Slavic settlements in Frisia, England and Scandinavia

[Hors]

Средневековый Утрехтский летописец сообщает, что лютичи-вильты поддерживали тесный союз с фризами и саксами, имели колонии в голландских землях – города Вильтбург и Славенбург. В окрестностях этих городов до xix века сохранялось немало славянских названий – Воденице, Бела, Камнь, Свята и т.д.. Больше того, Утрехтский летописец сообщает, что лютичи вместе с саксами ходили на Британию еще со времен Хенгиста и Хорсы, с v века, и основали там город Вильтон и графство Вильтшир. Про те времена что-либо сказать трудно, но в viii-xi веках лютичи не раз тревожили Англию набегами. Англы хорошо запомнили имя славянского Бога разрушения и мести – Чернобога, хоть и слегка переиначили его. Помните, у Вальтера Скотта, в «Айвенго», безумная старуха со стен горящего замка кричит: «Ревет Зернебок!»? А вот ещё один малопопулярный факт -- ещё в позапрошлом веке в Англии были найдены славянские погребения.

Подтверждает факт славянского присутствия в скандинавских землях и археология, причем именно там, где говорит о нем «Тидрек сага». Необязательно все они принадлежат лютичам. Как самые свирепые пираты, славились в еще помнившей викингов Балтике xi века вагры -- ободриты (последние отличились и на суше – в 1010 году князь Местивой предпринял конный поход… в северную Италию) и руги с острова Рюген. Об этих последних подробный рассказ впереди. Вагры же постоянно терзали скандинавские земли набегами, превратив их в род спорта. Грозные датские викинги, обложившие англичан вошедшей в поговорку данью, штурмовавшие Париж, соседям-варягам ни малейшего страха или хотя бы почтения не внушали. В iХ веке датские короли попытались огородить свой полуостров огромной стеной, так называемым Славянским валом. Помогло лишь отчасти. Варяги на десятках легких судов проникали в многочисленные проливы между Датскими островами и, возникая ниоткуда, обрушивались на города и селения. Более того, они стали сами селиться на них. Кольцевые укрепления на острове Лоланд считаются славянскими, как и крепость близ Соре в центре Зеландии, где найдена очень архаичная славянская керамика. Абсолютное большинство датских кладов содержит славянские вещи и даже зарыто в славянской посуде. Сохранилось множество славянских названий: Крамнице, Корзелице, Тиллице и Биннице (вот оно, новгородско-ободритское «цоканье». А названия очень похожи на новгородские Зимятицы, Глобицы, Гостилицы).
Несколько славянских колоний обнаружено на Сконе и на острове Эланд у берегов Швеции. О стоявших там славянских дружинах говорит Саксон Грамматик, «Сага о Книтлингах» и археология. Крепость Экеторп на Эланде – типичное ободритское кольцевое укрепление. Здесь следует заметить, что большинство названий крепостей – позднейшие, данные уже руинам местными жителями.

Знаменитые «лагеря викингов» – Аггерсборг, Треллеборг, Фюркат – выстроены по плану славянских укреплений Средней Европы, и в них находят славянскую керамику. Лишь наша привычка заставляет видеть в ватагах викингов исключительно природных скандинавов. Что до материальной культуры – мы в эту эпоху не можем уверенно судить о том, кто сделал ту или иную вещь. В Венделе, у колыбели скандинавского ремесла, стояли пришельцы с юга Балтики. Затем уже ремесло шведов и датчан оказывало влияние на вендов. Различия шли на уровне этнографических тонкостей, зачастую не оставлявших археологических следов (прическа, татуировки вендов и русов и отсутствие таковых у норманнов).

[Treffie]

Shame, I was looking forward to reading that. My grasp of the Russian language is virtually non-existent. :mad:

[Hors]

Try an on-line translator, if interested. You'll get the gist.

[Vulpix]

http://translate.google.com/

[Treffie]

I got the gist, thanks for the article! :thumb001:

[Holtlander]

I never heard about any Slavic settlements in England or Frisia, the fact that this text is in Russian doesnt realy make it reliable as i cant find anything in Dutch or Frisian about it, same goes for English.

Sounds like a story from a soviet history book to me.

[Maelstrom]

Where is the article from, Hors?

