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Mercury
01-22-2012, 07:04 PM
http://amren.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Slider-Image.jpg



They are the glue that still holds the country together.

There are Irish-Americans, Scots-Americans, and Scotch-Irish-Americans. There are Polish-Americans, German-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Chinese-Americans, and a host of other hyphenated citizens. Why are there no English-Americans?

England was the cultural mother of the United States, and Englishness is its default culture. Colonists do not come to assimilate into an existing culture but to transplant their own. The English who came to America in the 17th century were intent on creating a world in their own cultural image, though with certain variations, such as different religious regimens.

The English were also the numerically dominant pioneers from the Jamestown settlement of 1607 until the Revolution. At the time of the first US census in 1790, English-descended settlers accounted for 60 per cent of the white population, and the majority of the other whites were from Scotland, Ireland, and Wales. The total population was 3,929,214, of which 3,172,006 were white and 757,208, or 19 percent, were black.

It is possible that English ancestry was downplayed in the 1790 census and for much of the 19th century because of the anti-British feeling caused by the American Revolution and various disputes afterwards such as the War of 1812. If so, the under-recording of English ancestry would have continued though succeeding generations. Whatever figures are correct, it is certain that by 1790 English was the dominant language and the template for American society had been cut.

Most of the colonists considered themselves English. Even the rebels justified rebellion on the ground that they were defending true English liberty that had been usurped by the king. The Declaration of Independence is a catalogue of breaches of what the colonials considered to be their rights as Englishmen.


Edmund Burke recognized the colonists’ demands as English demands.
http://amren.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Constitutional-Convention.jpg

Those in Britain who were sympathetic to the Americans’ cause had no doubt that the 13 colonies were English creations in spirit as well as blood. In 1775 in the House of Commons, Edmund Burke urged the British government to accept the colonists’ demands because they were based on Englishness:

. . . the people of the colonies are descendants of Englishmen . . . . They are therefore not only devoted to liberty, but to liberty according to English ideas and on English principles. The people are Protestants . . . a persuasion not only favourable to liberty, but built upon it . . . . My hold of the colonies is in the close affection which grows from common names, from kindred blood, from similar privileges, and equal protection. These are ties which, though light as air, are as strong as links of iron. . . . As long as you have the wisdom to keep the sovereign authority of this country as the sanctuary of liberty, the sacred temple consecrated to our common faith, wherever the chosen race and sons of England worship freedom, they will turn their faces towards you.



...



It is worth noting that the English are not the only missing hyphenated Americans. There are no Canadian-, Australian-, or New Zealand-Americans. This is probably because they are from societies that derive from England, too; there is very little besides accent to distinguish them from the mainstream, and even that is gone in a generation. (In Maine, there are French Canadians with a distinct identity that has been held together by language.)

This raises the question of why the non-English Britons—most notably the Scots and the Irish—have self-consciously maintained their hyphenated status. It is probably because they felt themselves to be peoples who were subject to England and who bore a grudge against England. It is worth adding that Americans who call themselves Scots-American or Irish-American today are indistinguishable from American-Americans in everything except for a sentimental attachment to their Celtic ancestry and a residual polishing of an historical victimhood.

The English are a significant demographic group to this day. The 1980 census showed that 26.34 percent of the white American population reported English ancestry (49,598,035). German heritage was just behind at 26.14 percent, followed by Irish (21.33 percent), French (6.85 percent), Italian (6.47 percent), and Scottish (4.34 percent). How many readers would have known that French heritage was more common than Italian or Scottish?

The census no longer collects official information on the European ancestry of whites. It is too busy classifying Hispanics as Nicaraguans, Dominicans, Colombians, etc. However, the Census Bureau does conduct something called a Community Survey, that is supposed to gather this information, and for 2008 we find something very surprising: The number of Americans claiming English heritage (9.0 percent of the total population) has fallen well behind those claiming to be German (16.5 percent) and Irish (11.9 percent).

What is going on? Millions of English-descended people cannot have suddenly vanished. Nor have there been millions of German and Irish immigrants in the last 30 years. There are several possible explanations. First, because they are of the founding culture, those with English ancestry simply think of themselves as Americans. And, indeed, according to the 2008 Community Survey, we find that 5.9 percent of the population simply considered itself “American,” a category that was not tabulated in the 1980 census. Many of those “Americans” are probably of English heritage.


Full article here for all those interested: http://amren.com/features/2012/01/where-are-the-english-americans/

Sikeliot
01-22-2012, 07:06 PM
Those who just report "American" are likely the ones of English ancestry. Or people of English ancestry have been here so long that when other more recent groups like German or Italian showed up, people will identify more with that group.

Northern_Sun
01-22-2012, 07:09 PM
Very interesting... I have not thought about that. Do you have an answer?

Aces High
01-22-2012, 07:12 PM
The founding fathers.......look at those surnames.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

If it were any other racial group you would never hear the last of it......seems like we are a "stay in the background" sort of people.

