Are Mormons Christians?

[Loki]

Can Mormonism be described as a branch of Christianity, or is it something entirely different? Thread inspired by the discussion about Mormon temples in the geo quiz thread.

My view is yes. The reason for is, is that their Articles of Faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Faith_(Latter_Day_Saints)) are all Biblical, or Biblical inspired ... except the inclusion of the Book of Mormon as a holy book. Their very name is also very Christian -- Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

I know that mainstream Christianity considers Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses to be fringe movements, or sects. But if you think about it, all Christian groupings are by definition sects of Christian doctrine, including all Protestant and Catholic groups/rites. I am looking from the point of view of an atheist, an outsider.

[Psychonaut]

Given that their devotion is to Jesus Christ, then yes, I think we can call them Christian in a very broad sense. They're just as Christian as any of the "heretical cults" that were abound in the early years of the church (i.e. Cathars, Arians, Manichaeism, etc.). They're a bit more on the Gnostic side of the pendulum since they actually admit that Jehova has a wife, but certainly within the same general heading as the other early Christian variants.

[Aliandrin]

I voted ves but seeing as how I generally aver that Christians are just Jews+Vol.2, and Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are the same religion, you can pretty much discount my vote on those grounds.

They worship Christ? Then they're Christian. Are they much more different in practice than most other Christians? Probably. It's like having a family of crows asking if a starling is a Bird. Well, it is. Doesn't make it even remotely the same animal.

[Gooding]

I voted yes as well, with a qualification: The LDS are a nineteenth century variant of Christianity. The whole Restoration business is a nineteenth century construct, but they do worship Jesus Christ as they understand Him which is an alternative understanding that the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches hold. This is what happens when I quit smoking, folks...I start participating in Christian conversations.

[Dresden]

So far I'm the lone "No" vote. I have nothing against Mormons or their religion, but they believe too many non-Biblical things for me to classify them as Christian (polytheism, Eternal Progression). I think they're Christians in the same sense that the Nation Of Islam is Muslim: they've both created their own separate religion that happens to be based on another faith.

[Sally]

I voted no. I have no desire to disparage Mormons, for many of them are upstanding, sincere family-oriented individuals. Truly, some of the most genuine people I've ever known have been Mormons. However, they don't believe that Christ instituted baptism, and they also hold that there is no original sin. Concerning the Trinity, they believe that three gods form one divinity, which is distinctly divergent from traditional Christian teaching.

[Æmeric]

They are Christian but with their own distinct sphere. I wouldn't lump them in with Protestants. Incidently, it is the Conservative Protestant sects (Baptist, Pentacostals, Evangelical Calvinists) that claim Mormons are not Christians.

Oddly enough the Mormons came out of the same social enviroment - early 19th century New England - which gave us the liberal theology that gave rise to Unitarianism among the Yankee elite & in practice (if not in actually church renets) among some of the mainstream Protestant sects in the US such as the Espiscopalians & Congregationalists. The Mormons are much more socially conservative then their contemporay Yankee brethren. A legacy from their Puritan forefathers preserved in the Mountain West?

The Mormons use to not allow Negroes full membership in the Church until the late 70s. It was controversial & a lot of Mormons thought it had to do with political pressure from Jimmy Carter (a Southern Baptist who apparently didn't like Mormons) then with actual divine revelation.

[Loddfafner]

Oddly enough the Mormons came out of the same social enviroment - early 19th century New England - which gave us the liberal theology that gave rise to Unitarianism among the Yankee elite & in practice

Mormonism started in the area around Rochester, New York in what historians call the Burnt-Over District. There was a proliferation of evangelical, utopian, and radical movements including the abolitionists (Frederick Douglass was active there), feminism (Seneca Falls where the suffrage movement kicked off is only a few miles from the place the Mormon Tablets were allegedly discovered), and the Oneida and Shaker communities.

