The Armenians

[Artaxat]

Dear members,

I decided to open this thread due to the following reasons

1- The title of the previous thread about Armenians is unintentionally misleading "Armenians and Middle East Christians on Apricty..." This gives the feeling that Armenia is a central Middle Eastern country.
Moreover, if that was the intention, to discuss Middle East Christians, why single out Armenians by naming them?
Or why not say "Assyrians, Maronites, Arameans, Chaldeans, Copts and other Middle East Christians"?

2- Even the poll,"are Armenians/Georgians Europeans?"...is confusing.
Better to vote for one country at a time. Either Armenia, Georgia or Middle East Christians.

3- Since there was a heated debate on the identity of Armenians (European/West Asia), of Assyrians as well (related to Armenians or not), European borders if it includes Armenia, Proto IE and relationship to Armenians and so on. My opinion is that it would be better if these topics are discussed by focusing only on the Armenian/European connection (if any?) rather than the entire Middle East Christians (which is very diverse) extending from Africa, Arabia to Turkey.

4- The previous thread was contaminated by many childish and foul language, which does not allow serious people from taking part of the discussion (and that is a shame), because it is such serious opinions we are interested in.

For an objective start, I will post a map of modern Armenia.

http://www.vidiani.com/maps/maps_of_asia/maps_of_armenia/detailed_administrative_map_of_armenia.jpg

And a regional map of the Caucasus

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Caucasus_region_1994.jpg

Please, let us discuss EVERYTHING, but in a civilized way.

Thank you,
Artaxes

[Sikeliot]

One of the things that I think is important to this topic is to consider that the homeland of the Armenian people was once a larger portion of land than today's Armenia, and it indeed did include parts of countries today considered part of the Middle East.

Thus it is likely that people today in those regions that belong to other nations, ie. eastern Turks, have Armenian ancestry.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/turan-land.gif

[Artaxat]

Interesting, which year is that map dated?

[Sikeliot]

I think it is just the greatest extent of the Armenian peoples' occupied land.

Here is another one

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/turkey-armenia.gif

[Eva]

Interesting, which year is that map dated?

Future?:D

[Artaxat]

I think it is just the greatest extent of the Armenian peoples' occupied land.

Here is another one

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/turkey-armenia.gif

Please Clementina, a bit more serious sources/maps

I am here to find out my precise relationship with Europeans

[Sikeliot]

http://www.littlearmenia.com/images/historymap.gif

Either way they all point to the same thing.. today's Armenia is only a fraction of historical Armenia, which included lands in both the Caucasus and countries now considered part of the Middle East.

[Artaxat]

http://www.littlearmenia.com/images/historymap.gif

Either way they all point to the same thing.. today's Armenia is only a fraction of historical Armenia, which included lands in both the Caucasus and countries now considered part of the Middle East.

That is quite a sizeable territory.

Then when we say Armenia from now, we refer to the full Armenian Highlands? The part that stretches from the Caspian to the Black and Mediterranean sea. Or only we refer to Armenia territory of today?

This is important point if we are going to classify the country for its geographic position, and not exclusively genetic constituency (considering populations are native to their geography, which is not always the case). Agreed?

[Sikeliot]

That is quite a sizeable territory.

Then when we say Armenia from now, we refer to the full Armenian Highlands? The part that stretches from the Caspian to the Black and Mediterranean sea. Or only we refer to Armenia territory of today?

This is important point if we are going to classify the country for its geographic position, and not exclusively genetic constituency (considering populations are native to their geography, which is not always the case). Agreed?

Well I usually would refer to the Armenian people, not to Armenia, because Armenians are native to all of the land they once owned, and cluster closely to the people in these lands today, I would assume. Thus this is the reason I consider Armenians a Caucasian, Anatolian, and Mesopotamian people.. as historically they spanned the three regions.

[Artaxat]

Well I usually would refer to the Armenian people, not to Armenia, because Armenians are native to all of the land they once owned, and cluster closely to the people in these lands today, I would assume. Thus this is the reason I consider Armenians a Caucasian, Anatolian, and Mesopotamian people.. as historically they spanned the three regions.

Today Armenia exists in Southern Caucasus. So if we are going to agree on a geographic designation of a larger Armenia, we better be as precise as possible, for you Clementina I assume the map you provided is a good reference.

But which borders you are referring to? The brown zone of Greater Armenia? or the Wilsonian dotted boundary, it makes a difference.

[Sikeliot]

Today Armenia exists in Southern Caucasus. So if we are going to agree on a geographic designation of a larger Armenia, we better be as precise as possible, for you Clementina I assume the map you provided is a good reference.

But which borders you are referring to? The brown zone of Greater Armenia? or the Wilsonian dotted boundary, it makes a difference.

Greater Armenia. If you look at Armenia geographically even (historically or otherwise), it borders many nations entirely accepted as Middle Eastern (Iran, Turkey, Azerbaijan) and historical Armenia also would have bordered Syria and Iraq too (even encompassed part of them), and the only nation Armenia ever bordered that is even partially accepted as European is Georgia, so I also would not geographically call Armenia (now or ever) European.. at best, "Caucasian" can suffice, but I would put that on its own and not into Europe or the Middle East.. but really to me, the area is geographically part of the northern Middle East.

[Artaxat]

Greater Armenia. If you look at Armenia geographically even (historically or otherwise), it borders many nations entirely accepted as Middle Eastern (Iran, Turkey, Azerbaijan) and historical Armenia also would have bordered Syria and Iraq too (even encompassed part of them), and the only nation Armenia ever bordered that is even partially accepted as European is Georgia, so I also would not geographically call Armenia (now or ever) European.. at best, "Caucasian" can suffice, but I would put that on its own and not into Europe or the Middle East.. but really to me, the area is geographically part of the northern Middle East.

If we are going to take Greater Armenia, we have to then choose a certain date between 3000 years :confused:

Can you tell me which date is your preferred one? :)

[Sikeliot]

If we are going to take Greater Armenia, we have to then choose a certain date between 3000 years :confused:

Can you tell me which date is your preferred one? :)

Whichever date Armenia was at its greatest extent.

[Artaxat]

Whichever date Armenia was at its greatest extent.

I see, you want to include the Levantine,Mesopatamia, Anatolia and Caucasus. cheeky ;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Maps_of_the_Armenian_Empire_of_Tigranes.gif

The greatest extents of the Armenian Empire reach during 331 BC–428 AD
A period of 759 years. Fair enough.

It's peak occuring during Artaxiad Dynasty 190 BC-1 AD (just when baby Jesus was born, reminds me of Christmas on which we disagree with the Catholics on the precise date ;))
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Artaxiad.svg


Keep in mind on the brown part of the map is labelled Greater Armenia, the rest of the parts being lesser Armenia or vassal territories which were under Armenian rule, but not necessarily inhabited by Armenians, and even if inhabited does not necessarily mean mixing of populations. Agreed?

[Artaxat]

Well I usually would refer to the Armenian people, not to Armenia, because Armenians are native to all of the land they once owned, and cluster closely to the people in these lands today, I would assume. Thus this is the reason I consider Armenians a Caucasian, Anatolian, and Mesopotamian people.. as historically they spanned the three regions.

When one looks carefully at the extents of Greater Armenia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Ayrarat.jpg

one finds

-Mount Ararat at the Center
-The Capital Artaxat, lying in the North Central part
-Lakes Van and Sevan are fully enclosed
-Sharing the Western opening of the Ural lake and the Caspian Sea
-Sharing a southern boundary with Mesopotamia, but Armenia itself not in Mesopotamia
-Sharing a land boundary with the Anatolian West, but itself not lying in Anatolia, Anatolia connects to Armenia at Kappadokia and Cilicia (were I hail from)
These are the ancient Anatolian provinces, Greater Armenia, not in Anatolia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg

- Fully enclosing the Southern Caucasus and bordering the Northern Caucasus
- Neighbouring the Cimmerian to the Black Sea
- Through Tigranakert connects to the Levantine, though Armenia itself is not Levantine.


So now I can say
Armenia is a Caucasian entity
Covers the territories of Ararat and Armenian Highland
Armenia is not in Anatolia but borders it
Armenia is not in Mesopotamia but borders it
Armenia is not in Levant but borders it

Everyone agrees?

[Artaxat]

So from now on, when we refer to Armenia and Armenians, we refer to the following geographic bounds, and the people who used to live therein.

Armenia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Arshakuni_Armenia_150-en.svg


Map of the region 650 BC
http://i.imgur.com/KCSfz.jpg

Full map
http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_650bc.jpg

Assuming that populations mix with random proportions over time (which might not necessarily be the case) the genesis of Armenia as an entity would involve a random proportionate tribal confedaration of

A dominant native population representation of the Armenian Highlands
Nairi people (Native Armenians)
Hayassa - Armens (Native Armenians)
Urarteans (Neither Indo European nor Semitic, but have a separate Hurrian-Urartean language Native to Armenian Highlands)

together with neighbouring friendly or rival populations
Caspians (pre Indo Europeans maybe under Iranian influence)
Scythians (Indo Europeans)
Medes (Ancient Iranian people)
Manneans (mixed natives of Iranian plateau and Azerbaijan, were subjected to an ever increasing Iranian (i.e. Indo-European) penetration
Assyrians (Ancient people native to upper Mesopotamia but were under strong rivalry with Urarteans, check Urartu–Assyria War 714BC)
Mushki (Cappadocian Mushki Armeno-Phrygians)
Khaldis (Chaldoi tribe of proto-Georgians. Classical Antiquity credited with the invention of ferrous metallurgy)
Phrygians (Indo Europeans)
Cimmerians (Greek: Κιμμέριοι, Kimmerioi) ancient equestrian nomads of Indo-European origin
Colchis (Native Georgians, Laz)
Iberians (Native Ibero-Caucasians)

[Armenian Bishop]

So from now on, when we refer to Armenia and Armenians, we refer to the following geographic bounds, and the people who used to live therein.

Armenia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Arshakuni_Armenia_150-en.svg

Would it be wise to include Cilicia, as well -- north of Cyprus, at the Mediterranean Seacoast?

[Artaxat]

Would it be wise to include Cilicia, as well -- north of Cyprus, at the Mediterranean Seacoast?

That depends on the wisdom of our Greek-European partners.

[Armenian Bishop]

Dear members,

I decided to open this thread due to the following reasons

1- The title of the previous thread about Armenians is unintentionally misleading "Armenians and Middle East Christians on Apricty..." This gives the feeling that Armenia is a central Middle Eastern country.
Moreover, if that was the intention, to discuss Middle East Christians, why single out Armenians by naming them?
Or why not say "Assyrians, Maronites, Arameans, Chaldeans, Copts and other Middle East Christians"?

2- Even the poll,"are Armenians/Georgians Europeans?"...is confusing.
Better to vote for one country at a time. Either Armenia, Georgia or Middle East Christians.

3- Since there was a heated debate on the identity of Armenians (European/West Asia), of Assyrians as well (related to Armenians or not), European borders if it includes Armenia, Proto IE and relationship to Armenians and so on. My opinion is that it would be better if these topics are discussed by focusing only on the Armenian/European connection (if any?) rather than the entire Middle East Christians (which is very diverse) extending from Africa, Arabia to Turkey.

4- The previous thread was contaminated by many childish and foul language, which does not allow serious people from taking part of the discussion (and that is a shame), because it is such serious opinions we are interested in.

For an objective start, I will post a map of modern Armenia.

http://www.vidiani.com/maps/maps_of_asia/maps_of_armenia/detailed_administrative_map_of_armenia.jpg

And a regional map of the Caucasus

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Caucasus_region_1994.jpg

Please, let us discuss EVERYTHING, but in a civilized way.

Thank you,
Artaxes

Thank You for opening this Thread! I'm generally in agreement with your list of 4 reasons for opening this Armenia Thread. A serious interest in questions about Armenia are facilitated by keeping this civil.

[Artaxat]

Thank You for opening this Thread! I'm generally in agreement with your list of 4 reasons for opening this Armenia Thread. A serious interest in questions about Armenia are facilitated by keeping this civil.

I hope other members of diverse backgrounds also would join the discussion. Specially the silent viewers :) I just don't like the style of posting hand picked photos (ugly or pretty), foul language, excessive sarcasm, cynical posts etc.
The experience then becomes pretty stressful.

If we all mainatin a respectful attitude, but nevertheless with some humor and a little agression :) but let's not bash each other

[Armenian Bishop]

http://www.littlearmenia.com/images/historymap.gif

Either way they all point to the same thing.. today's Armenia is only a fraction of historical Armenia, which included lands in both the Caucasus and countries now considered part of the Middle East.

Yes, Very True! This is a matter of restoring territorial integrity for Armenia.

Its interesting that Azerbaijan has complained and whined loudly about a violation of its territorial integrity, after Armenia defeated them in the Karabakh Wars (1988-1994); however, the areas in question were all included within the homeland of Greater Armenia, thousands of years ago.

Armenian Claims to the Armenian Highlands, in Present Day Eastern Turkey, date back thousands of years, even more so than in the Caucasus. The violation of Armenia's Territorial Integrity, by Turkey, cannot be realistically disputed. In this area, there is a conflict of interest between Armenians and Kurds, as well as Turks.

[Artaxat]

Would it be wise to include Cilicia, as well -- north of Cyprus, at the Mediterranean Seacoast?

Why would I include Cilicia into Greater Armenia?

It is all the way in the Mediterranean.

For how long did Armenians live in Cilicia?

If I include Cilicia,then we have to include Syria, Kappadokia, Sophene,Osrohene, Syria and Judea.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Maps_of_the_Armenian_Empire_of_Tigranes.gif

[Armenian Bishop]

Why would I include Cilicia into Greater Armenia?

It is all the way in the Mediterranean.

For how long did Armenians live in Cilicia?

If I include Cilicia,then we have to include Syria, Kappadokia, Sophene,Osrohene, Syria and Judea.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Maps_of_the_Armenian_Empire_of_Tigranes.gif

As you may know, I was only considering the possibility of including Cilicia within the domaine of Armenia. Maybe, I've misunderstood the intention of defining the Armenian sphere of influence, which defines Armenia.

I had the impression that we are creating a mandate to receive compensation from claims to do justice for the violation of Armenia's Territorial Integrity. But, perhaps I went outside the intention for defining the boundaries of Armenia. Sassoun (Sasun) would link Cilicia to The Armenian Highland.

Cilicia would give Armenia a warm water port to the Mediterranean Sea.

Are we defining the area which defines the origins of Armenian Civilization? If so, then Cilicia shouldn't be included.

Are we defining the area, which defines the presence of Armenians, within the sphere of influence of the Armenian Homeland? Then, maybe its a valid discussion. The Armenian Kingdom in Cilicia (1078-1375), was a sovereign country for nearly 3 hundred years, longer than the entire recorded history of the United States, which broke away from Britain in 1775.

Are we discussing a Wilsonian Armenia? If so, then Cilicia wouldn't be included. It would stretch south all the way to the region around Lake Van, including Van, Moush (pronounced Moosh) and Bitlis; with an western border at Erzincan and Trebizon; a eastern border at present day Iran, including Mount Ararat; and, a northern border stretching east and north into the South Caucasus, beyond the borders of present day Armenia.

It's interesting to note that President Wilson chose to include Trebizon within the boundaries of Armenia, because Armenia needed a port to the Black Sea.

[Artaxat]

As you may know, I was only considering the possibility of including Cilicia within the domaine of Armenia. Maybe, I've misunderstood the intention of defining the Armenian sphere of influence, which defines Armenia.

I had the impression that we are creating a mandate to receive compensation from claims to do justice for the violation of Armenia's Territorial Integrity. But, perhaps I went outside the intention for defining the boundaries of Armenia. Sassoun (Sasun) would link Cilicia to The Armenian Highland.


Yes Sasun is included in Greater Armenia. But not Cilicia

The province called Aghdznik includes both Sasun and Tigranakert and are located in Greater Armenia and that is where it ends. The coasts of Cilicia and the Black sea are volatile, too many by passers, thus cannot be defended over time.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Arshakuni_Armenia_150-en.svg

Speaking of Sasun, I would like to share the great Armenian heroic epic

Daredevils of Sassoun ...unlike such well-known epics as the Iliad and the Odyssey, Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Chanson de Roland, Poema el Cid and others one might mention, it has survived solely by word of mouth, transmitted from one generation to another by village bards.

It was only in 1874 that an Armenian monk found a peasant who knew all the four parts by heart and was finally written down.

This poem is about David of Sasun son of Lion-Mher who drove Arab invaders out of Armenia. It is very fast paced and fun to read. It embodies the ideal National Armenian chracter, to be good, hard working, honest and brave. By the way Misr is meant to be Egypt.

Our European fellows should look into such literary pieces to understand our culture and ethos and see if it is consitent with theirs?
http://www.arak29.am/PDF_PPT/6-Literature/David/TextEng.htm




Cilicia would give Armenia a warm water port to the Mediterranean Sea.

If we have good neighbours, then we also have the ports. Better build friendships than try to overstretch in volatile regions. Look at Turkey,now they are in trouble they want to attack Syria, a year ago, they were happy about a visa free border, hilarious short sightedness.



Are we defining the area which defines the origins of Armenian Civilization? If so, then Cilicia shouldn't be included.

Yes, and to define a precise region from where genetic markers should be evaluated.



Are we defining the area, which defines the presence of Armenians, within the sphere of influence of the Armenian Homeland? Then, maybe its a valid discussion. The Armenian Kingdom in Cilicia (1078-1375), was a sovereign country for nearly 3 hundred years, longer than the entire recorded history of the United States, which broke away from Britain in 1775.

That is why in our evaluation I would like to incorporate the neighborhood of Armenia and understand the level of interaction, but with whom and when? Persians?Greeks?Romans?Caucasian?...

[Artaxat]

I also overlaid tectonic features on the map of Greater Armenia
http://i.imgur.com/V1YUu.jpg

Speaking in terms of landmasses and continental drift, Armenia neither falls in the Anatolian Plate nor in the Arabian plate.

It is of its own an Armenian-Caucasian block.

Seismically very active
http://www.emsc-csem.org/Earthquake/Map/zoom.php?key=124&typ=euro#5

[Artaxat]

The next academic step after having agreed on the spatial extents of our study, one will need a genetic sample of the people who have proven to inhabit the study area. If there is no objections I will continue with the data display after having agreed on the data source.

Any recommendation of an Armenian dna database with geo-spatial link?

[Nairi]

Thus it is likely that people today in those regions that belong to other nations, ie. eastern Turks, have Armenian ancestry.



Thank you for pointing that out. :)

Not only Eastern Turks but very many others are genetically influeneced by Armenians. And genetic flow has always been one way- from Armenians to others.

This is from Armenian DNA Project with who/which Transhumanist works now.

Interest of one of the Administrator of ADP is :

Hovann is particularly interested in deep genealogy, the survival of Armenian nobility and the origins of various special Armenian communities (such as Hamshen Armenians or Hemshin, Dersim tribes, Hay-Roums, Levantinized Armenian Catholics of Smyrna, Arabicized Armenians of Syria and Lebanon, Turkified and Kurdified Armenians, etc.).

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Levant.jpg

I believe once you posted picture of Levant upper class which was very different to another picture you posted of ordinary people and upper class looked quite Armenian. (This is not invitation to flood the thread with their photos though). As you see those pictures coincide with history of surviving of Armenian nobility there. And obviously it doesn't mean that today they survived only as upper class.


Sorry Artaxat for hijacking your thread, just something to keep in mind while taking discussion further :S

[Artaxat]

Now that the troll circus came to an end.
Thank you Loki, very grateful.

I hope we continue together, in an honest and precise investigation into the Armenian identity, origins, Indo-European or not and so forth

I already have posted the maps (without proper geographic delineation) one cannot speak of national geneologic identity.

I ask you,
1- to agree or disagree on the Greater Armenia map, as our sampling area.

2- to recommend a genetic database where we can proceed our analysis

[Armenian Bishop]

Now that the troll circus came to an end.
Thank you Loki, very grateful.

I hope we continue together, in an honest and precise investigation into the Armenian identity, origins, Indo-European or not and so forth

I already have posted the maps (without proper geographic delineation) one cannot speak of national geneologic identity.

I ask you,
1- to agree or disagree on the Greater Armenia map, as our sampling area.

2- to recommend a genetic database where we can proceed our analysis

Agreed, it's now our duty to make inquiry into Armenian identity and origins, on this Thread.

I think that we should take more time to determine the proper geographic delineations of Armenian National Identity and Origins. Probably, more folks will join us to give a broader consensus.

[Artaxat]

Agreed, it's now our duty to make inquiry into Armenian identity and origins, on this Thread.

I think that we should take more time to determine the proper geographic delineations of Armenian National Identity and Origins. Probably, more folks will join us to give a broader consensus.

Honesty above all, personally this is a very sensitive topic, my aim is to truly find the Armenian identity, even if I am told we are African, Asians or Europeans I can handle it, but we need to fully understand or be certain of the national identity.

Conducting this investigation in an open forum is proof of being transparent.

If Armenians do not get involved, then I take it that they are not honest in their search for their roots. I will conduct within my own capabilities this research and post everything I find for the interested reader.

If non-Armenians do not participate, I will take their silence as acceptance of the furnished facts.

Good luck to everyone :thumb001:

[Artavazt]

....

[Artavazt]

...

[Artaxat]

Artavazd, before getting into the DNA aspect, I want to reach a consensus on the geographic aspect. Would be nice to reach an understanding where Armenia begins and finishes, same with the boundary of Europe, as well as Asia/Near East

[Artavazt]

Artavazd, before getting into the DNA aspect, I want to reach a consensus on the geographic aspect. Would be nice to reach an understanding where Armenia begins and finishes, same with the boundary of Europe, as well as Asia/Near East

Talking about armenia beeing in europe or not is like talking if the world is round or flat.

Eastern Europe Road Map

http://www.mapsworldwide.com/itm_img/9984072851.jpg


A double sided road map of Eastern Europe including Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Romania, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan & Western Russia.

Published by: Jana Seta Map Publishers Ltd

ISBN number: 9984073904

Date: 2005

Series: Jana Seta Road Maps

Layout: Folded Map, Scale 1:2 000 000

If available you will be sent the latest edition of the product shown.

Our price £7.95


But if you want me to stop posting about armenia dna in your thread thats fine,its your thread after all :rolleyes:

[Artaxat]

But if you want me to stop posting about armenia dna in your thread thats fine,its your thread after all :rolleyes:
no, that's not the point. All I said is that DNA talk comes later.

I understand from your viewpoint, geography does not matter,since European boundaries as well as Armenia's are not well delineated.

If everyone agrees on this assumption, we can proceed with the DNA aspect

I see three options

This
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Caucasus_region_1994.jpg

This
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Arshakuni_Armenia_150-en.svg

or This
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Maps_of_the_Armenian_Empire_of_Tigranes.gif

According to the first map (modern boundaries) my opinion is that it can (though controversially) qualify as fully within European bounds

[Armenian Bishop]

Talking about armenia beeing in europe or not is like talking if the world is round or flat.

Eastern Europe Road Map

http://www.mapsworldwide.com/itm_img/9984072851.jpg


A double sided road map of Eastern Europe including Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Romania, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan & Western Russia.

Published by: Jana Seta Map Publishers Ltd

ISBN number: 9984073904

Date: 2005

Series: Jana Seta Road Maps

Layout: Folded Map, Scale 1:2 000 000

If available you will be sent the latest edition of the product shown.

Our price £7.95


But if you want me to stop posting about armenia dna in your thread thats fine,its your thread after all :rolleyes:

Artaxat just temporarily put the breaks on it -- because we were in the process of discussing the historical geographical boundaries of Armenia. Generally, we are already aware that present day Armenia is only a fraction of the historic genetic homeland of Armenia.

The step-by-step discussion has led us to a crossroads for determining the geographic extent of Armenia's and historical genetic boundaries. If we are ready to accept the boundaries earlier defined by Artavazt, which include greater Armenia, then we should proceed to the next step. I advised that we take a little more time to determine the geographic origination of our genetic homeland.

I'm prepared to accept Greater Armenia's Geographic Boundaries, which doesn't include Cilicia, Capadocia and other places, but I thought that we might benefit from further discussion. Now, I see that there is an interest in moving ahead to the next step, in this inquiry. That is okay with me, if there is an interest to move on to discuss genetic material now.

[Artaxat]

I also find the second map agreeable, although genetic markers from Kappadokia might probably contain more European traces.

Seems the religious component also has pulled Armenia (and probably other christians of the Near East) towards Europe

The adoption of Christianity gave the Armenian nation a new face and
became a potent force in its history. Willingly or unwillingly, pagan
Armenia was turned toward the East, toward Persian civilization. The
conversion of Armenia led the Armenian civilization to turn, once
and for all, toward the West, and bound Armenia with the civilized
nations of Europe.


Ofcourse after understanding our own identity, it would be very interesting to inquire Armenians' relations with their neighbours, friends and foes, throughout various temporal episodes

[Odoacer]

This
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Caucasus_region_1994.jpg

According to the first map (modern boundaries) my opinion is that it can (though controversially) qualify as fully within European bounds

If we say that Armenia is fully within the geographical boundaries of Europe (which necessarily assumes that the Caucasus Mountains are not a boundary, as traditionally understood), what major physical features divide Armenia & the Caucasian countries in general from Asia? More specifically, what divides Armenia on a continental basis from Anatolia, Mesopotamia, & Persia?

[Artaxat]

If we say that Armenia is fully within the geographical boundaries of Europe (which necessarily assumes that the Caucasus Mountains are not a boundary, as traditionally understood), what major physical features divide Armenia & the Caucasian countries in general from Asia? More specifically, what divides Armenia on a continental basis from Anatolia, Mesopotamia, & Persia?

I posted a map with tectonic features
http://i.imgur.com/V1YUu.jpg

West: the Anatolian plate seems by itself to form one separate tectonic block, although topographically speaking there is no noticeable separation, the highlands (over 1000 meters altitude) continue seamlessly Westwards. Tectonically speparable. Hence, one can correctly argue that Greater Armenia does not fall in Anatolia, both being separate tectonic blocks.

South: is topographically distinct from Mesoptamia. The altitude falls sharply from over 1000 meter to less than 200 meters. Tectonically speaking, there is the Bitlis suture.

East: No visible natural boundary. Except for Ural lake, which may act as a landmark. But I think climatically it shifts towards arid highlands.

North: completely encircles Southern Caucasus, but bounding with Caucasus minor. Here one might argue, Europe ends at Northern Caucasus

http://gsabulletin.gsapubs.org/content/122/11-12/1830/F1.large.jpg

[Artavazt]

Ok
now i erased both of my pervious posts.

[Odoacer]

I posted a map with tectonic features
http://i.imgur.com/V1YUu.jpg

West: the Anatolian plate seems by itself to form one separate tectonic block, although topographically speaking there is no noticeable separation, the highlands (over 1000 meters altitude) continue seamlessly Westwards. Tectonically speparable. Hence, one can correctly argue that Greater Armenia does not fall in Anatolia, both being separate tectonic blocks.

Well, I don't argue that Armenia is in Anatolia, but it does seem there are no significant physical boundaries, despite tectonics. Hence, if Armenia is in Europe, so also is Anatolia. Would you agree?


South: is topographically distinct from Mesoptamia. The altitude falls sharply from over 1000 meter to less than 200 meters. Tectonically speaking, there is the Bitlis suture.

The change in altitude might constitute a significant boundary, that's fair enough.


East: No visible natural boundary. Except for Ural lake, which may act as a landmark. But I think climatically it shifts towards arid highlands.

So here there is no significant physical boundary between Armenia & Persia. If Armenia is fully in Europe, is Persia (at least partially) in Europe, too?


North: completely encircles Southern Caucasus, but bounding with Caucasus minor. Here one might argue, Europe ends at Northern Caucasus

http://gsabulletin.gsapubs.org/content/122/11-12/1830/F1.large.jpg

The Northern (Greater) Caucasus are precisely the traditional boundary of Europe.

Consider also, India has greater physical boundaries to the surrounding parts of Asia than does Armenia, yet India is fully part of Asia.

[Armenian Bishop]

Ok
now i erased both of my pervious posts.

I'm sorry this happened! Hopefully, you'll provide that information later. Your 2 deleted posts could benefit us, if you're able to provide the information again. Artaxat didn't feel ready to proceed to the next step, because I expressed interest in getting a wider consensus of information to define Armenia's geographic genetic homeland. I wanted to give you and others an opportunity to express your viewpoint about it.

[Nairi]

If Armenians do not get involved, then I take it that they are not honest in their search for their roots.



I 100% disagree with you on this one, mate. I participate but not because I want to find my roots but because I want to present my roots. I know where my roots are an I know the colour of my blood: karmir,kapuit, tziranaguin ;)

Movses Khorenatsi about Armenian Identity

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/91408342187474165.jpeg

Movses Khorenatsi, an Armenian historian (5 th century), and author of the History of Armenia.

He is credited with the earliest known historiographical work on the history of Armenia, but was also a poet, or hymn writer, and a grammarian. The History of Armenia was written at the behest of Prince Sahak Bagratuni and has had an enormous impact on Armenian historiography and was used and quoted extensively by later medieval Armenian authors. Although other Armenians, such as Agat’angeghos, had previously written histories on Armenia, Movses’ work holds particular significance because it contains unique material on the old oral traditions in Armenia before its conversion to Christianity and, more important, traces Armenian history from Movses’ day to its origins. He is considered to be the “father of Armenian history” (patmahayr), and is sometimes referred to as the “Armenian Herodotus.

According to Movses, in fifth century Armenia, Armenians were fully aware of their identity, their geographical space, and their historical origins.