At least the US could have an English history month seeing as they have a black history month.

Sikeliot
01-22-2012, 07:13 PM
I have a friend who always thought he was all Irish but it turns out one side of his family (1/4 of his ancestry) was derived from colonial English settlers to this region.

Germanicus
01-22-2012, 07:14 PM
The founding fathers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

If it were any other racial group you would never hear the last of it......seems like we are a "stay in the background" sort of people.

At least the US could have an English history month seeing as they have a black history month.

Listen Aces High... a lot of members like interesting threads to mull over and add to, all you are doing is trying to spoil everyones enjoyment1

Flintlocke
01-22-2012, 07:17 PM
I thought the most important identity whose zeitgeist was the basis of the constitution and the original values were people of Ulster Scots ancestry.

Mercury
01-22-2012, 07:19 PM
I thought the most important identity whose zeitgeist was the basis of the constitution and the original values were people of Ulster Scots ancestry.

Yes that did annoy me about this article. Credit needs to be given to the Scots-Irish that essentially founded the south.


Very interesting... I have not thought about that. Do you have an answer?

The Old Stock Americans simply call themselves Americans. I'm pretty sure most of English descent are mixed with other white ethnicities (due to being in America for so long) so there's no reason to call themselves 'English-Americans.'

Aces High
01-22-2012, 07:25 PM
I thought the most important identity whose zeitgeist was the basis of the constitution and the original values were people of Ulster Scots ancestry.

George Washington - English.
John Adams - English.
Benjamin Franklin - English.

:smilie_flagge3:

Logan
01-22-2012, 07:59 PM
American
http://www.sports-warehouse.net/ekmps/shops/inspirations36/images/5ft-x-3ft-red-ensign-colonial-british-navy-flag-590-p.gif

Australian
http://cache.websetters.com.au/images/947-150x800collectors-australian_national_colonial.gif

British Colonies not English.

Decent article. Reminds me of the Anglo-Saxon or Keltic question.

LightInDarkness
01-22-2012, 08:17 PM
At least the US could have an English history month seeing as they have a black history month.
That would never happen. The jigs would have a field day and scream "RAYSIISM"

Saruman
01-22-2012, 10:30 PM
Those who just report "American" are likely the ones of English ancestry. Or people of English ancestry have been here so long that when other more recent groups like German or Italian showed up, people will identify more with that group.

Yes and that is seen in US census, latest from 2000. I haven't seen such figures for 2010 census, it seems they might not even exist. Some people used surveys to get more recent ethnic composition.

Nabatea1
01-22-2012, 10:32 PM
English Americans are the people who identify as American, and this also true of Canada, they don't need to put a hyphen because they see themselves as the foundation of the legacy of those nations and have formed a new identity and took the name of American or Canadian as ethnic designations. Before the new arrivals from Europe and elsewhere these new identifies were formed and hence why there was no need to have a hyphen for them. In Canada it was somewhat different due to the French presence in Eastern Canada, where English-Canadian was used but it also meant a person of Protestant British Isle descent.

Joe McCarthy
01-22-2012, 10:50 PM
'English-American' is a phony term made up in this deracinated era of hyphenated Americanism and multiculturalism. Traditionally we have been Anglo-Saxons, have called ourselves such, and avoided use of 'English' as it involves a nationality we broke from. Assimilable groups merged into this Anglo-Saxon American identity and it even took on an anti-British tone during Manifest Destiny as it was seen as the goal of the Anglo-Saxon race to spread over the continent, even at the expense of Great Britain, during the Oregon boundary dispute.

There is of course such a thing as Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, African-Americans, Mexican-Americans, etc. That is to say that being half of one and six dozen of the other they're not fully American. An American is an Anglo-Saxon, and sees himself as such, even if he may have non-Anglo-Saxon ancestry. After all, the English themselves have non-Anglo-Saxon ancestry that's been assimilated into the English ethnogenesis.

Joe McCarthy
01-22-2012, 10:59 PM
Yes that did annoy me about this article. Credit needs to be given to the Scots-Irish that essentially founded the south.


Jamestown was founded by people from England, not Ulster, and the so-called 'Scots-Irish' are essentially Englishmen anyway.

Osweo
01-23-2012, 12:53 AM
Yeah, if Americans are 'Scotch Irish', then 'Scotch Irish' are Borders Englishmen anyway.

I do believe the Scotch Irish thing is a little overstated for the South too, being preferred for somewhat exoticist reasons.

Peyrol
01-23-2012, 01:01 AM
Those who just report "American" are likely the ones of English ancestry. Or people of English ancestry have been here so long that when other more recent groups like German or Italian showed up, people will identify more with that group.

In red, majority of "americans"...yes, i think that they're mostly of english (or precisely, british) descent.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Most_common_ancestries_in_the_United_States.svg/300px-Most_common_ancestries_in_the_United_States.svg.pn g

PS: what state is the last of the reds that borders with Texas and Louisiana?