[Æmeric]

Mormonism started in the area around Rochester, New York in what historians call the Burnt-Over District. There was a proliferation of evangelical, utopian, and radical movements including the abolitionists (Frederick Douglass was active there), feminism (Seneca Falls where the suffrage movement kicked off is only a few miles from the place the Mormon Tablets were allegedly discovered), and the Oneida and Shaker communities.
Culturally, that part of Upstate New York was an extention of New England. The settlers in that area were from the New England states. Joseph Smith & Brigham Young were both born in Vermont. Kirtland, Ohio (sight of the first Mormon Temple) on near Lake Erie was another transplanted New England cultural area. I had a set of 4xgreat grandparents from Connecticut that converted to Mormonism while living in Kirkland. (After Grandpa died in Utah, Grandma returned East with her younger children & became a Baptist.:rolleyes:) The radicalism that gave us the initial suffragett movement, abolitionism, utopianism etc... came from the New England cultural area.

Mormons are generally seen in the Mountain West as being very (Nordish) White, the result of the initial families being mainly of Yankee background with additional converts arriving from England, Denmark & Norway.

[Loki]

Mormons are mostly of good racial stock, but perhaps quite a bit inbred in some places?

[Æmeric]

Mormons are mostly of good racial stock, but perhaps quite a bit inbred in some places?

The founding population was of sufficient numbers. But some of the fundamentalist Mormon sects have practice inbreeding, e.g. the Kingston group & the sect located at Colorado City, Arizona. Most contemporary Mormons do not practice polygamy, so those that do are limited in their choices of mates. Even when it (polygamy) was practiced, the typical Mormon male only had the one wife. Usually in plural households there was just 2 wives & it was only the higher ranking church officials that took several wives. But most Mormons (from the older families) have polygamous ancestors if they go back to the 19th century.

[Rasvalg]

My brother lives in Ogden, Utah as that is where he is stationed. He has some words that he calls the Mormons and none of them envolve them being xtian. But yes they probably are xtian by all definition. They are there own sect with their own ways.

[Frigga]

I remember that when I was a Christian, all within my social sphere felt that Mormons were a cult, and were not Christian. I have since left Christianity, and as an outsider now, I feel that they are more Christian then not. But, I still have to admit that I find some of their views odd. That must be a holdover from my youth. Oh well. :)

[Dominus Vobiscum]

Mormons reject the doctrine of the Trinity as taught by the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Anglican Communion and Trinitarian Protestantism (Luther, Calvin).

The doctrine of the Trinity is one of the cornerstones of Christianity.

[Psychonaut]

Mormons reject the doctrine of the Trinity as taught by the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Anglican Communion and Trinitarian Protestantism (Luther, Calvin).

The doctrine of the Trinity is one of the cornerstones of Christianity.

Wasn't the trinitarian doctrine only fully formulated in the 4th century, being finalized with the Nicaean Council? There were countless variants of Christianity that were present prior to that that had different theological perspectives. Mormon theology is of course much closer to some of these early sects than it is Catholicism, Protestantism or Orthodoxy, but does that necessarily remove them from the Christian umbrella? Would you also consider Cathars or Manichaeans to be non-Christians?

[Gooding]

Wasn't the trinitarian doctrine only fully formulated in the 4th century, being finalized with the Nicaean Council? There were countless variants of Christianity that were present prior to that that had different theological perspectives. Mormon theology is of course much closer to some of these early sects than it is Catholicism, Protestantism or Orthodoxy, but does that necessarily remove them from the Christian umbrella? Would you also consider Cathars or Manichaeans to be non-Christians?

Or for that matter, what of the Arian variant of Christianity espoused by many Germanic tribes that had contact with Rome before the invasions? The two above named groups, the Cathars and Manichaeans were/are Gnostics, which could be considered a seperate religion altogether, with overtly Christian influences.

[Absinthe]

To me, they are a bizarre Christian sect, albeit not traditional christians. But they fall under the general christian umbrella.

For those who voted No, where do you place them? The sphere of Judaism? I am curious. :)

[Dresden]

To me, they are a bizarre Christian sect, albeit not traditional christians. But they fall under the general christian umbrella.

For those who voted No, where do you place them? The sphere of Judaism? I am curious. :)

I'd consider the LDS church to be a polytheistic religion that is based on Christianity.

[Absinthe]

I'd consider the LDS church to be a polytheistic religion that is based on Christianity.
How is it polytheistic? Please enlighten me... :)

[Loki]

How is it polytheistic? Please enlighten me... :)

I reckon because Mormons believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct gods. Mainstream Christianity believes that it is one god, manifested in three persons. Of course some, like Jehovah's Witnesses, don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, and don't believe the Holy Spirit is a person.

