoming and generous to strangers far from the savages as you call them.

Yup real nice people raping teenage girls and bombing schools, theatres and so forth. Their diaspora in Canada and the US is hardly better.


"Russians cannot resolve the problem, Russians can just anihilate Chechnya (about 1/2 of a hours of work). Russians will never control Chechnya. And all Caucasus (from my personal experience)."

Its in their mentality in their very fabric to be like that. Ive seen vids on youtube of how the georgians, armenians, chechens and all the other kavkazians that live in Russia I guess its in Moscow, St. Petersburg or some other large city beat Russian women caught on film apparently for no reason there was even one vid of some georgian throwing feces at a girl, another was throwing fries in macdonalds and so forth. Then ive seen numerous articles about how they raped girls who were minors. That tells you a lot about them as people attacking women especially teenage girls thats as low as it can fucking get.

[Loki]

America can also not only gain on Russia geopolitically but also on Iran and Turkey who are neighbouring regions. As well the Americans will serve their economic interest, especially in regards to oil and by forming pro-American groups in the Kavkaz they will ensure American security and power in the region.


That is not a good thing at all - do you have any idea how more American influence in the region would be perceived by Russia? In any case, Turkey is already an American ally.

[Loki]

Russians cannot resolve the problem, Russians can just anihilate Chechnya (about 1/2 of a hours of work). Russians will never control Chechnya. And all Caucasus (from my personal experience).

Sure. If Russians cannot, then how can America? The US just wants more puppet states for their own interests. Look at Afghanistan ... the Soviets withdrew, and the Americans came and are still involved in the mess over there.

[Phil75231]

The Ottoman Empire was an empire like any other, although I don't like that they had that religious tax against non-muslims. Then again Rome and all subsequent empires did shitty things to their subjects too. In any case, I prefer to focus on the present.

[Blade]

The Ottoman Empire was an empire like any other, although I don't like that they had that religious tax against non-muslims. Then again Rome and all subsequent empires did shitty things to their subjects too. In any case, I prefer to focus on the present.

Compare Austrians later Hasburgs to the Ottomans huge difference. Yes the Austrians and Hasburgs did do some bad things but nowhere near on the scale as the ottomans. Not as perverse either.

[StonyArabia]

That is not a good thing at all - do you have any idea how more American influence in the region would be perceived by Russia? In any case, Turkey is already an American ally.

It will be seen as aggression by Russia or an attack upon it. This might start a chain world reaction, but many of the people in the Kavkaz especially those of the independence movement seem to favor pro-American intervention in the region. Turkey is an American alley, but it also seem to shift away from it, but Iran is just around the corner. However the independence movement should not be helped by anyone and should struggle for self-determination should come from within.


Yup real nice people raping teenage girls and bombing schools, theatres and so forth. Their diaspora in Canada and the US is hardly better.

They don't do this, and what you are saying is exaggeration. There are barely people of Kavkaz descent in North America. In fact in my area I am only the person with Kavkaz blood and it's mixed with another element.

[beaver]

how more American influence in the region would be perceived by Russia?
:D very simply, Americans can do all what they want (but out of the Russian borders).

[Blade]

It will be seen as aggression by Russia or an attack upon it. This might start a chain world reaction, but many of the people in the Kavkaz especially those of the independence movement seem to favor pro-American intervention in the region. Turkey is an American alley, but it also seem to shift away from it, but Iran is just around the corner. However the independence movement should not be helped by anyone and should struggle for self-determination should come from within.



They don't do this, and what you are saying is exaggeration. There are barely people of Kavkaz descent in North America. In fact in my area I am only the person with Kavkaz blood and it's mixed with another element.

Tell that to her http://1millionpoints.blogspot.com/2011/12/anna-beshnova.html

Yup real "exaggerations":

Belsan school massacre:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/beslan

Moscow theatre siege:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

[StonyArabia]

Tell that to her http://1millionpoints.blogspot.com/2011/12/anna-beshnova.html

Tajiks, Uzbeks and so on ,are not from the Kavkaz.

Yup real "exaggerations":


Belsan school massacre:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/beslan

It was a sad event, and no one endorses that behavior


Moscow theatre siege:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

No one condones that behavior as well.

The exaggeration was when you said that Kavkaz people act like this in North America when there is very few. As well that is an example of Chechen terrorists who don't represent the whole Chechens nor all the people of the Kavkaz.

[Padre Organtino]

Tell that to her http://1millionpoints.blogspot.com/2011/12/anna-beshnova.html

Yup real "exaggerations":

Belsan school massacre:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/beslan

Moscow theatre siege:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

Not that North Caucasians are a model minority in Russia but Beshnova's tragic death has as much to do with them as any Black gangster's crime with Mexicans.

[Blade]

Tajiks, Uzbeks and so on ,are not from the Kavkaz.

Yup real "exaggerations":



It was a sad event, and no one endorses that behavior



No one condones that behavior as well.

The exaggeration was when you said that Kavkaz people act like this in North America when there is very few. As well that is an example of Chechen terrorists who don't represent the whole Chechens nor all the people of the Kavkaz.

ok here I have a georgian for you throwing fries as I said in my first post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-Qy0Sj0ZHU&feature=channel_video_title

Assyrians have one of the worst criminal gangs in ontario Canada. How many there are depends in which part of NA you live in. Armenians also have a big criminal culture in southern Cali.

More:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RICTiVUwFE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQzZC6KZ9XY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRsn5gJJ-pA

Blocking streets, opening fire in the middle of streets do you want to see more as theres plenty where that came from. Or perhaps I should post the feces throwing one but id prefere to spare other forum members from that.

Armenian crime in South Cali:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/17/us/17armenian.html

[Vorsord]

Am I the only one that thinks if Chechnya (for example) gains independance other autonomous republics part of RF will demand independance too? Like Tatarstan for example, if this happens this will be the fall of Russia. I googled about this subject and this's what I found


In December 1991 when the Soviet Union collapsed unexpectedly, fear was widespread in Russia that the multi-ethnic Russian Federation would not be able to preserve its territorial integrity. Additionally there was fear that Russia would use force to keep Muslim-Turkic nationalities in the Russian Federation. Some observers, both within Russia and abroad, expected the emergence of independent, states of Tatarstan in the Volga-Ural Basin and that of Chechnia in the caucuses. In these regions, they were the focal point of discontent and self-assertion for political sovereignty. The prospects for the breakup of the Russian Federation were further accentuated by the duality of power that prevailed in Moscow. between the Russian supreme Soviet, which was still dominated by the Communist Old Guard and President Yeltsin.
Read the full article, it's quiet informative
http://www.kcn.ru/tat_en/politics/dfa/f_media/malik.htm

I also found this


DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE OF TATARSTAN

The Tatar people are already 456 years in slavery of Russian colonialism as brutal ever known in History of humankind. During this time came to the power many rulers of Russia as czars, emperors, first secretaries, presidents. There were changed also social structure of this country: feudalism, capitalism, socialism etc. Unchanged was all this time only one: a policy of forced converting into christianity, russification, inhuman exploitation, physical elimination of Tatar through permanent and goal-oriented genocide. If at the beginning of 18 century according to the Cense made by Peter Great there were 5.5 millions of Russians and 5.5 millions of Tatar in the end of 20 –th century there are 120 millions of Russians and the same 5.5 millions of Tatar.

At the end of 90 - s Tatars in their last despair had risen up to the struggle with the Russian colonialism and adopted a Declaration of Tatar State Sovereignty, organized referendum with supervision of foreign observers including from USA during of which 61.4 % of Tatarstan’s population approved a claim for Independence from Russia. Moreover, Tatarstan refused to participate in referendum on the modern Constitution of the Russia and to sign the Federative Agreement on creation of Russian Federation confirmed by this illegitimacy of them. There are any legal treaties whatsoever between Russia and Tatarstan on the joining of the last to the Russian Federation. First President of Russia B. Eltzyn agreed to give to the Tatars so much liberties how many they can realize. Unfortunately it was the same kind of deceit as it was before aimed only to pacify Tatars and to win the time. Whereas the Russia was forced to agree with escape from their mastery 14 colonies it categorically refused to recognize the independence of Tatarstan and made more severe its ruling by this colony for destruction of elementary rights it’s people including a right to have local legislative bodies and selected President of Tatarstan. Right now Kremlin is appointing from Moscow it’s Vice-Roy. Moreover, Kremlin Tatars right to have their own Latin alphabet and forced to use entirely unfitting for Tatar language Cyrillic and right now it deprived Tatars opportunity to teach their children in Tatar. Muslim Tatars are subject for severe prosecution, torture and many years of prison for refusal to worship in mosques under the supervision of appointed by Vice-Roy administration mull and for having in their homes Muslim books written in Arabic. The same time there is going merciless robbery of national resources of Tatarstan. 85% of money for sale of Tatarstan’s oil Kremlin is taking for itself depriving by this way their vital means for survival. All this is going in time when Russian Federation cynically and hypocritically recognized an independence of Georgian republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. One can ask what is a difference between rights of mentioned republics and Tatarstan – Russian colony? It is absolutely clear – there is no difference. Truth is the fact that Russia practically enslaved people of these Republics converting them into their citizen. Consequently for Tatars there is no hope anymore for good will of the Russian colonizers for any kind of decolonization whatsoever.