Electronic God-Man
01-23-2012, 01:09 AM
"Americans" are Anglo-Americans. I consider the "Scots-Irish" Americans to also be Anglo-Americans.

We're definitely still here. I don't want to get into the whole big thing again, but there are other threads on The Apricity that address this issue in some detail. Search for "Old Stock American" and "What is an American?"

Osweo
01-23-2012, 01:13 AM
In red, majority of "americans"...yes, i think that they're mostly of english (or precisely, british) descent.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Most_common_ancestries_in_the_United_States.svg/300px-Most_common_ancestries_in_the_United_States.svg.pn g

PS: what state is the last of the reds that borders with Texas and Louisiana?

Arkansas. There are mountains there with my surname, so yeah, pretty British. :cool:

Peyrol
01-23-2012, 01:24 AM
Arkansas. There are mountains there with my surname, so yeah, pretty British. :cool:

My surname, instead, is very widespread in New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island and Connecticut.
Not surprising :laugh:

Argyll
01-23-2012, 01:25 AM
Right here :wave: Well, at least partly.

Scrapple
01-23-2012, 01:28 AM
Yeah, if Americans are 'Scotch Irish', then 'Scotch Irish' are Borders Englishmen anyway.

I do believe the Scotch Irish thing is a little overstated for the South too, being preferred for somewhat exoticist reasons.

Yeah it is overstated. For the coastal South it was generally English with various indentured servents (English, Scot, Irish). There was a highlander Scot contingent that settled in North Carolina. Then the Scots-Irish came mainly into Pennsylvania and mixed with the Germans, English and others about the same time. That group then went west and South following the Appalachians south. Then there was a mixing of the Coastal group with the Appalachian group. So the South is a mix of English, Scots-Irish and German (of course some French and Irish and others are also included).

Argyll
01-23-2012, 01:32 AM
Yeah it is overstated. For the coastal South it was generally English with various indentured servents (English, Scot, Irish). Then the Scots-Irish came mainly into Philadelphia and went West the South into the Appalachian Mtns. The Germans also followed this path along with English Settlers at about the same time. There was a mixing of the Coastal group with the Appalachian group. So the South is a mix of English, Scots-Irish and German. Of course some French and Irish and others are also included.

It depends on where you're from. In the state that I currently live in, there are mostly Scottish and English decendents. A good number of German ones too. But in Eastern Kentucky, it's extremely Scots and Scots-Irish. I was playing some music (Celtic) once in the car on the way to school and my mother said that it reminded her of Kentucky's bluegrass muisc. Also in Eastern Kentucky, we have the typical Scots-Irish-Appalachian dialect. From my place in where I live, Knott County, there were almost no German names. Forget non British names entirely in most of it.

Scrapple
01-23-2012, 01:38 AM
It depends on where you're from. In the state that I currently live in, there are mostly Scottish and English decendents. A good number of German ones too. But in Eastern Kentucky, it's extremely Scots and Scots-Irish. I was playing some music (Celtic) once in the car on the way to school and my mother said that it reminded her of Kentucky's bluegrass muisc. Also in Eastern Kentucky, we have the typical Scots-Irish-Appalachian dialect. From my place in where I live, Knott County, there were almost no German names. Forget non British names entirely in most of it.

Of course it is more complicated that what I can put in a forum post. But many German families Anglicised their names so you can't make assumptions based upon current surnames.

Read this book it is very good and explains a lot: http://www.amazon.com/Albions-Seed-British-Folkways-Cultural/dp/0195069056

Osweo
01-23-2012, 01:40 AM
It depends on where you're from. In the state that I currently live in, there are mostly Scottish and English decendents. A good number of German ones too. But in Eastern Kentucky, it's extremely Scots and Scots-Irish.

I wonder, could you produce for us some lists of surnames? Like class registers, or local amateur sports teams? We could then go some way to actually quantify what till now are just subjective impressions.

Odoacer
01-23-2012, 06:30 AM
It depends on where you're from. In the state that I currently live in, there are mostly Scottish and English decendents. A good number of German ones too. But in Eastern Kentucky, it's extremely Scots and Scots-Irish. I was playing some music (Celtic) once in the car on the way to school and my mother said that it reminded her of Kentucky's bluegrass muisc. Also in Eastern Kentucky, we have the typical Scots-Irish-Appalachian dialect. From my place in where I live, Knott County, there were almost no German names. Forget non British names entirely in most of it.

Bluegrass music is as English as it is Celtic. A lot of music marketed as "Celtic" in the U.S. has a lot of English influence, too.

Argyll
01-23-2012, 11:51 AM
Bluegrass music is as English as it is Celtic. A lot of music marketed as "Celtic" in the U.S. has a lot of English influence, too.

I heard some similarities myself with it's Celtic roots when I listened to 'Galway Girl'. A lot of people there do family history (it's an extremely tight knit community) and many people state Irish ancestry. Maybe these people, who did have seemingly English sounding surnames, had ancestors that moved to Ireland an then came to the US? It seems to to make a lot of sense. People here also claim English and Scottish ancestry, but not as nearly as much as Irish. So that's my guess.