[Hors]

the fact that this text is in Russian doesnt realy make it reliable

LOL

No comment



as i cant find anything in Dutch or Frisian about it, same goes for English.

There are scientific sources in German, Scandinavian and Polish languages on the subject.

More than that, the part about Slavic character of the settlements mentioned in the text can be verified even by a layman from the very form of those settlements, which is roundish, typical for Slavs and un-typical for Germanics.

[Hors]

Where is the article from, Hors?

It's a quote from a book about history of Slavs and Russians in the Baltic region.

A part of this quote, about Slavic settlements in Scandinavia, is 100% reliable.

By the way, what's about Wiltburg and Slavenburg, as well as Wodenitze, Bela, Kamn and Svyata in the Netherlands? and Wilton/Wiltshire in England?

[The Lawspeaker]

Slavic settlements in Frisia, England and Scandinavia Too bad I can't read Russian and the translator won't work. So-- what is this article ? A mere attempt to "justify" future Russian claims in Western Europe ?
In the same fashion as Hitler tried to show the kinship between the Germans and the Tibetans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_German_expedition_to_Tibet) ?

[Hors]

Can't you be a bit useful? What's about Wodenitze, Bela, Kamn and Svyata?

It seems that Utrecht's original name was Wiltburg... but what's about Slavenburg?

[The Lawspeaker]

Can't you be a bit useful? What's about Wodenitze, Bela, Kamn and Svyata?

It seems that Utrecht's original name was Wiltburg... but what's about Slavenburg?
I am quite sure that the Wilten were a Germanic or Celtic tribe as the furthest ANY Slavic tribe came was not much further then Berlin.
Second Slavenburg (if you try to throw it on my country- I found that there is something in Germany) is not the name of a place- it's a family name. The rest of the names that you mention have nothing to do with my country or are even on Google.

[Holtlander]

Can't you be a bit useful? What's about Wodenitze, Bela, Kamn and Svyata?

It seems that Utrecht's original name was Wiltburg... but what's about Slavenburg?

Ok like Tristan said Slavenburg is a familly, Wiltburg was named after de Wilti the people who later were called the Frisians...Wodenitze doesnt excist here, Bela is a village/town in Portugal, Kamn doesnt excist and Svyata with a slight change in the spelling is a town in Poland.

Any more questions? seriously i would throw away the soviet books man...

[Hors]

I am quite sure that the Wilten were a Germanic or Celtic tribe

:D

http://www.archive.org/stream/slaviclatinilche00abel/slaviclatinilche00abel_djvu.txt

we find remnants of
Slavonic speech lingering in localities not very far
distant from this ancient seat of learning. These
relics of a remote linguistic past, it is true, consist
only in a few geographical names : Wilton, Wilt-
shire, Wily. According to early tradition, handed
down in Beda's History and vaguely alluded to by
Venantius Fortunatus and other chroniclers, the
Viltsi, a Slavonic tribe in ancient Pomerania and
Brandenburg — the name of Vilt, Wind, Wend
formerly applied to many western Slavs — sent
colonies from the mouth of the Oder to Holland
and England in the fourth and fifth centuries.

In England these emigrants from the neighbourhood
of Berlin probably founded the town of Wilton ;
as regards Holland, it seems certain that they
occupied Utrecht, the Ulterius Trajectum of the
Romans, then called Wiltaburg.

[Holtlander]

sent
colonies from the mouth of the Oder to Holland
and England in the fourth and fifth centuries

Sorry mate, the Romans left here about the year 270 and after that there werent any people that lived in the area untill the Franks and Frisians took it

[The Lawspeaker]

Het lijkt erop dat de noordelijke Nederlanden in deze tijd grotendeels ontvolkt raakten, en ook in Utrecht is geen bewijs voor bewoningscontinuïteitSays enough, unfortunately that the sources are books that I don't have here but the translation speaks for itself:

It seems that the Northern Netherlands in those days were largely depopulated and also in Utrecht there is no evidence of a continued population.