Expressing the will of Tatar People and for it’s save from entire elimination Milli Mejlis (Parliament) of Tatar People is :

1. Declaring support for Declaration on the State Sovereignty of August 30 1990 and confirming illegitimacy including of Repbulic Tatarstan into the Russian Federation without it’s consent.
2. Asking all governments and UN to recognize the Independence of Tatarstan.
3. Creating government of Tatarstan in exile for protection of interests of Tatar People.
4. Calling all Tatars around the world to organize a permanent mass campaign in support of Independence of Tatarstan before their governments and societies.



Adopted at Special Meeting of Milli Mejlis of Tatar People in December 20 2008.
http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f18/declaration-of-independence-of-tatarstan-19705/#post185978

[Leliana]

Since everyone is posting video. I'll post a video of Ottomans pwning some Serbs:
H7fHnbQb2is

Vienna 1529, the Ottomans and Sultan Suleyman I. lost the most important battle of centuries in a wimpy way against the glorious troops of the Holy Roman German Empire.

98_-ghNs-DU

Vienna 1683, the Ottoman horde led by Kara Mustafa tried to conquer 'the golden apple' Vienna again, attempting to gain access to Central Europe. And once again the Turkish hordes suffered an obliterating defeat by the united European power of the Holy League. It was the final, decisive and epic defeat of the Ottoman threat, and in the years afterwards the Turks were pulled back behind the Bosporus where they belong to.

luEkqbTzzPc

Your Ottoman army could defeat some tribes on the Balkan but you had no chance against the noble and hard-bitten Central and Central-East European people; the Germans, the Poles, the Lithuanians, the Venecians; the real holy power of our continent! Ottomans always messed with smaller, less powerful enemies but your Anatolic 'civilization' stands no chance against the most civilized countries and people, we were two or three times taller than you and we still are!


My thoughts?...ha! My nation bravely defended Europe from those "empire".:thumb001:
And as a German I say that I'm proud of the Polish spirit! :) Germans, Poles, Lithuanians and Venecians stood together against the Turks and smashed them into pieces in a really decisive battle about the future of our Europe like no one else ever did!

[Drawing-slim]

:D

[Pallantides]

Sweden allied with the Ottomans to fight their fellow Europeans in The Great Northern War... same with Germany in WW1 :coffee::eek:

[Ushtari]

Swedish - Turkish Brotherhood

[Pallantides]

Supposedly it was Ottoman tax collectors(they helped fund some of Swedens war effort and Karl XII was in debt to them) who brought the Kåldolmar to Sweden.
http://www.tasteline.com/picprod/ImageGallery/Thumbnails/55/77155/33011_13411.jpg

[Ushtari]

Swedes love their Kåldolmar

[StonyArabia]

Am I the only one that thinks if Chechnya (for example) gains independance other autonomous republics part of RF will demand independance too? Like Tatarstan for example, if this happens this will be the fall of Russia. I googled about this subject and this's what I found


The first one to leave the Russian federation after Chechyna would be Adygheaia and followed by other regions. It's a moment and dream for the Adyghes to finally gain their independence from the Russian federation, and followed by other Circassian lands.

[Unurautare]

Supposedly it was Ottoman tax collectors(they helped fund some of Swedens war effort and Karl XII was in debt to them) who brought the Kåldolmar to Sweden.
http://www.tasteline.com/picprod/ImageGallery/Thumbnails/55/77155/33011_13411.jpg

Sarmale. :) Though I only eat them at funerals or other special occasions,and in Romania they usually also contain pig meat.

[Adrian]

http://www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/Balkan1stCce.jpg
http://www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/Vlach-expansion.jpg

Who are the authors of these maps?

I see many comedy films these days, but these maps makes me laugh more than all movies together.

[HungAryan]

Who are the authors of these maps?

http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Vlach.htm

[Caeruleus]

http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Vlach.htm

this site is a total piece of crap ... interestingly enough this shite contains information only on magyars, jews, gypsies and romanians :) well what an "interesting" collection of topics :rolleyes: this site is also available in hungarian :laugh2:

you only have to read a part of the "the ancient identity of hungarians" essay to understand what a load of bollocks this hungolian propaganda really is.

http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Huns.htm

a small extras form this "essay" (read SF material)

The Ancient Identity of Hungarians
The Hungarian-Hebrew Connexion :laugh2:

- An essay realized with the valuable contribution of the Hungarian scholar Hargita Csaba :rolleyes:

apparently imninalu is actually Im Nin'alu a hebrew word, I guess that explains the hungarian-jewish connexion :laugh2: and the fact that the site is also available in hebrew :)

[Adrian]

http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Vlach.htm

Do you/they have any antic map or citation of antic authors/historians to prove something like that?...because I only see propaganda in that web.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

this site is a total piece of crap ... interestingly enough this shite contains information only on magyars, jews, gypsies and romanians :) well what an "interesting" collection of topics :rolleyes: this site is also available in hungarian :laugh2:

you only have to read a part of the "the ancient identity of hungarians" essay to understand what a load of bollocks this hungolian propaganda really is.

http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Huns.htm

a small extras form this "essay" (read SF material)

The Ancient Identity of Hungarians
The Hungarian-Hebrew Connexion :laugh2:

- An essay realized with the valuable contribution of the Hungarian scholar Hargita Csaba :rolleyes:

apparently imninalu is actually Im Nin'alu a hebrew word, I guess that explains the hungarian-jewish connexion :laugh2: and the fact that the site is also available in hebrew :)

The Hungarian-Jewish connection isn't even that out of place. We know that Magyars were in close contact with the Khazar Empire, and many Jews of today descend from the Khazars.

[Caeruleus]

The Hungarian-Jewish connection isn't even that out of place. We know that Magyars were in close contact with the Khazar Empire, and many Jews of today descend from the Khazars.

Yeah, I know Jesus was hungarian :thumb001:;) this forum looks more and more like the idiots convention :)

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Yeah, I know Jesus was hungarian :thumb001:;) this forum looks more and more like the idiots convention :)

I don't expect from someone who proven countless times his limits to know anything about Hungarian history from the second part of the first millennium.

[Unurautare]

I don't expect from someone who proven countless times his limits to know anything about Hungarian history from the second part of the first millennium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Turanism


Turanism and Hungarian fascism

The leader of the Hungarian fascist Arrow Cross Party, Ferenc Szálasi, believed in the existence of a "Turanian-Hungarian" race (which included Jesus Christ). The idea was a key part of his ideology of "Hungarism".[5] The right-wing Jobbik party and its president Gábor Vona are uncompromising supporters of Turanism and Pan-Turkism (The ideology of Jobbik considers Hungarians as a Turk nation.)[6]

Jobbik is the 3rd most important party in Hungary,or has it grown since I heard about it? :laugh:
Hungarians are aliens to Europe,you have need on your brain to prove "Europeaness" while at the same time considering yourselves turks lol.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Turanism



Jobbik is the 3rd most important party in Hungary,or has it grown since I heard about it? :laugh:
Hungarians are aliens to Europe,you have need on your brain to prove "Europeaness" while at the same time considering yourselves turks lol.

Give me exact quote from Vona where he says Hungarians are Turkic. Anybody can write what they want on wikipedia, it's not a reliable source.

[Unurautare]

Give me exact quote from Vona where he says Hungarians are Turkic. Anybody can write what they want on wikipedia, it's not a reliable source.

Well if you don't believe ze internetz article on the Jobbik party it's not my problem,you're the Hungarian,just e-mail them and asked them about it directly in Hungarian ~"Hello, Are Hungarians considered a Turk people according to your ideology?" also share to them that Wikipedia article and see what they say.

[Logan]

First thought: happy it's only a memory. ;)

[Bari]

:p
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/197/7/9/APH___Ottoman_Conquest_by_CielleDuCiel.jpg

[Guapo]

Cool story bro

[Zephyr]

Anatolia was in Europe. And 2 states in more mainland Europe are direct Ottoman consequences. Bosnia, Albania/Kosovo. :D

Since everyone is posting video. I'll post a video of Ottomans pwning some Serbs:
H7fHnbQb2is

Undoubtedly there's something wrong when europeans are taught to be ashamed of their past, we put this burden of guilt upon our own shoulders, we avoid any glorification of our brave defence against arabs, mongols and turks, lest they/you get very offended and threaten us with god-knows-what.

On the other hand it seems that turks even make and broadcast films where they proudly dramatise their murderous incursions into european homes, even after having been accepted in european institutions.

Fuck, it's like a badge of pride you wear. You completely fucked the cradle of civilisation Greece, you looted and submitted all the Balkans, left a legacy of disgrace. Then you get forgiveness, you are shown a red carpet, you colonise Germany, mock them on their own soil, and you fucking take pride on it on public level (even if it's a completely cheesy film, poorly done).

Now Turkey is very angry because France had the courage to not lick your shoes regarding one episode of your typical history: building a nation upon others' blood. I wonder what would happen if Russia aired the massacre of Molodi and all the russian sequence of victories where you never had a chance.