@Os- Alas, I can't really access any information based, in depth, on Knott County because I don't live there any more. Here are some general links though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knott_County,_Kentucky

Heh, Kentucky even has 'Magoffin County'. We have a small Welsh portion as well. Two Welsh names that I know that are in Knott County are Owens and Jones.

Allenson
01-23-2012, 04:04 PM
In red, majority of "americans"...yes, i think that they're mostly of english (or precisely, british) descent.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Most_common_ancestries_in_the_United_States.svg/300px-Most_common_ancestries_in_the_United_States.svg.pn g

PS: what state is the last of the reds that borders with Texas and Louisiana?

And the purple ones are those that report a majority with English ancestry--Utah, Maine and good ol' Vermont. ;) New Hampshire's not far behind but it has been heavily populated by Boston-Irish people over the past 30 years or so.

Peyrol
01-23-2012, 04:16 PM
And the purple ones are those that report a majority with English ancestry--Utah, Maine and good ol' Vermont. ;) New Hampshire's not far behind but it has been heavily populated by Boston-Irish people over the past 30 years or so.

Is interesting see that most of New England has lost the traditional WASP majority. It isn't surprising for New York (because was for centuries the gate of the immigration from Europe), but seeing the New Jersey and Rhode Island with "italian" majority sounds strange.

Barreldriver
01-23-2012, 04:31 PM
We're definitely still here. I don't want to get into the whole big thing again, but there are other threads on The Apricity that address this issue in some detail. Search for "Old Stock American" and "What is an American?"

Aye, and I've posted a number of threads with the Census data from 1980 (when it was still very common to identify as an English American in the areas where Anglos dominated namely the Upper South and parts of New England) to 2010 (where identifying as "American" became more common and seems to be comprised of at least in part those who once identified as English American).

With the 1980 figures for the Mid-Atlantic, New England, and Upper South: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38333

I posted the 2010 figures (for Tennessee only though) at Skadi, it was mentioned that perhaps the decrease in Anglo-American numbers is a bureaucratically engineered phenomenon rather than an actual decrease in numbers.

As for where are the English-Americans, one be right here. :D

Jack B
01-23-2012, 04:56 PM
It seems to have a correlation with the number of people claiming Cherokee princesses as ancestors and the general "white American" way of identifying yourself, it kinda lends itself to creative ways of reviewing the family tree.

I don't mean to sound patronising or anything to our American members, but I've actually had conversations with a few (in real life) that have gone something like "Uh there was one guy with an English name, but it was probably originally a Gaelic Irish name translated to English because there were a lot of Irish around at that time (not in his area), and I think we have some Italian in there because my mothers side can tan sometimes"

That's a rough summary of a meeting I had with a guy who actually had documents telling him (which I seen) that he had some distant relatives from England, yet in the face of this evidence he was more convinced he had Irish and Italian heritage based on nothing more than family myths and a grandmother with a bit of a tan.

rhiannon
01-23-2012, 05:06 PM
Aye, and I've posted a number of threads with the Census data from 1980 (when it was still very common to identify as an English American in the areas where Anglos dominated namely the Upper South and parts of New England) to 2010 (where identifying as "American" became more common and seems to be comprised of at least in part those who once identified as English American).

With the 1980 figures for the Mid-Atlantic, New England, and Upper South: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38333

I posted the 2010 figures (for Tennessee only though) at Skadi, it was mentioned that perhaps the decrease in Anglo-American numbers is a bureaucratically engineered phenomenon rather than an actual decrease in numbers.

As for where are the English-Americans, one be right here. :D

*raises hand*
Fellow Old Stock Anglo/Scotch-Irish/German (among others) American here. Family originated in Maine, Eastern Canada, The Midwest, and I think, Tennessee (just found this out) prior to them all converging in California (except the Canadian which came later) way back in the 1800s.

Odoacer
01-23-2012, 05:13 PM
It seems to have a correlation with the number of people claiming Cherokee princesses as ancestors and the general "white American" way of identifying yourself, it kinda lends itself to creative ways of reviewing the family tree.

I don't mean to sound patronising or anything to our American members, but I've actually had conversations with a few (in real life) that have gone something like "Uh there was one guy with an English name, but it was probably originally a Gaelic Irish name translated to English because there were a lot of Irish around at that time (not in his area), and I think we have some Italian in there because my mothers side can tan sometimes"

That's a rough summary of a meeting I had with a guy who actually had documents telling him (which I seen) that he had some distant relatives from England, yet in the face of this evidence he was more convinced he had Irish and Italian heritage based on nothing more than family myths and a grandmother with a bit of a tan.

Yes, too common. My grandmother was only 1/4 Irish by ancestry, for example, but she projected herself & was generally regarded as basically Irish in origin - this despite the fact that her father was full Scottish & her mother was half-Irish, half-English.