I just took wiki for this one but the sources will be published here by me:



↑ (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschiedenis_van_de_stad_Utrecht#cite_ref-12) C. van Rooijen, Continue discontinuïteit, blz. 5- 34
↑ (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschiedenis_van_de_stad_Utrecht#cite_ref-13) T. Hoekstra, blz. 186- 188

[Holtlander]

I still want to know where you got the article from Hors? who wrote it, where did it get published? the original link?

[Vargtand]

Interesting I'll take a look at this, I don’t know why people seem to disregard this as propaganda or what ever.. to be honest people are known to move around :P or is this not true for the Slavic people?

[Sarmata]

Something with Slavs in the West and the North could be true, read this:

http://wolnapolska.boom.ru/index-Wyzdraw.html

And do you remember Wendols from "13th Warrior"? ARGHRRRRRR!!!!!:D

[Holtlander]

Interesting I'll take a look at this, I don’t know why people seem to disregard this as propaganda or what ever.. to be honest people are known to move around :P or is this not true for the Slavic people?

Because its simply not true, and i dont like it when people tell lies about my country..Celtic settlements in the Netherlands yes..Slavic not at all.

And if you look at our posts all the names written down by him dont have anything to do with the Slavs, Wiltenburg got named after the Wilti wich were the Frisians, Frisians were known to travel with the Saxons to England wich is probably why you can find the name Wilton there.

And people should remember that names given to areas and tribes at that time were given to them by the Romans, not every country and tribe that has something with Wal in it is related to eachother, same goes for Wilt.

You can find this in every history book, you can find his story well...probably only in Russia? That's why i would like to see a link to the writer/book/article.

[The Lawspeaker]

Good. Now here are a couple of questions- nr.1 : why would such an important detail not be taken into our history books ?
Question number 2: The Utrecht-area happens to be one of the most archaeologically excavated areas in our incredibly archaeologically excavated country-- where are there NO TRACES WHATSOEVER ??

[Hors]

Sorry mate, the Romans left here about the year 270 and after that there werent any people that lived in the area untill the Franks and Frisians took it

How is it relevant to the subject?

[Holtlander]

How is it relevant to the subject?

I had to thank you for that post this shows you dont know what your talking about...you gave timelines, i gave timelines that show they werent here at that time.

Like i said burn your soviet books, you still didnt post any link to it so i will see this as an troll attempt.

[Hors]

Because its simply not true, and i dont like it when people tell lies about my country..Celtic settlements in the Netherlands yes..Slavic not at all.

You're simply in denial.


And if you look at our posts all the names written down by him dont have anything to do with the Slavs, Wiltenburg got named after the Wilti wich were the Frisians, Frisians were known to travel with the Saxons to England wich is probably why you can find the name Wilton there.


An Inet query produce sources showing unambigious association of Wilti with Slavs, and nothing about them being Frisians or whatever else

http://www.google.ru/search?hl=ru&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aru%3Aofficial&hs=HPz&newwindow=1&q=Wilti+tribe&btnG=%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA&lr=&aq=f&oq=

[Hors]

I had to thank you for that post this shows you dont know what your talking about...you gave timelines,

really?



i gave timelines that show they werent here at that time.

REALLY?

Don't take it as an offence, but it sounds like something coming from a complete cretin. LMAO

Maybe you should elaborate or clarify...

[Hors]

Here's the link

http://rodina.lv/docman/literatura/zanimatelnaya-istoriya-latviyskih-russkih-/download.html

[Holtlander]

They only talk about the Wilti as neighbours of the western slavs, in Hannover still nothing about the Netherlands, also in the texts they state that the Slavs only whent as far as the Main.

In our language the Wenden are the Slavs where you are talking about the Wilten are the ones that lived in the area of Utrecht wich were Frisians,

You said that in about the 4th-5th century the slavs came over and settled the area, but the only findings there from that time are Frankish and Frisian, also the Frisians build the castle wich was named Wiltenburg(orginally Uiltaburg), not Slavs.

Before that there was an Roman settlement with Batavii living in it, wich they left in 270.

[Hors]

The descendants of the isolated Slavonic settlers near Utrecht... have also long been absorbed. The ethnological evidence concerning the present inhabitants of these districts and survival of their old place-names, however, supports the statement of the early chroniclers concerning the immigration of Slavs into what is now Holland.