Honestly, today's Europe is so weak and pathetic, that's why you get away with it. It's like poking fun at a cadaver. Zhirinovski is so right about Turkey.

[Joe McCarthy]

First thought: happy it's only a memory. ;)

And yet strangely the Occident was a healthier society when it existed.

[Leliana]

My thoughts on the Ottoman Empire and all Turks expressed in one single picture:

http://s42.radikal.ru/i097/1006/75/c97139a0919b.jpg

[Prismane]

The Ottoman state was the very worst prison-house of nations that ever existed, subjecting members of the enslaved nationalities among the Slavs, Greeks, Armenians, and others to the most savage oppression. The Christian peasant was treated as sub-human, second-class citizen: his testimony in court was not recognized, had no right to bear arms or ride a horse, had to yield to Muslims, and the sultan's goons would kidnap women and children.

The Turks' whores among the Crimean khans committed devastating attacks against the Russians and other members of the fraternal Slavic family, with the kidnapping of hundreds of thousands of people for slavery, until these bloodthirsty beasts were finally beaten into submission in the late 18th century.

The Ottoman cancer was able to have existed for as long as it did because of the machinations of the imperialist countries, especially England and France, which used the Sultan's regime as a weapon against Russia. They worked to preserve the Ottoman state as the 19the century progressed because of their own self-interests.

[brunette]

Horrible. They given most of the Europeans a bad perception of Islam. Not to mention the rape of the Greek and Slavic women and the Janissaries. The only Arabs that did what the Turks did were the Moors.

[Lithewa]

I will speak for myself as well as the Slovaks, but in any case all nations of the Kingdom of Hungary have own experience with the Ottomans. The experiences are very similar as we share common history.

As can be guessed - I've got negative thoughts, too. Janissaries, invasion of Turkic hordes and their plundering touched also Slovak land (or Windischland as my country was originally called then back to the time of the Kingdom of Hungary - Windisch is a term in German language designated for the Slavs, especially the Western Slavs including Slovenians).

Few Slovak towns and villages have kept legends about the events, how people fought back the Turks. Many castles were destroyed, but the Turks never conquered whole historical Kingdom of Hungary - the Slovak land specifically. Bratislava became the new capital and Trnava became the new centre of the clergy for about 200 years. Well, just have a look at an old map (it's in Magyar language, therefore my friend translated it for me) :

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jMARosaPOQk/TXc9UHls3eI/AAAAAAAAArM/6ZzfchEVszc/s1600/osmani.jpg

Pink colour - parts of the Kingdom which weren't conquered by the Turks. Slovak land (being attacked from the south) + Burgenland + north parts of Croatia. That was all that remained independent.

Yellow colour - areas where the rule alternated more times.

Lighter yellow colour - Turkish territory. Hungary itself + parts of Croatia + Slavonia + Vojvodina.

Green colour - Transylvanian principality in collaboration with the Ottomans. Mostly Transylvania.

The Kingdom was almost totally destroyed, but the inhabitants - be it of any nationality - didn't give up and later the Turks had been driven back. ;)

[Flintlocke]

Anatolia was in Europe. And 2 states in more mainland Europe are direct Ottoman consequences. Bosnia, Albania/Kosovo. :D

Since everyone is posting video. I'll post a video of Ottomans pwning some Serbs:
H7fHnbQb2is

LoL the turks have taken lots of Hollywood influences, real battles don't look like that! Even hooligan fights are more organized than this! :D

[The Lawspeaker]

There were few good sides to it:

http://www.butrint.org/images/beyond/03/Gjirokastra_Zekate_house.jpg

http://www.starboardhome.net/2002Chronicles/2002%20images/trept102002/02082269.jpg

http://i.images.cdn.fotopedia.com/flickr-2294526159-hd/Budapest/Places_of_Interest/Architecture/Turkish_period_/Mostar_Bridge__Stari_Most__Mostar_Koprusu.jpg

http://odogan.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/bursa_ulu_cami.jpeg

http://www.bishoppeakgroup.net/People%20and%20Cultural%20Experience/Turkey/Turkey_20070910_0237%20water%20pipe%20tea%20800%20 pixels.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Veliahd_Dairesi_Topkapi_Istanbul_2007_panorama.jpg

--Zztr6nhTE

Like any conquering, marauding empire (like the Moors - centuries earlier) it brought death and destruction. We can thank the Ottomans for the fact that the Balkans is such a heathen mess today but didn't the British and French etc. do the same thing in Africa ?

Like any conquering army they didn't just bring death and destruction. They also left architecture, new ideas, new cuisines, new art. Did you know that the Viennese coffee house dates back to 1683 when the defeated Turkish army left sacks of coffee in their camp that were "liberated" by the Viennese. The rest is history. Did you know that the Kipferl, and the croissant date back to them ? We can go on: look at the bathhouses of Hungary. Like any empire it did leave an imprint on the countries it conquered and then on the rest of us.

We can be very glad that they were kicked out of Europe. But don't say they didn't have both a negative and a positive legacy. Historical accuracy should never be overridden by .. hah a kind of political correctness.

[The Journeyman]

What's their legacy, besides brutality and gay bathhouses?

At least the Moors helped perfect the astrolabe.

[The Lawspeaker]

What's their legacy, besides brutality and gay bathhouses?
Man. You can't drink coffee then, you can check out your own cuisine and see what items you lose. You then need to tear down most of your old cities etc.

In English alone there are a lot of Turkish loanwords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Turkish_loanwords): it will be even more so in the Balkans.

[The Journeyman]

Man. You can't drink coffee then, you can check out your own cuisine and see what items you lose. You then need to tear down most of your old cities etc.

They didn't invent coffee, they did make good coffee though.

What cuisine? Kebab?

[The Lawspeaker]

They didn't invent coffee, they did make good coffee though.
No they didn't .. but it was them that brought it to the Balkans and were also responsible for it's popularity in Europe after the Siege of Vienna.

Just look at the way coffee is made all over the Balkans: basically it's Turkish coffee. (although they claim differently for purely political reasons).

[The Journeyman]

The Turkish contributions you mentioned are shit. I want better ones.

[The Lawspeaker]

The Turkish contributions you mentioned are shit. I want better ones.

Architecture, music, they had scientists of their own. They were nasty folks but do you think that the French of Western Europe were so kind ? Empires are unpleasant entities. It's their very nature that makes them unpleasant.

[The Journeyman]

Architecture, music, they had scientists of their own. They were nasty folks but do you think that the French of Western Europe were so kind ? Empires are unpleasant entities.

What specifically in terms of architecture? You mean building upon the Byzantine style? They didn't contribute really to Europe in this regard.

Scientists? I'm not familiar with them. Have you>?

All European empires contributed far more to mankind than the Ottomans did in all their years ruling over the civilizations of Arabia, Persia and Byzantium.

[Joe McCarthy]

We can thank the Ottomans for the fact that the Balkans is such a heathen mess today but didn't the British and French etc. do the same thing in Africa ?

It's good to see some attempt to be objective with the Ottomans as a hysterical Turkophobia is the norm on this subject, but you can't compare the Ottomans to the British Empire. They did extensive colonization in Africa, brought investment, cultivated farmland, built railroads and infrastructure, and provided the political institutions that allowed states like Botswana to outperform economically some of the former Balkan posessions of the Ottomans. The British legacy, at least, was mostly positive, and while one can make a real argument for the Balkans being relatively affluent pre-Ottomans Africa was less developed before European contact. The Ottomans mostly just used the Balkans to fill their janissary corp. The economic expansion that did occur in their empire wasn't centered in the European part.

[Onur]

Man. You can't drink coffee then, you can check out your own cuisine and see what items you lose. You then need to tear down most of your old cities etc.
Civis Batavi, you forgot the most important thing you Dutch people learned from the Turks;

The tulips, your nation`s symbol.

There was an Hapsburg empire`s ambassador to Istanbul named Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq from 1552 to 1562 AD. He stayed in Istanbul for 10 years but traveled all around Turkey and constantly sent reports to Vienna.

This ambassador was Flemish and he was the first man who brought tulips to Europe from the gardens in Turkey;

He was an avid collector, acquiring valuable manuscripts, rare coins and curios of various kinds. Among the best known of his discoveries was a 6th century copy of Dioscorides' De Materia Medica, a compendium of medicinal herbs. The emperor purchased it after Busbecq's recommendation; the manuscript is now known as the Vienna Dioscorides. His passion for herbalism led him to send Turkish tulip bulbs to his friend Charles de l'Écluse, who acclimatized them to life in the Low Countries. Less than a century later tulip mania was sweeping the United Provinces and ruining its financial markets. Busbecq has also been credited with introducing the lilac to Europe (though this is debated)[2] as well as the Angora goat.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogier_Ghiselin_de_Busbecq

This is his own book from 1560 AD;

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7408/clipboard01tb.jpg
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/1585/clipboard02qcn.jpg

http://www.archive.org/stream/lifelettbusbecq01forsuoft#page/n125/mode/2up

Btw tulips are not native to Anatolia, we brought it from central Asia when we came here and cultivated it. Before this guy bring it to the Europe, tulips were unknown in there. Only the Hungarians was drawing tulip pictures on their carpets and on their furniture ornamentation, because they came from central Asia too but they didn't bring the flower bulbs unlike us.