The newly translated Biblical texts only confirmed some of the stories that were already known in the Armenian highland: of cataclysmic floods that resulted in the second beginning of mankind in Armenia proper that begins with Noah as the second ancestor of humanity and Mount Ararat as a point of geographical designation for the new beginning.

In History, Moses narrates the story of Japeth’s grandson (through Torkom), Haig and his descendents, the Hyes (as Armenians call themselves). Although we cannot trace the sources used by Moses with full certainty, we are aware that he traveled extensively and was familiar with the works of Greek and Syriac scholars. However, a large proportion of his stories and chronology is certainly Armenian in origin. It is almost a certainty that the oral tradition provided some of the material in this remarkable work, as has the oral tradition in the early written texts of all cultures.

It has to be noted that the oral transmission of literary works throughout the centuries is not, of course, unique to Armenian. The entire poetry of Arabic literature known as the Age of Ignorance (predating Islam) was recorded many centuries after the Arab world had converted to Islam, and virtually all Homeric scholars accept the oral precursors of the Iliad and the Odyssey.

Interestingly, in spite of an existing written culture that was largely made possible by the invention of the Armenian alphabet, in the following centuries, the oral tradition in Armenian literature continued to exist. A more recent example of this tradition may be the epic tale of Sasna Dzrer–Daredevils of Sassoun– which had originated in the 10th century but was put in writing only in the second half of the 19th century.

[Loki]

Whichever date Armenia was at its greatest extent.

The Greek empire under Alexander stretched into modern-day Pakistan and Afghanistan. Yet we don't include these areas as people who look like Greeks.

[Artaxat]

Well, I don't argue that Armenia is in Anatolia, but it does seem there are no significant physical boundaries, despite tectonics.
I was about to agree, until I noticed some morphological differences.

This map looks primitive, but can illustrate the idea. The previous posted maps also can be used
http://www.ancientanatolia.com/maps/introduction.map.gif

At the Armenian highlands around lake Van, we find a distinct and complex topographic uplift, which then separates into two complex stretching mountain ranges westwards (Pontus and Taurus), in between these two ranges we find the Anatolian plateau, still at high altitute average (600- 1200m) but topographically less complex. Also climatically drier.

So, we find tectonic boundaries (major faults) as well as vague morphologic boundary, one block splitting into three, logically, it correlates precisely with tectonics.


Hence, if Armenia is in Europe, so also is Anatolia. Would you agree?

The link between Armenia and Europe is the Caucasus. Whereas Anatolia is linked to Europe via the Bosphorus. If there was no clear disconnect at the Bosphorus, I would have agreed.
Moreover, you mention an IF. First we better handle the uncertainties

In my opinion (so far), both Armenia and Anatolia constitute transcontinental zones (strictly georaphically speaking)


So here there is no significant physical boundary between Armenia & Persia. If Armenia is fully in Europe, is Persia (at least partially) in Europe, too?

Another "If", first let us clear up the uncertainties.




The Northern (Greater) Caucasus are precisely the traditional boundary of Europe.

Northern Caucasus falls completely within Europe. The boundary between Europe and Asia, is the watershed between North Caucasus and the South (Transcaucasia)


To sum up for now, and please (dear reader) understand we are talking about the Natural map, not political map. The latter also shall be addressed.

I think we can agree now that Historical Armenia is located in a transcontinental area called the Armenian Highlands around Mount Ararat encompassing the three lakes Van, Sevan and Urmia as well as the Southern Caucasus.

Boundaries
North: bounds Europe through North Caucasus
Southwest, South, SouthEast: bounds Levante, Mesopotamia,Persia
West: Anatolia
East: bounds Central Asia through a maritime link (Caspian Sea)

Personally, (only my opinion) geographically speaking (not politically, culturally or religious), I would not place Ancient Armenia in Europe (although maybe the modern territories would easily be annexed to a larger Gerogia/Azerbaijan Easternmost European block, considering they are one Caucasian entity, of course that would piss off the Russians), and neither I would place it in Asia.

In natural boundary terms, highly transcontinental

[Artaxat]

I 100% disagree with you on this one, mate. I participate but not because I want to find my roots but because I want to present my roots. I know where my roots are an I know the colour of my blood: karmir,kapuit, tziranaguin ;)
....
Movses Khorenatsi, an Armenian historian (5 th century), and author of the History of Armenia.


1- In this world there is no 100% :D They just found out that matter can exceed the speed of light, after being 100% sure about it for more than 50 years

2-If everyone starts quoting their local historians, we end up in mess (although I myself find shockingly many Truths in Moses Xorenatsis writing, even Archeologists find it very reliable)

3- I appreciate if you present your culture within the proper contexts of the thread as it progresses. When discussing about Geography, you can be helpful for example by posting landscape similarities (in case you want to associate Armenia with Europe, but Moses Xorenatsi does not help us)

[Armin]

If we say that Armenia is fully within the geographical boundaries of Europe (which necessarily assumes that the Caucasus Mountains are not a boundary, as traditionally understood), what major physical features divide Armenia & the Caucasian countries in general from Asia? More specifically, what divides Armenia on a continental basis from Anatolia, Mesopotamia, & Persia?

As I said many times, Armenia is geographically in Europe (which if anything is first of all a cultural and historical concept) and that is not a matter of an opinion, but of fact, established by the United Nations and accepted by all member states and major entities like the European Union.


The use of the term "Europe" has developed gradually throughout history.

What you say about a a “continental division” based on physical features is also flawed, because by this logic the British isles for example, would also be excluded from Europe (on a continental basis) just because they are clearly “divided” by “physical features” (body of water) from the rest of continental Europe. If you really want to be technical there is "strictly" speaking, a Eurasian peninsula which has a "clear" physical outline.

[Artaxat]

As I said many times, Armenia is geographically in Europe (which if anything is first of all a cultural and historical concept) and that is not a matter of an opinion, but of fact, established by the United Nations and accepted by all member states and major entities like the European Union.



What you say about a a “continental division” based on physical features is also flawed, because by this logic the British isles for example, would also be excluded from Europe (on a continental basis) just because they are clearly “divided” by “physical features” (body of water) from the rest of continental Europe. If you really want to be technical there is "strictly" speaking, a Eurasian peninsula which has a "clear" physical outline.

I find it interesting that the borders of Europe will vary depending on which angle you look at it from. The Russians for example would like to see the borders of Europe end even before the North Caucasus.

A European perspective might want to stretch Europe till South Caucasus

Truth is, there is no Europe as a self standing continent, but rather as Armin said a Eurasian block.

So I guess we can't say much about the Armenian Natural Geographic boundaries, except for the fact that it lies at the heart of the Armenian Highlands, Mount Ararat at its center, ecompassing Lake Van, Sevan, Urmia and South Caucasus, borders Europe, Mesopotamia,Persia, Anatolia, Levante,
and Central Asia.


Agreed?

Then we can proceed with the Political geographic classification.
Can you provide the links please?

[Armenian Bishop]

We have selected a step by step procedure, for conducting this inquiry. Is this the best way to pursue it? I would like to get the viewpoint of Artaxat and other members.

Presently, we examine Armenian Civilization, from step 1, to step 2, to step 3, and so forth. This can be quite efficient to take it one step at a time, but, in this Internet Environment, members may find it difficult to wait for the right moment to present their information. Some late arrivals are unable to comment on step 1, after we have proceeded to steps 2, 3, or 4, while other members want to make a premature contribution comment on step 2, 3, or 4, while we are still on step 1.

[Odoacer]

I was about to agree, until I noticed some morphological differences.

This map looks primitive, but can illustrate the idea. The previous posted maps also can be used
http://www.ancientanatolia.com/maps/introduction.map.gif

At the Armenian highlands around lake Van, we find a distinct and complex topographic uplift, which then separates into two complex stretching mountain ranges westwards (Pontus and Taurus), in between these two ranges we find the Anatolian plateau, still at high altitute average (600- 1200m) but topographically less complex. Also climatically drier.

So, we find tectonic boundaries (major faults) as well as vague morphologic boundary, one block splitting into three, logically, it correlates precisely with tectonics.

Where is the physical boundary? The mountain ranges extend completely into Anatolia without something separating them from Armenia.


The link between Armenia and Europe is the Caucasus. Whereas Anatolia is linked to Europe via the Bosphorus. If there was no clear disconnect at the Bosphorus, I would have agreed.

Since there is no clear boundary between Armenia & Anatolia, the Caucasus would also qualify as a "link" to Europe for Anatolia. Of course, there is a clear disconnect at the Greater Caucasus.


In my opinion (so far), both Armenia and Anatolia constitute transcontinental zones (strictly georaphically speaking)

Then Armenia cannot be said to be "fully within European bounds."


Northern Caucasus falls completely within Europe. The boundary between Europe and Asia, is the watershed between North Caucasus and the South (Transcaucasia)

To sum up for now, and please (dear reader) understand we are talking about the Natural map, not political map. The latter also shall be addressed.

I think we can agree now that Historical Armenia is located in a transcontinental area called the Armenian Highlands around Mount Ararat encompassing the three lakes Van, Sevan and Urmia as well as the Southern Caucasus.

Boundaries
North: bounds Europe through North Caucasus
Southwest, South, SouthEast: bounds Levante, Mesopotamia,Persia
West: Anatolia
East: bounds Central Asia through a maritime link (Caspian Sea)

Personally, (only my opinion) geographically speaking (not politically, culturally or religious), I would not place Ancient Armenia in Europe (although maybe the modern territories would easily be annexed to a larger Gerogia/Azerbaijan Easternmost European block, considering they are one Caucasian entity, of course that would piss off the Russians), and neither I would place it in Asia.

In natural boundary terms, highly transcontinental

For me, by the traditional definition of European boundaries, everything south of the Greater Caucasus is fully Asian. Only territories which reach across the Greater Caucasus are truly transcontinental. In this scheme, Armenia is clearly geographically Asian. Traditionally, this is also precisely how it has been regarded, with respect at the very least to its geographical situation.


As I said many times, Armenia is geographically in Europe (which if anything is first of all a cultural and historical concept) and that is not a matter of an opinion, but of fact, established by the United Nations and accepted by all member states and major entities like the European Union.

I've already addressed this argument in the closed thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=632444&postcount=1873):



For the Armenians who keep saying that UNGEGN classifies Armenian as being in Eastern Europe, please pay attention to what is actually said (http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/ungegn/divisions.html):


14. Eastern Europe, Northern and Central Asia Division
Countries

Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Georgia, Kyrgyzstan, Russian Federation, Tajikistan, Ukraine, Uzbekistan

Chair

Mr. V. Boginskiy, Russian Federation

I know I'm not the first to point this out. So, are we to believe now that Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, & Uzbekistan are "in Europe"? Why does Armenia get to be "in Europe" on the basis of this designation, but not the others? Azerbaijan & Georgia at least have some territory extending into the Greater Caucasus. Hell, even Kazahkstan has some territory west of the Ural River, but no one believes Kazakhstan is a European country!

As you can see, "Eastern Europe" is in the same division as "Northern and Central Asia." This says nothing about whether Armenia is in Europe. This is only a loose geographical grouping of nations in neighboring regions, nothing more.


The UNGEGN's purpose is to make recommendations for standardizing geographical designations. It doesn't have any authority to "establish" continental boundaries. In other words, the UNGEGN makes recommendations as to whether the name of China's capital city should be transliterated as Peking or Beijing.

Moreover, the United Nations Statistical Division (http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49regin.htm#asia) designates Armenia in "Western Asia":


145 Western Asia
051 Armenia
031 Azerbaijan
048 Bahrain
196 Cyprus
268 Georgia
368 Iraq
376 Israel
400 Jordan
414 Kuwait
422 Lebanon
275 Occupied Palestinian Territory
512 Oman
634 Qatar
682 Saudi Arabia
760 Syrian Arab Republic
792 Turkey
784 United Arab Emirates
887 Yemen


What you say about a a “continental division” based on physical features is also flawed, because by this logic the British isles for example, would also be excluded from Europe (on a continental basis) just because they are clearly “divided” by “physical features” (body of water) from the rest of continental Europe. If you really want to be technical there is "strictly" speaking, a Eurasian peninsula which has a "clear" physical outline.

There is a difference here, though, insofar as the British Isles are universally acknowledged to be part of the European continent. Armenia does not have such universal acknowledgement. Besides which, this is no help to your position, as you would necessarily end up denying any geographical reality to Europe in the first place. Armenia has no clear physical boundaries separating it from Anatolia or Persia; however, the Greater Caucasus are a clear geographical boundary.

[Artaxat]

Where is the physical boundary? The mountain ranges extend completely into Anatolia without something separating them from Armenia.


You and Armin jumped very quick into POLITICAL boundaries. Let's take this topic step by step to minimize confusion.


Between the Armenian Highlands and Anatolia is a MAJOR geo-physical boundary other than being completely in a separate tectonic block. The Upper Euprates

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Tigr-euph.png

[Armenian Bishop]

You and Armin jumped very quick into POLITICAL boundaries. Let's take this topic step by step to minimize confusion.


Between the Armenian Highlands and Anatolia is a MAJOR geo-physical boundary other than being completely in a separate tectonic block. The Euprates

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Tigr-euph.png

Agreed, and The Armenian Highlands are also at a higher elevation.

As to our step by step procedure: Should we be presenting more than one topic, simultaneously?

[Odoacer]

You and Armin jumped very quick into POLITICAL boundaries. Let's take this topic step by step to minimize confusion.

Between the Armenian Highlands and Anatolia is a MAJOR geo-physical boundary other than being completely in a separate tectonic block. The Euprates

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Tigr-euph.png

Tectonic blocks aren't enough to establish a separation. These are below-ground & invisible. In some cases they create visible boundaries, but what visible boundaries has the Anatolian Plate made between Anatolia & Armenia? The Euphrates, on the other hand, clearly leaves many miles of continuity between Armenia & Anatolia north of its sources. Meanwhile, the Murat Su (Eastern Euphrates) appears to bisect the Armenian Highlands.

[Artaxat]

Tectonic blocks aren't enough to establish a separation. These are below-ground & invisible. In some cases they create visible boundaries, but what visible boundaries has the Anatolian Plate made between Anatolia & Armenia? The Euphrates, on the other hand, clearly leaves many miles of continuity between Armenia & Anatolia north of its sources. Meanwhile, the Murat Su (Eastern Euphrates) appears to bisect the Armenian Highlands.

I see, but I strongly disagree

1- Anatolia and Greater Armenia are two separate tectonic blocks (we agreed on this)
2- Greater Armenia unlike Anatolia is marked with hydrologic features which are water sources of the Euphrates and Tigris and on the Eastern side, Armenian is strongly sealed by the Euphrates
3- The Northern continuity is not my concern because we are talking about the separability between Armenian Highands and Anatolia.
4-Moreover, even if I were to agree with your continuity logic, which I do not, that continuity does not exist, where the Euprates boundary comes to an end, you get the Erzurum mountains which are topographically higher than anatolia.

Look how beatifully the Armenian Highlands stand high above the region, specifically higher than Anatolia (in map is marked by white, nothing to do with snow)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Turkey_topo.jpg

Funny, before we discuss it I did not see any discontinuity, thanks to the interesting debate with you, now I see that Anatolia and Armenian Highlands are totally separate blocks.

[Odoacer]

I see, but I strongly disagree

1- Anatolia and Greater Armenia are two separate tectonic blocks (we agreed on this)
2- Greater Armenia unlike Anatolia is marked with hydrologic features which are water sources of the Euphrates and Tigris and on the Eastern side, Armenian is strongly sealed by the Euphrates
3- The Northern continuity is not my concern because we are talking about the separability between Armenian Highands and Anatolia.
4-Moreover, even if I were to agree with your continuity logic, which I do not, that continuity does not exist, where the Euprates boundary comes to an end, you get the Erzurum mountains which are topographically higher than anatolia.

Look how beatifully the Armenian Highlands stand high above the region, specifically higher than Anatolia (in map is marked by white, nothing to do with snow)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Turkey_topo.jpg

Funny, before we discuss it I did not see any discontinuity, thanks to the interesting debate with you, now I see that Anatolia and Armenian Highlands are totally separate blocks.

1) Plate tectonics is not sufficient. Arabia & India lie on separate tectonic plates, yet they are indisputably part of the Asian continent. Moreover, the Anatolian Plate extends into the Armenian Highlands.

3) Continuity north of the Euphrates' sources is a concern, because it means that the Euphrates alone is not a sufficient as a geographical boundary between Armenia & Anatolia.

4) Some topographical variation does not translate into physical boundaries. That map shows well that the mountains continue in a gradual decline toward Anatolia. There is no clear boundary north of the Euphrates. In stark contrast, the Greater Caucasus form a clear, distinctive boundary:

http://www.treehouse-maps.com/mims/m3p/TFMR064_TurkeyCaucasus.jpg

[Artaxat]

3) Continuity north of the Euphrates' sources is a concern, because it means that the Euphrates alone is not a sufficient as a geographical boundary between Armenia & Anatolia.


I already have stated, there are three levels of discontnuity, tectonic (not visible, agreed,but still are different landmasses,maybe in the future will be visible :D, hydrologic and topographic. True, it is not a sharp cut discontinuity as Armenian Highlands vs. Mesopotamia, but rather the discontinuity occurs at low gradient.

by the way, great map, thank you.

[Armin]

I've already addressed this argument in the closed thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=632444&postcount=1873):

For the Armenians who keep saying that UNGEGN classifies Armenian as being in Eastern Europe, please pay attention to what is actually said:

I know I'm not the first to point this out. So, are we to believe now that Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, & Uzbekistan are "in Europe"? Why does Armenia get to be "in Europe" on the basis of this designation, but not the others? Azerbaijan & Georgia at least have some territory extending into the Greater Caucasus. Hell, even Kazahkstan has some territory west of the Ural River, but no one believes Kazakhstan is a European country!

Actually I have replied to it in that thread, but since you missed it I will repeat it again.

Armenia is within the sub-division of Eastern Europe (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Georgia, Russian Federation, and Ukraine), while countries like Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan are within the sub-division of Northern and Central Asia of the division.

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/ungegn/divisions.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe

Here is the official demarcation of Europe set by the European Union.


European Union
The Multilingual Thesaurus of the European Union (Eurovoc) defines the following countries geographically located in: Central and Eastern Europe: Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Georgia.


Eurovoc is a multilingual thesaurus maintained by the Publications Office of the European Union. It exists in 22 official languages of the European Union. Eurovoc is used by the European Parliament, the Office for Official Publications of the European Union, the national and regional parliaments in Europe, some national government departments, and European organisations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurovoc


There is a difference here, though, insofar as the British Isles are universally acknowledged to be part of the European continent. Armenia does not have such universal acknowledgement. Besides which, this is no help to your position, as you would necessarily end up denying any geographical reality to Europe in the first place. Armenia has no clear physical boundaries separating it from Anatolia or Persia; however, the Greater Caucasus are a clear geographical boundary.

No there is not, I simply pointed out with the above that what you asserted about defined “physical features” on a “continental basis” is not correct and brought the example of the British isles which do not have a common “physical features” that connect them to continental Europe. My point is, as I pointed out in the quote that the concept of Europe ultimately lies in European culture and history (as defined by the Europeans themselves) that is why Armenia and a number of other European countries are regarded as Europe by the Europeans.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

I've been on the Armenian/Turkish border and all of this issues they're speaking about complete different continent and big natural border = all fake. The transition is deffinately smaller than crossing Istambul.

Europe is when we go west to Bosphorus --not to east Kurdistan and Armenia.

[Odoacer]

I already have stated, there are three levels of discontnuity, tectonic (not visible, agreed,but still are different landmasses,maybe in the future will be visible :D, hydrologic and topographic. True, it is not a sharp cut discontinuity as Armenian Highlands vs. Mesopotamia, but rather the discontinuity occurs at low gradient.

by the way, great map, thank you.

Low gradient discontinuity established on multiple grounds which are insufficient in themselves vs. the Greater Caucasus: Which do you think is a more convincing continental boundary?


Actually I have replied to it in that thread, but since you missed it I will repeat it again.

You didn't reply to that particular post, actually. You didn't make any posts in that thread after it.


Armenia is within the sub-division of Eastern Europe (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Georgia, Russian Federation, and Ukraine), while countries like Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan are within the sub-division of Northern and Central Asia of the division.

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/ungegn/divisions.html

I already pointed out to you that this division doesn't specify that Armenia is in "Eastern Europe." You are incorrect.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe

Here is the official demarcation of Europe set by the European Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurovoc

It is true that Eurovoc (http://eurovoc.europa.eu/drupal/?q=request&mturi=http%3A%2F%2Feurovoc.europa.eu%2F100277&language=en&view=mt&ifacelang=en) puts Armenia in the Eastern Europe category, but Eurovoc doesn't say anything about actual physical boundaries. Moreover, the United Nations Statistical Division puts Armenia in Western Asia. So, we have conflicting categorizations. You cannot rely on them.


No there is not, I simply pointed out with the above that what you asserted about defined “physical features” on a “continental basis” is not correct and brought the example of the British isles which do not have a common “physical features” that connect them to continental Europe.

And I've simply pointed out that on this contention, the whole concept of a geographically distinct Europe vanishes into thin air.


My point is, as I pointed out in the quote that the concept of Europe ultimately lies in European culture and history (as defined by the Europeans themselves) that is why Armenia and a number of other European countries are regarded as Europe by the Europeans.

Turkey (excluding Thrace) is also frequently regarded as European. I don't grant those claims any more validity than I grant yours, but if Armenia is fully "within Europe" by culture & history, so too are Canada, the U.S., Australia, etc., since culturally & historically, these are extensions of Europe.

[Artaxat]

Thanks for the link Armin.

Case is most certainly closed

I checked the link myself and only a fool would not be convinced. Thank goodness, no fools around here.

http://i.imgur.com/tZBYm.jpg

Armenia appears clearly on the sixth place in the list of countries of East Europe.

Eurovoc is a multilingual thesaurus maintained by the Publications Office of the European Union.
Eurovoc is used by the European Parliament, the Office for Official Publications of the European Union, the national and regional parliaments in Europe, some national government departments, and European organisations. It serves as the basis for the domain names used in the European Union's terminology database: Inter-Active Terminology for Europe.

Any further discussion of this topic is obviously childish and irrational.

Europe-Armenia link is the question, European sources have highest priority.

It is expected that other organizations having different geo-political agendas will have different classification. That is not of our concern for now.

We have to move to more important and exciting topics.

Verdict: Armenia falls within European territories as seen by European organisations (individuals are free to have their own opinion, freedom of expression is also a European value)

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Northern Middle Easts = we a unhappy big family.

[Armin]

I've been on the Armenian/Turkish border and all of this issues they're speaking about complete different continent and big natural border = all fake. The transition is deffinately smaller than crossing Istambul.

Europe is when we go west to Bosphorus --not to east Kurdistan and Armenia.

Europe is defined by the Europeans themselves and according to that definition Armenia is European (due to its culture and history), while Turkey most certainly is not.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Europe is defined by the Europeans themselves

Where?



and according to that definition Armenia is European (due to its culture and history), while Turkey most certainly is not.

I never said Turkey was European (but Thrace is wholly inside Europe with border directly with Bulgaria and Greece). Armenia has no parts inside Europe. What European nations are your neighbors? Iran? Azerbaijan? Turkey? Georgia?

Armenian highland not Europe (you have to make the Kurds places homeland in Europe too.)

Australia is Europe too?

[Odoacer]

Thanks for the link Armin.

Case is most certainly closed

I checked the link myself and only a fool would not be convinced. Thank goodness, no fools around here.

http://i.imgur.com/tZBYm.jpg

Armenia appears clearly on the sixth place in the list of countries of East Europe.

Eurovoc is a multilingual thesaurus maintained by the Publications Office of the European Union.
Eurovoc is used by the European Parliament, the Office for Official Publications of the European Union, the national and regional parliaments in Europe, some national government departments, and European organisations. It serves as the basis for the domain names used in the European Union's terminology database: Inter-Active Terminology for Europe.

Any further discussion of this topic is obviously childish and irrational.

Europe-Armenia link is the question, European sources have highest priority.

It is expected that other organizations having different geo-political agendas will have different classification. That is not of our concern for now.

We have to move to more important and exciting topics.

Verdict: Armenia falls within European territories as seen by European organisations (individuals are free to have their own opinion, freedom of expression is also a European value)

The Eurovoc designation is political geography, not physical geography. You yourself had wanted to settle the physical question first.

[Artaxat]

Northern Middle Easts = we a unhappy big family.


Alarm: Turkish propaganda machine

They smelled Armenia :D


You guys are really hilarious.

Typical Turkish attitude...civilized discussion, Armenians...attack

Turkey threatens to ‘freeze’ EU ties over Cyprus
It wants to join the European Union but Turkey is threatening to freeze relations with the bloc over the thorny topic of Cyprus.

Ankara is angry over plans by internationally recognised Greek Cypriot authorities to take over the EU’s rotating presidency next July.

Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said that if the Greek Cypriot side took over the EU’s reins and tried to stall Turkey’s negotiations, the reconciliation process on the island would be blocked. He said that if Cyprus assumed the presidency without a solution to the future of the divided island, Turkey’s relations with the EU would be frozen.

A row over a breakaway state on Cyprus recognised only by Turkey has slowed progress in Ankara’s EU accession talks which started in 2005.


Turkey warns France over Armenian genocide law
Turkey has warned France of grave consequences should the French Senate pass a bill today (19 December) that would penalise denial of the massacre of over 1 million Armenians in 1915 by the Ottoman Empire.

Speaking in Libya on Saturday, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan urged France to face its own history before judging the history of others, the Turkish press reports.

Erdoğan's strong reaction came in response to a vote by the French Senate to criminalise denial in France of the so-called Armenian genocide of 1915 and make it punishable by a maximum one-year prison sentence and a €45,000 fine – a punishment that would bring denial of the alleged genocide up to par with denial of the Holocaust.

"Today, nobody talks about the 45,000 Algerian deaths in 1945 or the role of France in the massacre of 800,000 people in Rwanda in 1994,” Erdoğan said.

Turkish officials have warned France of grave consequences should the bill be passed by the French Senate. Erdoğan sent a letter to the French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Friday, warning him of the damage the bill would cause to bilateral relations.

“This bill directly targets the state of the Turkish Republic, the Turkish nation and the Turkish community in France and is seen as hostile,” Erdoğan was quoted as saying in the letter, seen by the Anatolia news agency.

Speaking in a joint press conference with Mustafa Abdul-Jalil, chairman of the Libyan National Transitional Council (NTC), Erdoğan repeated Turkey's official stance regarding the Armenian deaths of 1915 as an historical matter that calls for the judgement of historians and academics rather than as a matter of politics to be voted on in parliaments.

French election strategies?

Ankara has also raised doubts regarding Sarkozy's motives in changing his stance regarding the Turkish-Armenian conflict, speculating that the French president might be seeking votes from the strong Armenian community in France to gain an advantage over his Socialist Party rival, François Hollande.

The Socialist candidate is also a known defender of the “Armenian genocide” and said that he would support a law to make genocide denial punishable by French courts.

“The bill is completely against common sense. The toll [in the case the bill passes into law] will be on French firms conducting business in Turkey,” Turkey's EU Affairs Minister Egemen Bağış said on Saturday (17 December).

Business to suffer

Two days before, Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu had invited executives from French firms in Turkey to his ministry to discuss the possible results of such a law for French investment in the country.

Apparently unmoved by Ankara's warnings, Sarkozy's ruling party reaffirmed its faith in the bill, expressing support for its passage. Lawmakers interviewed by AFP said that they were “determined at this time” that the bill should not return from the Senate, as it did back in 2006 during a first attempt.

France had previously brought the same bill to the agenda five years ago, but the French Senate refused to discuss it even though France recognised the Armenian deaths of 1915 as genocide in 2001.

[Artaxat]

If you don't know the difference between GENOCIDE and WAR, how will you tell the difference between Europe and Asia!?

[Odoacer]

Armenia is within the sub-division of Eastern Europe (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Georgia, Russian Federation, and Ukraine), while countries like Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan are within the sub-division of Northern and Central Asia of the division.

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/ungegn/divisions.html

To show further that UNGEGN's divisions are not especially useful in this discussion, I want to add this quote indicated under "Rules" at that link:


A country shall decide for itself the division to which it wishes to belong. A country may be a member of another division provided the nature of its participation does not change the linguistic/geographical character of the division(s) concerned. An experts may be invited to attend meetings of other divisions in the capacity of observer or consultant.

[Armin]

You didn't reply to that particular post, actually. You didn't make any posts in that thread after it.

I have (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=626150&postcount=1052) replied in that very thread on this issue and you have missed it.




I already pointed out to you that this division doesn't specify that Armenia is in "Eastern Europe." You are incorrect.

Yes it does, because the division is in turn separated into three sub-divisions and Armenia lies within the first (Eastern Europe). The wikipedia quote (which I have included and highlighted) clearly states the Eastern European countries of the sub-division.




It is true that Eurovoc (http://eurovoc.europa.eu/drupal/?q=request&mturi=http%3A%2F%2Feurovoc.europa.eu%2F100277&language=en&view=mt&ifacelang=en) puts Armenia in the Eastern Europe category, but Eurovoc doesn't say anything about actual physical boundaries. Moreover, the United Nations Statistical Division puts Armenia in Western Asia. So, we have conflicting categorizations. You cannot rely on them.

No there is no conflict because the European Union as well as other member states adhere to the United Nations' demarcation as set by the United Nations Groups of Experts on Geographical Names which I have also included with the official Eurovoc demarcation of Europe. As I have said many times geography is shaped by culture and history. Once again the example of the British Isles in this regard is quite apt.




And I've simply pointed out that on this contention, the whole concept of a geographically distinct Europe vanishes into thin air.