Bardamu
01-23-2012, 05:21 PM
I thought the most important identity whose zeitgeist was the basis of the constitution and the original values were people of Ulster Scots ancestry.

Anyone interested in the founding stock of the USA needs to read Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways In America by David Hackett Fischer.

Bardamu
01-23-2012, 05:24 PM
Yes that did annoy me about this article. Credit needs to be given to the Scots-Irish that essentially founded the south.



The Old Stock Americans simply call themselves Americans. I'm pretty sure most of English descent are mixed with other white ethnicities (due to being in America for so long) so there's no reason to call themselves 'English-Americans.'

The Scots-Irish founded Appalachia. Tidewater and the Deep South were founded by the English. The Deep South by way of English from Barbados.

Allenson
01-23-2012, 05:59 PM
Is interesting see that most of New England has lost the traditional WASP majority. It isn't surprising for New York (because was for centuries the gate of the immigration from Europe), but seeing the New Jersey and Rhode Island with "italian" majority sounds strange.

Yes, the Italians from New York and northern New Jersey have made sizable inroads into southern New England (Connecticut, Rhode Island and parts of Massachusetts).

A more accurate way to display ethnicity patterns here might be to look by counties instead of entire states.

Like this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rrPAIfT_IMk/Ta6YIL_qGCI/AAAAAAAAD3k/OTBjfCysOwE/s1600/800px-Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg.png

Barreldriver
01-23-2012, 07:13 PM
The Scots-Irish founded Appalachia. Tidewater and the Deep South were founded by the English. The Deep South by way of English from Barbados.

As an Appalachian Tennessean I feel obliged to point out that the Scots-Irish settlement in Appalachia is not universal for the region, in the parts of the range that enter into Middle Tennessee via the Cumberland Plateau you will see a plethora of English families, my own included. The Englishness of Appalachia is often disregarded, and was once recognized by others in the past as is evident in such writs as "Tennessee is not a Hooch Paradise" to be found in the New York Times archive where the issues between New England and Upland Tennesseans are mentioned regarding their shared English ancestry along with differences in world outlook and standoffish nature between the two subgroups.

Barreldriver
01-23-2012, 07:16 PM
A more accurate way to display ethnicity patterns here might be to look by counties instead of entire states.


This is something that I have tried to stress in the past with my bringing up my home county, it being quite English in stock and equally Appalachian. One must pay special attention to rural counties where the settling stock was relatively homogenous with few outsiders, this in turn playing a role in local culture. An example being back home we the folks identify with County before town because of the nature of our settlement and commonalities that span towns within the counties, while from what I've seen in Ohio people are more focused on "hometown" as opposed to "home county".

Thraex
01-23-2012, 07:22 PM
America won't soon be English anymore since us Slavs will Slavicise the country with the help of Russians. :evil

On a serious note though, English Americans are actually a minority. It's the German Americans who hold this country together.

Barreldriver
01-23-2012, 07:46 PM
On a serious note though, English Americans are actually a minority. It's the German Americans who hold this country together.

NAAAP. :cool:

National Association for the Advancement of Anglo People. :D

Whar's me check? :D

Osweo
01-23-2012, 08:50 PM
Bluegrass music is as English as it is Celtic. A lot of music marketed as "Celtic" in the U.S. has a lot of English influence, too.
Aye, sad and stupid thing is, though, that most people don't even have a clue that there's such a thing as English music. The 'Irish' music most people are familiar with - the ballads and Wild Rover type ones - is mostly a branch of the English tradition (with REAL Gaelic music being almost as unknown to most people). :tsk:

foreverblue
01-23-2012, 10:39 PM
The Scots-Irish founded Appalachia. Tidewater and the Deep South were founded by the English. The Deep South by way of English from Barbados.

french in louisiana?
spanish in florida?

Osweo
01-23-2012, 11:00 PM
french in louisiana?
spanish in florida?

relevance to the thread?

Bardamu
01-23-2012, 11:08 PM
french in louisiana?
spanish in florida?


And Germans in Pennsylvania. There were French Huguenots as well in the founding of the Deep South and Tidewater.

Peyrol
01-24-2012, 12:29 AM
Yes, the Italians from New York and northern New Jersey have made sizable inroads into southern New England (Connecticut, Rhode Island and parts of Massachusetts).

A more accurate way to display ethnicity patterns here might be to look by counties instead of entire states.

Like this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rrPAIfT_IMk/Ta6YIL_qGCI/AAAAAAAAD3k/OTBjfCysOwE/s1600/800px-Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg.png

So, according to this census map, italian majority in New York state is due mostly from NYC and metropolitan area than the rest of the state.

The Gorvernor of New York is italian-american, if i remember well.