This Dutch ambassador was also the last man who noted the Crimean Goths and their language. I posted a msg about that here already;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43331

[Onur]

Probably you don't know this part of the European history either;

Especially after the Ottoman-Hapsburg wars in 16th century and so on, western Europeans heard the instruments like cymbals and bass drums for the first time ever from the Janissary military band called mehter. It`s been said that especially during the sieges of Vienna, mehter band continuously played their music at the gates of Vienna non-stop for a month and this started a fashion craze in Europe which continued like more than 200 years `till 19th century `till the political climate changes between the Turks and western Europeans.

This movement named Turquerie was often reflected in the art of the period. Music, paintings, architecture, and artifacts were frequently inspired by the Turkish styles and methods.

Wikipedia article is very good about this;


Turquerie

Turquerie was the Orientalist fashion in Western Europe from the 16th to 18th centuries for imitating aspects of Turkish art and culture. Many different Western European countries were fascinated by the exotic and relatively unknown culture of Turkey, which was part of the Ottoman Empire, and at the beginning of the period the only power to pose a serious military threat to Europe. The West had a growing interest in Turkish-made products and art, including music, visual arts, architecture, and sculptures. This fashionable phenomenon became more popular through trading routes and increased diplomatic relationships between the Ottomans and the European nations, exemplified by the Franco-Ottoman alliance and Persian embassy to Louis XIV in 1715. Ambassadors and traders often returned home with tales of exotic places and souvenirs of their adventures.[3]

The movement was often reflected in the art of the period. Music, paintings, architecture, and artifacts were frequently inspired by the Turkish and Ottoman styles and methods. Paintings in particular portrayed the Ottomans with bright colours and sharp contrasts, suggesting their interesting peculiarity and exotic nature.[4]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/C._van_Loo_Sultane.jpg
Madame de Pompadour portrayed as a Turkish lady in 1747 by Charles André van Loo


History of the movement

In the wake of the Age of Exploration, roughly between the 15th and 18th centuries, there was an explosion in the number of commodities and availability of products. People were using newly created cartography and using these maps to explore the world on paper. There was an accumulation of more objects and a desire for more acquisitions. Coupling this, there was the value of exoticism, valuing things that came from a great distance. Europeans and Ottomans alike were developing a consciousness of themselves in relation to the broader world.[5] At the same time the Ottomans were slowly ceasing to be regarded as a serious military threat to Western Europe, despite their continuing occupation of the Balkans, and campaigns such as that ended by the Battle of Vienna as late as 1683.

New patterns of consumption were arising, especially with trading ships being able to navigate around Africa. Commodities that were once expensive were becoming more affordable. Products often define people in terms of gender, age, and availability of access. This notion of social definition outlines the main theme of the explosion of commodities from 16th century and onwards. The exchange system had to do precisely with accessibility and availability of commodities on a grand scale.[6] It is important to note that this was not just a European phenomenon. The Europeans were not the only people who developed a sensibility of how consuming different things could define their relationships domestically and abroad. In this context, there was a broader view of consumption and one’s place within the world. A person would consume in order to show off their financial position and their social location.[7] Coffee is an example of a commodity that became more popular as Europeans “discover” it in Ottoman lands and experience it. Turquerie would not be just about furnishings, decorations, art, fashion, and clothing, but also what people put in their bodies.


European perspective

There is something unique about ways Europeans developed views of exoticism as greater emphasis is put on empire building and colonies in other nations. There was a growing fashion for Turkish styles in Europe in the 15th and 16th centuries. The Europeans began to see Ottomans not as worthy rivals that they had to contend with and imitate militarily, politically, or diplomatically, rather as having quaint and strange fashions that could be consumed. Consuming these exotic fashions would show one’s elite place in society as well as display their open mindedness and interest in the world.[8] This fashionability is brought by the presence of Europeans in the Ottoman Court and the acts of bringing back their products to Europe. The increased mercantile relationships between the Turkish people and the Europeans aided this process. The continuation of these trading systems help spread the new fashions quickly in Europe.[9]


Decorations and patterns

A brightly-coloured Turkish style of decoration was used on many types of objects, including timepieces. Many of those imported had the hours and creator’s name in Arabic characters. A person who owned one of these timepieces was one with an increased social status.[11]

The Turkish grandeur portrayed by the sultans could be attractive to Europeans. Agostino Veneziano made a portrait of Suleyman the Magnificent, sultan of the Ottoman Empire in 1520. He was known as the “grand Turk” and constantly disrupted European balance. The image portrays the sultan as a gentle, yet barbaric person. He was most known for executing the wishes of the sultana, Roxelana, who wanted their children murdered to secure the throne for one of their sons.[12]

Fabrics were often bright, rich, and embroidered, as depicted in the painting, Himan de la Grande Mosquee by Joseph-Marie Vien in 1748. In the context of turquerie, Turkish textiles were also a luxury in the elitist European homes. They often had velvet grounds with stylized floral motifs. They were often woven in Asia Minor for the European market or, more commonly, as Venetian, under Turkish influence. Italian-styled textiles were often woven by the Ottoman Turks for the Venetians because of their cheap labour and continued business relationships.[13]


Portraits: European and American

European portraits of the 18th century often portrayed one’s social position and wealth. The dress, posture, and props were carefully selected in order to communicate the status correctly. In order to better present oneself in an elitist, exotic fashion, there were often portraits painted in the style of turquerie. This included wearing loose, flowing gowns belted with ornate bands of embroidered cloth. Some have donned ermine-trimmed robes while others have tasselled turbans. Most have abandoned their corsets and attached strings of pearls to their hair.[15] Many portraits have Turkish carpets displayed on the floor, woven with bright colours and exotic designs. The loose clothing and the unorthodox styles add to the stereotypical sexualization of the Ottomans of the time.[16] Europeans were obsessed with Turkish style of portraits at this time. There are also many portraits of Turkish people by European artists. They were often depicted as backward, different, and exotic. It was rare that portraits were painted without wearing their traditional cultural clothing. Perhaps the most influential transformation into the turquerie vogue in Europe was done by Lady Mary Wortley Montagu. Montagu went to Turkey in 1717 when her husband was posted as ambassador there. Her collected letters while there, describing Turkish fashion, were distributed widely in manuscript form. They were then printed upon her death in 1762.[17] Her letters helped shape how Europeans interpreted the Turkish fashion and how to dress. This phenomenon eventually found its way across the Atlantic and in colonial America, where Montagu’s letters were also published.[18]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Margaret_Kemble_Gage.jpg/480px-Margaret_Kemble_Gage.jpg
Mrs. Thomas Gage by John Singleton Copley, 1771. A perfect representation of the turquerie vogue.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Jean-%C3%89tienne_Liotard_008.jpg
A Woman in Turkish Dress, pastel on parchment, by Jean-Étienne Liotard


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Turquerie_by_La_Tour.jpg
Turquerie by Maurice Quentin de La Tour


Opera

In 18th century Europe, it was in fashion to smoke Turkish tobacco in a Turkish pipe, wearing a Turkish robe, all while in an elaborate Turkish costume.[19] European opera was influenced heavily by the idea of turquerie. Mehmed II (1451–1481), the conqueror who is considered the founder of the Ottoman Empire, had many operas written about him. His defeat of Constantinople in 1453 was the basis of the German opera Mehmed II, composed by Reinhard Keiser in 1693.[20] As well, there were many operas based on the ongoing conflicts between Timur and Beyazid I, including Tamerlano by George Handel. These stories of perseverance and passion appealed to many Europeans and therefore gained popularity. One of France’s most important opera genres was tragedie lyrique, depicted by Scanderberg, with music by François Rebel and Francois Francoeur and the libretto by Antoine Houdar de la Motte in 1735.[21] This opera was visually one of the most elaborate of the Turkish operas, with detailed scenic designs for mosques and seraglio courts. As well, many exotic characters were displayed.

Operas using themes from turquerie were in the usual European languages but tried to imitate the Turkish culture and customs. It offered a world of fantasy, splendor, and adventure that was unattainable by the average person.[22] Audiences would be fascinated with the Turkish and Ottoman institutions depicted. The stories and implications as well as the extravagant costumes and elaborate staging appealed to the people. The Europeans craved reality in their depiction of the Turkish peoples. During performances, females would often be in the latest fashion, where local colour was suggested by foreign attire or numerous ornaments. The males tended to wear more authentic Turkish dress than the female, including a turban, sash, long caftan, and binding with rich material.[23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turquerie




Turkish music (style)

"Turkish music", in the sense described here, is not really music of Turkey, but rather a musical style that was occasionally used by the European composers of the Classical music era. This music was modeled — though often only distantly — on the music of Turkish military bands, specifically the Janissary bands.


Description

"Turkish" music is always lively in tempo, and is almost always a kind of march.

When "Turkish" music was scored for orchestra, it normally used extra percussion instruments not otherwise found in orchestras of the Classical period: typically, the bass drum, the triangle, and cymbals. These instruments really were used by the Turks in their military music, so at least the instrumentation of "Turkish" music was authentic. Often there is also a piccolo, whose penetrating tone adds to the outdoor atmosphere.