Well, I do not want to repeat what I said above, but will say it again, there can be no Europe without European values. If anything Europe is a matter of European culture and civilization. I have said this all along.




Turkey (excluding Thrace) is also frequently regarded as European. I don't grant those claims any more validity than I grant yours, but if Armenia is fully "within Europe" by culture & history, so too are Canada, the U.S., Australia, etc., since culturally & historically, these are extensions of Europe.

Turkey, contrary to Armenia, is not regarded as Europe by the Europeans themselves, precisely because of cultural and historical reasons. The countries that you listed (Canada, the U.S., Australia etc.) are founded by Western Europeans, but there is no common geographical linkage (or very close proximity as is for example the case with Great Britain) to the rest of Europe so of course these countries (and in case of Australia continents) are not Europe but are located in North America and Australia respectively, sharing close ties with Europe because of this historical reality.

[Armin]

The Eurovoc designation is political geography, not physical geography. You yourself had wanted to settle the physical question first.

As I said above, there can be no Europe in terms of geography, without political, cultural and historical reality.

[Armin]

Where?

Are you reading the thread at all or you just go straight to posting your Turkish government propaganda?




I never said Turkey was European (but Thrace is wholly inside Europe with border directly with Bulgaria and Greece). Armenia has no parts inside Europe. What European nations are your neighbors? Iran? Azerbaijan? Turkey? Georgia?

European Union regards Armenia as Europe (while Turkey is not) Armenia is fully integrating into all European Union structures. As far as Turkey goes, the European Union and European leaders have clearly pointed out their stance. Turkey is not Europe and EU does not want Turkey to be within its borders.




Australia is Europe too?

Actually I have answered this question (like the United Nations and EU demarcation of Europe which includes Armenia) and I am not going to repeat the same things for you over and over just because you do not read the thread.

[Artaxat]

Thanks once again for the info you provided. Personally I was not aware that Republic of Armenia is fully under Eastern Europe territory, thanks for shedding light on it.

Again. The geographic controversy is over (I hope).

I will leave it up to you guys to determine next topicofrelevance onArmenian identity. Please let it be a place where we can learn about diverse culture, arts, history.

Make this place a place of learning, I beg you

Ignore the Turkish propaganda.

Always the same topic, we opened a separate thread and they still stick on us like leeches.

And I am sure previously maybe there was nothing Assyrian in the people who were falsifying, it is allTurkish propaganda!

[Odoacer]

I have (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=626150&postcount=1052) replied in that very thread on this issue and you have missed it.

You did not reply to my post. My post was made yesterday, 20 Dec 2011. Yours was made 15 Dec 2011. Please pay attention.


Yes it does, because the division is in turn separated into three sub-divisions and Armenia lies within the first (Eastern Europe). The wikipedia quote (which I have included and highlighted) clearly states the Eastern European countries of the sub-division.

No, the UNGEGN does not specify that Armenia is in Eastern Europe. "Eastern Europe, Central and Northern Europe" is single division. There is no information regarding a breakdown into specific subdivision. The quote from Wikipedia is from Eurovoc, not the UN. That is another source altogether.


No there is no conflict because the European Union as well as other member states adhere to the United Nations' demarcation as set by the United Nations Groups of Experts on Geographical Names

As I quoted just above, the UNGEGN's "Rules" state as follows:


A country shall decide for itself the division to which it wishes to belong. A country may be a member of another division provided the nature of its participation does not change the linguistic/geographical character of the division(s) concerned. An experts may be invited to attend meetings of other divisions in the capacity of observer or consultant.

Moreover, there are other divisions like the "Celtic Division," which includes France and Ireland, which have no geographical commonality save that both are in Europe. How is this as useful or authoritative as you pretend it to be? Again, the UNGEGN's purpose is simply to recommend orthographical standardizations for geographical designations.


Turkey, contrary to Armenia, is not regarded as Europe by the Europeans themselves, precisely because of cultural and historical reasons. The countries that you listed (Canada, the U.S., Australia etc.) are founded by Western Europeans, but there is no common geographical linkage (or very close proximity as is for example the case with Great Britain) to the rest of Europe so of course these countries (and in case of Australia continents) are not Europe but are located in North America and Australia respectively, sharing close ties with Europe because of this historical reality.

So Armenia has close historical & cultural ties with Europe, but lies in Asia, separated from Europe physically by the Greater Caucasus, the long traditional physical border of Europe. Armenia may be counted as European for political geography by the EU, but it surely is not within Europe in terms of physical geography. Neither, for that matter, is Cyprus. If it is, then Anatolia is also physically in Europe, even if it is politically discounted.

[Artaxat]

Our European compatriots still are unaware to which level the Turks are willing to go.

Imagine they organized a large group of whatever in order to stop the French people from defending justice.

Fortunately the French played it neat and refused to offer a conference room for th Ottoman criminals

French hotel denies Turkish delegation a conference room

A hotel in France cancelled a reservation by a Turkish delegation for a conference room without offering any reason for cancellation, private broadcaster NTV reported on its website.

The delegation was made up of prominent representatives of the Turkish Union of Chambers and Commodities Exchanges (TOBB) and the Turkish Industry & Business Association (TÜSİAD). They were travelling to France to campaign against a French motion criminalizing the denial of Armenian genocide claims.

[Artaxat]

So Armenia has close historical & cultural ties with Europe, but lies in Asia, separated from Europe physically by the Greater Caucasus, the long traditional physical border of Europe. Armenia may be counted as European for political geography by the EU, but it surely is not within Europe in terms of physical geography. Neither, for that matter, is Cyprus.

I am fine with that. Politically Armenia is classified as a European country.

Can we proceed to more exciting discssions? or we are stuck here?

[Odoacer]

I am fine with that. Politically Armenia is classified as a European country.

We cannot say that the EU's definition is the absolute final word, except perhaps for EU member states. But if we specify that Armenia is regarded as politically in Europe by the EU, then we can agree.

[Artaxat]

Armenia is regarded as politically in Europe by the EU

I agree on this statement.
I hope others do as well

to avoid further discussion. Pease make Thanks so I take it you agree on the statement :D

[Armin]

You did not reply to my post. My post was made yesterday, 20 Dec 2011. Yours was made 15 Dec 2011. Please pay attention.

I never said I replied to you specifically, but meant I replied on this issue in that thread to another poster and you missed my reply.




No, the UNGEGN does not specify that Armenia is in Eastern Europe. "Eastern Europe, Central and Northern Europe" is single division. There is no information regarding a breakdown into specific subdivision. The quote from Wikipedia is from Eurovoc, not the UN. That is another source altogether.

Yes it does, the wikipedia article on Eastern Europe lists those countries of the division that are listed within its sub-division of Eastern Europe.

They are: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Georgia, Russian Federation, and Ukraine.

Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan, are not listed because they are within the sub-division of Northern and Central Asia.




As I quoted just above, the UNGEGN's "Rules" state as follows:

Moreover, there are other divisions like the "Celtic Division," which includes France and Ireland, which have no geographical commonality save that both are in Europe. How is this as useful or authoritative as you pretend it to be? Again, the UNGEGN's purpose is simply to recommend orthographical standardizations for geographical designations.

UNGEGN sets borders that take into consideration number of factors, cultural and socio-political being quite important, so as I have pointed out, it is not the only deciding factor in this regard. Ultimately, the European Union as the single most pan-European entity is the deciding factor where Europe begins and ends.



So Armenia has close historical & cultural ties with Europe, but lies in Asia, separated from Europe physically by the Greater Caucasus, the long traditional physical border of Europe. Armenia may be counted as European for political geography by the EU, but it surely is not within Europe in terms of physical geography. Neither, for that matter, is Cyprus. If it is, then Anatolia is also physically in Europe, even if it is politically discounted.

No, as I clearly said it, and brought the example of British Isles, the geographical argument is flawed since you are dealing with a Eurasian peninsula if you want to be technical about it. Geography cannot be divorced from culture and history. Britain is European because of its European culture and history, so is Armenia or other nations that are regarded and held as such by Europeans themselves.

[Artavazt]

Can we proceed to more exciting discssions? or we are stuck here?

I remember,there was an article about a geographer considering armenia and georga part of europe on stormfront,after he visited these 2 countries,maybe we should find those articles,it would also be interresting if some one buys this book and see why this georgrapher considers armenia part of europe.

Eastern Europe Road Map

http://www.mapsworldwide.com/itm_img/9984072851.jpg


A double sided road map of Eastern Europe including Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Romania, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan & Western Russia.

Published by: Jana Seta Map Publishers Ltd

ISBN number: 9984073904

Date: 2005

Series: Jana Seta Road Maps

Layout: Folded Map, Scale 1:2 000 000

If available you will be sent the latest edition of the product shown.

Our price £7.95


I will try to find it at my university's library.

[Ushtari]

Europe according to Teh world fact book:


https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/wfbExt/region_eur.html

[Odoacer]

I never said I replied to you specifically, but meant I replied on this issue in that thread to other poster and you missed my reply.

The fact of the matter is that I REPLIED to your reply in that thread. Again, please pay attention.


Yes it does, the wikipedia article on Eastern Europe lists those countries of the division that are listed within its sub-division of Eastern Europe.

They are: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Georgia, Russian Federation, and Ukraine.

Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan, are not listed because they are within the sub-division of Northern and Central Asia.

You are wrong. This is what it says:


The United Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN) was set up to consider the technical problems of domestic standardization of geographical names.[citation needed] The Group is composed of experts from various linguistic/geographical divisions that have been established at the UN Conferences on the Standardization of Geographical Names.
1. Eastern Europe, Northern and Central Asia Division[16]: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Georgia, Russian Federation, and Ukraine

Wikipedia correctly indicates that Armenia is in the "Eastern Europe, Northern and Central Asia Division" of the UNGEGN. It also says the following:


Other agencies of the United Nations (like UNAIDS,[18] UNHCR,[19] ILO[20] or UNICEF)[21] divide Europe into different regions and variously assign various states to those regions.

And I already pointed out to you that the United Nations Statistical Division assigns Armenia to "Western Asia." In short, there is no single, official UN designation for Armenia.


No, as I clearly said it, and brought the example of British Isles, the geographical argument is flawed since you are dealing with a Eurasian peninsula if you want to be technical about it. Geography cannot be divorced from culture and history. Britain is European because of its European culture and history, so is Armenia or other nations that are regarded and held as such by Europeans themselves.

There are no difficulties with the physical boundaries of the British Isles because they do not border anything other than Europe. But the classification of the British Isles is not in question. The question is regarding Armenia. You may ignore the discussion of physical boundaries all you want - it certainly makes it easier to take your position - but it is precisely the physical boundaries which I was discussing. Neither the UNGEGN division of "Eastern Europe, Northern and Central Asia" nor the EU's designation are to do with the physical boundaries of Europe.

[Odoacer]

Europe according to Teh world fact book:


https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/wfbExt/region_eur.html

Yep; it includes Cyprus but not Russia, so it's as much political geography as the others. (Russia is said to be in Central Asia; the note on geography does indicate that the the portion west of the Urals is considered European.)

[Armin]

Europe according to Teh world fact book:


https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/wfbExt/region_eur.html

That maps seems to be a bad leftover (like so many inaccurate maps that we have) from the Cold War. By this map cities like St. Petersburg and Moscow (as all of European Russia) are all outside of Europe.

[Rron]

That maps seems to be a bad leftover (like so many inaccurate maps that we have) from the Cold War. By this map cities like St. Petersburg and Moscow (as all of European Russia) are all outside of Europe.
Which map is acceptable by you?

[Ushtari]

i know very little about Armenia, almost nothing.. but i have a hard time considering a area east of turkey to be within Europe, i barely consider western turkey to be within Europe...


Note that im only speaking of geographic now

[Odoacer]

That maps seems to be a bad leftover (like so many inaccurate maps that we have) from the Cold War. By this map cities like St. Petersburg and Moscow (as all of European Russia) are all outside of Europe.

Yes, political geography; also it states under "Geography":


Northern Asia (the area west of the Urals is considered part of Europe)

So it gives back what it's taken away, in a sense.

[Armin]

The fact of the matter is that I REPLIED to your reply in that thread. Again, please pay attention.

Good that you replied, thank you. I wanted to reply to you as well, but you are right, the thread was closed. I merely pointed out that I have addressed the issue earlier in that thread.




You are wrong. This is what it says:

Wikipedia correctly indicates that Armenia is in the "Eastern Europe, Northern and Central Asia Division" of the UNGEGN. It also says the following:

No I am correct. The listed countries are only those that are within the Eastern Europe sub-division. Otherwise, if that was the case, the wikipedia article on Eastern Europe would also list other countries (Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan etc.), but of course it does not because they are within the sub-divisions of Northern and Central Asia of the "Eastern Europe, Northern and Central Asia Division."




And I already pointed out to you that the United Nations Statistical Division assigns Armenia to "Western Asia." In short, there is no single, official UN designation for Armenia.

Yeah, we also saw a CIA map (as well as a number of other inaccurate maps) that excludes all of Russia as Europe. Ultimately, Europe and the European Union is the deciding factor in all of this and their position is very clear.



There are no difficulties with the physical boundaries of the British Isles because they do not border anything other than Europe. But the classification of the British Isles is not in question. The question is regarding Armenia. You may ignore the discussion of physical boundaries all you want - it certainly makes it easier to take your position - but it is precisely the physical boundaries which I was discussing. Neither the UNGEGN division of "Eastern Europe, Northern and Central Asia" nor the EU's designation are to do with the physical boundaries of Europe.

Actually, the example of the British Isles is a very good one to illustrate my point that Europe cannot be regarded simply as a geographical entity. You have to view it in terms of a cultural and historical perspective to really assign such demarcation since once again if you really want to be technical about it you are dealing with a Eurasian reality which is much more physical than anything. I want to underline a key point that I will continue to make, ultimately, it is the Europeans themselves who are the ones who have decided where Europe ends and begins. This of course once again means European values, culture, tradition and civilization which must be preserved and maintained at all costs.

[Armin]

i know very little about Armenia, almost nothing.. but i have a hard time considering a area east of turkey to be within Europe, i barely consider western turkey to be within Europe...


Note that im only speaking of geographic now

Well mate, I think many of us do not know that much about each others countries so we can actually exchange ideas in a civilized manner and learn a lot about each others cultures. I hope this is what we are here for, at least I know that I am. :thumbs up

[Armin]

Which map is acceptable by you?

Maps that reflect official positions (UN, EU). Of course as I said before EU is crucial because that is a the most important pan-European entity.

[Rron]

Maps that reflect official positions (UN, EU). Of course as I said before EU is crucial because that is a the most important pan-European entity.
Can you show me that please?

[Artaxat]

Can you show me that please?


http://i.imgur.com/tZBYm.jpg

Armenia appears clearly on the sixth place in the list of countries of East Europe.

Eurovoc is a multilingual thesaurus maintained by the Publications Office of the European Union.
Eurovoc is used by the European Parliament, the Office for Official Publications of the European Union, the national and regional parliaments in Europe, some national government departments, and European organisations. It serves as the basis for the domain names used in the European Union's terminology database: Inter-Active Terminology for Europe.

Any further discussion of this topic is obviously childish and irrational.

Europe-Armenia link is the question, European sources have highest priority.

It is expected that other organizations having different geo-political agendas will have different classification. That is not of our concern for now.

We have to move to more important and exciting topics.

Verdict: Armenia falls within European territories as seen by European organisations (individuals are free to have their own opinion, freedom of expression is also a European value)

[Artaxat]

I don't give a dime what the CIA fakt book says, or whatever other amateur cartographer.

Armenia is declared, officially, European territory, By EUROPEANS....

[Armin]

Can you show me that please?

Here is the World Atlas map which reflects the position of UN and (more importantly) EU for example.

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/eunewneb.gif

[Rron]

I don't give a dime what the CIA fakt book says, or whatever other amateur cartographer.

Armenia is declared, officially, European territory, By EUROPEANS....
This doesn't go in this way , we must give dime for every fact which signify reality,what if we dont give a dime too what EuroVoc says?!
Is not on me to judge whether Armenia is or is not European country, also i am not informed enough to have my opinion about your issue, i am here due to interest to know the truth.

[Artaxat]

This doesn't go in this way , we must give dime for every fact which signify reality,what if we dont give a dime too what EuroVoc says?!
Is not on me to judge whether Armenia is or is not European country, also i am not informed enough to have my opinion about your issue, i am here due to interest to know the truth.
My friend, we are all after the Truth.

And have circled now in 10 pages around this point.

The relation of Armenia to Europe is questioned. One then has to give highest priority to Armenian and European sources.

Not to a Central Intelligence Agency!

Ofcourse, the US has its agenda in the Caucasus, Russia has its interests as well.

Then let's bring on African sources...we keep going on and on...


I personally have a Master's in Geography from a European university.

I can argue forever regarding the natural physical boundaries.

But with respect to the political denomination, Armenia is falling under European territory, from a European perspective as well as an Armenian.

An African can tell me no it falls in Africa....no point in further discussion about this point...

[Artaxat]

And by the way, the same source Eurovoc does not include Turkey in Europe.
Because they are looking at it from a Caucasia angle, not Anatolian.

Also they consider I guess cultural components, but yet that does not explain why Azerbaijan is included, we know it's a dictatorship and is Islamic,so there is no cultural games. So mybe their decision tree is strictly geographic.

I also used to consider Armenia a transcontinental, i.e. boundary country. But it seems this is not what the EU considers. Which makes me happy :)

[Artaxat]

we have one Turk around us...beware..Bozkurt_Karabash propaganda machine :D

[Rron]

Cheers to Armenians

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

If you don't know the difference between GENOCIDE and WAR, how will you tell the difference between Europe and Asia!?

I already knew at least one of u would pull that. I always was under the impression the ones who did not know the difference between war and genocide were you. You have been doing this "genocide industry" for much longer than the jews but there are some things you will not admit.

This thing you call "genocide" was nothing but a cleansing of disloyal Armenians within the borders of the Ottoman empire (before the modern Turkish state existed). A huge number of Armenians were cooperating with Russians.

Now let's compare world war II to see if it's comparable with your "genocide":



July 18, 1925: The first phase of Mein Kampf is published. Hitler begins his personal public hate campaign against the entire Jewish race. This is Hitler's beginning to destroy the Jews. This 8 year campaign continued throughout Germany until Hitler came to power in 1933. No Ottoman leader wrote such a book condemning the Armenians and there was no long or short campaign to exterminate the entire Armenian race by any Ottoman leader. There is no comparison on this point between the Nazis and Ottomans.

March 21, 1933: Hitler and his Nazis create special courts to persecute political enemies. No such court was ever established within the Ottoman Empire.

April 1, 1933: marks the date Hitler and his Nazis began their "official" persecution of the Jews. This is the date there was a national boycott in Germany of Jewish business and professional people. The Ottomans never did such a thing to the Armenians.

April 26, 1933: Hitler organized the infamous Gestapo, this "above the law" police force would lead in the Jewish extermination campaigns. The Ottomans never had such a special police force to terrorize the Armenians.

October 28, 1938: the first Jews were deported just because they were Jews. The Ottomans never deported anyone because of race. What the Ottomans did was deport Armenians from only one part of their empire for being disloyal citizens who were actively helping the invading Russians. The Jews never helped anyone invade Germany. There is no way anyone can compare the Jews to Armenians!


Armenian "genocide" is a total misnomer as it did not target Armenians as an ethnic group, and the world genocide is not aplicable for the same reason. A more accurate name would be "Political cleansing of disroyal citizens."

[Armin]

Cheers to Armenians

Thanks mate. :thumb001:

[Artaxat]

Turko propaganda machine Activated (with blond chicks) :D

[Padre Organtino]

So in addition to Armenian Nordicists there's now a Turkish one?:D

[Artaxat]

Now that Geographic identity is over.

Next either we can pass to
-DNA
-History/origins
-ethnogenesis

I'm off to bed...have fun..be respectul :)
and don't bother much about Padre, he likes Armenians (I am sure :P)

[Armin]

Turko propaganda machine Activated (with blond chicks) :D

Also with Pan-Turkist politics (MHP) which have their goal the unification of all Turkic peoples in the "Great Turan" at the expense of first of all European peoples.


http://www.itusozluk.com/image/turan-haritasi_43263.jpg

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Turko propaganda machine Activated (with blond chicks) :D

Only one is blond: Turkish people are diverse:

http://img2.blogcu.com/images/c/i/n/cinerockw/y1purt3m6bfwhlgvvnwgvkr64hhbluctslaslklo4re4blg_bk v0nbgl0tyrwftxi8ag__c5vitaf4.jpg

[Artaxat]

Only one is blond: Turkish people are diverse:



Ignore the Troll

Not even a Turk, probably just one of the banned Arabs who wants to provoke.

pity :coffee:

[Artavazt]

So in addition to Armenian Nordicists there's now a Turkish one?:D

Were not nordicists.
But were against those who assume that every nordic armenian is mixed with other europeans.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Were not nordicists.
But were against those who assume that every nordic armenian is mixed with other europeans.

Can you show me an example of a Nordic Armenian?

[Artavazt]

Ignore the Troll

Not even a Turk, probably just one of the banned Arabs who wants to provoke.

pity :coffee:



I personaly dont consider him troll.

Hes just a turk,and behaving like one.

The trolls are the assyrians that are prettending to be something their not with the support of some leftist european scum.

[Artaxat]

why do they come here if they are Turk?

[Artavazt]

Can you show me an example of a Nordic Armenian?

Look at the other thread about armenians/georgians.

I posted many examples,and im sure that you were seeing them all,i know many of these pure nordic armenian that i posted their pictures personaly,plus i posted some pictures of old armenian kings,just see my last post.

[Artavazt]

why do they come here if they are Turk?

Turks are somehow closer to europeans than assyrians,not that im saying that their europeans or should be considered as one,but the point is that its useless to ask this question before asking about assyrians.

[Hess]

First one Armenian comes, then 15 more come. I can only guess that the arrival of this Karabash guy will be followed by the prompt arrival of 15 more Turks and then we will have an all out Armeno-Turkish war on a European preservationist forum :coffee:

Anyway, I have a quick question for our esteemed Armenian members- Which ethnic group do you feel the closest to? For example, Russians are close to Ukrainians and Belorussians, Croats are close to Serbs and Bosnians, the Swedish are close to Norwegians and Danes,etc.

your turn.

[Artaxat]

Artavazd, you really piss me off, why do you even reply to the turko?

[Padre Organtino]

Were not nordicists.
But were against those who assume that every nordic armenian is mixed with other europeans.

"Nordic" is a term that refers to the specific set of countries. If you meant light-pigmented people - then of course there are some among Armenians. Their facial features are still rather different from Euro ones (mostly local variation of Caucasions). European component in Armenians generally comes in form of East Meds and less frequently Pontids. Anyway, if you want to believe in your genetic europeanness - fine but don't complain when others don't take you seriously.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Look at the other thread about armenians/georgians.

I posted many examples,and im sure that you were seeing them all,i know many of these pure nordic armenian that i posted their pictures personaly,plus i posted some pictures of old armenian kings,just see my last post.

All of these people look like part Russian, the Armenians or people of Armenian ancestry I'm used to see don't look like that, despite a few can have light hair (just like Turks and other populations, I have some Kurdish, Laz friends with light hair.)

[Artaxat]

First one Armenian comes, then 15 more come. I can only guess that the arrival of this Karabash guy will be followed by the prompt arrival of 15 more Turks and then we will have an all out Armeno-Turkish war on a European preservationist forum :coffee:

Anyway, I have a quick question for our esteemed Armenian members- Which ethnic group do you feel the closest to? For example, Russians are close to Ukrainians and Belorussians, Croats are close to Serbs and Bosnians, the Swedish are close to Norwegians and Danes,etc.

your turn.


I personally feel close to everyone, just like Transhumanist :thumb001:

On aserious note, I feel very distant to Ruskies or East Europeans, love Italians, Germans, Swiss (ok they are different) ...French ...occasionally

Anyway most people think I am German (from the looks)

point is, you can't hit that kind of question to All Armenians, depends if they are Diaspora, or Armenians in Armenia, also where they have lived...

[Padre Organtino]

First one Armenian comes, then 15 more come. I can only guess that the arrival of this Karabash guy will be followed by the prompt arrival of 15 more Turks and then we will have an all out Armeno-Turkish war on a European preservationist forum :coffee:

Anyway, I have a quick question for our esteemed Armenian members- Which ethnic group do you feel the closest to? For example, Russians are close to Ukrainians and Belorussians, Croats are close to Serbs and Bosnians, the Swedish are close to Norwegians and Danes,etc.

your turn.

Hm, Cros like to sort of distant themselves from Balkans and align with Slovenians and Western Europeans. At least that was my impression of them. Maybe its wrong.

[Artavazt]

All of these people look like part Russian, the Armenians or people of Armenian ancestry I'm used to see don't look like that, despite a few can have light hair (just like Turks and other populations, I have some Kurdish, Laz friends with light hair.)


Most of them look germanic not slavic.
Beside that here is a proof that there are nordic armenians of pure armenian ancestry,


"Blonds are found occasionally among persons of purely Armenian ancestry."

Source: Up from the Ape - Page 602 by Earnest Albert Hooton

[Armin]

First one Armenian comes, then 15 more come. I can only guess that the arrival of this Karabash guy will be followed by the prompt arrival of 15 more Turks and then we will have an all out Armeno-Turkish war on a European preservationist forum :coffee:

Anyway, I have a quick question for our esteemed Armenian members- Which ethnic group do you feel the closest to? For example, Russians are close to Ukrainians and Belorussians, Croats are close to Serbs and Bosnians, the Swedish are close to Norwegians and Danes,etc.

your turn.

Speaking for myself (and I think for many Armenians) I feel the greatest kinship to Greeks, both the Pontic Greeks and the mainland Greeks. This is based not only on our common origin, but also of a long history together within the Byzantine realm when the Eastern Roman Empire was led by Greeks and Armenians.

[Artavazt]

Artavazd, you really piss me off, why do you even reply to the turko?

Why your were replying to assyrians (and thanking their posts sometimes) ?

Why did you thank the mod that banned me ?

[Artaxat]

Hm, Cros like to sort of distant themselves from Balkans and align with Slovenians and Western Europeans. At least that was my impression of them. Maybe its wrong.

Not true. At least the distancing part. Again, depends, Armenian but from where?

I myself know a few folks from Balkans, worked with them, had a great experience.

[Padre Organtino]

Most of them look germanic not slavic.
Beside that here is a proof that there are nordic armenians of pure armenian ancestry,


"Blonds are found occasionally among persons of purely Armenian ancestry."

Source: Up from the Ape - Page 602 by Earnest Albert Hooton

Blond does not equal Nordid. Why do you have such an obsession with pigmentation? Spaniards are way more European than Turks but they probably have even less light-pigmented people.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Most of them look germanic not slavic.
Beside that here is a proof that there are nordic armenians of pure armenian ancestry,

Nope, I've never seen an Armenian that looks Germanic... I think that's quite an stretch... and blond hair doesn't prove Nordic ancestry or type. Atatürk was blond, but don't look very Nordic:

http://files.myopera.com/polox/albums/4139042/ataturk%20(290).jpg





"Blonds are found occasionally among persons of purely Armenian ancestry."

Source: Up from the Ape - Page 602 by Earnest Albert Hooton

I don't disagree with that, they are also found ocasionally on all the Caucasus/anatolia vicinity and even further South.

[Artavazt]

"Nordic" is a term that refers to the specific set of countries. If you meant light-pigmented people - then of course there are some among Armenians. Their facial features are still rather different from Euro ones (mostly local variation of Caucasions). European component in Armenians generally comes in form of East Meds and less frequently Pontids. Anyway, if you want to believe in your genetic europeanness - fine but don't complain when others don't take you seriously.


Of course thats just your opinion

By Carleton S. Coon, The Races of Europe(Chapter VI, section 5) and

Ewald Banse, Nordic Race in Armenia and Northern Iran
http://www.girls.am/nordische-race-in-armenia.html

[Artaxat]

Why your were replying to assyrians (and thanking their posts sometimes) ?

Why did you thank the mod that banned me ?

:D

neroghutyun per jan...you can go ahead with the turko

you see, if you keep replying to turko, we will get ataturk pictures in an Armenian thread...good job!

[Artavazt]

Nope, I've never seen an Armenian that looks Germanic....

Thats your problem.

[Padre Organtino]

Of course thats just your opinion

By Carleton S. Coon, The Races of Europe(Chapter VI, section 5) and

Ewald Banse, Nordic Race in Armenia and Northern Iran
http://www.girls.am/nordische-race-in-armenia.html

Carleton S. Coon is very outdated. It's considered rather bad to refer to him among modern anthrospecialists.

[Artavazt]

Carleton S. Coon is very outdated. It's considered rather bad to refer to him among modern anthrospecialists.

So you are the new one ?

[Hess]

Hm, Cros like to sort of distant themselves from Balkans and align with Slovenians and Western Europeans. At least that was my impression of them. Maybe its wrong.

Some cros do that but the reality is that they still have more in common with South Slavs than they do with central Europeans (even though they have plenty in common with them as well)

[Padre Organtino]

So you are the new one ?

No, you should ask people who are knowledgeable like Agrippa on authors that are considered best now.

[Padre Organtino]

Some cros do that but the reality is that they still have more in common with South Slavs than they do with central Europeans (even though they have plenty in common with them as well)

Ok. I see. I personally feel more connected to Balkans and Eastern Slavs (the latter probably due to growing up there). Not sure they share the same sentiment towards me:p

[Padre Organtino]

And to clear things up I don't deny Armenian Genocide:coffee:

[Rron]

Sorry i am off topic but i have a question for Armenians what is your opinion about Kosovo,do you support our independence, because one Armenian member on another thread said me that she support Serbia, and want Kosovo being reunited with Serbia, i remembered just now what she said me.