I wouldn't call it polytheistic, it's just another interpretation on a matter in which the Bible is vague, if not confusing and contradictory.

[Psychonaut]

I reckon because Mormons believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct gods. Mainstream Christianity believes that it is one god, manifested in three persons. Of course some, like Jehovah's Witnesses, don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, and don't believe the Holy Spirit is a person.

I wouldn't call it polytheistic, it's just another interpretation on a matter in which the Bible is vague, if not confusing and contradictory.

They also have the "Heavenly Mother," who is God's wife. My Mormon buddy tells me that they believe her to be an entity of the same order as Jehova, but (for some reason I was unable to get out of him) they don't worship her directly.

[Dresden]

How is it polytheistic? Please enlighten me... :)

Mormons believe in something called Eternal Progression, which is a process by which devout Mormons can eventually become gods (Exaltation). Believing in the existence of multiple gods is polytheism. :)

There are plenty of sites on Google that talk about it, but here is one from a UK church: http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/etimplications.htm

[SwordoftheVistula]

They also have the "Heavenly Mother," who is God's wife. My Mormon buddy tells me that they believe her to be an entity of the same order as Jehova, but (for some reason I was unable to get out of him) they don't worship her directly.

That's not too different from the Catholic treatment of Mary, and they do worship her directly.

Mormons believe in something called Eternal Progression, which is a process by which devout Mormons can eventually become gods (Exaltation). Believing in the existence of multiple gods is polytheism. :)

Also not too different from the Catholic/Orthodox system of 'sainthood'

[Dresden]

Also not too different from the Catholic/Orthodox system of 'sainthood'

Are Catholic saints considered gods/goddesses who get their own planets to rule over?

[SwordoftheVistula]

Are Catholic saints considered gods/goddesses who get their own planets to rule over?

They are given 'holy days', have prayers said to them, and otherwise occupy positions roughly equivalent to the pantheon of mid to lesser gods found in polytheistic religions.

[Sally]

That's not too different from the Catholic treatment of Mary, and they do worship her directly.


That is a common misconception. Catholics venerate saints, including Mary, but worship God alone.

[SwordoftheVistula]

That is a common misconception. Catholics venerate saints, including Mary, but worship God alone.

A semantic technicality. 'Veneration', 'worship', whatever, they may not be equal to the King God (Yaweh, or sometimes Jesus) or even the Queen God (Mary), but certainly have some sort of mystical/spiritual respect, with homage of some sort payed to them.

[Æmeric]

A semantic technicality. 'Veneration', 'worship', whatever, they may not be equal to the King God (Yaweh, or sometimes Jesus) or even the Queen God (Mary), but certainly have some sort of mystical/spiritual respect, with homage of some sort payed to them.

This was something I noticed as a child. Catholics praying to statues (of saints). It was easy to make the connection to idolatry. I brought up the subject at Sunday school (at a conservative Protestant Church) & well.... I won't go into what I was told about the Catholic faith & the Pope etc...

Now I've gone & offended the Catholics.

[SwordoftheVistula]

(at a conservative Protestant Church) & well.... I won't go into what I was told about the Catholic faith & the Pope etc...

We all were taught this, I imagine, even at a 'liberal/mainline' Christian (protestant) denomination in the 80s and 90s I was taught what are considered 'Christian Identity' doctrine. The integration of Catholics took place because of political expediency to fight against communists, liberals, and in some cases non-Europeans.

[Loki]

In our church, they taught us that the Pope was the Antichrist, and that following him was a sin. ;)

[Captain Blackbeard]

In our church, they taught us that the Pope was the Antichrist, and that following him was a sin. ;)

I don't think I even knew who the Pope was till I was older.

That's either a sign that the CofE was so good at indoctrinating or perhaps simply couldn't care less.