It seems that at least part of the entertainment value of "Turkish" music was the perceived exoticness. The Turks were well known to the citizens of Vienna (where Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven all worked) as military opponents, and indeed the centuries of warfare between Austria and Ottoman Empire had only started going generally in Austria's favor around the late 17th century. The differences in culture, as well as the frisson derived from the many earlier Turkish invasions, apparently gave rise to a fascination among the Viennese for all things Turkish—or even ersatz Turkish. This was part of a general trend in European arts at the time.


Examples

All three of the great Classical era composers, Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven, wrote at least some "Turkish" music.


Mozart

* Mozart's opera "The Abduction from the Seraglio" (Die Entführung aus dem Serail), from 1782, is the quintessential work of Turkish music, as the whole plot centers on the stereotyping of comically sinister Turks. (The Pasha, at least, turns out noble and generous in the end.) The overture to the opera as well as two marches for the Janissary chorus are Turkish music in the sense just described.

* The Piano Sonata in A, K. 331 (1783) ends with the famous rondo marked "Alla Turca", "in the Turkish style". Rapid arpeggios in the left hand are used to imitate the "Turkish" instruments. The imitation probably came closer with the piano of Mozart's day, whose bass strings made something of a rattle when played loudly, than is possible on modern instruments.

* The finale of the Violin Concerto No. 5 in A major K. 219 (1775), sometimes called the "Turkish" Concerto, is interrupted by a loud episode of Turkish music. Mozart adapted this passage from an earlier ballet, "Le gelosie del seraglio" ("The jealous seraglio women") K. 135a, composed for Milan in 1772. In the concerto, the cellos and double basses add to the percussive effect by playing their instruments coll' arco al roverscio, that is to say, col legno, striking the strings with the wood of the bow.


Haydn

* Haydn's opera L'incontro improvviso ("The Unforeseen Encounter", 1775) is somewhat similar in its subject to Mozart's later "Abduction from the Seraglio" and also includes Turkish music, for instance the overture.[1]

* Haydn's "Military" Symphony (1794) uses Turkish music in both the second movement (which depicts a battle) and in a brief reprise at the end of the finale.


Beethoven

* In 1811, Beethoven wrote an overture and incidental music to a play by August von Kotzebue called The Ruins of Athens, premiered in Pest in 1812. One item from the incidental music (Op. 113, No. 4) is the Turkish march. Beethoven also wrote a set of variations on his march for piano, Op. 76.

* Beethoven's Wellington's Victory, also called the "Battle" Symphony (Op. 91, 1813) commemorates the British victory in the Battle of Vitoria. The opposing British and French armies march to battle with Turkish-music versions of their respective battle songs, "Rule Britannia" and "Malbrouk s'en va-t-en guerre".

* Beethoven returned again to "Turkish" music, by this time rather out of vogue, in a passage of the final movement of his Ninth Symphony (1824). A tenor soloist, assisted by the tenors and basses of the chorus, sings a florid variation on the famous theme, accompanied by Turkish music from the orchestra.


Others

Turkish music also appears in works of Jean-Philippe Rameau, Michael Haydn, Gioacchino Rossini, Ludwig Spohr, in two operas of Gluck's, Iphigenie auf Tauris (1764) and Die Pilger von Mekka (1779), and in Symphony No.6 A minor ("Sinfonie turque") by Friedrich Witt (1770–1836). Paul Wranitzky, who in his lifetime was one of Vienna's most famed composers also wrote Turkish influenced music, including a large-scale symphony. Franz Xaver Süssmayr, best known for completing Mozart's unfinished Requiem, also composed several Turkish works, including operas and symphonies. Other composers who have written excellent examples of Turkish music include Joseph Martin Kraus, Ferdinand Kauer and Ferdinando Paer.


History

An important impetus for "Turkish" music occurred in 1699, when Austria and Ottoman Empire negotiated the Treaty of Karlowitz. To celebrate the treaty, the Turkish diplomatic delegation brought a Janissary band along with other performers to Vienna for several days of performances.

Although the Janissary sound was familiar in Europe during the 18th century, the Classical composers were not the first to make use of it; rather, the first imitators were military bands. The cultural influence at first involved actual importation of Turkish musicians, as Henry George Farmer relates:

"The credit for having introduced this battery of percussion and concussion into Europe usually goes to Poland which, in the 1720s, had received a full Turkish band from the Sultan. Russia, not to be outdone, sought a similar favour of the Sublime Porte in 1725, Prussia and Austria following suit, and by the 1770s most other countries had fallen under the sway of Janissary Music."[3]

The importation of actual musicians was only a temporary phenomenon, and the later custom was to assign the Turkish instruments in European military bands to black performers, who dressed for their jobs in exotic Eastern garb.

Thus, "Turkish" music in Europe had two connotations—Eastern and military—for Classical-era composers. The Turkish association did not evaporate soon. Even during the 1820s, in planning the last movement of the Ninth Symphony, Beethoven made a note to himself specifically stating that it would contain "Turkish" music. The use of the slang term "Turkish section" to describe the percussion section of an orchestra apparently persisted into modern times.

Eventually it became possible to write music with bass drum, triangle, and cymbals without necessarily evoking a Turkish atmosphere, and in the later 19th century symphonic composers made free use of these instruments. Thus in the long run the Turkish instruments are a gift to Western classical music from the Turkish military-music tradition.


The "Turkish stop" on early pianos

Around the turn of the 19th century, "Turkish" music was so popular that piano manufacturers made special pianos with a "Turkish stop," also called the "military" or "Janissary" stop. The player would press a pedal that caused a bell to ring and/or a padded hammer to strike the soundboard in imitation of a bass drum. The sound file for the first musical example above attempts to mimic the latter effect manually with a modern piano.

According to Edwin M. Good, the Turkish stop was popular for playing the Mozart K. 331 rondo mentioned above, and "many were the pianists who gleefully used the Janissary stop to embellish it."[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_music_%28style%29






This is "Marche pour la cérémonie des Turcs"(anthem for the ceremony of the Turks) by Jean-Baptiste Lully, 17th century composer. He was the official musician of the French imperial court of the Louis XIV. Most of the works of Jean-Baptiste Lully was highly influenced from Janissary mehter music and he was the one who created the style of French military marches by taking mehter music as an inspiration. Btw French military suits in red color is created as inspired from the red uniforms of Turkish soldiers. It`s been said that Jean-Baptiste Lully was in Vienna during the 2nd siege of Vienna by Ottoman Empire at 17th century.

This is my personal favorite. Baroque style with the banging drums of mehter band. Lully`s music is really amazing;
Sy-yugPw_X8


This is the jazz style version of Mozart`s "Alla Turca"(Turkish March). Performed by Fazil Say on piano and Sertab Erener`s vocals;
vvwYsuQaY5Y

[The Lawspeaker]

See the stuff we are not being told about. :)

[The Lawspeaker]

Dutch-Turkish relations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands%E2%80%93Turkey_relations) were also very interesting. Here is some more about the first official Dutch governor, Cornelis Haga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Haga). He served the Dutch Republic as it's envoy to Turkey from 1612 to 1639. 2012 thus will be (and it's official- I just looked it up) marked by commemorations of 400 years of (good) relations.

More about Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghiselin_de_Busbecq) who served the Holy Roman Empire as it's envoy to Turkey from 1554-1556 and again from 1556- 1564.

Maybe it's typical of Dutch that we always seem to be well-connected and able to open closed doors as the article about Haga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Haga) shows:

Haga, who was married to Alithea Brasser, received the capitulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitulations_of_the_Ottoman_Empire) of the Ottoman sultan, Ahmed I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_I) in 1612. This allowed the Dutch to trade with the Ottoman Empire under their own jurisdiction. The sultan also granted the Dutch several privileges, including exemption of certain taxes and limited autonomy within the empire.

Compare it to Dutch-Japanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93Netherlands_relations) relations.

[The Journeyman]

A few quaint marches are hardly an influence on Classical music. It was the German/Austrian interpretation of a Turkish march. It was similar to Puccini incorporating "asian elements" into his operas.

Beethoven's The Ruins of Athens is a celebration of the Occident. The lyrics correspond with how I view the Turkish influence on the west:

Daughter of Mighty Zeus! Awake!
Her name resounds!
The years of wrath are past!
We are reconciled!...

To suffer slavery, though guiltless, is misery!
Every day new sorrow to get our scrap of bread!
On its branch shines the fig tree’s sweet fruit,
not for the slave that tended it
but for the cursed master!
The people oppressed,
bent low by his hand,
ah! ah! ah! ah!
what has befallen you,
my poor fatherland!

With lively and ardent joy
welcome the two holy sisters,
for where the Muse gravely presides
we gladly sacrifice at her altar.
What great souls have suffered,
struggling with fate,
Melpomene, as warning, sets before us;
while Thalia, keeping watch upon our ways,
instructs us by use of merry jests.
The Muses’ sport works to our benefit,
for mortals’ ennoblement is their goal.