BTW, i dont know that Oklahoma has too many natives. :confused:

foreverblue
01-24-2012, 12:39 AM
relevance to the thread?

well the poster i quoted said the british basically founded the deep south.
i guess the french and spanish contributions were conveniently forgotten about?

elone
01-24-2012, 12:41 AM
i think the majority of americans have atleast some english descent, going back to colonial times, and it is a fair statement to say that american culture is for the most part an extension of english culture (though not without its own american made subcultures and such that have influenced it greatly as well). i think the fact that its so far back is part of the reason why they don't consider mentioning it. we all knows its there, but most white americans are also mixed, in many cases heavily so, with other european ethnicities. particularly irish and german and italian. the majority of these people came to america much more recently, something like a 4th or all of the 20 million or so immigrants into this country from 1820-1920 were irish. so it is much more common for them to claim their irish roots or their german or italian roots over their english ones, because it is more recent and in plays into more of their identity.

thats not including all the other various ethnicities that make up white americans, like the french or russian or scottish etc. most americans are mutts.

foreverblue
01-24-2012, 12:41 AM
And Germans in Pennsylvania. There were French Huguenots as well in the founding of the Deep South and Tidewater.

but did the germans have an actual colony in pensylvania?

the french and spanish had "official" colonies in the deep south, probably at the same time or before the british

Óttar
01-24-2012, 12:42 AM
Right here.

Peyrol
01-24-2012, 12:45 AM
but did the germans have an actual colony in pensylvania?

the french and spanish had "official" colonies in the deep south, probably at the same time or before the british

Cajun French, for example, is still spoken in Louisiana, while some texan families, called tejanos, could trace their roots to the spanish (not mexican) colonists during the Vicereame de Nueva España.

foreverblue
01-24-2012, 12:47 AM
Cajun French, for example, is still spoken in Louisiana, while some texan families, called tejanos, could trace their roots to the spanish (not mexican) colonists during the Vicereame de Nueva España.


i know

but i must admit that the spanish colonization of florida wasn't really extensive.

LightInDarkness
01-24-2012, 12:48 AM
So, according to this census map, italian majority in New York state is due mostly from NYC and metropolitan area than the rest of the state.

The Gorvernor of New York is italian-american, if i remember well.


BTW, i dont know that Oklahoma has too many natives. :confused:

Fuuck. Looks like German and Irish hold the vast majority. Oh well.

Scrapple
01-24-2012, 12:51 AM
So, according to this census map, italian majority in New York state is due mostly from NYC and metropolitan area than the rest of the state.

The Gorvernor of New York is italian-american, if i remember well.


BTW, i dont know that Oklahoma has too many natives. :confused:

Yes the NY Metro area has a large Italian-American population the rest of the state is mainly the usual British Isles mix.

Oklahoma was originally set aside as the Indian Territories and a lot of Indians were relocated there.

http://www.worldstatesmen.org/IndianTerr.gif

foreverblue
01-24-2012, 12:51 AM
Fuuck. Looks like German and Irish hold the vast majority. Oh well.

yep. the only places that have an english majority is canada,australia, new zealand and of course england

LightInDarkness
01-24-2012, 12:53 AM
At least Irish have majority! YAAYY IRISH PRIDE XD

foreverblue
01-24-2012, 12:54 AM
At least Irish have majority! YAAYY IRISH PRIDE XD


well the second biggest ethnic group in the states
probably a million in oz

LightInDarkness
01-24-2012, 12:56 AM
I was kinda expecting more Italians. Bummer.

Oreka Bailoak
01-24-2012, 12:57 AM
Self reported ancestries cannot be trusted.

Most Americans have something like 250-750 ancestors that came to America in the last 400 years. The average American is not going to do that amount of research on ancestry.com. These 500 or so places that an American's ancestry comes from is not going to be passed down the family by word of mouth.

I asked my grandparents what they were and based upon what they said I was supposedly 1/2 Irish&French, 1/4 English and 1/4 Scottish. After doing an enormous amount of research I found that they were totally wrong , in reality I'm about 25% German and 65% English (the actual percentages are more confusing and I have ancestry from quite a few countries in the low single digits, as I'm sure most Americans do too but have no idea about- and these are often the ancestries that they report as their "main ancestry").

English is under-reported in the north and German is under-reported in the south.

Ancestry is a lot more complicated than Grandma guessing what you are. Most people have no real idea of their actual ancestry until they do a huge amount of research.

foreverblue
01-24-2012, 12:57 AM
I was kinda expecting more Italians. Bummer.

1 million in australia, my beautiful wife is one of em :D

Peyrol
01-24-2012, 01:03 AM
1 million in australia, my beautiful wife is one of em :D

We are so many? :eek:

LightInDarkness
01-24-2012, 01:06 AM
1 million in australia, my beautiful wife is one of em :D

Northern Italian or Southern? Irish-Italian mixes are classically awesome!

Osweo
01-24-2012, 01:08 AM
Oklahoma was originally set aside as the Indian Territories and a lot of Indians were relocated there.

http://www.worldstatesmen.org/IndianTerr.gif
Gods, those Ottawa are a LONG way from home! :eek:

foreverblue
01-24-2012, 01:08 AM
Northern Italian or Southern? Irish-Italian mixes are classically awesome!


southern..but she's very fair..with a tint of olive.. she looks a bit like laura branigan [who's actually an italian/irish mix]

LightInDarkness
01-24-2012, 01:09 AM
^that olive is probably more of a tan. Does she loose the tint in the winter?