[Osweo]

I've never really gone into the details of their weird cosmology and 'theology', but they put Christ high up enough to put him in their name, so what could you call them apart from 'Christians'?!?
Catholics demanding conformity to stuff that was wrangled out at various Fourth Century Councils has little relevance. The question is more - how to define 'Christian' without including for example Hindus who accord Jesus some degree of recognition, or Mani, who included Jesus in his prophets. I would answer simply that Jesus has to be given a preeminent place in their system, secondary to no other figure beyond 'God', extraneous to Christian tradition (e.g. Muhammad). As far as I know, the Mormons conform here. I don't think many of their rank and file really know all the absurd details that we outsiders bring up to mock them with, surely?

[Frigga]

Well, I do remember a really odd thing about Mormons that I was once told. Apparently, Mormons have to buy a special set of underwear that they're supposed to wear all the time, or at least while they're doing work for the church, or ministering. I didn't get it directly from the horse's mouth, it was from a friend of mine who had gone to school with a Mormon girl. I can't remember their name, otherwise I would have named them! I do seem to remember that they had to buy them from a catalog, and they weren't supposed to let anyone know about them. I just found that way too odd! Dictating what kind of underwear you're to wear? :eek: Who knows, maybe she was just pulling my leg.

[Gooding]

They also have the "Heavenly Mother," who is God's wife. My Mormon buddy tells me that they believe her to be an entity of the same order as Jehova, but (for some reason I was unable to get out of him) they don't worship her directly.

This is how it was explained to me.Heavenly Father, as the Head of the Family does not like to have his name blasphemed and he absolutely forbids the worship of Heavenly Mother lest her name get degraded and ultimately have blasphemous words ( cuss words) associated with her.They were both originally humans from Kolob who followed the commandments of their own God perfectly and thus achieved divinity.They begat a heavenly family that descend to earth as humans so they (or we) can observe and follow these commandments.Ideally, a Temple wedding will seal a practicing LDS couple for time and eternity, giving them the opportunity to become exactly like Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother and create and rule their own universe.

www.lds.org
www.mormon.com

[Psychonaut]

Well, I do remember a really odd thing about Mormons that I was once told. Apparently, Mormons have to buy a special set of underwear that they're supposed to wear all the time, or at least while they're doing work for the church, or ministering. I didn't get it directly from the horse's mouth, it was from a friend of mine who had gone to school with a Mormon girl. I can't remember their name, otherwise I would have named them! I do seem to remember that they had to buy them from a catalog, and they weren't supposed to let anyone know about them. I just found that way too odd! Dictating what kind of underwear you're to wear? :eek: Who knows, maybe she was just pulling my leg.

This is true. When I was at AIT, we had quite a few Mormon guys. They were allowed to wear their special underwear (which is kind of like boxer briefs that come down to your knees) for everything except for PT.

This is how it was explained to me.Heavenly Father, as the Head of the Family does not like to have his name blasphemed and he absolutely forbids the worship of Heavenly Mother lest her name get degraded and ultimately have blasphemous words ( cuss words) associated with her.They were both originally humans from Kolob who followed the commandments of their own God perfectly and thus achieved divinity.They begat a heavenly family that descend to earth as humans so they (or we) can observe and follow these commandments.Ideally, a Temple wedding will seal a practicing LDS couple for time and eternity, giving them the opportunity to become exactly like Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother and create and rule their own universe.


Huh. It was explained a lot different to me, but my buddy is a little off. He told me that a good analogy was to think of God as your boss (like at work). You obey your boss because he is your boss, but you don't behave the same way towards your boss' wife. His authority over you doesn't transfer to her simply because she is his wife. :shrug:

[Sally]

In our church, they taught us that the Pope was the Antichrist, and that following him was a sin. ;)

Did your church distribute Chick tracts, too? Those things are great; I've even seen them in Finnish! However, they might've been an almost exclusively American phenomenon. ;)

http://i43.tinypic.com/2dt3gue.gif


http://i39.tinypic.com/2mfj4hl.gif

[Loki]

Did your church distribute Chick tracts, too? Those things are great; I've even seen them in Finnish! However, they might've been an almost exclusively American phenomenon. ;)


Yes! :D They handed them out in Sunday School :p

[Gooding]

Yes! :D They handed them out in Sunday School :p

*Groans* I've encountered Chick tracts in the public restrooms in College.LOL, I had found their materials to work wonders as laxitives!:D

[KEN]

In our church, they taught us that the Pope was the Antichrist, and that following him was a sin. ;)