[Onur]

Beethoven's The Ruins of Athens is a celebration of the Occident. The lyrics correspond with how I view the Turkish influence on the west:

Daughter of Mighty Zeus! Awake!
Her name resounds!
The years of wrath are past!
We are reconciled!...
But this wasn't caused by an influence from Greeks during the Beethoven`s era unlike the Turquerie movement.

This was just a romantic fantasy about ancient Greece created by the philhellenes of western Europe. Already, after Greece became independent in 1830, these philhellenes greatly disappointed because instead of the Hercules and Aphrodites, they found a bunch of Albanian speaking lazy people in Athens.

Also, ancient Greek civilization has been destroyed by the Romans after christianization, not by Turks.

[Queen B]

But this wasn't caused by an influence from Greeks during the Beethoven`s era unlike the Turquerie movement.

This was just a romantic fantasy about ancient Greece created by the philhellenes of western Europe. Already, after Greece became independent in 1830, these philhellenes greatly disappointed because instead of the Hercules and Aphrodites, they found a bunch of Albanian speaking lazy people in Athens.

Also, ancient Greek civilization has been destroyed by the Romans after christianization, not by Turks.

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/thumb/7/73/JeanLucPicardFacepalm.jpg/618px-JeanLucPicardFacepalm.jpg

[Onur]

What Dandelion? Truth hurts?

Remember that, before Greek state has been founded, it was belonged to the ottoman empire for about ~400 years. In 1820s, Athens was just a simple Albanian town named "sanjak Arnavut" of Morea. This is attested in Ottoman records, on many ethnic maps drawn in western Europe and in the diaries of the philhellenes who came to Greece after 1830 and in many books published in western Europe around 1830-1850.

Sorry if i hurt your feelings by telling the truth!!! You can keep considering it as 10.000 year old hellenic city tough, np at all.

[The Lawspeaker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Ac.oldathens.gif

A view (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_athens#Ottoman_Athens) of the Acropolis of Athens during the Ottoman period, showing the buildings which were removed at the time of independence.

The impressive Athens that we know today was the result of painstaking work during the 19th century by Germans and British. I think that Greece has numerous reasons to be very grateful to people like Lord Elgin, King Othon and Schliemann.

[Queen B]

What Dandelion? Truth hurts?

Remember, before Greek states has been founded, it was belonged to the ottoman empire for about ~400 years.
And before belonging to the Ottomans for 400 years, belonged to Greek and Roman for thousands of years,too.
So?



In 1820s, Athens was just a simple Albanian town named "sanjak Arvanite" in Morea. This is attested in Ottoman records, on many ethnic maps drawn in western Europe and in the diaries of the philhellenes who came to Greece after 1830 and in many books published in western Europe around 1830-1850.

In 1820-30, Athens was a village that didn't have more than 400 houses, and not a metropolitan city of almost 5.000.000, like it is now.

So, saying that ''phillelines'' to be dissapointed because of a village, that wasn't even the capital of Greece that period, is simply funny to say.Let along having ''Phillelines'' finding the ''lazy people'' there,as you said.




Sorry if i hurt your feelings by telling the truth!!! You can keep considering it as 10.000 year old hellenic city tough, np at all.
No, but I clearly can tell when Athens was blooming? During ancient years and Roman, or being as a meaningless village of 400 houses, during Ottoman years?

[Onur]

So, saying that ''phillelines'' to be dissapointed because of a village, that wasn't even the capital of Greece that period, is simply funny to say.Let along having ''Phillelines'' finding the ''lazy people'' there,as you said.
I said, philhellenes disappointed because of the people in there. They were so into the ancient Greeks with the stories and poetry they read, maybe they were thinking like they will find Adonis, Hercules and Aphrodites in there and disappointed afterwards.

Here is one book from 1850, published in London. A diaries of a British philhellene, who came to Athens right after the independence;

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1367/clipboard03yb.jpg
books.google.com/books?id=9wCiFSLmEM4C

There are many more books like that, written by philhellenes, expressing their disappointment of cannot finding the ancient Greek in their dreams. Many of them came to Greece in 1830s and even tried to analyze people anthropologically if they resemble the ancient Greek statues or not.

Also, it`s stupid to deny Albanian (Arvanite) character of Greece, don't do that.

/Facepalm to you :S

[Ouistreham]

The Ottoman empire was and is the enemy, and never was Europe. Period.


A few quaint marches are hardly an influence on Classical music. It was the German/Austrian interpretation of a Turkish march. It was similar to Puccini incorporating "asian elements" into his operas.

Beethoven's The Ruins of Athens is a celebration of the Occident. The lyrics correspond with how I view the Turkish influence on the west:

Daughter of Mighty Zeus! Awake!
Her name resounds!
The years of wrath are past!
We are reconciled!...

To suffer slavery, though guiltless, is misery!
Every day new sorrow to get our scrap of bread!
On its branch shines the fig tree’s sweet fruit,
not for the slave that tended it
but for the cursed master!
The people oppressed,
bent low by his hand,
ah! ah! ah! ah!
what has befallen you,
my poor fatherland!

With lively and ardent joy
welcome the two holy sisters,
for where the Muse gravely presides
we gladly sacrifice at her altar.
What great souls have suffered,
struggling with fate,
Melpomene, as warning, sets before us;
while Thalia, keeping watch upon our ways,
instructs us by use of merry jests.
The Muses’ sport works to our benefit,
for mortals’ ennoblement is their goal.

This is one of the few favours the Turkish empire unwillingly gave us: an excuse for exploring new (European) territories in (European) music, for pioneering new (European) ways in sounds and melody.


Two great instances:

One of JB Lully's best works was called Marche pour la Cérémonie des Turcs:
4NTpJ_rMqow

And one of Beethoven's most awesome compositions is the incredible Chor der Derwische, from Die Weihe des Hauses, listen to that, it's a must, it sounds like Carl Orff!

omFdAYpAXgY
Du hast in deines Ärmels Falten
Den Mond getragen, ihn gespalten.
Kaaba!
Mahomet!
Du hast den strahlenden Borak bestiegen
Zum siebenten Himmel aufzufliegen,
Großer Prophet! Kaaba!

[Queen B]

Also, it`s stupid to deny Albanian (Arvanite) character of Greece, don't do that.

And where exactly did I deny the Arvanite element? :confused:

[The Lawspeaker]

It's funny that France was their most loyal ally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Ottoman_alliance) then. Even closer then we were with the Turks as trading partners.

[Onur]

It's funny that France was their most loyal ally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Ottoman_alliance) then. Even closer then we were with the Turks as trading partners.
Yes, France was the best Ottoman ally for centuries, often accused by the Pope and Hapsburgs as traitors and muslim collaborators. Ottoman empire even sent their navy fleet to France to help them against the Hapsburgs.

This was a political union tough. French hated the Germans (as always) and Turks was the sole power who can crush Hapsburgs and capture Vienna or at least deliver lethal damage to them, so Hapsburgs cannot deal with the French. Ofc they allied with us against common enemy, the Hapsburg :)

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, France was the best Ottoman ally for centuries, often accused by the Pope and Hapsburgs as traitors and muslim collaborators. Ottoman empire even sent their navy fleet to France to help them against the Hapsburgs.

This was a political union tough. French hated the Germans (as always) and Turks was the sole power who can crush Hapsburgs and capture Vienna or at least deliver lethal damage to them, so Hapsburgs cannot deal with the French. Ofc they allied with us against common enemy, the Hapsburg :)
And now that the Habsburgers are no longer there they seem to want to forget that it ever happened. :thumb001:

A bit like this picture:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4NRIl47o8Ng/TJtB_ydcshI/AAAAAAAACFo/oTe8A2eTLTI/s1600/Adolf_Hitler_Paris_1940.jpg

"It never happened !"

[The Journeyman]

And now that the Habsburgers are no longer there they seem to want to forget that it ever happened. :thumb001:

A bit like this picture:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4NRIl47o8Ng/TJtB_ydcshI/AAAAAAAACFo/oTe8A2eTLTI/s1600/Adolf_Hitler_Paris_1940.jpg

"It never happened !"



Que?

[Ouistreham]

And now that the Habsburgers are no longer there they seem to want to forget that it ever happened

Of course we don't.
We're not like Dutch cowards!

Every European power played at some time the (Turkish) Muslim card against its supposed brothers:
- Venice and/or Genoa against Constantinople,
- France against Austria while our Swedish ally did against Russia,
- Germany and Austria against Britain, France and Russia,
- and now America against Europe.

[The Lawspeaker]

Of course we don't.
We're not like Dutch cowards!
I was taking the piss, neighbour. :thumb001: I know how French feel about black spots in their history.


Every European power played at some time the (Turkish) Muslim card against its supposed brothers:
- Venice and/or Genoa against Constantinople,
- France against Austria while our Swedish ally did against Russia,
- Germany and Austria against Britain, France and Russia,
- and now America against Europe.
We all did and nothing has ever changed.

[Joe McCarthy]

I disagree with US policy on Turkish accession to the EU but it cannot really be compared to making military alliances with the Ottoman Empire against rival European states. However misguided it is, the US wants to integrate Turkey into the EU to solidify its status as a Western state away from the grasp of radical Islamists in Iran and elsewhere.