[Artaxat]

Ok. I see. I personally feel more connected to Balkans and Eastern Slavs (the latter probably due to growing up there). Not usre they share the same sentiment towards me:p

I think you feel most connected to Armenians so that you keep hanging around with us :D makes me glad though.

Cheers to Hess. Good man indeed.

I make peace before going to sleep :p

[Artavazt]

Sorry i am off topic but i have a question for Armenians what is your opinion about Kosovo,do you support our independence, because one Armenian member on another thread said me that she support Serbia, and want Kosovo being reunited with Serbia, i remembered just now what she said me.

Let me assure you that most of armenians since 2007/2006 are neutral regarding balkan conflicts.

[Padre Organtino]

I think you feel most connected to Armenians so that you keep hanging around with us :D makes me glad though.

Cheers to Hess. Good man indeed.

I make peace before going to sleep :p

If Turks open post about them being the purest East Asians in the world I'll also spend there a large amount of time.

[Artavazt]

If Turks open post about them being the purest East Asians in the world I'll also spend there a large amount of time.

Yeah,and you will probably support and deffend them,we dont have doubt about it.

[Odoacer]

No I am correct. The listed countries are only those that are within the Eastern Europe sub-division. Otherwise, if that was the case, the wikipedia article on Eastern Europe would also list other countries (Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan etc.), but of course it does not because they are within the sub-divisions of Northern and Central Asia of the "Eastern Europe, Northern and Central Asia Division."

There is no "Eastern Europe" subdivision recognized by the UNGEGN. Wikipedia correctly states that Armenia is in the "Eastern Europe, Northern and Central Asia Division." Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, & Uzbekistan aren't mentioned simply because no one regards them as European. Some do regard Armenia as European, but the UNGEGN does not anywhere provide any specification that Armenia is within Eastern Europe. And none of this says anything in particular about geographical locations in any case, since several of the UNGEGN's divisions have nothing at all to do with geography (e.g. Celtic, Dutch- and German-Speaking, French-Speaking, Portuguese-Speaking, Romano-Hellenic). Furthermore, the decision as to which division a country is assigned is left to the country itself. And finally, different agencies assign Armenia to different areas altogether, as the United Nations Statistical Division assigns Armenia to Western Asia (a point which you have consistently ignored). So citing the UNGEGN divisions to obtain a definition of which countries are part of Europe is a fruitless endeavor.


Yeah, we also saw a CIA map (as well as a number of other inaccurate maps) that excludes all of Russia as Europe. Ultimately, Europe and the European Union is the deciding factor in all of this and their position is very clear.

The World Factbook map does not include Russia, but as I pointed out, in describing the geography of Russia, the World Factbook states that the territory west of the Urals is considered part of Europe. Moreover, why the EU should be the deciding party is really beyond me. The EU doesn't represent all of Europe, & they also include Cyprus (like the World Factbook, for that matter), a country which is decidely Asian in physical geography, in addition to half-Turkish culturally.


Actually, the example of the British Isles is a very good one to illustrate my point that Europe cannot be regarded simply as a geographical entity. You have to view it in terms of a cultural and historical perspective to really assign such demarcation since once again if you really want to be technical about it you are dealing with a Eurasian reality which is much more physical than anything.

Your point about the British Isles is beside the point. The British Isles don't border anything else. To say that the British Isles are in Europe is simply a matter of seeing that they are not large enough in themselves to constitute a separate continent, & they are closest to Europe; ergo, they are part of the European continent. Armenia doesn't have that luxury. Armenia clearly has borders with non-European nations, & there are not distinct physical boundaries separating Armenia from those nations. Again, your position makes Europe simply a non-geographical entity.

[Vorsord]

Sorry i am off topic but i have a question for Armenians what is your opinion about Kosovo,do you support our independence, because one Armenian member on another thread said me that she support Serbia, and want Kosovo being reunited with Serbia, i remembered just now what she said me.

Do Albanians support independance of Nagorno Karabakh Republic, recognize Armenian Genocide, admit Armenian rights on Turkish occupied Western Armenian territories? :rolleyes:
Every coin has it's back side yes my friend?:) Anyway, I have nothing against Albanians, father of mine even has some Albanian friends with whom he worked few years ago and I have heard only good things about them.

[Artaxat]

Sorry i am off topic but i have a question for Armenians what is your opinion about Kosovo,do you support our independence, because one Armenian member on another thread said me that she support Serbia, and want Kosovo being reunited with Serbia, i remembered just now what she said me.

Whoever wants Freedom and fights for it, deserves it.

I support all people in this world for their quest for independance.

But when a unified people, is divided and conquered by external enemies, it can be a problem.

Did you or your parents find yourselves and Serbs as a unified people? vice versa?

[Rron]

Do Albanians support independance of Nagorno Karabakh Republic, recognize Armenian Genocide, admit Armenian rights on Turkish occupied Western Armenian territories? :rolleyes:
Every coin has it's back side yes my friend?:) Anyway, I have nothing against Albanians, father of mine even has some Albanian friends with whom he worked few years ago and I have heard only good things about them.
Why you are answering me with question , answer me yes or no.



Ps: Armenian genocide is historical fact .

[Padre Organtino]

Yeah,and you will probably support and deffend them,we dont have doubt about it.

Lol, why should I? Seriously, what's with you binary view of the world? Everyone who does not agree with stupid things you try to promote is automatically a friend of your enemies?:confused: If anything I am on Armenian side in their issues with Turks but this does not mean I will support anything you claim (especially since you are not really representtative of Armenians).

[Vorsord]

Why you are answering me with question , answer me yes or no.



Ps: Armenian genocide is historical fact .

Because as you noted there was an Armenian girl siding with Serbians, and I have met many Albanians in forums siding with Turks against Armenians and Greeks.

[Odoacer]

The trolls are the assyrians that are prettending to be something their not with the support of some leftist european scum.

Which ones are the leftist European scum?

[Rron]

Because as you noted there was an Armenian girl siding with Serbians, and I have met many Albanians in forums siding with Turks against Armenians and Greeks.
You are still not answering me!!

[Hess]

Which ones are the leftist European scum?

well it can't be me because I was already identified as a hidden Turk. I tell you, nothing gets by those perceptive ARmenians.

[Artaxat]

RRon

What is your feeling about Serbs?

Do Albanians feel an ethnic distance or religious to Serbs?

I never met an Albanian, andI wouldappreciate an honest answer, before being able to make a comment

[Rron]

Did you or your parents find yourselves and Serbs as a unified people? vice versa?
Never

[Vorsord]

You are still not answering me!!

There can't be only yes and no. I am neutral, I respect and Serbs and Albanians and I hope you will solve that conflict without war (again).

[Artaxat]

Never

Is it a religious, political or ethnic distance you feel from Serbs.

[Artavazt]

well it can't be me because I was already identified as a hidden Turk. I tell you, nothing gets by those perceptive ARmenians.

No one has called you a hidden turk.
You got classified as central asian/part turanian by few other non armenian posters.
You came in the middle of the fight between armenians and middle easterns,and started to complain about some criminals,so armenians had to remind you about what other have called you.Cause you choosed wrong place and wrong time to complain about armenian criminals.You did the same thing many times before,yet no one called you anything.

And think about it,how would you fell if a group of middle eastern sand niggers come and attack your nation calling you (mongoloid avars) which is very common insult against croats,and then if i jump in the middle of the fight and say "no croats are geneticaly close to serbs but their criminal behaviour is like the behaviour of avars".


I was reffering to some posters that post on bio diversity forum.

[Artaxat]

There can't be only yes and no. I am neutral, I respect and Serbs and Albanians and I hope you will solve that conflict without war (again).

As an Armenian with a history of 4000 years, battles, conquests, wars, genocide, you know very well conflicts don't get solved without (war) :(

[Rron]

Is it a religious, political or ethnic distance you feel from Serbs.


RRon

What is your feeling about Serbs?

Do Albanians feel an ethnic distance or religious to Serbs?

I never met an Albanian, andI wouldappreciate an honest answer, before being able to make a comment
Shortly, yes we have ethnic distance with serbs, we are native balkan people , direct descendants of Illyrians.
We were occupied by them, Kosova was annexed by serbs finally in 1912.

[Vorsord]

As an Armenian with a history of 4000 years, battles, conquests, wars, genocide, you know very well conflicts don't get solved without (war) :(

I have to admit that you are right.

[Artaxat]

Shortly, we have ethnic distance with serbs we are native balkan people , direct descendants of Illyrians.
We were occupied by them, Kosova was annexed by serbs finally in 1912.

Then you have rightfully gained your freedom.

I will read more about the history and the conflict. And can speak my opinion from a better informed position.

But i remember that Nagorno Karabakh president always refers to Kosovo example for the many unrecognized areas out there struggling for their independance.

Sensitive topics indeed.

Let us not serve any foreignors, but only the true God, above all, have faith in yourself. Live free and prosper brother

[Hess]

No one has called you a hidden turk.
You got classified as central asian/part turanian by many other non armenian posters.
You came in the middle of the fight between armenians and middle easterns,and started to complain about some criminals,so armenians had to remind you about what other have called you.Cause you choosed wrong place and wrong time to complain about armenian criminals.You did the same thing many times before,yet no one called you anything.

And think about it,how would you fell if a group of middle eastern sand niggers come and attack your nation calling you (mongoloid avars) which is very common insult against croats,and then if i jump in the middle of the fight and say "no croats are geneticaly close to serbs but their criminal behaviour is like the behaviour of avars".


I was reffering to some posters that post on bio diversity forum.

"Many"? that's just simply untrue. I got classified as "central asian with a slight mongoloid look" (lol) by one new poster, that's it.

The other one who classified me as part Turanid told me I could fit in Hungary, which I take as a compliment because it is unquestionably a European country (unlike Armenia).

No reason to exaggerate, mate :thumb001:

[Artavazt]

"Many"? that's just simply untrue. I got classified as "central asian with a slight mongoloid look" (lol) by one new poster, that's it.

The other one who classified me as part Turanid told me I could fit in Hungary :

Thats not the point,and you obviously dont look asian,but i just tried to explain why armenians said that to you.

[Hess]

Thats not the point i think,and you obviously dont look asian,but i just tried to explain why armenians said like that to you.

I'm sorry but that's still not a good excuse. I never insulted any of you personally so it was extremely inappropriate for Nairi and some others to start talking about me on a personal level (just like you do with all the others who dare disagree with you).

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Why you are answering me with question , answer me yes or no.



Ps: Armenian genocide is historical fact .

It is not a fact: when a section of an ethnic group starts collaborating with outsiders (in this case Russians) and attack your civilian population (Armenians revolted against Turkish and Kurdish civilians first) you have to react. Armenians were never targeted by being Armenians, Armenians were not considered sub-humans by the Ottoman power, and there were never laws designed against them. It just happened that most of these traitors happened to be Armenians and they had to be shut down.

Armenians were not targeted just by being Armenians.

[Nairi]

So, now we have a Turk posting pictures of Turks on Armenian thread, openly denying Genocide on Europan forum and the same trolls as non Indo-European Georgian telling us all propaganda they make in internet...

Until Mods sort all this out no Armenian should post. This is European forum and we are here to interact with Europeans.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

So, now we have a Turk posting pictures of Turks on Armenian thread, openly denying Genocide on Europan forum and the same trolls as non Indo-European Georgian telling us all propaganda they make in internet...

Until Mods sort all this out no Armenian should post. This is European forum and we are here to interact with Europeans.

Since when are Armenians the bane of Europeanness?. Geographically, we're more European than Armenia (4% of Turkish territory is inside Europe, including one of our main cities.) And culturally this is arguably. I personally don't find Armenian culture and music very different from mine.

Not even Turkey is considered Europe so why would a territory further east than us be considered "European?" It don't make sense.

[Zephyr]

Wow. I expect Farrakhan to register at any time now.

[Nairi]

Since when are Armenians the bane of Europeanness?. Geographically, we're more European than Armenia (4% of Turkish territory is inside Europe, including one of our main cities.) And culturally this is arguably. I personally don't find Armenian culture and music very different from mine.

Not even Turkey is considered Europe so why would a territory further east than us be considered "European?" It don't make sense.

You have nothing of yours, everythng is stolen from Armenians,Greeks,Balksans-people,culture,etc.Period.

[Nairi]

double post.

[Artavazt]

I'm sorry but that's still not a good excuse. I never insulted any of you personally so it was extremely inappropriate for Nairi and some others to start talking about me on a personal level (just like you do with all the others who dare disagree with you).

To be honest this behaviour is very common among racists,its not exclusive for armenians,but maybe many armenians here come from forums like SF:D.
Some one called a half german half polish man "middle eastern" and accused him looking like the president of syria,though he can pass as swedish.
So take it easy.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

To be honest this behaviour is very common among racists,its not exclusive for armenians,but maybe many armenians here come from forums like SF:D.
Some one called a half german half polish man "middle eastern" and accused him looking like the president of syria,though he can pass as swedish.
So take it easy.

I would have never guessed :)

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

You have nothing of yours, everythng is stolen from Armenians,Greeks,Balksans-people,culture,etc.Period.

Nope. Turkish culture is the synthesis of Anatolia and we're the successors of all previous ethnic groups and local cultures. The only difference is that our language is a relatively new introduction.

[Rron]

It is not a fact: when a section of an ethnic group starts collaborating with outsiders (in this case Russians) and attack your civilian population (Armenians revolted against Turkish and Kurdish civilians first) you have to react. Armenians were never targeted by being Armenians, Armenians were not considered sub-humans by the Ottoman power, and there were never laws designed against them. It just happened that most of these traitors happened to be Armenians and they had to be shut down.

Armenians were not targeted just by being Armenians.


First i am totaly out of Armeno-Turkish issue , i am not interested about your relations so i will only only reply about that what is consider genocide,

Bozkurt


By 'genocide' we mean the destruction of an ethnic group . . . . Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups . . .. -Raphael Lemkin


United Nations General Assembly Resolution 96 (I) (11 December)
Genocide is a denial of the right of existence of entire human groups, as homicide is the denial of the right to live of individual human beings; such denial of the right of existence shocks the conscience of mankind, ... and is contrary to moral law and to the spirit and aims of the United Nations. ...

The General Assembly, therefore, affirms that genocide is a crime under international law ... whether the crime is committed on religious, racial, political or any other grounds ...[9]


etc etc etc definitions

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

First i am totaly out of Armeno-Turkish issue , i am not interested about your relations so i will only only reply about that what is consider genocide,

Bozkurt

-Raphael Lemkin

[quote]
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 96 (I) (11 December) Genocide is a denial of the right of existence of entire human groups, as homicide is the denial of the right to live of individual human beings; such denial of the right of existence shocks the conscience of mankind, ... and is contrary to moral law and to the spirit and aims of the United Nations. ...

The General Assembly, therefore, affirms that genocide is a crime under international law ... whether the crime is committed on religious, racial, political or any other grounds ...[9]
quote]

etc etc etc definitions

I will put you an example: Imagine a section of Serbs (but not all) in Kosova start plotting against the independ government and are colaborating with Serbia. These Serbs then massacre a number of Albanian civilians. Kosovar government decides to take action against the Serb rebels but not the whole Serb population.

Is that genocide for you? Because that's exactly what happened in our case.

[Rron]

double post edited

[Rron]

Buzkurt i said i am not interested on your political issues between both of your countries, but it was genocide against Armenians

[Nairi]

All trolls posting on "Armenains and Middle eastern Christians" thread were explaining their presence there by " this is not only about Armenians but also Middle eastern Christians" ( while they were only talking/attacking Armenians).

Now I opened a thread which is exclusively about Middle eastern Christians and nobody is interested, isn't that surprising???

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38577

I will repeat, Armenians are not interested in communication with non Indo-European Georgians, Turks,Northern Caucasians, all these groups of people are active part of all Pan Caucasus/Pan Turan forums which I personally hate and never post there. All these groups hate the fact of Armenians being Indo-European and being accepted by many Europeans. They need to distance Armenians from Europe because unlike some Europeans they know for a fact Armenia is the last outpost of Europe in our region! They also make propaganda on Pan Caucasus forums claiming Armenians are not native to South Caucasus trying to push us into Middle East since they know we don't belong there and will be eaten alive by radical Muslims which will weaken Europe because Armenians are the biggest supporters of Europe!

The Passing of the Great Race

By Madison Grant

The Armenians, have resisted stoutly the pressure of Islam to force them away from their ancient Christian faith. This people really represents the last outpost of Europe toward the Mohammedan East and constitutes the best remaining medium through which Western ideals and culture can be introduced into Asia.

This started as a serious and interesting thread and again turned into mess due to the efforst of a Muslim Turk and non Indo-European Georgian being thanked by Northern Caucasian Bloodraven.
Yes, I know Hungarians (Dario Organtino) and Finns are also non Indo-European but they are in Europe proper, so obsession of this Georgian with Armenians has deeper roots.


I have no interest in these groups and my interests lie exclusively in Europe.

Mods should start sorting this thread out...

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Buzkurt i said i am not interested on your political issues between both of your countries, but it was genocide against Armenians

Then the independence of Kosova and further elimination of Serbian power is also genocide. You have to be consistent.

[Artatama]

http://loosavor.org

Armenia - Stone Worked to the Bone

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/33266/resim_110_kopya_2.jpg

Khor Virab Monastery With Mount Ararat in the background

http://sacredsites.com/europe/armenia/images/pagan-temple-garni-01-500.jpg

Garni Temple 1st Century AD

Vahan:The temple was constructed in the 1st century AD by the King Tiridates I of Armenia and probably funded with money the king received from emperor Nero during his visit to Rome. The temple was most likely dedicated to the Hellenistic god Mithras. The roof is supported by 24 columns with Ionic capitals and Attic basements. Unlike other Greco-Roman temples, it is made of basalt. In 1679 it was destroyed by an earthquake. Most of the original pieces remained at the site until the 20th century, allowing the building to be reconstructed between 1969 and 1979.

From pre-Christian, pagan times... It's Greek style. It was a time of cross-influence, an exchange of building styles. They had similar gods, just the names were different. For example Venus in Armenia was Anahit. In Armenia there was no marble, so they built it from basalt, which makes it so unique. If you go to Sicily there is a Parthenon, but built from completely different stone... Most of these pagan temples were turned into Christian temples, but this one stayed as it was. It was also destroyed by an earthquake, because there are a lot of serious earthquakes in Armenia, and it wasn't until the eighties that they rebuilt it, piece by piece...

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Zvartnots Cathedral 641-661


Vahan:

One of the first Christian temples in Armenia, destroyed by a huge earthquake. This temple is quite unusual for being round

Between 643 and 652 the Katholikos Nerses III (nicknamed the builder) built a majestic St. George cathedral at the place where a meeting between king Trdat III and Gregory the Illuminator was supposed to have taken place. In 930 the church was ruined by an earthquake, and remained buried until its rediscovery in the early 20th century.

Vahan:

Later, after the middle ages, the Armenians started building temples and monasteries that were designed to be resistant to earthquakes


http://templeschurches.com/wp-content/uploads/haghpat-monastery-5.jpg

Haghpat Monastery 10th-13th Century
Haghpat Armeniapedia Entry
Vahan:

It's another complex - there is a temple, there was an observatory here in the Middle Ages, cells where monks were isolated. There are four stages of its building. The monks developed it over the years... The site probably dates back to pre-Christian times... When the Turks invaded many of these monasteries were burnt - you can see here that the roof is burnt, but by this time most of the monasteries were built entirely from stone, so that they would survive, no matter what happened. They strengthened these buildings so they could withstand anything, so that they became virtually indestructible. If they had known that there were going to be such things as nuclear bombs, they probably would have built them underground! Both the monks and the buildings were toughened up because they were threatened from all sides.


Kapuściński:

In the year 301, during the reign of the emperor of the Armenians Tiridates III Arashakuni, Armenia adopts Christianity. It is the first country in the world in which Christianity attains the rank of state religion. Conflict hangs in the air: neighbouring Persia professes Zoroastrianism, hostile to Christianity, and from the south Islam will soon draw near, hostile to both. The epoch of unleashed fanaticisms begins, of religious massacres, sectarianism, schisms, medieval madness. And Armenia enters this epoch. Armenians have their church, which is called the Holy Apostolic Armenian Church. In the centuries-long feud between the Vatican and Byzantium, they occupied a middle ground - somewhat closer, however, to the Vatican. That is why, although they belonged to the group of churches practicing the Greek rite, in Constantinople they were counted among those who had severed themselves - among the heretics even. "Their rite," Runciman reports, "diverged in many particulars from the Greek. They readily offered bloody animal sacrifices, they began the great feast on the Septuagesima, fasted on Saturdays, and above all used unleavened bread in the Eucharist." Because of this bread, on which they heretically insisted, they were contemptuously called "the unleavened." (Imperium 1993, translated by Klara Glowczeska)

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Tatev Monastery, 9th-17th century
Tatev Monastery Armeniapedia Entry
Vahan:

Places where monks isolated themselves off from the rest of the world... the monastery complexes are built in the most inaccessible places. They are difficult to get to today, so you can imagine what it was like then... You had to get past all these chasms and precipices in order to get to them

Vahan:

Armenia is like one huge piece of tuff. Tuff is a beautiful volcanic rock that comes in many different colours - red, brown, light blue... This is one of the things that make the architecture of Armenia unique.

TourArmenia:

Armenia holds some 3 billion cubic meters of tuff, an easily cut yet resilient material, and most buildings from the early Christian period forward are made from the orange, red, gold and black varieties of tuff. Other stone in the country include basalt, granite, marble, limestone, perlite, andestie, perlite, limestone, agate, pumice and gypsum. Also cooked up in the country were iron, polymetals, aluminum, molibden, tungsten, diatomite, gold, silver, copper, tin, mercury, barium, sulfur, bentonite, sodium chloride, among other minerals. Semi-precious and precious stones found in Armenia include obsidian, amethyst, andesite, andelusite, emerald, garnet, beryl, turquoise, several grades of quartz, carnelian, aquamarine, lapis lazuli and diamonds.

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Geghard Monastery 13th century
Geghard Monastery Armeniapedia Entry
Vahan:

This temple was hewn from one huge rock. The sculptor dug a hole in the top and hollowed out the temple from the inside. The holy place for them was inside the stone. It was done by monks, not slave


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Beautiful_Geghard_Monastery.jpg/300px-Beautiful_Geghard_Monastery.jpg

Geghard Monastery

Vahan:

Those walls probably date back to pre-Christian times. This is a very important thing: the Christian temples in Armenia were constructed on spots where there were already temples. They transformed them. They said 'Christianity? Okay, Christianity...' and they transformed the old temples.

http://www.levontravel.com/NEW/COUNTRY/Armenia/Images/Echmiadzin.jpg

Echmiadzin Cathedral 301-480 AD
Vahan:

This is called the mother of all temples, a kind of Vatican for the Armenian Church, and under this cathedral, under the altar, there is a ring of fire for pagan rituals - they didn't destroy it, you see, they maintained it as a holy place. This is completely different to other cases where Christianity wiped out paganism and destroyed its buildings. No, in Armenia they built on top, or alongside of the old faith...


Armeniapedia:

Another secret is a fire pit beneath the altar. This is where pagans worshipped fire before Christianity. It is in the small museum in the main cathedral, with the entrance to the right of the altar. There are some religious artifacts in display cases, but you usually need to ask to be shown the fire worshipping pit, at which time a small donation is hinted at. Above the door which descends into the fire pit area is the lance ("Geghard") which is said to have pierced Christ's side.


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Detail of Echmiadzin
Vahan:

...the symbols... the connections... Aztecs, the Mayans, Buddhists, Hindus, all those religions that you could observe, even though they are completely different from Christianity, in this case you can find everything here...In this layer you can find every kind of symbol, for example the feathered serpent that is found with the Mayans, it's here in what's meant to be a Christian building... And this is a very important thing - all the symbols are logical. If you start with a line it will lead you all the way round the temple because it is logical...

Aztec Feathered Serpents

http://en.travelbymexico.com/blog/imgBase/2011/06/dfed3160JAJ-Quetzalc%C3%B3atl-.jpg

Feathered serpents, Teotihuacan
.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3572/3547910453_2e74ae815a.jpg

Detail of Echmiadzin
Vahan:

... this is the Armenian equivalent of the pentagram, made from two squares...


Echmiadzin Pillar

... the base. How mystically the sculptors must have viewed this stone, to make a pillar such an unbelievably strong base, when you approach this pillar you feel such an incredible strength...


The Monk's Stone

This is another very, very important thing. A pious monk comes and thinks 'I am going to put my sculpture - my cross, my prayer - here, exactly here, in this place.' But look at the stone he had to work on to put it there! He could have put it a bit to the right - no problem. But no, you can't do things the easy way. He decided on this spot and look how much work it must have cost him, chipping away at that archstone... It's like the way the Mayans built their pyramids - they made things difficult for themselves. In devotion there are no shortcut


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Szyu-oNVC0I/TA-nHynAkSI/AAAAAAAAABI/qQqnR0g4UWo/s1600/survivor4.JPG

Symbol of Eternity

... this is the symbol of eternity in Armenia..


http://www.armeniapedia.org/images/b/b8/Haghartsin_monastery-dcp4210.jpg

Haghartsin Monastery

This cross - if we look at all the plaitings - all the symbols of the world are in there. You can find the pentagram, the symbols of eternity, the swastika that Hitler stole, and all the kinds of plaitings that the Aztecs used - it's all there. It's a mystical devotion to stone, they worked their fingers to the bone to give stone a mystical significance

Carving Detail

... It looks as if the sculptor has sewn everything with a needle...


Noraduz, Khachkars - Armenian Tombstones

This is a cemetery, dating back ton the Middle Ages. Each stone is unique, with their own descriptions and prayers, and we can see what they were getting at: immortalizing memory, through the greatest mysticism... And what did Stalin do? Smashed them in half and used them to lay train tracks. Can you imagine how many there must have been?


Armenian History.info

During the Soviet rule, Nakhichevan, the Armenian province with the Armenian name and the unique Armenian historical and cultural heritage underwent an unprecedented period of "white genocide" and "ethnic cleansing". Predominant there in the 19th century, the Armenians composed 50% of the population in the 20s. From 1936, when the Turks of Azerbaijan became "Azerbaijanis" instead of "Caucasian Tartars", the Soviet historians followed the instructions of the Communist Party leaders and began creating the so-called "history of Azerbaijan". In order to erase any trace of the region's Armenian past, many unique Armenian monuments were destroyed, including khachkars and churches of early Christian period. The land was then extensively peopled with the Turks while the Armenians left on a large scale. According to the census of 1959, the number of Armenians in the region decreased to 1, 5% From 1922 to 1936, Armenia formed part of the Transcaucasian Soviet Federal Socialist Republic, consisting of Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan. The new Constitution of the USSR adopted in 1936 dissolved the Transcaucasian Republic. Armenia became one of 15 Soviet Socialist Republics. Like the other Republics, Armenia was governed by the Central Committee of the Republican Communist Party. The 1st Secretaries of the Party were appointed from Moscow. In the 30s, just like the other peoples of the Soviet Union, Armenians suffered from a large-scale campaign of political terror launched by Joseph Stalin. The purges touched virtually every Armenian family. Thousands of writers, artists, scientists and political leaders were executed or exiled.


View of Mt. Ararat from Vahan's friend's studio in Yerevan
Vahan:

See! Even the blocks are a different colour!

[Note: this has been put together from conversations with Vahan Bego, some of which were recorded. All of the photos of Armenian architecture are from Vahan's private archive].
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http://enationalist.com/forum/image.php?u=2690&type=sigpic&dateline=1257647484
AR RA
eternity 8 Հավէրժություն

[Artatama]

Pagan Resurrection Myths and the Resurrection of Christ

http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/83/c9b046ee60f122ea731c64da4ddb4f52/l.jpg

The mighty warrior Hayk/Orion-Aryan is the Sun/Son of righteousness rising with healing in his wings in the East, between the twin peaks of Ararat

We are instructed the resurrected Christ is "nothing but" another dying and rising god in a long line of mythic gods. This "nothing but" reductionism is noted very briefly here to enable readers to evaluate anti-resurrection writings more critically. More importantly in this electronic essay, the origin of pagan resurrection myths is clarified with some interesting results.

The characterization of Christ's resurrection as a myth must be evaluated only after a thorough consideration of the genesis of myths of so-called dying and reviving gods. The fruitfulness of such a study, of course, is dismissed a priori by those who reject the resurrection because of their ideological presuppositions.

The modern secular imagination in this instance is prejudiced to such a degree that the analysis of the origin of fabled deaths and risings is considered a waste of time. The origins of the myths has already been "discovered" by rationalist-secularist scholars. Nothing more needs to be added. The resurrection of Christ is a myth, they say. Case closed.

It is my thesis that the resurrection of Christ is not explainable by mythic fables of dying and reviving gods. On the contrary, mythic resurrection stories make sense only in the light of the resurrection of Christ. To develop this proposal, it is necessary to begin with the notion of the resurrection archetype.

The Resurrection Archetype

Carl Jung wrote of a resurrection archetype. I do not use the concept precisely in a Jungian sense. For me, the resurrection archetype is a meaning structure in the human psyche based on universal human experience. It is not something innate as Jung averred. Nor is the resurrection archetype limited to psychological applications.

The archetype is associated principally with the Christian imagination in that it supports and energizes the Christian imagination. (This is something Jung would never have admitted). This meaning structure, furthermore, is the primary model for the death-revival myths of antiquity. The resurrection archetype began developing in the memory of the human race, I suggest, from ancient times. Resurrection myths also began emerging early on out of this archetypal matrix.