~from Origin of the Anglo-Saxon Race

http://books.google.ru/books?id=tDSsxref4C8C&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=Wilti+Frisians&source=bl&ots=wE3SAMwbiU&sig=rCwVVU0Tt4tFR4q08dj6fk9hGnI&hl=ru&ei=GOvQSf6PK8uAsAaymKW7CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPA89,M1

[Jamt]

Slavs settled in Sweden in late Iron-Age.

It is seen in material shifts in pottery and I believe in the emergence of the Scandinavian log-house tradition.

Mats Roslund is a good source on the Slavic material influence: “Gäster i huset. Kulturell överföring mellan slaver och skandinaver 900 till 1300” http://www.ark.lu.se/o.o.i.s?id=8663&sid=115&lang=se

In English

http://www.brill.nl/product_id17282.htm

[Hors]

So is Tristan (or any of his cronies) going to post ANY evidence that Wilti were NOT Slavic?

[Hors]

Tristan let me know via PM that he cowardly abandons the topic, thus admiting that he was a stupid troll :D

[Osweo]

I'll come back to this another time.

I've read straightforward explanations of the name Wilton (and therefore Wiltshire) but don't remember them right now. The odd group of 'fellow travellers' accompanying Germanic allies hither and thither isn't too unbelievable, but these specific cases don't seem at first glance particularly watertight.

Coincidence makes fascinating things, occasionally. Reminds me of Finns saying that their Kven subtribe are responsible for Old English Cwensburigs etc. Just amusing curiosities, that's all.

Did you mean to link to 'A History of the Russians in Latvia', Hors, or was that a mistake?

[Lahtari]

Coincidence makes fascinating things, occasionally. Reminds me of Finns saying that their Kven subtribe are responsible for Old English Cwensburigs etc. Just amusing curiosities, that's all.

That was actually speculation by some English author, from an old book called "History of the Anglo-Saxon Race" (or something like that).

Human language has a limited set of consonants and vowels, so coincidences are bound to happen.

[Jamt]

Slavs settled in Sweden in late Iron-Age.

It is seen in material shifts in pottery and I believe in the emergence of the Scandinavian log-house tradition.

Mats Roslund is a good source on the Slavic material influence: “Gäster i huset. Kulturell överföring mellan slaver och skandinaver 900 till 1300” http://www.ark.lu.se/o.o.i.s?id=8663&sid=115&lang=se

In English

http://www.brill.nl/product_id17282.htm


Maybe the word settled are too liberal. Archeological finds shows that these settlers were guests in Svealand and Götaland farmsteads and not settler on their own. Moreover the manufacturing of pottery was regaled to the women of the lowest social standing and the clearest signs of Slavic in Scandinavia in the late Iron-Age are just pottery. In other words the material culture is of Slavic slaves to Scandinavians.

[Hors]

Slavs settled in Sweden in late Iron-Age.

It is seen in material shifts in pottery and I believe in the emergence of the Scandinavian log-house tradition.

Where Scandinavians lived before that? In dug-outs?

[Loyalist]

I believe the Netherlands should do everything to restore the original Slavic population. After all, Slavs have settled the region long before Frisians...

First of all, Utrecht should be returned its original name - Wiltograd! and proclaimed the Slavic capital of Holland.


Okey guys, as you have nothing to disprove Slavic origin of Wilti, keep jerking off each other, if it makes you content :D


Tristan let me know via PM that he cowardly abandons the topic, thus admiting that he was a stupid troll :D


Where Scandinavians lived before that? In dug-outs?

Etc.

:disapproving

http://i40.tinypic.com/nh1dfk.jpg

[Hors]

Is it depiction of Tristan above? Hmmm, I thought he was bigger and not that fluffy... :D

[Jamt]

:D
Where Scandinavians lived before that? In dug-outs?

[Hors]

http://ay-avebury.soton.ac.uk/Prospectus/CMA/HistShip/SHLECT63.HTM


Dugouts are plentiful in Scandinavian archaeology and were clearly used well back into the remote past

Looks like it were Slavs who has brought civilization to Scandinavian savages...

[Jamt]

http://ay-avebury.soton.ac.uk/Prospectus/CMA/HistShip/SHLECT63.HTM



Looks like it were Slavs who has brought civilization to Scandinavian savages...