[The Lawspeaker]

I disagree with US policy on Turkish accession to the EU but it cannot really be compared to making military alliances with the Ottoman Empire against rival European states. However misguided it is, the US wants to integrate Turkey into the EU to solidify its status as a Western state away from the grasp of radical Islamists in Iran and elsewhere.
Which I believe is a misguided policy but still understandable - from an American point of view.

"Better with us.. then with them."

[Joe McCarthy]

Which I believe is a misguided policy but still understandable - from an American point of view.

"Better with us.. then with them."

Yes, exactly. And if Turkey doesn't join the EU it'll become a hostile regime that could play a deciding factor in who dominates the planet in the coming decades. The problem is that for myriad reasons Turkey cannot be assimilated into Europe.

What's interesting is how anti-American the average Turk is even with our supporting their EU accession.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, exactly. And if Turkey doesn't join the EU it'll become a hostile regime that could play a deciding factor in who dominates the planet in the coming decades. The problem is that for myriad reasons Turkey cannot be assimilated into Europe.

What's interesting is how anti-American the average Turk is even with our supporting their EU accession.

So it's a matter of: damned if you do damned if you don't. There is no satisfactory way out of this situation and I think that we can say that Europe and the Turks are keeping each other hostage. A marriage of convenience.. rather then love and it's already falling apart before the engagement rings are exchanged.

[Incal]

However misguided it is, the US wants to integrate Turkey into the EU to solidify its status as a Western state away from the grasp of radical Islamists in Iran and elsewhere.

Kinda, I think the US wants to keep Turkey as Israel's ally.

[Petros Houhoulis]

But this wasn't caused by an influence from Greeks during the Beethoven`s era unlike the Turquerie movement.

This was just a romantic fantasy about ancient Greece created by the philhellenes of western Europe. Already, after Greece became independent in 1830, these philhellenes greatly disappointed because instead of the Hercules and Aphrodites, they found a bunch of Albanian speaking lazy people in Athens.

Also, ancient Greek civilization has been destroyed by the Romans after christianization, not by Turks.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha... Where did you get this info? At the Filthsite? Sources? (Real ones, not the mishmash of Vangelovski and the other "warriors"...)

Of course there were Arvanites in Athens at that time, but they were not the majority as they teach you. Athens was also insignificant and the Arvanites were just a small bunch in the North-East of the Peloponesse and East Central Greece at that time - the only place where they were significant were in the Aegean islands. As for them being lazy... Sure, all of the Southerners appear "lazy" in the eyes of the Northerners despite the fact that all statistics disprove their claims. In reality a few lazy pashas create the stereotype while the most of the populace is even more hard-working than the Northerners. This is a fact of life for many millenia now, and it was much worse during the past. Back then they used to build entire pyramids for the sake of a pharaoh...

Whatever the case, the Greeks are by far more liberal than the Turks ever were, and that is because of the geography. As a result, even if you replace all of them with foreigners, they'll become liberals again and they shall clinge to the heritage of their territory, becoming Greeks once more. On the other hand there are the Turks whose best achievments are genocides, gardening, ah! We just added their meagre support to the creation of the Dutch republic.

...Beyond that, sure, the Austrians would never have opera without the Turks, Turquerie or no Turquerie... I am sure that the Austrians did nothing more than to copy the Turkish opera... Turkish Opera! Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.

Onur, for once, get serious. If the Austrians were inspired by your folks, it was just because you were there, not because you had a musical tradition. If the Zulu were bordering the Habsburgs then the latter would have been inspired by the Zulus and they would have created a Zuluerie movement, still though, not because of the Zulus' musical tradition.

In fact both the Romantic movement towards Ancient Greece, the Turquerie, and whatever else the Europeans created were mostly about their own perceptions of Ancient Greece or contemporary Turkey (Ottoman empire) rather than what Ancient Greece or contemporary Turkey (Ottoman empire) really were... The only difference is that Ancient Greece is something worth studying and commemmorating at any time in human history, while the Ottoman Turks didn't even bother to write a proper history. The most famous Turkish writer of the Ottoman era was that Evliya Çelebi fella, a folklorist, something like Herodotus a few thousand times more boring as poor Evliya wasted too much space praising Allah and the Sultans. Apparently not even the contemporary Turks thought that they were important enough to write about themselves... Personally I've never heard of such a thing as an Ottoman historian... Your best architect Mimar Sinan was either Greek or Armenian in both origin and knowledge... Why would anybody bother much nowadays to list any Ottoman achievments is anybodys' guess - unless if he is interested in the study of a long trail of corpses that I was writing about in that other thread. Now if you do not even bother go back to answer those allegations, don't waste your time telling us about what is the modern ethnic composition of Greece in every post in order to deconstruct modern Greece, because you shall fail. Trust me, we all descent from a bunch of monkeys in East Africa, so ot doesn't really matter. But the fact that a large number of you are still unrepentant savages does matter.

As for the Greek civilization being destroyed by the Romans... Yeah sure! This is why the Romans copied everything Greek, because they wanted to destroy it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_art


While the traditional view of Roman artists is that they often borrowed from, and copied Greek precedents (much of the Greek sculpture known today is in the form of Roman marble copies), more recent analysis has indicated that Roman art is a highly creative pastiche relying heavily on Greek models but also encompassing Etruscan, native Italic, and even Egyptian visual culture. Stylistic eclecticism and practical application are the hallmarks of much Roman art.
Pliny, Ancient Rome’s most important historian concerning the arts, recorded that nearly all the forms of art — sculpture, landscape, portrait painting, even genre painting — were advanced in Greek times, and in some cases, more advanced than in Rome. Though very little remains of Greek wall art and portraiture, certainly Greek sculpture and vase painting bears this out. These forms were not likely surpassed by Roman artists in fineness of design or execution.

Greece survived and still does so, although that makes you shiver. It is understandable, you control a piece that used to be ours, and you certainly wake up at night sweating because half the forum members tell you about it every single day. You can masturbate with your keyboard all day long trying to deny it, but ideas CANNOT DIE, even though the Greeks themselves supressed what is deemed as Greek today, because it was cherished by few people even at its' best, and it is still cherished by few today. Alas, those few shall always be the best of the worlds' societies, and there is nothing you can do about it except from having nightmares every day about it.

Me? I'm laughing at you fool! Your real enemy is Erdogan and his puppies, and you know it! He shall eradicate you and you shall end up regretting all that you have ever been... You cannot avoid your destiny, your "Kismet"! Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!

Alright fella?

[Petros Houhoulis]

What Dandelion? Truth hurts?

Remember that, before Greek state has been founded, it was belonged to the ottoman empire for about ~400 years. In 1820s, Athens was just a simple Albanian town named "sanjak Arnavut" of Morea. This is attested in Ottoman records, on many ethnic maps drawn in western Europe and in the diaries of the philhellenes who came to Greece after 1830 and in many books published in western Europe around 1830-1850.

Sorry if i hurt your feelings by telling the truth!!! You can keep considering it as 10.000 year old hellenic city tough, np at all.

Morea was the name of the Peloponesse... Athens is normally NOT a part of the Peloponesse... So much for your accuracy!!! You can't even distinguish your head from your butt!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morea


The Morea (Greek: Μωρέας or Μωριάς, French: Morée, Italian: Morea, Turkish: Mora) was the name of the Peloponnese peninsula in southern Greece during the Middle Ages and the early modern period. It also referred to a Byzantine province in the region, known as the Despotate of Morea.

What is the funniest part? The usual claim of your fellow savages in the filthsite (based on a whimsy claim by Fallmerayer) that the name "Morea" comes from the Slavic name for the sea (more) forgetting that:

A) The Slavs were not really a naval people.
B) All of the IndoEuropean renderings of the name (French: Morée, Italian: Morea) belong to non-Slavic people who might have indeed given the name to the land because: They had a naval tradition, They arrived by sea, They had developed chartography and could see that the Peloponesse was an island and so on...

I have grown tired of watching you littering the internet with utter nonsense. Athens as a part of the Peloponesse! Ha!

[Petros Houhoulis]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Ac.oldathens.gif

A view (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_athens#Ottoman_Athens) of the Acropolis of Athens during the Ottoman period, showing the buildings which were removed at the time of independence.

The impressive Athens that we know today was the result of painstaking work during the 19th century by Germans and British. I think that Greece has numerous reasons to be very grateful to people like Lord Elgin, King Othon and Schliemann.

Not really. Do you know how much they loaned us? Or the fact that in the first loan we got only half the money because it was too risky a venture? (Greece was not recognized as independent yet) or how much of the money did the foreign-imposed monarchs spent for their own court instead of creating infrastructure (the champion in that sector was none other than Charilaos Trikoupis who built an enormous railroad network, but also resulted to bankrupty)

As a matter of fact, that very first loan (of which we received half of its' real value) was fully repayed just 2-3 decades ago!!! It was arranged by all of those "Philhellenes" who were even better at squandering other peoples' money than we modern Greeks are...

[Petros Houhoulis]

I said, philhellenes disappointed because of the people in there. They were so into the ancient Greeks with the stories and poetry they read, maybe they were thinking like they will find Adonis, Hercules and Aphrodites in there and disappointed afterwards.