Experience of the resurrection theme in the natural world led to the formation of a resurrection archetype in the collective unconscious of the human race. This archetype is the source of myths of dying and reviving pagan gods to eternal life. All in all, in God's providence the resurrection archetype prepared human beings for God's decisive action within human history: the bodily resurrection of Christ from death to eternal life. This thesis requires further elaboration.

The Resurrection Theme in the Created World

Out of what frequently repeated human experiences did the resurrection archetype originate? There are at least seven major and often-occurring phenomena that shaped our collective unconscious. "Death and resurrection" themes were associated by the ancients with: 1) vegetation; 2) the sun and climate on an annual basis; 3) the sun on a daily basis; 4) constellations (Orion) in the night skies; 5) awakened states from sleep; 6) tribal fortunes; and 7) human moods.

Many other resurrection motifs manifest themselves in the created world. It is relatively easy to identify these motifs when someone begins looking for them. The seven listed here seem to be the most significant.
Seven Resurrection Themes

Vegetation

Concern for the success of the harvest in ancient times was suffused with a powerful sense of wonder. Not much was known about why things died and grew again. All that was known was that the planting - the burial - of seeds in the Spring conduced later to a harvest, if other conditions such as weather were congenial. For the pagans (our ancestors who were also God's children), if the gods took care to "resurrect" mere buried seeds, might the gods not also be solicitous for dead members of the tribe who were buried? One of the effects of this focus on the mysteries of the decay and growth of vegetation was the construction of the resurrection archetype.
Climate

It did not take long for our ancient ancestors to associate agricultural cycles with climatic cycles. When the sun seemed to die at the end of the year, vegetation also died. The death and resurrection of the crops had something to do with the annual death and resurrection of the sun god. Did the death and rising again of the sun god on a yearly basis have anything to do with the genesis of the resurrection archetype? I think this repeated universal human experience helped fashion the meaning structure we call the resurrection archetype.

The Daily Death and Rising of the Sun

The sun god died and lived again, on an annual basis. The sun god also died every evening and arose again every morning, according to the perceptions of ancient peoples. The demise of the solar disk and its reappearance each day must have had a tremendous impact in the unconscious realms of the human psyche. This daily reminder of the death and resurrection of the powerful sun etched the resurrection archetype in the collective unconscious of the human race.

http://www.crystalinks.com/pyrorionbeltstars.jpg

Hayk/Orion-Osiris (Christ) is the Sun of God rising (resurrection) from death(darkness) to eternal life(light)

The 3 stars in Hayk/Orion-Osiris is the Trinity (Godhead), after 3 days when it sets in the West, it rises again in the East (the Bright Morning/Dawn Star) with the Sun-light

Stellar Phenomena

One of the great pastimes of the ancient world was the study of the night skies. Navigators, shepherds and sages marveled at the starry vault. They took particular interest in the constellations. A constellation is a configuration of relatively bright stars based on imaginary figures. These constellations, at particular seasons and from particular perspectives on the earth, died each night but were born again on the following night. The wonders of the night skies disclosed - as so many other experiences revealed - the resurrection motif in the cosmos. The resurrection archetype that came into being was based on our ancient ancestors' reflective experience of repeated resurrection patterns in nature.

Sleep and Wakefulness

Sleep has been compared to death in many literary works. We lose our consciousness in sleep and regain it when we wake. During thousands of years this pattern of losing oneself in sleep and gaining a new, refreshed self in the morning, has been an essential component of shared human experience. Sleep and the awakening from sleep reinforced the emergence of the resurrection archetype. This experience of the death and resurrection motif each night and morning was a powerful occasion for the development of the resurrection archetype.

Tribal Fortunes

For untold years every tribe and/or local community experienced the wane and wax of good fortune. Durations of drought or defeat in battle could mean the death of an entire community. A fruitful harvest or victory in tribal combat could mean literally the continuation of the life of the community. The community was especially important in the ancient world. Without a community a person could not live physically or emotionally. Rugged individualism was unthinkable. The making of the resurrection archetype was something that affected everyone.

Mood Changes

The world each of us sees each day depends to a certain extent on our moods. Our moods, Martin Heidegger claimed, affect our very being-in-the-world. If I have a dark mood, the world appears to be a melancholy place. When my mood changes from sad to glad, the world becomes a joyful place. The taste of renewal that comes from a sad to glad mood change may well be compared to a sense of deliverance from the belly of the beast. This taste of "death" and "resurrection" in respect to moods may be likened to a foretaste of one's own resurrection. Even mood changes, then, contributed to the formation of the resurrection archetype.

Pagan Myths as Proleptic

The resurrection archetype has been operative for unnumbered ages in the psyche of the race. This archetype exerted a great influence over tribal myth makers and story tellers. This fact is central to any informed understanding of the origin of myths of death and revival. Sometimes such myths were constructed around the deeds of a local hero who brought great boons to the community after undergoing severe tests. That is, years after the death of a local hero, myth makers embellished his legend with stories of some kind of revival from the dead.

This, according to the late Joseph Campbell, is the great monomyth, the myth that sums up the lesson of all myths. Later, the myths were redacted and retold regionally. Some of the myths of so-called dying and rising gods became accepted by entire peoples in larger geographical areas.

Pagan revival myths, in their own ways, prepared the way for the message of Christ's resurrection from the dead. The word prolepsis is attributed to anything that represents a future event as if it had already taken place. Myths of dying and reviving pagan gods (which are essentially different from the announcement of Christ's resurrection in crucial ways), were products of the common human experience of the death and resurrection themes manifested in the natural world.

The death and rebirth myths about the gods, it was noted, are essentially different from the heralding of Christ's resurrection. First, the resurrection of Christ occurred at a particular time and place in history; stories of gods are ahistorical, they happened "once upon a time." Secondly, there is a "fairy tale" character identifiable in all revival myths, i.e., these myths are saturated with elements of the fantastic. The resurrection of Christ may be construed legitimately as wondrous, but is certainly not certifiably ridiculous as are the myths. Those who state Christ is "nothing but" a mythic hero certainly have not studied hero myths critically.

Finally, the effects of the heralding of Christ's resurrection are well known after two millennia. The Good News has had staying power and produced powerfully good consequences for humankind. The myths of Attis, Adonis, Osiris (Orion-Christ), Dionysus, and others are hardly known and the fruits of these myths are nonexistent. One would be hard put to identify a hospital dedicated to the memory of Attis.

Yet something good can be said about the myths that grew out of the thematic resurrectional structure of the natural world via the resurrection archetype. Pagan myths, always enormously ambiguous and often morally disreputable, nonetheless pointed the way obscurely - by way of hint and insinuation - to the key event of history, the resurrection of Christ.

The Credibility of the Kerygma

When people heard the Good News heralded for the first time, many were moved by the ideas and images of the resurrection archetype - under the prompting of the Holy Spirit - to affirm the message they heard. They might well have said to themselves, "Yes, the announcement of the resurrection of Christ is in accord with what I have sensed deep down in my heart all of my life. Also, the resurrection of the Son of God seems very real because of the intimations contained in ancient myths that preceded Christ's resurrection. These myths were faint and garbled whispers of what was to occur at a central point in history. The resurrection of Christ is worthy of belief because of the truthfulness of those who bear the message and because the message itself has about it the ring of truth. The Good News finds resonance in my soul. The resurrection of Christ validates my lifelong experience of the world and the seeming 'messages' the world has often spoken to me."

A young man once stated at a conference that he accepted God and morality, but could not accept the resurrection of Christ since it was redolent of ancient structures of imagination and thinking. The resurrection of Christ may be unacceptable to some because it evokes ancient meaning structures at a time when only the newest ideas are assumed to be correct. The resurrection of Christ, however, would be unacceptable to many of us, if it was not redolent of ancient meaning structures.

The same God who raised Christ from the dead is the God who created the ancient structures of imagining and thinking. He is the same God who filled the cosmos with images of death and resurrection and enabled us to interpret these images in terms of Christ's resurrection.

Why Resurrection Motifs in Nature?

There remains one more interesting question raised by this brief summary. Why was the world created containing, as it were, the death-resurrection motifs that appear everywhere in nature? Here is an answer worth pondering: The very act by which God created the world was an act referable to the death-resurrection theme. He created the world out of a nothingness similar to death and brought it into a dynamic being comparable to life.

The very act of resurrecting cosmos out of chaos is the fundamental pattern of death-resurrection that is repeated everywhere in the workings of the cosmos. The eternal Word in whom all things were created is the same eternal Word incarnate in Christ (Hayk/Orion Sun) who was raised from the dead, and the same eternal Word who will come again. Not only is this Word the Alpha and Omega, but also everything in between that makes reality intelligible.

[Artatama]

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_578.jpg
http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/orion.gif
Hayk/Orion-Aryan

August 11 (Age of Lion) marks the 4,500 year of Navasard (Hayk's calendar). Hayk/Orion-Aryan(sol'Ar' cross, Ar'ev khatchn) is the Sun of righteousness (Christ from Ancient Egyptian Krist or Karast) rising with healing in his wings. The 4 sides and 3 middle stars of Hayk/Orion represent the 4 seasons and 3 months in each season, making the total of the 12 months. The 12 signs of the zodiac go around the same pattern 3 months, 4 seasons. Hayk/Orion represents the Sun/Son (Ar or Arev) rising with healing in his wings. Precession is shown in the lunar cycle of the 4 weeks (7's) 3 in each. The moon goes through the 12 signs, 2 half days in each sign completing the month. The 4 weeks (7's) make the ancient cross (khatch) symbol which shows the precession cycle. 3 signs of the 12 are in each of the 4 (7's)weeks. Going through the moon phases like how the swaying of precession would be from new moon, half moon, quarter moon, half again, and new again. Each 1000 years is a day so 2 half days is 2000 half years which it goes through of the 12 signs 2 half days in a month. So also the 2 meaning male and female 1000 in each. The cycle of life is like the seasons in a year. We go through darkness in winter and rise to life again at spring. The same with the Sun rising at Spring representing rebirth of life and path to eternal life.

The constellation of Hayk (Orion) in the Egyptian pantheon represented Osiris, and he was the Destiny of Pharaonic Ka after [Ba or Mer -- Ban in Armenian is anonymous with divine Ēut'iwn -- the royal insignia of Mitanni represented the official religion of the state -- the Orion-Aryan sun cult -- as a winged sun disk -- surrounded on both the Right and Left by a pair of eagles and lions -- symbolic of the solar power/energy. The Sun/Son Orion (Christ-Krist Karast from Egyptian) rising from the East (Orient)... Akhenaten instated the Mitanni Aryan [Orion] solar cult as the official monotheistic [ONE God] religion of Egypt. The Armenian Orion Cult based in and around the sacred Mitanni city of Urhai [Ourhai or Ori-On] was the sacred religion guarded by the high priest Egyptian kings [going back to ages of recorded history]. This symbolism was also adopted by the Egyptian pharaohs [hence the winged sun disk and the Ba bird [connected with Ban] as the symbol of the immortal Soul that flew to the astral heaven -- represented by the hawk/eagle headed Hor Arev the eventful journey to the Invisible Sun (Ararich/Creator/Source of Life).

http://www.eutyun.org/RES/S/1/1.gif

Small statue of Egyptian pharaoh found
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2200695/posts

16-2-2009

Small statue of Egyptian pharaoh found

Michael Cohen m.cohen@allnewsweb.com

Archaeologists have discovered a small ancient statue of the Egyptian pharaoh Tutankhamen in Northern Iraq. The discovery was made by a team led by noted Iraqi archaeologist Mr Hassan Ahmad in an area known as Dohuq Valley in a place referred to by locals as 'Pharaoh’s Palace'.

Experts have estimated the age of the statue at around 3500 years old, dating from around 1400 BC. The statue confirms historical data that the ancient Egyptians, during the ‘New Kingdom’ period, enjoyed warm relations with the Hittite Mitanni Kingdom and often travelled into their territory many hundreds of miles from the Nile. [U]The Mitanni Kingdom was a powerful force around 15-1300 BC and are regarded by many historians as the ancestors of the modern day Armenians.

The find also confirms that the name of the area where the statue was unearthed ‘Pharaoh’s Palace’ has a historical basis. Some have suggested that the pharaohs might have come here to escape the harsh heat of the Egyptian summer.

http://www.aknews.com/images/cms-image-000000156.jpg

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_468.jpg
http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_4799.jpg
MIT[R]ANNI-NAHARIN CHILDREN OF [AREG]AKN-AT[E]N...STELLA ERECTED
I N T H E H O L Y C I T Y O F A M A R N A - A R M A N A.
The Armenians were the great innovators of a military system made up of an elite chariot corps drawn only from the aristocracy of the nation. Another innovation was their tactic of using chariots to surround the enemy and then using the chariot as a protected firing platform delivered a constant fire of arrows and javelins. Once they had broken up the enemy formation they used the chariot as an impact weapon trampling the opposing soldiers. The fearsome Armenian maryannu cavalry became renowned and highly sought as mercenary troops throughout all of the Near East.
O R I O N

T H E K I N G D O M O F M I T A N N I

INDO-EUROPEAN ARMAN COSMIC SIGILS FOUND THROUGHOUT THE SACRED HIGHLAND.
MIDDLE BRONZE AGE, CA. 2,500-2,000 BC.
http://www.satrapa1.com/articulos/antiguedad/oriente/IIIperiodo/mitanni.jpg
Hai Aryan Armenian Kingdom of Mitanni (Aram-Naharina)

References:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2200695/posts "The Mitanni Kingdom was a powerful force around 1500 BC to 1300 BC and are regarded by many historians as the ancestors of the modern day Armenians."

Prof. Petrie (19th century Egyptologist) "Mitannian (Armenian) origins"

"Armeno-Aryan" subgroup of Indo-European (Aryan) family tree" "Armeno-Aryan(=Armenian-Indo-Iranian) subgroup later to seperate to Armenian branch and Indo-Iranian branch. See family tree for more details"

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/heinsohn.html "Armenians=Hai of Armeno-Aryan Mitanni Period (-1500 BC to -1350 BC)"

http://ezinearticles.com/?Tracing-th...ians&id=311587 "These were prehistoric Aryan tribes of an Armenian origin – followers of the God Ara."

http://www.armenianhighland.com Armenian Highland; Armenian History

http://www.tacentral.com/erebuni/2ndwave.asp

http://arevordi.blogspot.com "Queen Nefertiti of Egypt was a native of the Armenian Kingdom of "Hurri"-Mitanni."

Indo-European family tree, showing Indo-European languages and sub branches

THE PHARAONIC CROWN IS TOPPED BY U R A E U S OR SACRED COBRA ON
THE FOREHEAD -- DENOTING HIS INITIATION INTO THE SACRED RITES WHERE
KNOWLEDGE WAS GAINED OF THE HIDDEN WISDOM. THE HINDUS CALL
WISE MEN AS NAGAS [MEANING SERPENT]. CHRIST ADJURED THE DISCIPLES TO BE
W I S E .A S .S E R P E N T S. . .

[Artatama]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iML-ts9Nr5U"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iML-ts9Nr5U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itrj1SRXyXE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itrj1SRXyXE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B8WGUXAUys"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B8WGUXAUys

[Artaxat]

Thanks Artamat for your contribution! I almost fell in tears when I saw the Geghard pic :(

GEGHARD is The most sacred place I have ever been to!

The monastry walls-columns are carved straight into the mountain and there's even a water spring in it (and yes, I believe it has healing power, fact is most mountain waters have healing properties)

http://i.imgur.com/N9yo4.jpg

Blend of Christian Animistic Symbols
http://www.armenian-history.com/images/churches/Geghard/Geghart%20monastery%20XIIIC_interior_small.jpg

http://foodperestroika.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/armenianmonasteries3-small.jpg

Carved in a mountain!
http://images.travelpod.com/users/mys/4.1227546780.geghard-monastery-interior.jpg

Exterior view

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Geghard_monastery.jpg

http://www.brodyaga.com/pages/photos/Armenia/Geghard%20Armenia%201233109685.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_c6qXdPj0QyA/S3Z6mr7iEoI/AAAAAAAACLw/0LGK7hLYNxk/s400/geghard-0cave28-vgn-l.jpg

http://ssaes.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/P1010177.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3PoWF79C860/Ti6rZrxos9I/AAAAAAAAENc/YWXphWsUPao/s1600/IMG_0874.jpg

http://linkavia.com/content/images/hiking_routes/4/big/2.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5099/5525857226_03d58d7549.jpg

SunDial in Geghard
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3245/2908967903_51c0d781c5_z.jpg

Beautiful Vaults with upper opening
http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/55/5546/IU4LG00Z/posters/daffey-mark-tomb-at-back-of-geghard-monastery-complex.jpg

[Artaxat]

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/15/4889968-Mysteriously_muslimpagan_Geghard.jpg

http://www.thecompassculture.com/subs/jan09/5-3.jpg

Just look at those walls (mountains) reminds me a bit of petra
http://www.globespots.com/pictures/europe/armenia/geghard_6406.jpg

Ealry Christian animistic tradition
The fierce lion and the unyielding bull
http://www.findarmenia.com/images/photo_1/5_225_1299237518.jpg

Sweet bread
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DTp1FQxvcyA/TlTEf0spwVI/AAAAAAAABmk/ainMhk3hB90/s1600/geghard15.jpg


http://ianyanmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/2910350766_52695a98cf_b.jpg

Beautiful
Archs
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2v_uZIwa73o/ThbGsodTMMI/AAAAAAAADoI/uloTGiJmPdc/s1600/11_06_27_Garni%2526Geghard%2B005.jpg

Spooky
http://www.funtour.am/images/info/big/13.Geghard%2004_resize.JPG

http://ylt.azhdahak.com/img/Geghard_01.jpg

http://www.ranonus.com/webplaatjes%20olie/geghard2.jpg

I will not mention anything about acoustics, other than most who enter into the caves spontaneously vocalize mantras AAAAAAAAA...OOOOOOOO
:D
The resonance lasts around 40 seconds after the acoustic source has been stopped.

Sharakan ensemble recorded many of the Sacred Hymns in Geghard.

[Artaxat]

This I dedicate to my mother who I miss :(
pNj9HD4UOe4

and this I dedicate to Transhumanist :) as a token of friendship
9OOGWcefy-c

[Artatama]

http://www.eutyun.org/RES/E/BANs/img.4.jpg
Alexandre VARBEDIAN's New Work
The Letter E name of AY -REVELATION
(“GIRN zE ANUN AY -HAYTNUTYUN”)
http://www.persons.am/en/interview.php?id=145

The so much expected work (512 pages) “GIRN Ze(zE) ANUN AY - HAYTNUTYUN” by ALEXANDER
ARORDI VARBEDIAN was published, being entitled as EATSUM (the inner self-realization or the realization/ evelopment of self-essence) or INITIATION before. This is the third volume of the century embracing qurterline preproject of EAGANK - “Nation and the new Millennium” (v. 1, Yerevan, 2002). Though being ready since 2003, it has been published before MIJOREKAN (“Meridian”) (v. 3) and “DZIU KAYL” (“Horse’s pace”) (v.4) volumes those being not subject to printing today, thus such world fermentations and scientific sound researches of “Theory of Whole Creation” made his publication imperative.

Apparently the given work is the natural and continuous development of the ESSENCE doctrine and the same spirit-ideological whole system, though it is an absolutely new word as well as in the sphere of oriental sciences and belief and philosophy or sociology and is completely harmonic with the modern scientific and cosmologic freshest findings, which during the last decade came to ratify the main provisions of the philosophic theory of E-Eizm being published in 1995. As an appendix, that is introduced in the 4th contents of the volume being already briefly published in Russian newspaper “Svobodnaya Gruzia” (visit www.svobodnaya-gruzia.com electronic version, Society section, N 126-127, 17.05.2006). The other 3 contents – SOURCE-WAY-EATSUM outlins:
- the Armenian ancient mysterious and unintelligible E-essence concept’s genealogy, essence,development
and wide spreading through all the meridians, starting from the ancient mytho-faith, religio-philosophical, classic philosophy systems to various doctrines, up to modern scientific theories and new hypotheses and much too more. A circumstance, which verifies not only the author’s “TSNNDOTS – AYA”(GENESIS-AYA) theory of 12000 year genealogy of Armenian and whole humanity’s civilization in the Armenian highland, but also D.C. (Latin “du capo”) breaks all the possible and impossible attempts of objections towards that theory, which once seemed to be unusual. And not only this.
- The work automatically proofreads a series of human recognition mistakes, deforms, or faith misunderstandings,
particularly in Christian sources. Thus, finely it becomes obvious who the father of Jesus Christ is, about whom
he promised once “to speak openly”, which has become the ontological(allegoric) prologue of this volume:
JESUS DID NOT SPEAK ABOUT HIS FATHER “OPENLY” AND DID NOT HEAD UP TO GOD.
NOW PERHAPS FATHER GOD LEADS US UP TO HIS SON,
“AND WAY, AND TRUTH, AND LIFE“ AND BEYOND….
Thus, through the above mentioned whole points and with his trilogy thematic structure, the volume is simultaneously a real revelation, a special “Testament”, an initiation of essence, ontologic manual and since a future-scientific scene involved with its new “commandments”. By other means, the given script makes endeavor to perform things, which Jesus told through proverbs or didn’t reveal, trusting it in coming and expected “Soul of Truth”. By other words, it is another spiritual-ideological new “programming” day by day endowed by our most perfect computers, or if you want “X-ray eye-glasses” or “laser eye” (mythologically of Shiva) to newly comprehend our multilayer reality.

Surely, not all can understand the sense and meaning of the study in the super themes of Armenian development,
establishment, surviving and ESSENCE, the others realize not immediately, but most of those being “programmed” would
have idiologic-pshycological “convulsions”, the others – faith-political serious conflicts…. THUS,
THE MOUNTAIN CANNOT BE SEEN IN THE MICROSCOPE AND THE BIGGER THE MOUNTAIN IS, THE MORE SPACE IS NECESSARY FOR ENTIRELY COMPREHENSION,
SINCE TO HAVE A SIGHT TO FAR, IT IS NEEDED TO STAND AS TOO HIGH, TO G0 BLIND FOR CLAIRVOYANCE.
BUT, IF IT IS NECESSARY TO SEE THE FOREST BEHIND THE TREE,
IT IS UP TO SEE COSMIC TREE BEYOND THE FOREST. (Essences and SuperESSENCE…).
Therefore, as surely and imperceptibly, this theory will be absorbed in the capable brains and in Armenian reality will be mixed like salt in the saltwater, like the author’s previous separate ideas and theories on Armenian Aryan identity, 12000 year genealogy, ESSENCE etc. Thus, first,
FIG BECOMES RIPE LOOKING AT THE OTHER FIG… BY JEALOUSY
and then and as different from optic laws.
THE SPIRITUAL EYES OPEN… AFTER SEEING.
SINCE WE JUMP TO THE HIGHEST SUMMITS MORE EASILY THAN OUR OWN “FONTANEL (SOUL HOME)”.

[Artaxat]

I would really love to see an English version of Varbedyan's work!

[Artatama]

Armenia: Land of the Children of Light
http://www.armenisk.com/ImageFetch.ashx?page=galimg&type=large&pid=26
Ararat (Aratta)
The Land of the Mountains Where the Gods Live of the great Epic of Gilgamesh. The Land where the Garden of Eden -- the Tree of Life and the Tree of Wisdom is located...the Twin peaks of Mashu (Masis) - the SYMBOL of the holy Cosmic Mountain. When many of us hear this name we picture the birth and rebirth of humanity and human civilization in the sacred land in the highlands of ARMANIA. The Bible also recounts the ancient stories of Genesis, including the Paradise and also the Rebirth of Humanity in the sacred Mountains of the Land of Ararat, the holy land where the resurrection of the human race took place.

http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/32/5cde695c632151ff81f66209ac6a9ca8/l.jpg
SOL[B]AR (AREV) ORION-ARYAN TEMPLE

http://bazaarinegypt.com/catalog/images/EP07.jpg

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_2355.jpg
http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/12/04df69f15056b6e32e1da5cb63cea742/l.jpg

Armenian Dance (Hye bar)
The Armenian dance heritage has been one of the oldest, richest and most varied in the Near East. From the fifth to the third millennia B.C., in the higher regions of Armenia there are rock paintings of scenes of country dancing. These dances were probably accompanied by certain kinds of songs or musical instruments. In the fifth century Moses of Khoren (Movsés Khorenats'i) himself had heard of how "the old descendants of Aram (that is Armenians) make mention of these things (epic tales) in the ballads for the lyre and their songs and dances.

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_3293.jpg

Armenen Kurms High Priest Astronomers.
Guardians of the Eternal Flame of Wisdom

History of Armenia
The modern Armenian name for the country was Hayk, or Hayastan. Haya, combined with the suffix '-stan' (land). Hayk was one of the great Armenian leaders after whom the The Land of Hayk was named. He is said to have settled at the foot of Mount Ararat, travelled to assist in building the Tower of Babel, and, after his return, defeated the Babylonian king Bel (believed by some researchers to be Nimrod) in 2492 BC near the mountains of Lake Van, in the southwestern part of historic Armenia (present-day eastern Turkey). Nairi, meaning "land of rivers", used to be an ancient name for Armenia and Armenians, used by Assyrians and Egyptians.
http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_313.jpg
Armenian Cross-Stone (KhachKar)

Hayk (Haya in Armenic Sumerian) was a chieftain of the Armens, an Armenian tribe at the time of Aratta (The name also resembles Ararat, and the mountain is indeed located in the possible area of Aratta). Hayk is also used in place of Orion, in the Armenian translation of the Bible. The traditional etiology for the ethnonym is from Armenak or Aram, the great-grandson of Hayk's great-grandson, and another leader who is, according to Armenian tradition, the ancestor of all Armenians. Armani is mentioned among the enemies defeated by the Akkadian king Naram-Sin (2300 BC), locating them in the southern Armenian Highland. The Assyrians (direct descendants of Akkadians) to this day refer Armenians by their inscription Armani. Old Persian name 'Armin', means "dweller of the garden of Eden". Thutmose III of Egypt (1500 BC in his 23rd year records) mentions the people of 'Ermenen' as paying tribute when he held his court at Nineveh, and says that in their land "heaven rests upon its four pillars." (To this day Turks refer to Armenians by this form 'Ermeni') Artatama's (Armenian name with 'Arta' prefix) title was "King of the Hurri", which reveals the Hurrian-Aryan Armenian links.

http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/58/b07586e29dc6771d0fe675955b29edfb/l.jpg

Armenia has been populated since prehistoric times, and has been proposed as the site of the Biblical Garden of Eden. Armenia lies in the highlands surrounding the Biblical mountains of Ararat, upon which Noah's Ark came to rest after the flood. (Gen. 8:4). Armenic Sumerian records written ca. 2,700 BC, tells us the story of the Great Flood and the rebirth of Life [the Tree of Life or the Garden [Partez - Paradise - the main motif in the Armenian-Hurrian Mitanni and Araratian reliefs] of Eden located in Armenia - the Land of Four Rivers. Archeologists continue to uncover evidence that Armenia and the Armenian Highlands was the earliest site of human civilization. From 10,000 BC to 1000 BC, tools and trinkets of copper, bronze and iron were commonly produced in Armenia and traded in neighbouring lands where those metals were less abundant. Hai Aryan (Armenian-Indo-Iranian) states flourished in the area of Greater Armenia, including Aratta (Hayk's time), mentioned in Armenic Sumerian records (3rd millennium BC), the Hittite Empire (at the height of its power), Mitanni (Aram Nahabed's time) and Hayasa-Azzi (15th - 12th cc BC), and in the Iron Age the Nairi (12th - 9th cc BC) and the Kingdom of Ararat (Ara the Beautiful's time) (9th - 6th cc BC). Each of the aformentioned Hai Aryan Armenian tribes participated in the ethnogenesis of the Armenian people. Yerevan, the modern capital of Armenia, was founded in 782 BC by king Argishti I.

The word Armani - an early form of Armen-Armin [Armen or Arman denotes the national affiliation, as with many cultures standing for the particular nation thus, the God AR being the primary deity in the Indo-European (Aryan)pantheon - thus AR MAN denotes -- Men of Ar or Children of Ar, again initially AR standing for ARAREL-ARARICH [hence Ar-Ar-At the Place of ARAR] -- Create-Creator, also Sun, Light, Life and Love.

http://a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/64/adc0cf6e76a386f5a32d376205cf1d02/l.jpg

Armenian Timeline
Armenia: Cradle of Civilization (land of the 4 rivers)
* Areg dajar(Sun temple)-Portakar(Ur-'Hai'/Urfa) in the Armenian Highlands of Ararat (Aratta) - (10,500 BC - ?BC)
* Flood and rebirth of nations on mountains of Ararat (Aratta) - (?BC - ?BC)
* Aratta (Armenic Sumerians) - (3rd millennium BC - 2nd millennium BC)
* Haykazuni dynasty - (25th century BC - 17th century BC)
* Armenic-Mitanni and Hayasa-Azzi - (17th century BC - 12th century BC)
* Nairi - (12th century BC - 9th century BC)
* Ararad - (9th century BC - 6th century BC)
* Oriontid - (6th century BC - 2nd century BC)
* Artaxiad - (2nd century BC - 1st century AD)
* Arshakuni - (1st century AD - 4th century AD)
* Bagratuni - (7th century AD - 10th century AD)
* Cilician - (10th century AD - 14th century AD)

http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/39/f64d7abc9fcd5a04c7860af871f292ac/l.jpg

Armenian language roots
The Armenian language is unique compared to all other languages. Armenian cuneiforms (Armenian-Mitanni Kingdom, Ararad Kingdom, and Armenic Sumerian times) indicate the unique 8 or 9 sounds that the Armenian language has in their letters. The IE(Aryan) roots are from the Armenian Highland, and the 8 or 9 unique sounds in Armenian is nothing similar to other IE peoples language. The Armenian language therefore is a independent language of IE and root of IE.
Scholars Thomas Gamkrelidze and Vyacheslav V. Ivanov place the Proto-Indo-European(Aryan) homeland in the Armenian Highlands, postulating the Armenian language as an in situ development of a 3rd millennium BC Proto-Indo-European language.

http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/32/4ec634c90feeb35f3c6a44f40e169365/l.jpg
http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/51/f972fb919681ad936189dc34a6f7cdaa/l.jpg

Armenian is a separate branch of the Indo-European language family, though it has similarities to languages as far flung as Indian Sanskrit, Persian, Old Greek (Ponti) and Aramaic. The largest of the language families, the Indo-European "tree" is now believed to have sprung from the Armenian Highlands. Developing into sub-branches by around 7000 BC, Indo-European (also known as "Hindo-Aryan") peoples.