Dug-outs were not living-quarters you idiot. And log-house technique, we got from West-Slavs, just as you did.

[Jarl]

I am quite sure that the Wilten were a Germanic or Celtic tribe as the furthest ANY Slavic tribe came was not much further then Berlin.
Second Slavenburg (if you try to throw it on my country- I found that there is something in Germany) is not the name of a place- it's a family name. The rest of the names that you mention have nothing to do with my country or are even on Google.



Well... I am afraid you are incorrect. Slavs reached once as far as Jutland, Hamburg and Limes Saxoniae. Wagria was westernmost Slavic tribal territory, inhabited by a subgroup of the Obodrites. Niklot - Slavic duke of the Obodrites and his sons adopted Christianity and, now subjects to the Emperor, inherited Mecklenburg as their fief. They are direct ancestors of the ducal house of Mecklenburg-Sterlitz. A few helpful links:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polabian_Slavs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obotrites


Obodrites and Veleti (or "Wilcy" = Wolves) came to what is now Mecklenburg and Vorpommern from Wielkopolska (Grosspolen) in VI and VII centuries. They were Lechitic tribes closely related to Polish tribes represented by the Sukow-Szeligi culture (Polans, Goplans and Masovians/Mazurians). C.S. Coon writing about the island of Fehmarn, mentioned ancient Slavonic types which managed to survive there, fairly unmixed.

However, there is no direct evidence for Slavic settlements in Scandinavia, although abundant Slavic ceramics of the Sukow, Menkendorf and Feldberg types have been found in early medieval Scandinavian settlements, suggesting, at least, extensive trade between Polabians, Swedes and Danes.

Last Polabian Slavs were germanised in XVIII - XIX century:


The Drevani (German: Draväno-polaben or Drevanen) were a tribe of Polabian Slavs inhabiting Lüchow-Dannenberg. They were a constituent tribe of the Obodrite confederacy. In the 9th century they was conquered by Saxons. The territory where the Drevani lived is also known as the Lüneburger Heide or Wendland and situated south of Hamburg. The language died out in the 19th century.

Drevani inhabited Wendland, on the left band of the Elbe.

[Jarl]

Dug-outs were not living-quarters you idiot. And log-house technique, we got from West-Slavs, just as you did.

Could you elaborate on this? What kind of architecture you meant by "log-house"? I am quite certain it is so called "zrebowy dom", with walls constructed using whole logs stuck one on another, like here:

http://www.grodziskodolne.pl/img/dom1.jpg

This was the characteristic lechitic type of housing common only in the Sukow-Szeligi culture. Almost all remaining cultures of early Slavs used semi-dug outs or pole-construction.

[Osweo]

I've read straightforward explanations of the name Wilton (and therefore Wiltshire) but don't remember them right now.

AH, Eilert Ekwall (of Sweden), Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names:

Wiltshire.
Wiltunscir 870.
'Shire dependent on Wilton.' The Wiltshire people are referred to as Wilssaetan 800, 878.

(THAT last form conclusively shows that they were named after a geographical feature. Were 'Wiltsy' to have been an ethnonym, or a tribelet, the suffix saet would not have been employed.)

Wilton.
Uuiltun 838, Wiltun 854, Wiltune 1086, etc.
'TUN on River Wylye', here in a shorter form Wil.

Wylye or Wiley.
Wileo 688, Guilou 894, Wilig 901, Wyly 1268.
A British rivewr-name identical with GWILI in Wales. The name is probably derived from the obsolete Welsh gwil that occurs in several compounds and seems to mean 'trick' or the like. The word is cognate with OE wil, ON vel 'trick'. The name means 'tricky river', i.e. one liable to floods or the like.

:)

As for the Slavonic name, R. A. Ageeva says;
Several western tribes were very brave and were named Viltsy or Lyutiche. It is not for nothing that the word Lyutich in Russian dialects means an 'evildoer' or 'barbarian'. The Lyutichi won much glory against the Danes and their second name Velety, Volotye became legendary - Ukrainian Veleten', Velet, Belorussian and Russian Volot = 'giant', 'warrior'.