Here is one book from 1850, published in London. A diaries of a British philhellene, who came to Athens right after the independence;

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1367/clipboard03yb.jpg
books.google.com/books?id=9wCiFSLmEM4C

There are many more books like that, written by philhellenes, expressing their disappointment of cannot finding the ancient Greek in their dreams. Many of them came to Greece in 1830s and even tried to analyze people anthropologically if they resemble the ancient Greek statues or not.

Also, it`s stupid to deny Albanian (Arvanite) character of Greece, don't do that.

/Facepalm to you :S

The only problem is that the author of that despicable piece is somebody who believed that the Ancient Greeks were all beautiful, just because their statues were statues of beautiful people. Hang on though, if you see modern magazines, what sort of people do you see? Beautiful or ugly? Beautiful of course! The same goes with the TV and everything else, 9 out of 10 people are gorgeous, but do they represent the average person on the street? Not really. Based upon that, an idiot who equated in his mind (Ancient Greek = pretty people) decided that there are no Greeks left because... Not many people look pretty (and with the poverty of the time even the pretty ones looked like the Afghan girl with the Green eyes in the cover of National goegraphic some decades ago) and since they are not Greek and he saw a few Arvanites around he concluded that the majority are Albanians!!!

Gimme a break fool. There are accurate maps of the early Greek kingdom that show the Arvanites concentrated at the North East of Morea, a few scattered around Attica/Boeotia and a few more in the islands (the latter being the most important in Greek history) and if you ever bothered to see them, you would never utter all of this nonsense. Furthermore, they never identified themselves as Albanians, nor shall they ever do so. They were kicked out of Albanian by their Muslim "brethen" and they want nothing to do with them whatsoever... Trust me on this one...

[Virtuous]

my opinion?

LOL

[Petros Houhoulis]

See the stuff we are not being told about. :)

All of that stuff could be better described as Anatolian. The Turks did not innovate anything of the above, just kept the traditions of the people who lived there before they invaded. There is no scientific contribution from the Ottomans whatsoever, even the Arabs were more productive - we have terms like algebra and zenith/nadir from them for a reason. During the whole Ottoman era there was nothing worthy of mentioning as a serious achievment - unless if you consider a few sweets as important enough to include them in a historical discussion. All forms of science and art that the Ottomans professed were simply copied from the past, and it wasn't even the best part of the past. The Arabs were clever enough to copy Ancient Greek knowledge, the Turks... Didn't even notice they were stepping on it!

[Petros Houhoulis]

There were few good sides to it:

http://www.butrint.org/images/beyond/03/Gjirokastra_Zekate_house.jpg

http://www.starboardhome.net/2002Chronicles/2002%20images/trept102002/02082269.jpg

http://i.images.cdn.fotopedia.com/flickr-2294526159-hd/Budapest/Places_of_Interest/Architecture/Turkish_period_/Mostar_Bridge__Stari_Most__Mostar_Koprusu.jpg

http://odogan.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/bursa_ulu_cami.jpeg

http://www.bishoppeakgroup.net/People%20and%20Cultural%20Experience/Turkey/Turkey_20070910_0237%20water%20pipe%20tea%20800%20 pixels.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Veliahd_Dairesi_Topkapi_Istanbul_2007_panorama.jpg

--Zztr6nhTE

Like any conquering, marauding empire (like the Moors - centuries earlier) it brought death and destruction. We can thank the Ottomans for the fact that the Balkans is such a heathen mess today but didn't the British and French etc. do the same thing in Africa ?

Really? Was Africa any better before the Portuguese and the English, the Spanish and the French stepped in? Can you actually accuse the latter of destroying ANYTHING worth preserving? The most you can get is the destruction of ancient art, solely because they loved it so much they wanted to have a piece of it too - but it doesn't compare at destroying a living people - especially very many living people who all happen to have the worst possible memories of the Turks and their passing.


Like any conquering army they didn't just bring death and destruction. They also left architecture,Copied Byzantine architecture,
new ideas,Never heard of them! Unless if they are about the military
new cuisines,That is something that anybody could do - and has done - Even the Brits have a cuisine nowadays! All they had invented in the kitchen was pancakes until a few decades ago!!!
new artThey didn't stray much beyond Arab tradition and nothing they have done compares to Alhambra for example
. Did you know that the Viennese coffee house dates back to 1683 when the defeated Turkish army left sacks of coffee in their camp that were "liberated" by the Viennese. The rest is history. I know it. Do you know that these beans had been "liberated" from far south, and the traditional serving of cofee was not developed by the Turks themselves?
Did you know that the Kipferl, and the croissant date back to them ? The only difference being that the Turks did not actually create the croissant, their Austrian enemies did so and the French ate it to celebrate their victory upon them!
We can go on: look at the bathhouses of Hungary. Like any empire it did leave an imprint on the countries it conquered and then on the rest of us.

Of course every empire left an imprint, no doubt about it. The best imprints have been left by democracies though... Just a reminder.


We can be very glad that they were kicked out of Europe. But don't say they didn't have both a negative and a positive legacy. Historical accuracy should never be overridden by .. hah a kind of political correctness.

In any case, the Turks cannot possibly be declared as originators of great ideas. A U.S. American historian went as far as declaring 10 original cultures in the world. The Netherlands was included in them, The Turks weren't. My favourite painters include Escher and Ocampo, there are no Turks even in the candidates' list yet...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Russians cannot resolve the problem, Russians can just anihilate Chechnya (about 1/2 of a hours of work). Russians will never control Chechnya. And all Caucasus (from my personal experience).

Oh, its not just your personal experience. It was back all the way to Prometheus who was "chained in the Caucasus". This has been the best expanation of these peoples' fate since ever. They are "chained" in the Caucasus, a primitive area which cannot be developed because of its' altitude, but still they are free to roam. They have always been troublesome, this myth has never been disproven, and the eagle still eats his liver, although it is hard to say whether the Eagle is the Russian meta-Empire or their own savage ways. I guess it is both...

[Supreme American]

Glad it's gone. :)

[o__o]

Negative

[Böri]

Positive as long as it was progressing, expanding (until 1520s) then negative until the rise of Young Turks in the very end, 1890s. In between was a chaos and multi ethnic, regressive system. Beside there are people who blame Atatürk or Turkish nationalists for the destruction of the empire, which is just crazy. Here the answers.


Non-Türk Islamists often blame Atatürk a lot because they think he destroyed the element which United ethnics (Kurds, Georgians, Çerkez, Alboetc) people with Türks, referring to Caliphate and sharia state. According to these people it's also Atatürk who destroyed the empire. It's a crazy intellectual backward situation. Ottoman Empire was already completely destroyed, degenerated, backward, bankrupt. All non-Muzzie ethnics rebelled. Of the Muslims, Albanians and Arabs openly rebelled and separated. Kurds and esp. Circassians also had some activities. In an environment like this, The Anglo-Saxon Imperialism told Turks clearly to either accept Lausanne or Türks as nation will be wiped from earth's face (England+France takes West Turkey, and east Turkey for Soviets). Atatürk simply did the best, he served the nation at a critical time. Someone must explain to Islamists that their ethnik brothers in religion were backstabbing the Turkish forces, from behind Turkish lines during the Greek-Turkish war.
These ethnic Muzzie people never talk how ethnik Muzzie Ottoman subject contributed to the destruction of the empire (Arab,Kurd, Circassian, Albanian etc). They try to hide these facts and just attack Turkish Nationalists who created a modern Turkish nation state, republic. I think they are jaleous that Turks emphasize ethnicity so they call Turks to just identify as Muslim like in the past centuries. IMO That won't happen though. In its basic core Neo-Ottomanism is simply ethnik people asking Turks to share what belongs to Türks with them. The question is: why should Turks do it? We don't want Arab Mosul, Georgian Batum, Aegen islands now populated by Rums at 100%.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?193624-Turkish-President-Erdogan-East-Aegean-Islands-Belong-to-Turkey!

[Hoxhaism]

negative, it was centuries behind compared to the rest of europe and it is one of the factors on why albania is so poor to this day.

[glass]

Positive as long as it was progressing, expanding (until 1520s) then negative until the rise of Young Turks in the very end, 1890s. In between was a chaos and multi ethnic, regressive system.
Ottoman Empire was build around conquest, pillaging and looting. It was also absolute monarchy. So this empire required permanent expansion and capable leader. But court in absolute monarchies wants "weak" ruler, that is easily manipulated. So court can have everything behind weak monarch. So it was nobody else but Suleiman Magnificient himself (considired greatest sultan), who killed his capable and popular son and let other "weak" son inherit the throne. Then even weaker sultan followed and so on. Expansion stopped, instability, corruption and degradation increased. IT has nothing to do with non turks, minorites or things like that. It was just one of many middle eastern Empire, which grew to big (because of several capable sultans in a row) to fall to other capable conqueror. Usually middle eastern empires had only 1 capable ruler, founder himself:rolleyes:

[Jehan]

Very negative.
The only good aspect in it, was the possibility of social evolution. In ottoman empire it was possible and far more simple for a man to improve his social statut than in the european society.
This explain the defection from europeans who choose the ottoman empire.