It would be fucking awesome to be German I must say. One of the most interesting of European groups.

foreverblue
01-24-2012, 01:16 AM
^that olive is probably more of a tan. Does she loose the tint in the winter?

It would be fucking awesome to be German I must say. One of the most interesting of European groups.


yeah she loses it a bit, she really amazed at how pale my skin is..

LightInDarkness
01-24-2012, 01:17 AM
yeah she loses it a bit, she really amazed at how pale my skin is..

Your irish, of course your pale.

Mercury
01-24-2012, 10:48 PM
well the poster i quoted said the british basically founded the deep south.
i guess the french and spanish contributions were conveniently forgotten about?

For the most part the Spanish didn't actually colonize the land. Otherwise there would still be presence in Florida. Only spanish-speaking people in Florida are recent immigrants like the Mexicans, Peurto Ricans, & Cubans. They had little if no contributions to the America's south. We owe more to Mexicans if anything.

French basically left the vast majority of Louisiana territory vacant. Thankfully the land was sold to us or we could've been looking at another Mexico-like situation.


Cajun French, for example, is still spoken in Louisiana, while some texan families, called tejanos, could trace their roots to the spanish (not mexican) colonists during the Vicereame de Nueva España.

That's interesting I never knew the Tejanos were of Iberian descent. I've always assumed they were just mixed hispanics. What do modern day Tejanos look like?

Great Dane
01-24-2012, 11:27 PM
Gods, those Ottawa are a LONG way from home! :eek:

That was the whole point of sending them to Oklahoma.

Osweo
01-24-2012, 11:41 PM
That was the whole point of sending them to Oklahoma.

Hmm? No, I read about them on wiki, actually. Seems they were allotted something not far from where they started out in Michigan, and then were sort of persuaded to buy land in Kansas. They then did a few deals with other tribes, and bought a chunk of Oklahoma in the end. Nasty business, as they don't seem to have realised the ecological differences... :ohwell:

Great Dane
01-25-2012, 12:02 AM
The point of sending them to Oklahoma was to get them far away from white settlers. Some of them got to Ok. by way of Kansas but the result was the same.

Peyrol
01-25-2012, 01:26 AM
That's interesting I never knew the Tejanos were of Iberian descent. I've always assumed they were just mixed hispanics. What do modern day Tejanos look like?


I think they looks like the white mexicans from Zacatecas, Cohauila and Nuevo Leon (most of the white mexican, about 40-45% of population of these states, are of castillian or basques heritage).

The same iberian heritage was/is from some old californian families, the hispanos.

But i think that today many "anglos" easly mistake them for light mexicans.

Mercury
01-28-2012, 11:30 PM
I think they looks like the white mexicans from Zacatecas, Cohauila and Nuevo Leon (most of the white mexican, about 40-45% of population of these states, are of castillian or basques heritage).

The same iberian heritage was/is from some old californian families, the hispanos.

But i think that today many "anglos" easly mistake them for light mexicans.

Some images of Tejano people of Texas:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Juan_seguin.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Eva_Longoria_Parker_crop.jpg/390px-Eva_Longoria_Parker_crop.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/46/Henry_B_Gonzalez.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Rodriguez%2C_Robert_(2007).jpg/399px-Rodriguez%2C_Robert_(2007).jpg

They do look white to me. Can I see some images of white Mexicans from Zacatecas, Cohauila & Nuevo Leon?

Peyrol
01-29-2012, 03:56 AM
....

They do look white to me. Can I see some images of white Mexicans from Zacatecas, Cohauila & Nuevo Leon?

Random people from internet.
They looks white or light castizos (75% euro 25% indios)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Santiago_Creel.jpg

http://www.fotobellezas.com/files/imagecache/display_size/files/fotos/paulina-rubio-01.jpg
http://www.eje-zeta.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/guillermo-del-toro.jpg

http://www.spiderwebx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Jessica_Burciaga-chicki-skin-hot_thumb_585x795.jpg

http://www.nndb.com/people/600/000045465/verastegui4.jpg

http://media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/images/Photo_gallery/112309014442Mexico-Perla-Beltran.jpg

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/757/399/ue_11_03_05_alvarez_original_display_image.jpg?129 8928539

http://thefilmstage.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/sincitypred.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Mexican_Girls.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Jos%C3%A9_Yves_Limantour_1910.jpg

http://www.topnews.in/files/felipe-calderon.jpg

http://www.esmas.com/galeria/fotos/2007/10/200751639421191620382.jpg

Siberyak
01-29-2012, 04:07 AM
White Mexicans are not common and I am here to tell everyone that.

Osweo
01-29-2012, 04:17 AM
White Mexicans are not common and I am here to tell everyone that.

Nice to have a purpose in life.