[Sarmata]

AH, Eilert Ekwall (of Sweden), Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names:

Wiltshire.
Wiltunscir 870.
'Shire dependent on Wilton.' The Wiltshire people are referred to as Wilssaetan 800, 878.

(THAT last form conclusively shows that they were named after a geographical feature. Were 'Wiltsy' to have been an ethnonym, or a tribelet, the suffix saet would not have been employed.)

Wilton.
Uuiltun 838, Wiltun 854, Wiltune 1086, etc.
'TUN on River Wylye', here in a shorter form Wil.

Wylye or Wiley.
Wileo 688, Guilou 894, Wilig 901, Wyly 1268.
A British rivewr-name identical with GWILI in Wales. The name is probably derived from the obsolete Welsh gwil that occurs in several compounds and seems to mean 'trick' or the like. The word is cognate with OE wil, ON vel 'trick'. The name means 'tricky river', i.e. one liable to floods or the like.

:)

As for the Slavonic name, R. A. Ageeva says;
Several western tribes were very brave and were named Viltsy or Lyutiche. It is not for nothing that the word Lyutich in Russian dialects means an 'evildoer' or 'barbarian'. The Lyutichi won much glory against the Danes and their second name Velety, Volotye became legendary - Ukrainian Veleten', Velet, Belorussian and Russian Volot = 'giant', 'warrior'.

Yes those people earned respect in their nightbourers...Wieleci/Wilcy(Wolfs)/Lucice(what means "Srodzy"-Severes) fought against Germans,Danes and even against different Slavic people like Obodrzyce and... Poles.

[Osweo]

More than that, the part about Slavic character of the settlements mentioned in the text can be verified even by a layman from the very form of those settlements, which is roundish, typical for Slavs and un-typical for Germanics.
Speaking of which, please see here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=40591#post40591

By the way, what's about Wiltburg and Slavenburg, as well as Wodenitze, Bela, Kamn and Svyata in the Netherlands? and Wilton/Wiltshire in England?
I can't comment on Dutch examples. We would need a Dutch speaking member to look up the places in their national equivalent of the dictionary I used. Is that possible, Tristan, anybody?

As for the English example, it is conclusively ruled out in my last post.
The element is Wil, not Wilt or Wilts, the T being part of tun, which has been 'ironed out' in the county name, formerly Wiltunscir, and the typology of the word doesn't suggest an ethnonym of any kind.

I bet the Dutch ones could be ruled out as easily.

:D
According to early tradition, handed
down in Beda's History and vaguely alluded to by
Venantius Fortunatus and other chroniclers, ...[/B].
I know Bede VERY well, I used to visit his grave regularly when at university, even! He says NOTHING about this. :(

it seems certain that they
occupied Utrecht, the Ulterius Trajectum of the
Romans, then called Wiltaburg[/COLOR][/B].
Sensible scholars never talk like this.

[Hors]

As for the English example, it is conclusively ruled out in my last post.

Are you a Trotzkist? :D

You ruled out nothing, lest of it conclusively.


Sensible scholars never talk like this.

You aren't one, so how could you possibly know it?

[Osweo]

Are you a Trotzkist? :D
I actually resemble him in some lights, but no.... :tongue

You ruled out nothing, lest of it conclusively.
Yawn, yeschyo raz, osobenno dlya tebya:

The ONLY thing the proponents of a 'Slavic colonists' in Dark Age Britain have as 'evidence' is the name 'Wiltshire' which has a resemblance to that of the Wiltsy of Pomerania.

Wiltshire is first recorded as WILTUNscir.

Tun is what it seems - ton, town, village.

Wil could be anything. But it already looks less like Wiltsy.

AND AH! Reka takaya est, ryadom s poselkom, po imeni Wylye. Morfologicheski the same as Welsh Gwili. An old written form even has an initial G. Case closed.


You aren't one, so how could you possibly know it?
They are rare, I admit.

But don't be a dick, Xopc.

[Hors]

The ONLY thing the proponents of a 'Slavic colonists' in Dark Age Britain have as 'evidence' is the name 'Wiltshire' which has a resemblance to that of the Wiltsy of Pomerania.

Not "ONLY", of course.

Don't you be a dick. When it comes to ethnonym, nothing could be ruled out, lest of all conclusively.

[Osweo]

Not "ONLY", of course.