This Hurrian cuneiform inscription translates to "I dug this watercourse" in Armenian.
Rafael Ishkhanyan, "Illustrated History of Armenia," Yerevan, 1989

Martiros Kavoukjian, "Armenia, Subartu and Sumer", Montreal, 1989
Martiros Kavoukjian, "The Genesis of Armenian People", Montreal, 1982

Armenian Carpet/Rug (Vishapagorg)
http://www.armsite.com/rugs/images/rug31.jpg

http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/123/57d7cb8c440b458a8496f3029da4b92f/l.jpg
http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/124/f14c03aecbd848e1a4e58ed26f966fc0/l.jpg

History Links:
Armenian Highland (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fmain.html)
Azgaser's site (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.angelfire.com% 2Fhi%2FAzgaser%2FAR.html)
Tour Armenia Central (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tacentral.com% 2Fhistory.asp)
Arevordi's site (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Farevordi.blogspot. com%2F)
Armenian language roots (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.saintsarkis.or g%2FLanguage.htm)

[Artatama]

ArmenianHighland
http://www.armenianhighland.com (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com)

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/tarer/ayb.gif


ARMENIA: THE CRADLE OF CIVILIZATION
THE BEGINNING OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_029.jpg

Written by Gevork Nazaryan (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=mailto%3Agevork.nazaryan%40arme nianhighland.com)

The recent sensational discoveries by a team from the German Archaeological Institute [the first findings were made in 1994 and are still ongoing], led by field director Dr. Klaus Schmidt and Harald Hauptmann -- at Göbekli Tepe [lit. navel Mountain, highly probable that this is the primordial name of the place, and navel is associated with the Navel of the Earth [Port in Armenian, connected with port[al] in Greek Omphalos, the Delphi [oracle] in antiquity was called the Navel of the Earth. Generally, the omphalos, or navel-boss, was the emblem of the AYA -- The Mother Goddess. Our ancient ancestors considered a woman’s navel the seat of her sexual passion, throughout Siwnik there are still remnants of phallic/mountain shaped portak‛arer literary navel stones that according to ancient traditions would be visited by barren women who would genuflect on the sacred stones in the hope of divine impregnation -- so we return to the name of Navel [feminine] Mountain [masculine]..., 15 km northeast of the city of Sanliurfa, near historic Urfa or Urha [Edessa], the point o origin of the Armenian Solar cult of Orion that later spread to other parts of the globe, has been a truly revolutionary archaeological discovery. The cult site consists of circular stone formations that look similar to those in Stonehenge, only that Stonehenge is about 6,000 years younger.

...THE MIND IS NOT A VESSEL TO BE FILLED...BUT A FIRE TO BE LIGHTED...
PLUTARCH

I N T H E A G E O F T H E L I O N...

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_608.jpg
A Y A - - T H E M O T H E R G O D D E S S
S E A T E D B E T W E E N T W O L E O P A R D S A N D G I V I N G B I R T H
S Y M B O L I C O F F E R T I L I T Y A N D L I F E. ÇATAL HÜYÜK

'...At Ice Age's end, sociality would draw men and women into conformity chambers of unprecedented size. One byproduct would be conformity's antithesis - diversity - surging ideas at ferocious speed into the arteries of the inter-human brain. Old networks would give way to new, hastening the pace at which the fuel of concepts from afar would kindle flares of fire in the furnace of mass mind...'

from -- 'The End of the Ice Age and the Rise of Urban Fire'


http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_2144.jpg

ARMENIA: THE CRADLE OF CIVILIZATION -- THE BIBLICAL GARDEN OF EDEN. SHOWING
THE FOUR RIVERS OF PARADISE -- AND THE FOUR-FOLD DIVISION OF THE BIBLICAL LAND
OF EDEN FROM THE SOURCE -- V A N. THE SITE OF DILMUN --
THE ANCIENT ORION/ARYAN AR-MAN CENTER.
FROM ANDREW COLLINS' G O D S O F E D E N: EGYPT'S LOST LEGACY AND
T H E G E N E S I S O F C I V I L I Z A T I O N

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_2145.jpg

CAYONÜ, NEVALI ÇORI, URFA [UR-HAI], HARRAN. SOME OF THE IMPORTANT ARMAN-ARAM
CENTERS OF THE CRADLE OF CIVILIZATION SITUATED IN AND AROUND LAKE VAN.
THE ANCIENT AVESTAN INSCRIPTIONS NOTE ARMINS AS THE GOD-MEN DWELLERS
OF THE LAND OF THE GODS IN EDEN-PARTEZ/PARADISE.

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_2300.jpg
S H A M A N - S E M E N - S E A M A N

ARMENIC SETTLED COMMUNITIES LED BY SHAMANIC HIGH PRIESTS
WERE HIGHLY SPIRITUAL AS THE EXCAVATIONS SHOWED -- LED BY THE
SCIENTIST HEALERS IMBUED IN ARCHAIC TOTEMIC TRADITIONS
BEGAN THE NEOLITHIC REVOLUTION -- ESTABLISHING
THE FIRST CIVILIZATION CIRCA 10,500 BC.


http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_2983.jpg
THE EXTRAORDINARY STANDING M O N O L I T H
[CARBON DATED TOCA. 8,000 BC!] AND SURROUNDING
CULT BUILDING UNEARTHED AT NEVALI ÇORI, WESTERN ARMENIA
ONLY 3 KM FROM THE SOUTHERN BANK OF THE SACRED EUPHRATES RIVER
37°35'N, 38°39' E
[TERRESTRIAL MIRROR OF CELESTIAL ERIDANUS...THE STARRY STREAM...]
NOTE THE FIVE-FINGERED HANDS ON THE FRONT FACE OF THE PILLAR [DEPICTED
ALONG WITH RIGHT AND LEFT SPINNING SPIRALS/SERPENTINE LABYRINTHS
IN NUMEROUS PRIMORDIAL ARMANIC ROCKY PICTOGRAPHS] JUST LIKE IN
CATAL HUYUK/HOYUK AND ON THE KALASASAYA PALACE COURT AT
TIAHUANACO IN BOLIVIA.

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_2984.jpg
SIDE-PLAN OF THE MONOLITH AT NEVALI ÇORI, THE ASTONISHING FIND
OUTLINED BY THE HEAD OF THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL
EXPEDITION -- HARALD HAUPTMANN.

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_4554.jpg
THE NEOLITHIC REVOLUTION BEGAN BY ARMENIC COMMUNITIES IN FIRST SETTLED
SOCIETIES LIKE ÇAYÖNÜ, NEVALI ÇORI, GÖBEKLI TEPE, GÜRCÜ TEPE AND ÇATAL
HÜYÜK. IT IS HERE THAT THE NOSTRATIC PROTO-INDO-EUROPEAN MOTHER LANGUAGE
WAS BORN IN ACCORD WITH THE BEGINNING OF CIVILIZATION [FROM CIVIL/CIVIC/CITY].

The first human settlements took place around the cities of Urfa [ancient Armenian Ur-hay] and modern day Diyarbakir [near the ruins of Tigranakert] in the historic Alznik province of Armenia. Excavations at one of these sites, Nevali Çori [the site was first discovered in 1980 by archaeologist Hans Georg Gebel], revealed clues that the Neolithic Age had started between 12,000 and 10,000 B.C. in this area, at least 500 years earlier than at Çatal Hüyük and Hacilar. The temple architecture found here gives important clues about the

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_3114.jpg

[Artatama]

ArmenianHighland
http://www.armenianhighland.com (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com)

INDO-EUROPEAN HOMELAND
THOMAS V. GAMKRELIDZE AND V. V. IVANOV

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_120.jpg

THE AUTHORS (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fhomeland%2Fchronicle120.html)
THE INDO-EUROPEAN SUPERFAMILY OF LANGUAGES (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fhomeland%2Fchronicle121.html)
GRIMM'S LAW OF LAUTVERSCHIEBUNG (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fhomeland%2Fchronicle122.html)
THE PLACE OF ARMENIA AND THE ARMENIAN LANGUAGE (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fhomeland%2Fchronicle123.html)
THE WORDS DESCRIBING AGRICULTURAL TECHNOLOGY (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fhomeland%2Fchronicle124.html)
THE LANDSCAPE DESCRIBED BY THE INDO-EUROPEAN PROTOLANGUAGE (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fhomeland%2Fchronicle125.html)
THE TERMINOLOGY FOR WHEELED TRANSPORT AND
SMELTING OF METALS (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fhomeland%2Fchronicle126.html)
THE MIGRATORY PATHS OF THE INDO-EUROPEANS (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fhomeland%2Fchronicle127.html)
THE ANTHROPOMETRY MEASURES (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fhomeland%2Fchronicle128.html)
FURTHER READING (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fhomeland%2Fchronicle129.html)

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/glxazarder/glxazard_120.gif


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THE INDO-EUROPEAN SUPER-FAMILY OF LANGUAGES

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by Thomas V. Gamkrelidze and V. V. Ivanov (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fhomeland%2Fchronicle120.html)
Scientific American, March 1990, P.110
Linguistics, the scientific study of language, can reach more deeply into the human past than the most ancient written records. It compares related languages to reconstruct their immediate progenitors and eventually their ultimate ancestor, or protolanguage. The protolanguage in turn illuminates the lives of its speakers and locates them in time and place.

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A CEREMONIAL STATUETTE FROM ARTIK‛.
SECOND MILLENNIUM BC.

The science developed from the study of the Indo-European superfamily of languages, by far the largest in number of languages and number of speakers. Nearly half of the world's population speaks an Indo-European language as a first language; six of the 10 languages in which Scientific American appears—English, French, German, Italian, Russian and Spanish—belong to this superfamily.

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DIFFUSION FROM THE ORIGINAL HOMELAND

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THE INVENTION OF THE WHEEL BY THE AR-MEN
AND THE DOMESTICATION OF THE HORSE
MADE POSSIBLE THE RAPID SPREAD OF MOUNTED INDO-EUROPEANS
FROM ARMENIA TO OTHER PARTS OF THE ANCIENT WORLD.
OLDEST SURVIVING WAGONS IN THE WORLD FROM LCHASHEN 1800 BC!
THE NEARBY GEGHAMA MOUNTAIN CAVES CONTAIN THE OLDEST PICTOGRAPHS
DEPICTING PULLING WAGONS. ATTESTING TO THE FACT THAT THE AREA MUST
HAVE BEEN A CENTER OF ORIGIN FOR PRODUCING FOR THE TIME
REVOLUTIONARY WAGONS. ORGANIC WOOD HAS BEEN MIRACULOUSLY PRESERVED
DUE TO THE TAR OF ACCUMULATED DEBRIS THAT HAD
COMPLETELY COVERED THE CARTS.

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CREMATION RITUAL. PURIFICATION BY FIRE.

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DECORATIVE BROOCH MADE OUT OF PURE GOLD. FIRST MILLENNIUM BC.
SACRED COSMIC ARMIN SYMBOLS INCLUDING 3 RIGHT AND LEFT SPINNING UNITED
∞ [INFINITY] PAROYR SPIRALS [LIKE EYES/AYAS...]WITHIN A DOWNWARD POINT
TRAPEZOID [MOTHER EARTH/COSMIC WATERS SPIRIT DESCENDING INTO MATTER]
DIVIDED INTO THREE LAYERS [TRIPLE DECKER -- HEAVEN-EARTH-UNDERWORLD].
DIV. SEC AND PERIPHERY MARKED IN UNBROKEN CONTINUUM OF ∞ [LINKED RINGS].
THE SERPENT [KENSAUZH/LIFE FORCE] PASSES THROUGH THE MIDDLE/ALL..
NOTE DETAIL BELLOW SHOWING SIX RINGS LEADING TO THE SEVENTH...FIXED
POINT/CIRCLE...MAKING THE SACRED PATTERN OF 77 IN ONE ∞...ETERNITY...
ABOVE THE HORIZ. MERIDIAN NINE DIAMONDS EACH MADE OUT OF
S E V E N C L U S T E R E D S P H E R E S...
Over the past 200 years, linguists have reconstructed the vocabulary and syntax of the postulated Indo-European protolanguage with increasing confidence and insight. They have tried to unravel the paths by which the language broke into daughter languages that spread throughout Eurasia, seeking at the origin of those paths the homeland of the protolanguage itself. The early investigators placed the homeland in Europe and posited migratory paths by which the daughter languages evolved into clearly defined Eastern or Western branches. Our work indicates that the protolanguage originated more than 6,000 years ago in eastern Anatolia and that some daughter languages must have differentiated in the course of migrations that took them first to the East and later to the West.

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SOLAR AMULET OF PROTECTION
FOUND ON THE BURIED BODY OF AN ARMENIAN NOBLEMAN
LCHASHEN. SECOND MILLENNIUM BC.
The reconstruction of ancient languages may be likened to the method used by molecular biologists in their quest to understand the evolution of life. The biochemist identifies molecular elements that perform similar functions in widely divergent species to infer the characteristics of the primordial cell from which they are presumed to have descended. So does the linguist seek correspondences in grammar, syntax, vocabulary and vocalization among known languages in order to reconstruct their immediate forebears and ultimately the original tongue.

[Artaxat]

Wisdom of the day

THE MIND IS NOT A VESSEL TO BE FILLED...BUT A FIRE TO BE LIGHTED...
PLUTARCH

[Artatama]

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Any one, who is more-less acquainted with the idea-spiritual system «Essence», which components are the theories of E-ism/Essence, «Genesis-Aya», the theory of Armenians as an Aryan race, with the adjacent literature and even with the materials represented only on this website, without any doubt or a prevention can find out from a material mentioned below, that the latter is just a fugitive reflection of the system «Essence» in spite of the fact that the author doesn't make any hint at all. Even more, he considers it as a personal authorship and is going to publish a theory under the very name “E-ism”. This is a really awfully phenomenon and most likely it has various reasons, which we'll reflect on other occasion. Here we only want to concentrate the attention of our readers. We give this phenomenon to your own observation and analyses. You have the right to be authentically informed.
Edition(added 18.01.2001) http://www.eutyun.org/RES/SL/KrTk/123_Ar_Divinity.jpg

The Genesis of Civilization
by Karekin Dickran
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http://www.eutyun.org/RES/S/ATG/ATG_2-2.gif http://www.eutyun.org/RES/S/ATG/ATG_2-2.gif The Sun God Ar/Hayk (Orion) and Holy Spirit Logos http://www.eutyun.org/RES/S/ATG/ATG_2-2.gif
The 30,000 Data base of Armenian rock carvings called Karetaran [Stone Library] records were hidden over 10,000 years and its divine message was used as a secret source of power. Unfortunately, at certain times, this sacred knowledge has been misused by certain forces to subjugate and control people. The archaic information of Karetaran is the main source of knowledge about Astronomy, Religion, various myths and highly developed cultural traditions, told through the medium of the hieroglyphic art language. These hierogrlyphs have documented the true Genesis Of Civilization. The attached rendered illustration is just one of the iconic hieroglyph ideograms whose deciphering is not an hypothesis, but is based upon facts depicted from Karetaran and compared with the earliest Egyptian twin-hieroglyphs and various other relevant writing systems as well as Egyptian wall paintings.
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Once there was a time when Humanity was One, and spoke the same language, and lived in the Divine Garden that was protected by the heavenly God/dess - (H)Aya. There was no sin or various discords between the people and there was only the atmosphere of a harmonious paradise. Around 9,000 BC., something terrible happened in the Armenian Highland and the Armenians were divided into many different branches. According to the New Zealand scientists R. D. Gray and Q.D. Atkinson (published their findings in 2003), the Proto-Indo-European Language is at least anywhere between 7,800 to 9,800 years old. It was during this time that the Armenians were separated from their common stem into many tribes and spread to all four corners of the world. Armenian hieroglyphs support this from an archaeological and religious point of view with their iconic astronomical, religious, mythological concepts, which are the basis of both visual arts and hieroglyphic recordings of ancient civilizations including: - Mesopotamian, starting from Sumerian [who attest that they came down to Mesopotamia from Armenian Highland], Hittite, Akkadian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Mitanni, Persian, Egyptian, Greece, prehistoric Europe, as well as Maya and Inca cultures.
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The attached archaic ideogram is identified with the Armenian Sun-God AR Ur-Er-Or [/B]prefix]. This notion is based upon the fact that the hieroglyph of a circle and circum-punct attached to the goat or the ram is found in the Armenian Highland dating back to ca. 8,000 BC. The ram/goat is one of the main totems of ancient Armenians. The goat with its joined horns is already identified by professor Hamlet Mardirosian as the symbol of a flag, indicating its divinity, this flag is used in Egyptian hieroglyphs among many other Armenian hieroglyphs. The circle attached to the goat/flag deity is the symbol that represents the Sun God. This symbol of a dot in the middle of the circle is the later Egyptian symbol of the Sun God RA, again in all probability brought down to the Nile Delta by ancient Armenian Astronomers who laid the foundations of a Spiritual Empire in Sumer, Egypt and beyond. The attached illustration found among Armenian rock hieroglyphs, is the original iconic ideogram that is today known as the Constellations of Orion and the Pleiades [Leg of the Bull]: "The Star Of The Gods," the brightest star in the Orion constellation is Sirius which the Armenians call Hayk - the son of the supreme[I]God of Gods - HAYA. Sirius is about twice the size of the sun and about 20 times as luminous, thus Haik is considered the incarnation of God of Gods Haya. The Egyptian Star Ra and celestial bodies are supported by the Egyptian version of Geb (also known as Seb, Keb, Kebb or Gebb) who was the God of the Earth and fertility. Ar, Ra and Christ are often represented through the same ideogram as the celestial incarnations of God of Gods Haya. Thus the attached ideogram is the very root and the symbolical foundation of all religions.
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The Pleiades stars in Astronomy are also commonly reffered to as the Seven Sisters, the brightest three stars form the celestial Triangle, [Star: TYC 1799 1026 1 - Star: HD 283271 - and the blazing star of Ar/Ra: HD 282943] as well as all 7 "Sister" Pyramids in Egypt are a duplicate model of Armenian supreme God of Gods Haya, and his Spiritual Kingdom on earth manifested by his son Hayk. In the Dendera Zodiac, all of the human figures have distinctive triangular forms, particularly evident in the figure representing Orion. Armenians call themselves Haikazian, meaning sons of Haik, The core idea of Trinity, that form the six-pointed star sometimes also called the Star of David (also in Hebrew called the Key of Solomon) in fact has much ancient origin. The Star of David concept represents two triangles - one positioned upwards - symbolizing the primordial Holy Mountain that rose out of the waters, and the other triangle with its base positioned downwards, represents heavenly father Haya - "As above, So below³ - thus, when joined together, the Six Pointed star represents Heaven and Earth in perfect harmony and in union of Oneness. The trinity in reality is: Father God of Gods Haya, the Constellation of Orion with that of Sirius as its brightest star representing the Son Ara/Hayk, and the Holy Spirit [Fertilizer] - all three in One. Ara/Hayk with its symbol of the winged disc is found throughout all ancient civilizations, even in modern times at places like the Washington Monument, depicted with two bird-headed serpents biting its tail - the symbol of eternity, which is also depicted on a ceremonial vessel in Medsamor Armenia ca. 4,000-3,000 BC and a star, probably the two headed serpents represent the Celestial ship of Ar/Ra or Lepus in the sky, sometimes interpreted as an evil serpent [duality] crushed under Orion´s foot. A visual portrayal of the first biblical prophecy about the coming Messiah in Genesis Chapter 3: v15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel". Orion was depicted in ancient times as a hunter with a skin of an animal in his hand. This very same skin is also found on ancient Armenian Vishapakars [Dragon Stones]. Armenians associate the Constellation of Orion with that of their Forefather - Hayk - the terrestrial embodiment of that constellation. Another iconic symbol is the The Washington Monument Obelisk´s cap stone, the primordial Mountain pyramid [BenBen Mound] which is the primordial Holy Mountain ArArAt, which was also symbolically represented through the Egyptian and many other similar pyramids of the globe.
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The etymology of Orion in Greek literally means - "Mountain Man." Orion also means "Coming Forth as Light." In Akkadian, Orion was named "Ur-Ana", the word Ur, is also spelled as Ar - "Ar-Ana" - probably Ana is the Armenian Nane (Sumerian Inanna), all of them meaning "Light of Heaven" whose cult was located in Armenian Ur-ha or present Urfa in historic Armenia. So the Cult of Ar is the central subject of the worship of Orion. In Greek Mythology Orion was a giant hunter and is depicted holding a lion´s head or skin in his left hand and a club in his right. Under Orion's feet were the faithful celestial dogs: Canis Major and Canis Minor in Armenian: Great Hayk and Lesser Hayk, later identified with Christ. Psalm 19: v1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handwork."
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This very same celestial triangle of Pleiades, joined with the reverse triangle of Mountain Ararat as earthly Triangle, is Found in Medsamor Armenia, the three ideograms are framed together with the ideogram É Astica and Chastica [Sacred Swastika] and the ideogram of eternity framed in exactly as the Egyptian cartouches, which is the oldest ideogram ever known. The entire Armenian Astrology and religion was exported by Armenians to Sumer, Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, Europe, Maya, Inca, also through Armenian-Aryan religion to Vatican, and by Freemasons to amongst other places Washington DC.
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The inscriptions on the back of the sphinx has been in all probability deliberately damaged. The Sphinx in Egypt is the same as the two Lions that were the guardians of the God's Garden in Armenia. [A separate article on this subject will be published soon]. The sphinx in Egypt represents the star-cluster Leo, although at present it has the face of Khafre and is claimed that Khafre built the Sphinx around 2,500 BC., which is about the 4th dynasty, but there are many clues and strong evidence that the original Sphinx was built by a far more advanced civilization around 8,000-10,000 BC. Who could have built such a masterpiece except the Armenian astrologers who were already developed mathematicians and mastered sacred geometry? So, we are certain that the head of the Sphinx initially was a Lion, which corresponds to the Armenian rock carvings. The facts confirm this point of view and equate it with the star-cluster of Leo - as the Guardian of God's Garden in Armenia.
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The Tree of Life is also a pure Armenian iconic symbol that we find among many cross shaped like symbols like the 'T' with a loop at the top. This symbol was especially used in Armenian hieroglyphs and in ancient Egypt as the Ankh - a symbol representing life. It is also called the Asante Cross. This symbol deserves a separate article which will be published soon. The Tree of Life [depicted in Armenia as the ideogram [Ankh] is the celebration of the Genesis of Life on Earth. It is high time to tell the truth about our national and spiritual heritage and to present the genuine Genesis of Civilization. Psalms 19: v3 "There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard." - for God of Gods, Haya the light of the universe is the Absolute of every TRUTH above and below.

[Artatama]

Hai Aryan Swastika (Gerkhach) symbols in the Armenian Highlands:

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CLOCKWISE AND COUNTERCLOCKWISE
POINTING SWASTIKAS. THE ONE ON THE RIGHT WITH RINGS.
GEGHAMA [TOTEMIC GEL...GAYL...WOLF] MOUNTAINS. THIRD MILLENNIUM BC.
SHAMANIC PRIESTS WERE VERY SPIRITUAL AND WERE ANIMISTS
IN TUNE WITH THE DIVINE UNIVERSAL ESSENTIAL LIFE FORCE...

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MANY OF THE SACRED SYMBOLS GOING ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE
NEOLITHIC REVOLUTION BROUGHT ABOUT BY THE ARMENIC SETTLED
COMMUNITIES SAW THE RISE OF TOTEMIC CLAN SYMBOLS...
MANY OF WHOM CONTINUED VIRTUALLY UNCHANGED AS THE
COAT OF ARMS OF THE ARMENIAN ROYAL HOUSES AND ARISTOCRACY.
IN FACT THE THE TRUE ESSENCE OF THE CURRENT COAT OF ARMS OF ARMENIA
[GEOMETRIC AND TOTEMIC SYMBOLISM] IS NOTHING
MORE THAN THE SYNTHESIS OF THE COATS OF ARMS OF THE
HISTORIC ARMENIAN DYNASTIES GOING ALL THE WAY BACK
TO THE TOTEMIC VULTURE/EAGLE/PHOENIX OF
THE FIRST SETTLED COMMUNITIES REPRESENTED
BY THE SHAMANIC HIGH PRIESTS DRESSED AS VULTURES
AND WEARING FISH 'MESH' CAPES [EA-HAYA]...THE LAND OF FIRE + WATER.

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DIVINE FIRE/CREATION. SYMBOL OF COSMOS ON THE CITY'S GATES


THE PALACE OF THE BAGRATIDS. TENTH CENTURY.
RECONSTRUCTION BY T‛OROS T‛ORAMANEAN

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ARMAN SYMBOL OF ETERNITY INLAID HIGH ABOVE -- INSIDE THE HUGE WALLS OF
THE CITY -- WITH TOWERING VISIBILITY -- IN HARMONIC RED-BLACK PATTERN.

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THE COSMIC SYMBOL WAS ALSO PLACED ABOVE THE ENTRY GATES TO THE CITY
NOTE THE UPWARD POINTING COSMIC HIERARCHY TRIANGLE.

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SOME OF THE DECORATIVE RELIEFS FROM THE GAGKASHEN CATHEDRAL



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Ē. THE SEVENTH SACRED LETTER AS THE SPINNING WHEEL OF ETERNITY WAS
PLACED ON THE SACRED [NOW IN RUINS] CATHEDRAL BY THE MASTER BUILDERS
ALONG WITH ATOM/HYDROGEN ALONG WITH THE SEVEN BRANCHED
SOLAR LOTUS/SUNBURST, VULVA/WOMBS/EYES, PENTA-RINGS,
AND THE SYMBOL OF MACROCOSM [FIRE + WATER].

[Artatama]

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The Christian Kingdom
Bagratunis, Siunik and Division
Tour Armenia

In 640 Arabs swarmed from the south, destroyed the Sassanids in Persia and began conquering Armenia and much of Asia Minor. In 652 the Armenian general Theodore Rshtuni was forced to recognize Arab suzerainty. With resumption of war between Byzantium and the Arabs, towns and provinces passed between rival empires, complicated further by dissension among Armenian lords, some of whom favored the Byzantines, while others favored the Arabs, who at first had seemed more liberal masters than the Greeks.
Arab rule became more oppressive when the Abbasids overthrew the Umayyad dynasty and Armenians revolted against the Arab rule in 774-5. The revolts were ruthlessly repressed. The devastation wrought by the Arabs was terrible, followed by a mass exodus into Byzantium, and the repopulating of deserted lands with Arab immigrants. From this period onward monasteries and churches began to be erected in more remote areas, many on almost impassable mountain paths, crevices and canyons.
The Arab influence on culture was noticeable: a decorative style of art and design entered the manuscript illuminations, and frescoes became more elaborate, using more floral and ornamental decoration. Not much is written about this period, but it is known that the Arabs were fairly tolerant to the Christian church, as long as it did not try and usurp their political authority. Still, manuscripts record repeated incursions by Arab armies and devastating destruction to monasteries, churches and cities. One of the key populations to suffer the most from Arab dominance was manuscript writers, illumination painters, and teachers. Dominance over the Armenian culture was as important a battle as political dominance.

The Bagratunis
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Following revolts and uprisings by Georgians and Armenians in 851, and a victorious campaign by Byzantine armies, the Arabs adopted more conciliatory policies towards the Armenians. This led to the appointment of Ashot Bagratuni (the Carnivorous) in 861, as Prince over Armenia, beginning a long period of eminence for his family (The Bagratid Dynasty). The Bagratunis had not participated in the revolt of 774-5, and so had retained their lands and position as the leading feudal family at the time.
The Bagratuni Kings (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tacentral.com% 2Fhistory%2Fbagratunis.htm)
Ashot established his son, Ashot I the Great as prince over Iveria, in present day Georgia. From then on the Bagratunis gradually enlarged their possessions and their domains extended from Taron in the southwest of Armenia to the provinces of Shirak and Arsharunik in the north. After being appointed Prince of princes, Ashot further strengthened his position. When the head of the Mamikonian family died, he took possession of the province of Bagrevand, and he forged alliances with the Artsruni's of Vaspurikan and the lords of the eastern provinces of Siunik. In 885-86, he was elected king of Armenia. The caliph confirmed this election and sent a crown, though he still considered the country a vassal state. Carefully avoiding taking sides in the war between the Arabs and Byzantines, he received a crown from Emperor Basil I, himself an Armenian.
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Ashot's son Smbat (890-914), was not as astute in politics as his father, ceding the city of Nakhichevan--belonging to the rival Artsruni's of Vaspurikan-- to the prince of Siunik. Incensed, Gagik Artsruni solicited the help of Yusuf, the Emir of Azerbaijan, an avowed enemy of Smbat. The caliph--delighting in the dissension, further provoked the situation by giving the crown to Gagik Artsruni, and the region of vaspurikan became a separate kingdom, the first of several created in this century. Yusuf and Gagik joined forces and defeated the royal armies in 914. Yusuf tortured and killed Smbat, and sent the body to Dvin to be nailed to a cross. Yusuf set about destroying the Bagratid kingdom, and were it not for the ascension of Smbat's son Ashot II, he might have succeeded. Gagik withdrew his alliance with Yusuf, Byzantium accepted the new king and sent aid, and the Arabs were forced to withdraw.
This began a renewed period of cultural development, including churches, monasteries and a flourishing of manuscript art, which--though begun as early as the 5th c. CE--achieved new levels of artistry. Resumption of international trade brought prosperity and the revival of artistic and literary pursuits. Hundreds of monasteries and churches, as well as thousands of exquisitely carved stone crosses (Khachkars) are traced to this period. The churches assumed their conical domed cruciform shapes, with elaborate carved images on the facades and frescoes in the inner sanctums. The capital city of Ani grew to a population of almost 100,000, more than any urban center in Europe. Religious life flourished and Ani became known as the "city of one thousand and one churches”.
It was in Ani, during the peak of the Bagratuni rule, that original studies on problems of pathology, therapy and pharmacology, so called "bzheshkaran's" (medical books) first appeared. Unfortunately time has not preserved for us the author's name of the famous "Bzheshkaran" which was written during the rule of the victorious king Gagik (990-1020) of the Ani Bagratuni dynasty. Later it was edited in Cilician Armenia and was called "Gagik-Hetumian bzheshkaran".