Same here, I was a member of a Pentecostal happy, clappy church! :embarrassed

[Loki]

Same here, I was a member of a Pentecostal happy, clappy church! :embarrassed

Me too! :D Can you still speak in tongues? :p

[KEN]

Me too! :D Can you still speak in tongues? :p

No, I never did, but I watched the older members do it - it looked like they were having an epileptic fit. :confused:

[Æmeric]

Well, I do remember a really odd thing about Mormons that I was once told. Apparently, Mormons have to buy a special set of underwear that they're supposed to wear all the time, or at least while they're doing work for the church, or ministering. I didn't get it directly from the horse's mouth, it was from a friend of mine who had gone to school with a Mormon girl. I can't remember their name, otherwise I would have named them! I do seem to remember that they had to buy them from a catalog, and they weren't supposed to let anyone know about them. I just found that way too odd! Dictating what kind of underwear you're to wear? :eek: Who knows, maybe she was just pulling my leg.

http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/images/mormon-temple-garments.jpg

^

This is the Mormon underwear. I had the inpression it was only worn during temple ceremonies. I attended junior high & high school with a student body that was 1/4 to 1/3 Mormon. And I never saw these in the locker room. As I pointed out in the underwear thread everyone wore these:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IeEkufcr8sg/RlJwUej61YI/AAAAAAAABGM/yAeUR83Xcgs/s400/white+briefs+00401.jpg

Which might seem weird nowadays, the conformity.


In Arizona public schools, religious instruction was permitted during school hours. However it was considered an extracurricular activity, there was no credit earned & could not take place on school grounds. Mormons took advantage of this by buying land adjacent or across the street from junior & high schools with sizable Mormon student bodies & erecting seminaries. This is one way to tell which neighborhoods have sizable numbers of Mormon families, from the seminaries along side the junior & high schools & whether there was a Mormon chapel.

[Psychonaut]

I had the inpression it was only worn during temple ceremonies. I attended junior high & high school with a student body that was 1/4 to 1/3 Mormon. And I never saw these in the locker room.

Huh. I remember that the guys never wore these to work out, but after we showered in the gym, they'd all put on their special underwear before putting on their duty uniform. :shrug:

[Loki]

The discussion regarding speaking in tongues merits a separate thread ... go here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3528) for the split-off.

[Æmeric]

Huh. I remember that the guys never wore these to work out, but after we showered in the gym, they'd all put on their special underwear before putting on their duty uniform. :shrug:
Maybe it's something they do after they turn 18 or maybe there was a divine revelation making the wearing of the underwear mandatory all the time since 1980. I know they are sold at specialty stores that cater to Mormons (in Arizona), that also sell Mormon religious books other articles of specific interest to Mormons. Zions Department Store also carries it but most Zions were in Utah, they only had one store in the east Phoenix Metro area.

There are certain names that I associate with Mormon families - in the Mountain West. Farnsworth, Turley, Flake, Pomeroy, Driggs, Crandall, Udall, Skousen, Christensen, Kimball, Pratt, Young... I went to school from the 5-12 grades with a guy named Young who was the great-great-great-grandson of Brigham. Rulon is a forename that I have only encountered among Mormons, I think it comes from the Book of Mormon.

[Gooding]

The Sacred Underwear is fascinating...they have a couple of other practices that I thought was interesting as well.They have something you can only get once in your life: "The purpose of a patriarchal blessing is (1) to identify the tribe of Israel to which a Latter-day Saint belongs, (2) to bless the member with knowledge and spiritual gifts, (3) to give advice or help to the individual (often this includes foretelling of possible future events, opportunities, and temptations). Within the Church, a patriarchal blessing is considered to be a revelation for the recipient, with the promises made in the blessing considered conditional upon the recipient's obedience to gospel principles."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchal_Blessing#Patriarchal_blessings_in_The_ Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

They also have something called a Fasting Sunday..You don't eat all morning and when you go to chapel, you sit in the sanctuary and listen to the monthly message given to the entire church by the President/Prophet of the LDS church. Not to mention the mandatory priesthood endowed on all male members of the church. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Sunday,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaronic_Priesthood They are really a fascinating society and their Temple in Kensington is quite grand.