Don't you be a dick. When it comes to ethnonym, nothing could be ruled out, lest of all conclusively.
Nothing INTERNAL to the name, but MUCH in how such names were treated in the language in question.

Place-names in Old English that derive from an ethnonym usually take the form IN + dative plural.

FOr example, we have modern Ripon and Jarrow. In 741 it was written IN HRYPUM and IN GYRUUM. The tribelets in question were the (nominative plural) Hrype and Gyrwe. (Fascinating, isn't it, how the English case system was once so similar to Russian? - *XPbInAM :tongue)

If we hypothesise a group called the *Wiltse, you'd get *In Wiltsum, not Wilton.

Alternatively (though it would be rare so far west as Wiltshire) you might get *Wiltsingas.

[Jarl]

This is the paper I was referring to - there are traces of trade and perhaps also small groups of settlers:

http://www.uppakra.se/docs/uppakra7/13_Brorsson_U7.pdf


The Slavonic pottery in Scania consists of partly imported vessels but also locally made ones. These vessels probably belonged to the Slavonic family’s inventory, where every vessel had its given function, and was replaced if broken, whether this happened at Wolin, Oldenburg or Åhus. Investigations of exclusive jewellery and different types of graves have for decades dominated the search for contacts across the Baltic Sea during the Viking Age. Detailed investigations of the pottery show that this artefact can contribute facts about the complex relations between different culture groups in the Baltic Sea region.

[Jamt]

Could you elaborate on this? What kind of architecture you meant by "log-house"? I am quite certain it is so called "zrebowy dom", with walls constructed using whole logs stuck one on another, like here:

http://www.grodziskodolne.pl/img/dom1.jpg

This was the characteristic lechitic type of housing common only in the Sukow-Szeligi culture. Almost all remaining cultures of early Slavs used semi-dug outs or pole-construction.

Same as in the picture Jarl.

The Swedish log-house or lafting tradition started in Sigtuna in the first half of the 11th century and then spread rapidly in central and north Sweden. The technique were used in part of Danevirke and in a well construction or two during the Viking age in Scandinavia but was not part of the house building tradition until Sigtuna (and Oslo and Tromsö, starting at the same time).

From ca 700 e. Kr. houses and forts were lafted on the Baltic east-coast in today’s Poland, the Baltic’s and Russia and bit later in Ladoga and Novgorod. Wladyslaw Duczko, archaeologist in Uppsala believes that the west-Slavs are an important transmitter for the Scandinavian tradition.

[Jarl]

Same as in the picture Jarl.

The Swedish log-house or lafting tradition started in Sigtuna in the first half of the 11th century and then spread rapidly in central and north Sweden. The technique were used in part of Danevirke and in a well construction or two during the Viking age in Scandinavia but was not part of the house building tradition until Sigtuna (and Oslo and Tromsö, starting at the same time).

From ca 700 e. Kr. houses and forts were lafted on the Baltic east-coast in today’s Poland, the Baltic’s and Russia and bit later in Ladoga and Novgorod. Wladyslaw Duczko, archaeologist in Uppsala believes that the west-Slavs are an important transmitter for the Scandinavian tradition.

Thanks!


Both Balts and Slavs were known for building wooden forts or earthworks at unstable times or as means of defence against nomadic steppe tribes.

20-30 years ago it was assumed that Slavs originated from Zarubintsy-Kiev cultures (the so called Godlowski hypothesis). However, in the past 10 year new archeological evidence concerning the Przeworsk and Zarunbintsy cultures instigated a new debate. There is some evidence which might suggest origins in the Pommeranian culture. Late Przeworsk settlements survive as far as VII century AD in Grosspoles. On the same area the lechitic Sukow-Szeligi culture forms in late V early VI century, expanding into Vorpommern. The material culture of late Przeworsk and Sukow-Szeligi is very similar and many modern scholars suggest some form of continuity. Also other Slavic cultures like Feldberg and Tornow, closely resemble cultures from Poland in antiquity. There are striking differencec between these cultures and the larges Slavic culture of Prague-Korchak. At the same time, Ukrainian and Russian scholars (Siedow, Tretiakow, Baran, Pobol, Oblomski, Terpilovski and many others) established in the past 20 years that Kiev culture descends directly from Zarubintsy, while Zarubintsy from the Pommeranian. This is also supported by some Lithuanian scholars (like Petrauskas and Gimbutas).