The Siunik Kingdom
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The Bagratid Empire stretched West and North, but in the South of Armenia, other royal families rose to ascendancy. Fractured by Arab invasions, Armenian lands were subdivided under ruling Armenian houses which cooperated or fought each other as much they did outside powers. Other kingdoms emerged, as the Bagratids and Artsruni's divided and subdivided their lands between sons and brothers. Another small kingdom was that led by the Zagikian (Zakarian) family, which rose to prominence in the end of the 9th century, creating the Siunik Kingdom. Like other princely families, the Zagikian family paid nominal homage to the Bagratuni’s and Arabs, but remained fairly autonomous.
By the end of Bagratid rule, what remained of the royal domain was divided between two brothers, Ashot IV and John-Smbat III. In 968 the kingdom of Vaspurikan was divided between three brothers. To this list is added, at the end of the 9th century, the principality of Taron, and the Siunik kingdom with its capital at of Kapan. On the road from Aghvank, Aterpatakan (Azerbaijan), Dvin and Ani, Kapan was an important trade center. With rich deposits of copper, gold and other minerals, Kapan was also an important center for metal working. The city was re-erected on order of Prince Zagik G (Zagik III), the son of Jevanshir. Closer to the Persian lands, yet fiercely resistant to cultural inroads, the Siunik Kingdom of the 9th-11th cc built some of the most complete examples of the Romanesque form, with little of the Persian and Arab influences in design found in other parts of the country.
Despite divisions, the 10th and early 11th centuries were mostly peaceful and prosperous ones. The Abbasid rulers to the South were locked in conflict with Byzantine armies, and unable to seriously interfere in Armenia. Local emirs accepted the Bagratunis, and invasions by neighboring Muslim dynasties had no lasting effects.

Breakup of the Alliance
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Internally, it was another matter, as the nobility and ruling class absorbed small holdings, reducing peasants to serfdom. There were a number of popular uprisings, in particular in Siunik, where the wealthy monastery and university at Tatev had acquired a number of villages. The peasants revolted, and it took armed intervention by the king of Siunik to subdue the peasants. Other revolts broke out in the country, including several heretical movements challenging the authority of the Catolicos and the Church.
The long reign of Gagik I (989-1020) marked the zenith of Bagratid rule. Armenia was at peace and prosperous, and the king embellished his capital Ani with new buildings. Transferred from Dvin in 961, the city grew so rapidly that less than 40 years after the construction of the boundary walls, a second line of fortifications was built, trebling the size of the original city. Palaces and churches were erected, and the population grew to over 100,000, then the largest city in the known world.
Upon Gagik's death, the kingdom rapidly declined, as his sons fought over the kingdom. This was a fatal situation during the time of Byzantium expansion and in the face of new eastern foe, the Seljuk Turks. In 966-67 Byzantium annexed Taron, followed by the Iberian Bagratid David II's Armenian lands and the kingdom of Vaspurikan in 1021-22 (under attack by the Seljuks).
The Bagratid king John Smbat III, fearful of reprisals for his assistance to the Georgian ruler, designated Basil II as his heir. After his death the claims of the Emperor were supported by pro-Byzantine elements in Ani. During the struggle that followed, the Byzantines were repulsed and the young prince Gagik was crowned king in 1042. He fought Byzantium and the emir of Dvin for three years, but was lured to Constantinople and forced to abdicate. Byzantine forces took possession of the city and the rest of the kingdom. All of Eastern and southern Armenia were a part of the Byzantine Empire, when Kars was ceded in 1064. Only Lori and Siunik retained independence.

[Artatama]

ArmenianHighland
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THE ROYAL DYNASTIES OF ARMENIA



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FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END - AN INTRODUCTION (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle570.html)
THE BEGINNING (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle571.html)
ARARAT - LAND OF THE GODS (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle572.html)
THE ARMENIC SHINARS (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle573.html)
THE AR-MEN AND ARMANIA (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle574.html)
THE KINGDOM OF MITANNI PART I (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle575.html)
THE KINGDOM OF MITANNI PART II (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle576.html)
THE KINGDOM OF MITANNI PART III (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle577.html)
THE KINGDOM OF MITANNI PART IV (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle578.html)
THE HAYASA-AZZI CONFEDERATION (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle579.html)
THE NAIRI CONFEDERATION (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle580.html)
THE KINGDOM OF ARARAT (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle581.html)
THE ORONTID DYNASTY (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle582.html)
THE ARTAXIAD DYNASTY (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle583.html)
THE ARSACID DYNASTY (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle584.html)
THE GAHNAMAK (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle585.html)
MARZPAN ARMENIA (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle586.html)
THE BAGRATID DYNASTY (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle587.html)
THE SIWNID DYNASTY (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle588.html)
THE ZAKARIDS (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle589.html)
THE ARTSRUNID DYNASTY (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle590.html)
THE RUBENID DYNASTY (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle591.html)
THE HETUMID DYNASTY (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle592.html)
THE LUSIGNAN DYNASTY (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle593.html)
THE END (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com%2Fkings%2Fchronicle594.html)

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/glxazarder/glxazard_570.gif


http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/tarer/ayb.gif


http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_813.jpg


THE MONARCHY: FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END
THE HIGH-PRIEST KINGS AND THE WARRIOR ARISTOCRACY


http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_988.jpg
INTRODUCTION



http://www.gandzasar.com/assets/armenian-crown/hayk-nahapet.jpg




One of the greatest heroic Epics of the Armenian people is the great Cosmic Epic of Hayk -- the Forefather and establisher of the first Armenian Kingdom of AR-MANIA in third millennium BC. The Epic was written down by Mowses Xorēnac‛i -- the father of Armenian History. Xorēnac‛i, wrote down the epic in his History of Armenia in the fifth century, from the oral tradition of the ancient troubadours. The epic story tells us of Hayk [ORION], the leader of the nation of Armens (Armans or Armins) of the original Indo-European Homeland [where the solar cult of Orion originated and spread throughout the world], in the impregnable Highlands of AR-Men-ia. The warrior-king organizes the Armens against the invading forces of the tyrant Bel (Baal) of Babylon attacking from south, from Mesopotamia into the highlands of ARARAT. The Great Armenian Calendar records -- August 11, 2492 BC -- as the day of the cosmic battle [August 11 = the day of the solar eclipse... the light...after...darkness] between the forces of the freedom loving Ar-Men and the invading forces of Bel Ar[/B]/Chaldean High-priest leaders were the enlightened rulers of Near East as far back as we have records and no doubt before that, the exalted civilization and influence extending to our own days...in the epic Bell is not hard on Hayk at all calling his 'small brother' to return to Babylon as ones Armenic settlers and the Edenic-Elder God culture from the first Neolithic communities brought civilization with the waters of sacred Tigris and Euphrates from the Highland Source...Hayk refuses the big brother...telling Bell to instead RETURN to PARADISE-PARTEZ in peace and love...not in arms...connoting the underlying Stellar and Cyclical significance of the great Epic].

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_3412.jpg
THE ARCHER BY G. XANJEAN [FROM THE HISTORIC TRIPTYCH].
ARCHETYPE OF H A Y K N A H A P E T. THE NATIONAL HERO
WHO CHAMPIONS THE FIGHT OF HIS PEOPLE AGAINST
OVERWHELMING ODDS OF FOREIGN TYRANNY.

Hail to the Dawn, Hail to the Dawn
Hail to the Rising Sun!
May the Sun give plenty of Life to Our King,
Vahé, Vahé...
Hail to the Dawn, Hail to the Dawn
Hail to the Rising Sun!
May the Sun give plenty of Life to Our Queen.
Vahé, Vahé...

-- Ancient folkloric hymn from VAN

A R E G - A K N

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_1944.jpg
[H]AY IN THE SKY



http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_4631.jpg
MAP SHOWING THE SPREAD OF THE NEOLITHIC REVOLUTION [THAT INCLUDED
REVOLUTIONARY URBANIZATION THAT SAW THE GENESIS OF AMONG OTHER THINGS...
THE SPOKEN MOTHER LANGUAGE...SPIRITUALISM [TOTEMIC ANIMISM-SHAMANISM,
THAT EVOLVED INTO STELLAR ASTROTHEOLOGY...MAPPING OF THE ZODIAC,
THE PLANETS, THE STARS AND CONSTELLATIONS...LATER BY THE SETTLED
ARMAN-SHINAR-SUMER COMMUNITIES THE INVENTION OF THE
WHEEL AND SACRED ARCHITECTURE, AGRICULTURALISM,
HORTICULTURALISM, DOMESTICATION OF ANIMALS...THE WAVES OF
ARMENIC COMMUNITIES WERE TAKING WITH THEM THE SACRED KNOWLEDGE
FROM THE EDENIC LAND OF THE ELDER GODS... TO ALL OVER THE WORLD...
IN ORDER TO CIVILIZE AND ELEVATE ALL OF HUMANITY IN ACCORD
WITH THE UNIVERSAL MISSION OF SPREADING THE CREATIVE SPIRIT.
AS EARLY AS 9,500 BC. THE REMARKABLE 2 METER TALL BALIKLIGÖL STATUE
[OLDEST MONUMENTAL STATUE IN THE WORLD]
FOUND IN THE IMMEDIATE VICINITY OF GÖBEKLI TEPE
IS CARBON DATED TO 11,500 BC.

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_6505.jpg

THE NEOLITHIC REVOLUTION BEGAN CIVILIZATION IN ARMENIAN
HIGHLAND AND IMMEDIATELY ADJOINING AREAS WITH THE FIRST SETTLED
COMMUNITIES THAT BEGAN TO CULTIVATE THE FIELDS, PLANT CROPS
[WHEAT, BARLEY, ETC] AND DOMESTICATION OF PREVIOUSLY WILD ANIMALS
[PIGS, SHEEP, CATTLE, GOATS ETC.]. THE SMELTING OF FIRST METALS
[FIRST COPPER, WHICH WOULD BE FOLLOWED BY BRONZE, AND EVENTUALLY
IRON BY THE ARMENIAN METAL WORKERS]
ALSO BEGAN IN 10TH MILLENNIUM BC [!] AT SITES LIKE CAYONU, AS WELL AS
THE FIRST WEAVING OF VARIOUS CLOTHS [AGAIN AT CAYONU] FOR DIFFERENT
APPLICATION [INCLUDING CLOTHES]. MONUMENTAL ARCHITECTURE
[GOBEKLI TEPE THAT BECAME KNOWN AS THE WORLD'S FIRST TEMPLE] AND
MONUMENTAL STATUES [NOW IN URFA MUSEUM] WERE ALSO ERECTED FOR THE
FIRST TIME IN ARMENIA. HORSES WERE DOMESTICATED A BIT LATER AND
MOST ANCIENT REMAINS OF BURIALS WITH HORSES WERE UNEARTHED
AT ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITES THROUGHOUT ARMENIA.

ACCORDING TO GROUNDBREAKING MATRIX CONSTRUCTED BY
QUENTIN ATKINSON AND RUSSELL GRAY THE NOSTRASTIC LAYER
THAT BEGAN CIVILIZATION WOULD START THE DIFFUSION PROCESS
TO PROTO-INDO-EUROPEAN THAT WOULD BEGIN TO THE BRANCHING OFF
AS EARLY AS 9,700 YEARS AGO. THE FINDS WERE MADE BASED ON A
BAYESIAN MATRIX OF 87 LANGUAGES AND NEARLY 4,500 DIALECTS
FROM ALL OF THE MAJOR LINGUISTIC GROUPS AND SUB-GROUPS.
ARMENIAN ALREADY DISTINCT AS A SEPARATE ROOT BRANCH IN THE
8TH MILLENNIUM BC WOULD REMAIN IN THE ORIGINAL
INDO-EUROPEAN HOMELAND
AS ONE OF THE OLDEST SATEM BRANCHES ALONG THAT OF HITTITE
[NOW EXTINCT] AND TOCHARIAN [ALSO EXTINCT]. INTERESTINGLY
THE TOCHARIANS ACTUALLY CALLED THEMSELVES URUMS OR
ARAMS AND THE TRACE OF THEIR IS STILL PRESENT IN THE
CHINESE CITY OF URUMCHI.


THE SPREAD OF CIVILIZATION FROM THE SOURCE HIGHLAND OF
FOUR SACRED RIVERS [NAIRI-NAHARIN...THE LAND OF FIRE AND WATER
...NAH/NAX...BEGINNING...FIRST AS IN NAXARAR]...ALL OVER THE WORLD
INCLUDING 'THE NEW WORLD' THAT WAS 'DISCOVERED' BY THE CAUCASIAN
PROMETHEANS [ARMENIC CAUCASIAN A.MAZ.ON WOMEN WERE EQUAL DISCOVERS
AND CARRIERS OF CIVILIZATION LIKE THEIR MEN FOLK]
LED BY THAT IMMORTAL HIGH SPIRIT AND CREATIVE MISSION
[ARAKELAKAN...] MANY MILLENNIA AGO...


A R M A N E N B O O K OF TRANSCENDENCE. AST.ARA.

THE MONUMENTAL WORK GIRN zĒ ANUN AY [Ē...THE LETTER OFREVELATION AND[B] ĒNLIGHTENMENT] BY A. A. VARBEDIAN
THE QUINTESSENTIAL GREAT WORK OF THE PHILOSOPHER
[I]DEVOTEE OF ĒSSENCE. PUB. IN 2006 IN YEREVAN. THE SAME
YEAR THAT THE GROUNDBREAKING FINDINGS AT
PORTALER-GÖBEKLI TEPE WERE PUBLISHED BY KLAUS SCHMIDT.
OUTLINING THE BEGINNING OF THE NEOLITHIC REVOLUTION AND
BEGINNING OF CIVILIZATION IN AND IMMEDIATELY AROUND
ARMENIAN HIGHLAND BY THE CREATIVE MIND OF FIRST
SETTLED ARMENIC COMMUNITIES. WITHOUT THE SPIRITUAL
EVOLUTION OF MAN...CIVILIZATION WOULD NOT COME ABOUT
AS DRS. SCHMIDT AND HAUPTMANN OF THE GERMAN ARCHAEOLOGICAL
INSTITUTE SO RIGHTLY OUTLINED...THE SLEEPING GOD/MAN...AWOKE
AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY SELF-REALIZED THAT HE
IS...IMMORTAL...IT IS HERE THAT TRUE HUMAN HISTORY BEGINS...
AND IT IS HERE THAT VARBEDIAN OPENS THE EYES OF HIS READER
AND THUS OPENS THE HEAVENLY DOORS OF THE GREAT BEYOND...


GUARDIANS OF ARMAN HIGH CULTURE.

The decisive battle takes place near the shores of Lake Van. Haik fires a triple headed broad arrow from his long bow directly into the chest of Bel of Babylon. The ample arrow splits the breastplate of Bel, who mortally wounded, falls to the ground. Bels soldiers flee the battlefield after the death of their leader. Haik calls on his kinsmen to unite into one single nation and kingdom in order to defend and continue to cultivate and enrich the ancestral homeland. Haik establishes a settlement -- Haikashēn which becomes the nucleus of the Armenian Kingdom centered around Van-Vaspurakan. Haik places his sons in charge of strategically important areas of Armenia to guard and prevent any further hostilities from foreign incursions into the LAND OF ARARAT [zErikrn Hayoc‛ Araraday].


O R I O N
http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_4705.jpg

Hayk, thought by some scholars to be a mythical Indo-European folk hero, is most probably one of the early leaders who was an Armenic king and was later deified as the supreme embodiment of the virtuous character of the hero king. [C]Haldi [connected with the name Chaldean] -- most probably another name for Hayk -- was the God of War and Victory in the exoteric pantheon of gods of Ararat. [C]Haldi was the supreme deity in the holy triad of the primary [exoteric manifest] Gods in the sacred pantheon of Ararat [the other two being Shivini -- the Sun God -- and -- Teyshub -- the God of Lightning -- all three male gods had their three female counterpart goddesses of Beauty, Fertility and Providence] in the second millennium BC.

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_5500.jpg

Thousands of years later, in the first century AD, another Armenian leader, bearing the sacred name of his kinsmen -- Armen or Ar-Man, known Armin to the Romans and Herman [German] to the Indo-European Cheruski would lead the renowned contingent of 30,000 Armenian horsemen in Bavaria [to this day a lot of Bavarians have, like in so many places throughout Europe, Armenian blood in their veins] against the Romans annihilating three legions of about 20,000 men under the Roman general Publius Quinctilius Varus

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_2711.jpg
STANDING UP AND DEFENDING THOSE THAT ARE UNABLE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES

at the battle of Teutoburg Forest, recorded in local Bavarian epics of the Middle Ages stating that they are "highlanders from the mountains of Armenia." It is also important to note here that in Old German the name Ashkenaz was both the name for Armenia [I]and Germany, in the Armenian primary sources Ashkenaz [Koriwn, the disciple of Maštoc‛ for example] is always stated as Ashkenazian gund or Ashkenaz cavalry -- another branch of Armenic [Arman] Indo-Europeans, that later split off were the Scythians who were also called Aškuza [and Ask‛anaz is a common name amongst Armenians to this day]. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle of the Middle Ages would also recount the ancient story of their ancestors originating from Armenia. Some scholars also pointed out that the name Hayk implies Hayak -- son of [H]AYA [EA -- ĒUT'IWN -- DIVINE ESSENCE].

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_1487.jpg
T H E L A N D O F A R . THE SACRED HIGHLAND WITH ALL OF THE
INDO-EUROPEAN KINSMEN TRIBES WITH AR-HAR-UR-ER-IR-OR VARIATION
PREFIXES DENOTING THEIR COMMON ORIGIN AND KINSHIP

The ancient Armenian word for King -- ARKA -- is synonymous with -- AREGAK -- SUN -- with the sacred AR root. AR-MAN the name the primordial ancestor seers called themselves meant MEN of AR. The word Ar-Ar-ich [Creator] also referred to the celestial Sun [as the cosmic Solar eternal masculine force of creation and sustenance of LIFE -- Generation/Regeneration combined with sacred eternal feminine Matrix and the terrestrial Matter/Mother Earth], with the double AR signifying Unity or the Totality [the Whole] of plurality [which are simply different parts of The One].
http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_621.jpg


ArmenianHighland
http://www.armenianhighland.com (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armenianhighla nd.com)

[Artatama]

http://www.virtualani.org/beyondani.htm (http://www.enationalist.com/forum/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.virtualani.org %2Fbeyondani.htm)
ANI -- Means Fire and Flame, or more precisely a Fiery Goddess. So let the Great City of Ani be an Eternal Flame, in the hearts of all Armenians, in order that she burns the flame of freedom in their hearts and souls and Becomes the Phoenix of Rebirth... Let the heart of the Armenian nation burn bright, for that which burns radiates Light -- Faith -- so that the coming days will be luminous -- after -- our New Life.
-- Avetik' Isahakian

1902, July 4, written amongst the ruins of Ani

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_6471.jpg
BLOOD RED RUINS OF THE MOTHER CATHEDRAL....

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/glxazarder/glxazard_250.gif

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/tarer/za.gif

THE FALL OF ANI

http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_6473.jpg
THE RUINS OF THE CHURCH OF ST. GREGORY THE ILLUMINATOR.


http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_6472.jpg

Pictures from Van

http://www.enationalist.com/forum/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Akdamar_kirche.jpg

http://www.enationalist.com/forum/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Akdamar_Church.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Akdamar_and_mountain.jpg

http://www.enationalist.com/forum/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Akhtamar_Island_on_Lake_Van_with_the_Armenian_Cath edral_of_the_Holy_Cross.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Surb_Khach_-_Akhtamar_-_khachkar_from_1434_%282000%29.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Surb_Khach_-_Akhtamar_-_khachkar_%281913%29.png

[Armenian Bishop]

Perhaps, Artatma has moved us into the place of the heart, with this cultural transfusion of many aspects of Armenian Civilization. We are transported into the next step of our inquiry, with these windows into the souls of Armenians, many of whom created the very landscape which we now gives an illumination of inspiration.

The next step of our inquiry leads us into the very Heart, Soul and Spirit of Armenian Civilization endowed with a cultural history which Traditional European Civilization should be proud to embrace. Behold, Ancient Armenian Civilization, and the very landscape of Armenia, has reached into the depth of European Wisdom. We need look no further than Moses Xorenatsi to get a taste of Armenian Civilization, but we must search the full spectrum of the Soul of Armenian Civilization to go into the depths of Armenian Character, as it can be linked to Europe.

Present Day Armenia is only a small piece of Armenia; tragically, most of the surrounding Historic Homeland has been Devastated by Cultural Genocide, with the Intentional Ruination of Armenian Cultural Monuments, as well as the Depopulation of Armenians in their own Armenian Highlands:

* Crosses that mark Armenian Graves have been pounded into rubble by Azeris of neighboring Present Day Azerbaijan.

* Armenian Monasteries in Present Day Turkey, where monks believed themselves secure behind monastic walls, now ghostly ruins of their former grandeur. Yes, Turkey has made it a mission to destroy any traces of The Armenians Who once lived in the area that we now call Present Day Eastern Turkey, but once described as Armenia. The list of destructive work, to remove traces of Armenians in Turkey is astronomically vast.

* And, Georgia has removed the traces of Armenian Identity, to rename Armenian Churches as Georgian Churches.

* Of all the countries that share a border with Armenia, only Iran has worked heroically to preserve Armenian Cultural Monuments, especially Armenian Churches.

* So much beauty in such a small piece of the Historic Armenian Homeland, while most of Armenian Civilization lies in ruins within neighboring Turkey and Azerbaijan. What a Tragedy!

[Bloodraven]

Armenia is regarded as politically in Europe by the EU


So is Israel. Your point?

[Nairi]

Artaxat, don't respond to Northern Caucasian trolls, we have nothing to explain to these people, neither I have any interest in them.

[Artaxat]

http://sacredsites.com/middle_east/turkey/images/mt-ararat-500.jpg

[Bloodraven]

If instead of engaging in a serious discussion you choose to resort to name-calling, it's your call.
I won't post here anymore.

[Artaxat]

[/B][/U]ANI -- Means Fire and Flame, or more precisely a Fiery Goddess. So let the Great City of Ani be an Eternal Flame, in the hearts of all Armenians, in order that she burns the flame of freedom in their hearts and souls and Becomes the Phoenix of Rebirth... Let the heart of the Armenian nation burn bright, for that which burns radiates Light -- Faith -- so that the coming days will be luminous -- after -- our New Life.
-- Avetik' Isahakian


The time is near when ANI shall be liberated.

ANI , "City of 1001 Churches", Ani stood on various trade routes and its many religious buildings, palaces, and fortifications were amongst the most technically and artistically advanced structures in the world.

At its height, Ani had a population of 100,000–200,000 people and was the rival of Constantinople, Baghdad and Cairo. Long ago renowned for its splendor and magnificence, Ani has been abandoned and largely forgotten for centuries

http://www.virtualani.org/

Who knows about ANI today? We shall rebuild it, resurrect it, and let the world admire once again the paradise called ANI, City of 1001 Churches

[Artaxat]

guys what do you think about this map? 1300 BC

http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_1300bc.jpg

[Odoacer]

So not only is Armenia in Europe & the Urheimat of the Indo-Europeans, it is the beginning of human civilization & the location of the Garden of Eden! :rofl: Next thing you'll tell me is that China was founded by Armenians. Can we please get back to some SERIOUS discussion? Or is this just going to be another thread full of Armenian propaganda? :rolleyes2:

[Artaxat]

GEGHARD monastry
The monastry walls-columns are carved straight into the mountain and there's even a water spring in it (and yes, I believe it has healing power, fact is most mountain waters have healing properties)

http://i.imgur.com/N9yo4.jpg

Blend of Christian Animistic Symbols
http://www.armenian-history.com/images/churches/Geghard/Geghart%20monastery%20XIIIC_interior_small.jpg

http://foodperestroika.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/armenianmonasteries3-small.jpg

Carved in a mountain!
http://images.travelpod.com/users/mys/4.1227546780.geghard-monastery-interior.jpg

Exterior view

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Geghard_monastery.jpg

http://www.brodyaga.com/pages/photos/Armenia/Geghard%20Armenia%201233109685.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_c6qXdPj0QyA/S3Z6mr7iEoI/AAAAAAAACLw/0LGK7hLYNxk/s400/geghard-0cave28-vgn-l.jpg

http://ssaes.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/P1010177.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3PoWF79C860/Ti6rZrxos9I/AAAAAAAAENc/YWXphWsUPao/s1600/IMG_0874.jpg

http://linkavia.com/content/images/hiking_routes/4/big/2.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5099/5525857226_03d58d7549.jpg

SunDial in Geghard
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3245/2908967903_51c0d781c5_z.jpg

Beautiful Vaults with upper opening
http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/55/5546/IU4LG00Z/posters/daffey-mark-tomb-at-back-of-geghard-monastery-complex.jpg

[Artaxat]

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/15/4889968-Mysteriously_muslimpagan_Geghard.jpg

http://www.thecompassculture.com/subs/jan09/5-3.jpg

Just look at those walls (mountains) reminds me a bit of petra
http://www.globespots.com/pictures/europe/armenia/geghard_6406.jpg

Ealry Christian animistic tradition
The fierce lion and the unyielding bull
http://www.findarmenia.com/images/photo_1/5_225_1299237518.jpg

Sweet bread
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DTp1FQxvcyA/TlTEf0spwVI/AAAAAAAABmk/ainMhk3hB90/s1600/geghard15.jpg


http://ianyanmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/2910350766_52695a98cf_b.jpg

Beautiful
Archs
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2v_uZIwa73o/ThbGsodTMMI/AAAAAAAADoI/uloTGiJmPdc/s1600/11_06_27_Garni%2526Geghard%2B005.jpg

Spooky
http://www.funtour.am/images/info/big/13.Geghard%2004_resize.JPG

http://ylt.azhdahak.com/img/Geghard_01.jpg

http://www.ranonus.com/webplaatjes%20olie/geghard2.jpg

I will not mention anything about acoustics, other than most who enter into the caves spontaneously vocalize mantras AAAAAAAAA...OOOOOOOO
:D
The resonance lasts around 40 seconds after the acoustic source has been stopped.

Sharakan ensemble recorded many of the Sacred Hymns in Geghard.

[Rron]

So not only is Armenia in Europe & the Urheimat of the Indo-Europeans, it is the beginning of human civilization & the location of the Garden of Eden! :rofl: Next thing you'll tell me is that China was founded by Armenians. Can we please get back to some SERIOUS discussion? Or is this just going to be another thread full of Armenian propaganda? :rolleyes2:
Please dont say that this is not funny:D

[Artaxat]

May the souls of the dark ones be enlightened




9OOGWcefy-c

[Artaxat]

del

[Hess]

what are all these pics supposed to proving (or disproving)? :confused:

[Artaxat]

what are all these pics supposed to proving (or disproving)? :confused:

nothing mate, not proving anything :D

just showing Armenian culture to whoever interested.

If you do not want to see them I can delete. Shall I?

[Nairi]

So not only is Armenia in Europe & the Urheimat of the Indo-Europeans, it is the beginning of human civilization & the location of the Garden of Eden! :rofl: Next thing you'll tell me is that China was founded by Armenians. Can we please get back to some SERIOUS discussion? Or is this just going to be another thread full of Armenian propaganda? :rolleyes2:

1) David M. Lang, Armenia: Cradle of Civilization (London: George Allen & Unwin, 1970)

2) If the Scriptures are rightly understood it was in Armenia that Paradise was placed, Armenia, which has paid as dearly as the descendants of Adam for that fleeting participation of its soil in

the happiness if Him who was created from its dust. It was in Armenia that the flood first abated and the dove alighted. But with the disappearance of Paradise itself may be dated almost the unhappiness of the country, for though long a powerful kingdom, it was scarcely ever an independent one, and the satraps of Persia and the pachas of Turkey have alike desolated the region where God created man in his own image.

Lord Byron to Mr. MURRAY
Venice, March 3rd, 1817

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/08633.jpg

Published by Dezauche and engraved by Marie F. Duval.