Now... it might be possible that Slavic-Scandinavian contacts reach as far as antiquity and arrival of Goths, Vandals, Gepids in Pomerania, and the Chernyakov culture. In any case, contacts between Scandinavia and Pomeranian Slavs have always been intense. Apparently, whole Southern coast of Baltic, from Jutland to Truso was littered with Scandinavian emporia, so it is not astonishing that some Slavs could settle in Scania or some other place. Also Danish and Obodrite elites intermarried. Harald Bluetooth forged an anti-Saxon alliance with the duke of the Obodrites, marrying his daughter.

Few more links:

http://www.uppakra.se/docs/uppakra7/19_Helgess_U7.pdf
http://viking.hgo.se/Newsletter/NEWS5.pdf

It is worth noting that the firth king of Poland, Boleslaw I the Brave (967 – 1025) was called "Rex Gothorum et Polonarum"... most likely a distant reflection of former the Gothic-Venedic coexistence.


Anyway, I doubt there has existed any community of Slavs in Frisia. Apart from Obodrite raids, I know nothing about any special Slavic-Frisian connections. The accounts of Danish and Slavic raids on Frisian settlements are in the chronicles of Helmond and Widukind.

[Sarmata]

Thanks!


Both Balts and Slavs were known for building wooden forts or earthworks at unstable times or as means of defence against nomadic steppe tribes.

20-30 years ago it was assumed that Slavs originated from Zarubintsy-Kiev cultures (the so called Godlowski hypothesis). However, in the past 10 year new archeological evidence concerning the Przeworsk and Zarunbintsy cultures instigated a new debate. There is some evidence which might suggest origins in the Pommeranian culture. Late Przeworsk settlements survive as far as VII century AD in Grosspoles. On the same area the lechitic Sukow-Szeligi culture forms in late V early VI century, expanding into Vorpommern. The material culture of late Przeworsk and Sukow-Szeligi is very similar and many modern scholars suggest some form of continuity. Also other Slavic cultures like Feldberg and Tornow, closely resemble cultures from Poland in antiquity. There are striking differencec between these cultures and the larges Slavic culture of Prague-Korchak. At the same time, Ukrainian and Russian scholars (Siedow, Tretiakow, Baran, Pobol, Oblomski, Terpilovski and many others) established in the past 20 years that Kiev culture descends directly from Zarubintsy, while Zarubintsy from the Pommeranian. This is also supported by some Lithuanian scholars (like Petrauskas and Gimbutas).

Now... it might be possible that Slavic-Scandinavian contacts reach as far as antiquity and arrival of Goths, Vandals, Gepids in Pomerania, and the Chernyakov culture. In any case, contacts between Scandinavia and Pomeranian Slavs have always been intense. Apparently, whole Southern coast of Baltic, from Jutland to Truso was littered with Scandinavian emporia, so it is not astonishing that some Slavs could settle in Scania or some other place. Also Danish and Obodrite elites intermarried. Harald Bluetooth forged an anti-Saxon alliance with the duke of the Obodrites, marrying his daughter.

Few more links:

http://www.uppakra.se/docs/uppakra7/19_Helgess_U7.pdf
http://viking.hgo.se/Newsletter/NEWS5.pdf

It is worth noting that the firth king of Poland, Boleslaw I the Brave (967 – 1025) was called "Rex Gothorum et Polonarum"... most likely a distant reflection of former the Gothic-Venedic coexistence.


First king of Poland Bolesław The Great (Chrobry), rather;). Some sources identified him with Bursleif from sagas...Gothic-Venedic coexistence:confused: bit controversial maybe rather Gothic-Vandalic?...Probably some old monk read once about Goths in Poland territorrys(after Poland even existed ofcourse). Poor brother didn't read(cause no one even wrote) about brave people from North Eastern European swamps...But you're rather autochtonist right?

[johngaunt]

I knew Karl Pilkington looked Polish.

[Johnston]

The Goths and Vandals were responsible for any Slavic heritage in Scandinavia because of their Baltic location, on the amber trail.