Detail from a Biblical map by the French cartographer Philippe Buache published in Paris in 1783. Armenia is marked as “EDEN où était LE PARADIS TERRESTRE.


http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/165372_173945459304344_100000666723145_431835_8102 697_n.jpg


ARMENIA
The Land of the Biblical Paradise on the Earth,
from the famous John Wetstein Bible, Amsterdam, 1730



http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/ar.png

From a Gospel published in London in 1634 Armenia is depicted as the birthplace of all mankind

[Odoacer]

Keep it up, Nairi. You just prove that you aren't looking for serious discussion. You are an Armenian propagandist, no more.

[Artaxat]

I was there at the Kohar concert, the light show was mind-blowing...watch it!!

Was a projected show on the opera house! AMAZING!

xciaAIBTg_c

[Rron]

1)



From a Gospel published in London in 1634 Armenia is depicted as the birthplace of all mankind:clap2:

[Artaxat]

Oldest Babylonian clay tablet map and Armenia is on it (as well as Assyria)!

http://www.armenica.org/history/maps/Babylonian-clay6BC-gal1a.jpg


http://www.armenica.org/history/maps/babylonian-clay-6bc-gal1b.gif

All nations dissappeared! Armenia still exists! :D

The Babylonian Map of the World is a diagrammatic labeled depiction of the known world from the perspective of Babylonia.

The clay tablet resides at the British Museum (BM 92687)

And a regional map of the Caucasus with modern Armenia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Caucasus_region_1994.jpg

Greater Armenia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Arshakuni_Armenia_150-en.svg

Armenian Empire
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Maps_of_the_Armenian_Empire_of_Tigranes.gif

[Nairi]

1) David M. Lang, Armenia: Cradle of Civilization (London: George Allen & Unwin, 1970)

2) If the Scriptures are rightly understood it was in Armenia that Paradise was placed, Armenia, which has paid as dearly as the descendants of Adam for that fleeting participation of its soil in

the happiness if Him who was created from its dust. It was in Armenia that the flood first abated and the dove alighted. But with the disappearance of Paradise itself may be dated almost the unhappiness of the country, for though long a powerful kingdom, it was scarcely ever an independent one, and the satraps of Persia and the pachas of Turkey have alike desolated the region where God created man in his own image.

Lord Byron to Mr. MURRAY
Venice, March 3rd, 1817

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/08633.jpg

Published by Dezauche and engraved by Marie F. Duval.

Detail from a Biblical map by the French cartographer Philippe Buache published in Paris in 1783. Armenia is marked as “EDEN où était LE PARADIS TERRESTRE.


http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/165372_173945459304344_100000666723145_431835_8102 697_n.jpg


ARMENIA
The Land of the Biblical Paradise on the Earth,
from the famous John Wetstein Bible, Amsterdam, 1730



http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/ar.png

From a Gospel published in London in 1634 Armenia is depicted as the birthplace of all mankind


Now we know that Bible is "Armenian Propaganda" :D :D :D

[Hess]

nothing mate, not proving anything :D

just showing Armenian culture to whoever interested.

If you do not want to see them I can delete. Shall I?

not at all, I am actually quite interested in learning about the cultures of different nations so if anything you should post more :thumb001:

[Artaxat]

Just for info guys, Today I dont feel like discussing. But more feeling pictographic/audio visual.

So I wont talk much, only post pics and vids about Armenians and our culture...but I'm sure Nair would like to discuss

And when I say discuss ( I mean heated debates) :D

small talks most gladly :)


not at all, I am actually quite interested in learning about the cultures of different nations so if anything you should post more :thumb001:

Most gladly Hess, I will post for quite a long time.

I am a diasporan Armenian, who was been ripped off his identity, lost his language...and now I try to reclaim my heritage, it was only last year that I first was in Armenia.

So please do understand my enthusiasm

I try to spread and share Armenian history, simply because I was most impressed by what I recently learned. Not to mention by what I saw in Yerevan museum!

[Artavazt]

Iv been blamed for posting armenia dna data,and now i see some pictures of stupid breads and other non sense stuff :confused:

[Artaxat]

Well we were trying to have a civilized discussion, until the turko with his friends started a trolling parade. So I gave up rational discussion efforts as I do not see it a serious debating platform.

But feel free to orient the thread whichever direction you feel like.

[Sylvanus]

Armenian Empire
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Maps_of_the_Armenian_Empire_of_Tigranes.gif


In the reality:

http://www.padfield.com/bible-times/roman-army/images/roman-army-06.jpg

[Eva]

17uLO_j69M8

RlybzM3OnPs

EZSic5r2tsg

[PBachman]

In the reality:

http://www.padfield.com/bible-times/roman-army/images/roman-army-06.jpg

Why are you trying to derail the thread?

[Sylvanus]

Why are you trying to derail the thread?


Why do you support the spreading of unscholalry bullshits?



By the way the Ararat Brandy was very delicious with my lunch today. Say thanks that I support the economy of Armenia. :D

http://robertburnswines.com/sitewp/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ARA0010203.jpg

[Armenian Bishop]

Why do you support the spreading of unscholalry bullshits?



By the way the Ararat Brandy was very delicious with my lunch today. Say thanks that I support the economy of Armenia. :D

http://robertburnswines.com/sitewp/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ARA0010203.jpg

If there is something wrong, please tell us exactly what it is that you find unscholarly, instead of posting a picture of a Roman Legion, with very little explanation. The suspicions, about derailing the thread, arose when you didn't make yourself clear, even if its a misunderstanding. Perhaps, you're just not aware of some historical facts about Armenian History, because of a blind spot in your knowledge.

I'm glad that you enjoyed the Armenia Brandy. I like it very much too.

[Armenian Bishop]

In the reality:

http://www.padfield.com/bible-times/roman-army/images/roman-army-06.jpg

Like it or not, under the rule of Tigranes the Great, Armenia was an empire which included all of the area, specified in the map. Any well informed scholar would agree with that: The purpose of the map was to determine the size of Armenia, at its greatest size, when it was an empire.

[PBachman]

Why do you support the spreading of unscholalry bullshits?



By the way the Ararat Brandy was very delicious with my lunch today. Say thanks that I support the economy of Armenia. :D

http://robertburnswines.com/sitewp/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ARA0010203.jpg

What is unscholarly about it? Please elaborate. Furthermore, what does Armenian brandy have to do with supporting the Economy of Armenia? Look mate, if you think the brandy is shit, please, by all means, don't buy it.

[Nairi]

Armenia

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/4046843963_7254ecaea3_z1-600x450.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/4303832671_a2d4b213b4_z-600x491.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/4207491513_aafa91a3a8_z-600x400.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/4147274614_348484f223_z-600x401.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/4143294016_2181978bb3_z-600x400.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/4092246175_26be4ce7ac_z-600x399.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/4046843979_0c66129861_z-600x450.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/3888090978_0f9a7f8820_z.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2475/4029739867_8ccb4c81b2_z.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1381/764750657_eab3af9ac8_z.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3419/3262196308_1df125d151_z.jpg?zz=1

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/4275741069_302a8c6f30_z-600x397.jpg

[Nairi]

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/3837228064_12aea6f95a_z-600x399.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/3582992409_bcc74d50d2_z1-600x395.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/3746025088_9614a4402e_z.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/3394566563_1f840d83cf_z-600x399.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/3307657772_043c849f96_z1-600x399.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/3257250445_043de2fe3f_z-600x397.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/3120396521_8fefee2919_z-600x450.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/2990707625_538510d1bd_z-600x400.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/2910559590_41b738687e_z.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/2667692192_d0d1188412_z-600x433.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/2645893342_936c721ab6_z-600x450.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/2264002141_0617fe2840_z-600x430.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/2184913934_55ec46be40_z-600x398.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/1613814630_d0a236010d_z-600x450.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/698859654_fd284f247d_z-600x383.jpg

[Sylvanus]

What is unscholarly about it? Please elaborate. Furthermore, what does Armenian brandy have to do with supporting the Economy of Armenia? Look mate, if you think the brandy is shit, please, by all means, don't buy it.

Coz is it an fameous armenian product made in Armenia by armenians? Moreover is it an unique "Armenicum"? This is so fav. drink among hungarian armenian diaspora and among hungarians.

Please, next time think before posting craps.

[PBachman]

Coz is it an fameous armenian product made in Armenia by armenians? Moreover is it an unique "Armenicum"? This is so fav. drink among hungarian armenian diaspora and among hungarians.

Please, next time think before posting craps.

No, trust me, I think. ;)

I see ... well you like it, good, buy more if you do! :thumb001:

[Mordid]

Beautiful pictures.

[Sylvanus]

Like it or not, under the rule of Tigranes the Great, Armenia was an empire which included all of the area, specified in the map. Any well informed scholar would agree with that: The purpose of the map was to determine the size of Armenia, at its greatest size, when it was an empire.

Of course, this time Armenia have the greatest expansion however this "empire" was so instabile, caducous and at least it became an roman client-kingdom.

Furthermore the map is not so precise coz f.E. 68. B.C. Lucullus' army penetrated in Armenia and the map show all those regions owned by Tigranes the Great till 66 B.C.


I think the so long armenian history and the very old age of armenian people speak for itself and armenians don't need imprecise maps like this. This maps is so similar to the maps of other people's nationalist whos want show greater and greater territory owned by own people however the tansient conquest do not correlate with culture or staying power of a people. F.E. the huns proven conquered half Europe long time ago and where are the huns now???

[Sylvanus]

No, trust me, I think. ;)

I see ... well you like it, good, buy more if you do! :thumb001:

If you are an over-minded armenian, you will be able to give a sauce for this concert video coz I never find it. Furthermore this shitty version haven't got full lenght audio, lol. THX in anticipation!


aSAvkJxsIyA

[Nairi]

Of course, this time Armenia have the greatest expansion however this "empire" was so instabile, caducous and at least it became an roman client-kingdom.

Furthermore the map is not so precise coz f.E. 68. B.C. Lucullus' army penetrated in Armenia and the map show all those regions owned by Tigranes the Great till 66 B.C.


I think the so long armenian history and the very old age of armenian people speak for itself and armenians don't need imprecise maps like this. This maps is so similar to the maps of other people's nationalist whos want show greater and greater territory owned by own people however the tansient conquest do not correlate with culture or staying power of a people. F.E. the huns proven conquered half Europe long time ago and where are the huns now???

I think any nation would be proud to know their country is depicted on Collizium wall

3AtA_JIWDHk

[Artavazt]

I remember some desert nomads were insulting us,for the presence of of hurrian and other non ie elements in armenians,and using it as an excuse to make us look "non european" but i just found some links between hurrians,georgians and basques (in iberia).Which explains the link of armenans with pre IE tribes and nations




Vahan Sargisyan President of International Linguistical Academy
BASQUES AND ARMENIANS
THE SECRET PAGES OF EUROPEAN CIVILIZATION

At The End of past century english scientist Edward Spencer Johnson absolutely accidentally has done very interesting opening.Being already well-known basqolog, Johnson has decided, in purposes of expansion of own outlook, study armenian language,and has enterred in parisian "Ecole special", in the class of famous philologist Ogust Career.The Result was highly unexpected: after whole only bimonthly courses Johnson has noticed that many armenian words practically are identical with basque. His own cogitations about these lexical coincidences Johnson has published in 1884, in journal "Euskera" ("Basque language") under intriguing headline "Basque words in armenian language". The List noticed the parallels between more than fifty words. It was as thunder in clear sky, for the scientists , who already ,for a long time inhere under hypnosis of basque-georgian hypothesis.Johnson couldn't explain the reason of existance of the similiarites among basque-armenian and thought that those may be comes from geogean,regardless of the fact that they have no parallels in georgian.Besides it the question is highly important layer of vocabulary spare, traditionally considering suit fund of each language. And most curious in that discovered basque-armenian coincidences in both languages are at a rate of full rapport :for example (with transcriptions) BS- char «bad, evil» - ARM. char «bad, evil», BS. anti «from there» - ARM. anti «from there», BS. ais «wind» -ARM. ais «wind», BS. zati «separate» - ARM. zat «apart», BS. tegi «place» - ARM. tegh «place» ..... The second important opening in that field was made after more than fourth century .In 20-e years young basque philologist Bernardo Estornes Lasa, subsequently largest scientist and academician,concern with collection of basque folk-lore material in Rapcal valley, in east part of province Navarra.So here , in village Isaba, nearly on most east border of Navara, Estornes Lasa has written local legend about that, that village Isaba is founded by armenians,which were first inhabitants of Navarra and the ancestors of basque folk. The legend tells that leader of basque folk called Aytor, he has arrived from Armenia with his seven sons and in their honour has founded seven settlings in Navarra.It Is spoken also that visitor armenian, ancestor of basques, knew secret of processing the metal. Subsequently in archives of villages have found the old-time manuscript, a historic chronic , which confirms the spoken legends.Highly notable that in basque language a name Isaba is translated as "Trace of ancestors".At though this can seem absolutely incredible, but fact remains the fact , in village Isaba hitherto exists a road, which carries the name Erminia.The Public tradition links its with the name of an Armenia - in honour of first colonizers of Navarra. All this could be shown as figment of imagination of basque oldsters, as for a long time consider many researchers, however the science has enterred , in particular linguistics and historiography, as well as mythology. In basque language a name of storied ancestor of basques Aytor verbatim means "Received from Aya" or "Occurring from Aya" which enough exactly corresponds to armenian design 'hay tor'("grandson of armenian").The fact was shown by the known german scientist Ioseph Karst. It was also proven that the famous ancestor of armenians Hayk really has a grandson, whose name was Pask. For the first time on possible relationship between armenian name Pask and etnoname of basque has indicated bay Nikolayos Marr. It's Interesting that in basque language exists an expression 'aytoren seme' ("thoroughbred"), verbatim meaning "the son of Aytor". This is indicative of that ,that in antiquities amongst basques thoroughbred were considered only one,who leds origin from one of the direct descendants of the ancestor Aytor, arrived from Armenia. The Further researches have brought new openings. The all said facts and coincidences were the only higher part of iceberg of the most great secret of european civilization.As it was realized,the theory of the armenian origin of the oldest folk of Europe has it deep roots in its historical memory and has found its reflection in basque written sources.As far back as XVI-XVII ages founders of basque national historiography Garibay,Andres de Posa and Baltasar de Echave considered Armenia the prehomeland of basques and try this prove on the base of basque-armenian toponimic coincidences... Araks (The name of a river in Armenia and in the Land of Basque) and the name of basque mountain Apalar, which was repeatedly compared with the famous biblical Ararat.Moreover, de Posa confirms that basques are from Armenia.He even elaborates that the city Taragona on was founded by armenians and on their language a name Taragona meant "commune of shepherds".It is difficult to say anything about this translation, but main in that ,that the name Taragona highly reminds the known armenian state Taron, the ancient form is - Tarawna. For three centuries the opinion of the historians about the armenian origin of basques became a national tradition and has got very broad spreading. The List of firsthands renews a spanish historian of XVII century Gaspar Eskolano , in his book about the histories of the city Valencia (1610) ,writes that after Worldwide flood a patriarch Tubal and its people disembark on the east seaside of Spains and that they talk on armenian language. Besides Gaspar Eskolano ,with exceeding accuracy, describes the place, where, according to legend, were was buried the remainses of armenians -the first inhabitants of Spain. Now on that places, on the territory of modern Catalonia , are located churches, and this prompts that point that the area was considered as saint. Regrettably, all these information too long remain in darkness of oblivion by reason of that,that in due course basque material wasn't analysed and evaluated in light given by armenian sources and armenian language. And when in twentieth years of present century german linguist Joseph Karst has proceeded to detailed and all-round study basque-armenian theory, in a sense there was already enough late.For passed period in basqology has firmly motivated hypothesis about georgian origin of basques.obtained many supporters. Eastern, but indeed purely armenian orientation of basque national tradition, create beneficial ground for "kartvelizing" of basques,more for that the armenian side continues save full indifference.It goes to that, that with basque language have begun match such georgian words,which were obvious borrowing from armenian,as in due his course had been indicated by basque academician Bernard Estorence Lasa. In 1928 a well-known german philologist Joseph Karst finally has published the results of his own studies, under headline "Alarodians and protobasques".The Book were issued in Vein on french , and has caused the enourmous resonance in scientific world.In the given work Karst has presented more than 300 basque-armenian lexical similiarites and in greater amount coinciding elements of phonetics and grammaticses, including systems of declension, conjugations and others.On this base Kerst has come into conclusion that basque and armenian are two varieties of one linguistical type, which has named the alarodian. Aside of purely linguistical material Kerst also handled the results of other sciences, in particular the ethnography and the anthropologies. It follows to note specifically that fact that Kerst came to its scientific conclusions on base of own studies without having any information on previous works, about which was spoken above.Subsequently Kerst has written several books, where has continued the motivation of theory basque-armenian ethnoligical unity, bringing new datas and proofs. As would be expected, publication of the books has caused highly negative reaction of supporters of traditional approaches in linguistics.The Campaign against Kerst had been led by Maye, famous french linguist and one of the founders of modern linguistics. Maye has fallen into fury. The Reason clearest possible: Kerst ventured to revise linguistical card of Europe and lay a new way in the opinion of Maye's school , where everything was defined long ago.Armenian language is an IE language , but basque no, and here nothing did signify neither hundreds of coincidences, nor public legends, nor history data. After negative reviews of Maye ,Kerst remain in packeded insulation, and though he continued zealous work, his studies did not render the essential influence upon development of basqology and armenology.

[Artavazt]

Subsequently basqology and armenology have begun gradually leave each other. In spite of these circumstances, basque-armenian theory continue to remain attractive for many linguists,since, the enourmous system of basque-armenian coincidences, requires a corresponding to analysis and interpretation. In general,the problem of basque-armenian ethnologic kinship was developped within the framework of most different scientific theories. Kerst And Oshtir brought forth alarodian theory, spanish linguist Gisasola tries to prove the Indo_european origin of basque language...All these attempts, indeed, caused mistrust to basque-armenian problem.In such conditions appeared the need to separate it from other linguistical theories and consider as independent scientific problem with conditional name "Problem basque-armenian ethnologic kinship".However for purely scientific decision ,it was necessary first of all to restore the whole picture of development of theory basque-armenian ethnologic unity and value accumulateded actual material by the modern science criteria.Besides, was necessary to create corresponding to scientifically-organizing structure and adjust the cooperation with basque scientists. For this purpose in 1993 under Armenian centre of Yerevan State university there was founded armeno-basque international scientific journal "Araks",in editorial staff which, entered many known armenologists and basqologists from different countries of the world. In 1994,in the same centre was opened a scientific subject "armeno-basque relationses" , which is until now financed by the government of Republic an Armenia.Since 1995 the journal "Araks" begins to get state dotations on two numbers per annum. Thereby, armeno-basque theory became component part scientific politicians of armenian government,which, certainly, has influenced positively upon international authority of the journal and promote the cooperation with other countries. Follows specifically to emphasize that our scientific programs are realized in close contact with corresponding to organizations of The Land of Basques,both in Spains, and in Frances.Scientist of different countries willingly co-operate with journal, and the scientific periodic publishings from the Land of Basques are open for armenian researchers, and we already have begun publication of big series the materials from the journal "Fontes Lingue Veskonum".At this period there were published six articles on spanish language.And now It's planned to publicate series in Frances, in basqological yearbook "Lapurdum". .......... Here we can stop on the main trends of development of the problem, having presented only highly small part of got results. 1.In 1998, in journal Araks were published the code of basque-armenian lexical coincidences, including more than 600 words, nearly identical in both languages.Recently on the order of basque publishers "Chalaparta" was formed a most full list of basque-armenian parallels,the number which reachs to thousand vocabulary units, including many formants of grammatics. Presence of the language analogies allows us to reach certained level of rapport: essentially, possible form polysyllabic offers, which will basically comprehensible for basques and armenians.Such amount of coincidences in both languages can't be considered as accidental,at all,the possibility of borrowings excluded because of enourmous distance, separating two folks. It's also curiously enough, that in most cases one or another word coincided in basque and armenian , no correspondences to other languages. Such as:
BS.'elki'(exit)-ARM.'elk'(exit)
BS.'ete'(if)-ARM.'ete'(if)
BS.'jaraunsi'(to inherit)-ARM 'jarangel'(to inherit)
BS.'muruncha'(snarl)-ARM.'merenchots'(snarl)
BS.'murtsa'(fist)-ARM.'murts'(fist)
BS.'orma'(wall)-ARM.'vorm'(wall)
BS.'tegi'(place)-ARM.'tegh'(place)
BS.'toil'(weak)-ARM.'tuil'(weak)
BS.'laino'(size,breadth)-ARM.'lain'(broad)
BS.'irurden'(third)-ARM.'erordn'(third)
BS.'astadun'(weighty)-ARM.'hastatun'(strong, steadfast)
BS.'astatu'(to prove)-ARM.'hastatel'(to prove) .....................
2.In Armenian Highland and in Baskonia there are enourmous amount of toponimic elements,which sometimes get to the level of simple repetition,
such as
Ashtarak(a town in Armenia)-Astarak(a settlement in south of France)
Goris (a city in southeast Armenia) - Goris (a settlement in Baskonia)
Deba (a river in north Armenia) - Deba (a name of a river in Baskonia)
Shubria (The ancient name to provinces Sasun) - Shuberoa (tha name to basque province in France)
Araks(a famous river in Armenia) - Arakses(a famous river in Baskonia)
Aran (the name of terrain in Armenia) - Aran (Wide-spread toponim in Baskonia) Karkar (the name of terrain in West Armenia) - Karkar (famous toponim in Baskonia)

3. As it was already noted above, in basque national tradition the prehomeland of basques was considered Armenia,besides, different sources notes that strangers from Armenia known the secret of processing the metal,in particular honeys and ferric.For the matter of that highly notable self-designation of basques 'euskaldun',which derives from the root of element 'eusk',in different dialects having different forms - eusk, usk, esku, asketic.The given root, as it was shown by us, etymologicaly is connected with armenian word 'voski' "gold",existing in dialects with different variants:iski,veske,aske,ioski.The armenian word voski "gold" has alterred in proper name 'Voskan',which verbatim means "having gold" and reminds the ethnic name of basques 'baskon',and in latin sources fixed as 'vaskon'.it's curiously enough ,that at the period of Urartian kindoms south-east seaside of the lake Van, which was the crib of armenian folk,had the name 'Khubushkia' which means "valley of usks" that is to say "golden valley ".And highly notable that in medieval armenian sources urartian Khubushkia, "valley of usks" or " golden valley",already had other name, as follows 'Hayots dzor' that means "valley of armenians" or "armenian valley". On the other hand, mountains Ushkiani are mentionned in urartian inscriptions on a seaside of lake Urmia. At the period of Strabon Ushkiani mountains already were identified as 'Armenian mountains', but in armenian sources they are known as 'Voskean' -"golden".All these facts allows us to draw a conclusion that for our ancestors the word "gold-miner" and "armenian" were synonyms, which is also evidenced by basque national legends.

[Artavazt]

The Race of the Hurrians
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t224751/



Yes they were.

Before the rise of our Indo-European ancestors various pre-IE peoples inhabited Europe and Western Asia. The Finno-Ugrics inhabited the North as they do today. Various peoples identified by "culture" names such as Yamna culture, Vincha culture, Lengyel culture etc. inhabited the rest of North and Central Europe.
From the Iberian peninsula in the West all the way from Southern Europe to Anatolia and Caucasus various peoples showed both racial and cultural continuity. Hurrians and the last known Hurrian speakers, the Urartians were among those. At one point Hurrians were ruled by an Indo-European elite known as the Mittani. Along with Basques, Iberians, Minoans, Pelasgians, Hattis, Etruscans etc. Only the Basques, Finno-Ugrics and the non-IE peoples of Caucasus survive from those, the rest were assimilated by IE's.

[Artaxat]

Why do you support the spreading of unscholalry bullshits?



By the way the Ararat Brandy was very delicious with my lunch today. Say thanks that I support the economy of Armenia. :D

http://robertburnswines.com/sitewp/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ARA0010203.jpg

The thread is not only about scholarly debate, but about the Armenians (inclusive scholarly and non scholar discussions/pictographic/video material)

I am glad you enjoyed the cognac, it is my favorite as well. Thank your for supporting Armenia's economy, are you interested in hotel deals and tour packages?

[Artaxat]

Of course, this time Armenia have the greatest expansion however this "empire" was so instabile, caducous and at least it became an roman client-kingdom.

Furthermore the map is not so precise coz f.E. 68. B.C. Lucullus' army penetrated in Armenia and the map show all those regions owned by Tigranes the Great till 66 B.C.


I think the so long armenian history and the very old age of armenian people speak for itself and armenians don't need imprecise maps like this. This maps is so similar to the maps of other people's nationalist whos want show greater and greater territory owned by own people however the tansient conquest do not correlate with culture or staying power of a people. F.E. the huns proven conquered half Europe long time ago and where are the huns now???



Dearest, I re-post from page 2


I see, you want to include the http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Maps_of_the_Armenian_Empire_of_Tigranes.gif

The greatest extents of the Armenian Empire reach during 331 BC–428 AD
A period of 759 years...
It's peak occuring during Artaxiad Dynasty 190 BC-1 AD ...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Artaxiad.svg

Keep in mind on the brown part of the map is labelled Greater Armenia, the rest of the parts being lesser Armenia or vassal territories which were under Armenian rule, but not necessarily inhabited by Armenians, and even if inhabited does not necessarily mean mixing of populations.

In page one I also posted three different maps inclusive the modern boundaires. Nevertheless, the Armenian empire map is very accurate and has been compiled bymodern cartographers.

[Nairi]

Hans-Jochen Schmidt:
Ararat was the first that struck me in Armenia

On New Year's Eve, German ambassador in Yerevan, Hans-Jochen Schmidt shared his impressions of Armenia.

“The first thing that struck me in Armenia was Ararat. In good weather, it offers a marvelous view, so close and yet so far.

The most interesting thing is your changing landscape, when I was traveling… Khor Virap, Sanahin, Haghpat, Akhtala, Gyumri… every time my visitors say that they have a totally different landscape, with climate and vegetation always changing…”

The Ambassador confessed to having his favorite locations in Armenia - Byurakan, where he spends summer days and Lake Sevan, where he goes for a swim even in chilly weather.

“Armenia is a small country, but a very varied one. Like a never-ending story, it never fails to surprise you with new impressions,” the ambassador says.

According to the ambassador, Armenia is an outstanding country in terms of hospitality. “And you have a huge amount appetizers, it's unbelievable that you have fish and meat together. And summer outings are simply fantastic.”

The ambassador went on to tell of European traditions for New Year celebrations. “In Germany we have a family-oriented Christmas; on a New Year our friends and colleagues usually gather for a small party.”

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/374960_316520358368672_153608054659904_1068799_313 776306_n.jpg

[Nairi]

By the way the Ararat Brandy was very delicious with my lunch today. Say thanks that I support the economy of Armenia. :D

http://robertburnswines.com/sitewp/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ARA0010203.jpg


Ararat is a winner of many times but you have to try also Nairi...

In the framework of Moscow-hosted XV International professional wines and spirits contest 20 years aged cognac Nairi of Yerevan Ararat Factory was awarded a gold medal and a Grand Prix. Over 115 samples of alcoholic beverages from 15 producing countries including Portugal, Spain, Hungary, Russia, USA, Ukraine, France and Chile participated in the event organized under the auspices of International Organization of Vine and Wine.

It is the second medal awarded to cognac Nairi for 2011, the first one awarded at Competition of wine and alcoholic drinks in Moldova, February 12-13.

Ararat brand was also awarded a special prize in the nomination of “Best brand of the year” at XV International professional wines and spirits contest.

http://www.evinoteca.eu/produse-imagini-b/ararat-nairi-20y-05-l.jpg

[Nairi]

I am making this post for a very nice Australian guy with username "Turkey" (bird)...

Last year's post:

Yesterday a group of bloggers in Armenia arranged a get-together in main Yerevan square, next to the main Christmas tree. They took some champagne, sweets, etc. and spent a great time celebrating New Year and Christmas!

One of pictures is funny, pay attention to the wedding ring on Santa Claus’s finger ;-) ) Sometimes Santa Claus also needs a glass of vodka-tutovka to cheer up I guess ;-) ))

Tutovka is a special vodka from Artsakh (better known with its Turkish name Nagorno Karabakh)

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/e8439fc5b9cf640ba61041843e4f72882e466d77311990-1.jpg

[Armenian Bishop]

Ararat is a winner of many times but you have to try also Nairi...

In the framework of Moscow-hosted XV International professional wines and spirits contest 20 years aged cognac Nairi of Yerevan Ararat Factory was awarded a gold medal and a Grand Prix. Over 115 samples of alcoholic beverages from 15 producing countries including Portugal, Spain, Hungary, Russia, USA, Ukraine, France and Chile participated in the event organized under the auspices of International Organization of Vine and Wine.

It is the second medal awarded to cognac Nairi for 2011, the first one awarded at Competition of wine and alcoholic drinks in Moldova, February 12-13.

Ararat brand was also awarded a special prize in the nomination of “Best brand of the year” at XV International professional wines and spirits contest.

http://www.evinoteca.eu/produse-imagini-b/ararat-nairi-20y-05-l.jpg

Yes, definitely, I've never enjoyed better brandy than Nairi! In the first place, its aged for 20 years.

Nairi is the best! Congratulations, Nairi, you have chosen your name wisely.

I first tried the Nairi Armenian Brandy (Cognac) about 10 years ago. Maybe, before that, because my distant relatives in Armenia gave me a generous serving of some fantastic Armenian Cognac, when my mother and I visited Armenia, in 1989.

I still keep an extra bottle of Nairi, in storage.

[Nairi]

Happy New Year to everyone who is reading this thread!

A very short video from Armenian blogger...

Yerevan,Armenia,1-st of January, 1 am, Armenian Church


otQqoFTJNZU