Raskolnikov
01-29-2012, 04:25 AM
If you're white and Mexican no one counts you as 'Mexican'.

Mercury
01-29-2012, 04:27 AM
http://media.ticketmaster.com/tm/en-us/dbimages/60860a

Famous American comedian, born in Mexico and has family in Mexico that goes back sometime.

Great Dane
01-29-2012, 05:00 AM
http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2012/01/romney1.jpg

I thought Mitt Romney was English-American, turns out he is Mexican. Or at least he wants to be.

T7tviEx6Uf8

Peyrol
01-29-2012, 01:47 PM
White Mexicans are not common and I am here to tell everyone that.

19% of Mexico population.

Dohtig
02-11-2012, 05:10 AM
I consider myself Anglo Saxon first, and American second. Like many have already stated, the term "English American" is not used very often because most just think of themselves as American. I believe there are just as many Anglo Saxons in America as there are Germans, if not more.

Most young people today want to be something exotic, and don't want to admit their from British stock. I just talked to a woman the other day, and she was telling me about her ancestry. She named off pretty much every country in north west Europe except England. The funny thing was her last name was Anglo Saxon.:eek:

RagnarLodbrok666
02-11-2012, 05:27 AM
I'm English by just about 1/4th percent. :D

Dohtig
02-11-2012, 05:31 AM
I'm English by just about 1/4th percent. :D

Can I ask why you make no mention of that in your ethnicity or ancestry? I only see Irish and German.;)

Thunor
02-11-2012, 05:33 AM
Well, as has been said before - the English-Americans are just "Americans". The usual word for them is WASPs. They're the founders of this country, so they don't really need to be "hyphenated Americans".

It reminds me of that line in The Good Shepherd. "What about your people, Mr. Wilson, what do you have?" "The United States of America. The rest of you are just visiting."

Of course, this has become a bad thing in our PC-obsessed times, and everyone wants to be "different" and "exotic" in some way. This is how you get whitebread Anglo-Americans going around and claiming to have a Cherokee ancestor and whatnot.


19% of Mexico population.
Most of those 19% are mixed-race castizos who are socially viewed as "white" at home. Doesn't make them "white" by my definition, because they're not. The actually white Euro-Mexicans are very few, probably under 5%.

Leadchucker
02-11-2012, 05:51 AM
I consider my self to be American as I was born here, however the flow of Welsh blood runs strong still in me. My grandparents on my mother's side were both from Wales and there was much culture and langauge brought with them. Being more recent in the family than the English side it's easier to identify with them than the English ancestor who came here in 1675, possibably as a exile from England to West Jersey which was a penal colony to some extent as was Oz.

The area around Philadelphia had a Welsh Tract just west of the city that was granted to them around 1700. There are many Welsh place names to this day in the area. Early on South Jersey across the river from Philly seemed to be more English with some Swedes thrown in for fun. The English stayed but most Swedes left becuase of the hordes of mosquitos that plagued their settlemets.

No one I know brags on their Englishness by using the shotgun name bit such as English -American. Other groups local to the area do such as the Iti's, the Irish, the Greeks ,sometimes the Germans but many of them in eastern PA are Amish or Mennonites and don't get involved in outside activity with "The English" as they still call them.

I do take part in few Welsh Society activities as time permits and fly the Welsh flag at least on St. David's Day.

Valhallan
02-15-2012, 05:46 PM
I think more Americans should show more pride to the nationality over the ethnicity. Even me being 100% swedish descent i still represent America first...


Well, as has been said before - the English-Americans are just "Americans". The usual word for them is WASPs. They're the founders of this country, so they don't really need to be "hyphenated Americans".

It reminds me of that line in The Good Shepherd. "What about your people, Mr. Wilson, what do you have?" "The United States of America. The rest of you are just visiting."

Of course, this has become a bad thing in our PC-obsessed times, and everyone wants to be "different" and "exotic" in some way. This is how you get whitebread Anglo-Americans going around and claiming to have a Cherokee ancestor and whatnot.


Most of those 19% are mixed-race castizos who are socially viewed as "white" at home. Doesn't make them "white" by my definition, because they're not. The actually white Euro-Mexicans are very few, probably under 5%.

Well technicaly....the actualy continent was discovered by Scandinavians first & America had many colonies. I'd say anyone who can trace their ancestry back to the colonial times regardless if they're English or not is an American. A newly English immigrant isn't more American than some German or Italian who's family has been in the nation for generations.

Argyll
02-15-2012, 08:53 PM
Well, as has been said before - the English-Americans are just "Americans". The usual word for them is WASPs. They're the founders of this country, so they don't really need to be "hyphenated Americans".

It reminds me of that line in The Good Shepherd. "What about your people, Mr. Wilson, what do you have?" "The United States of America. The rest of you are just visiting."

Of course, this has become a bad thing in our PC-obsessed times, and everyone wants to be "different" and "exotic" in some way. This is how you get whitebread Anglo-Americans going around and claiming to have a Cherokee ancestor and whatnot.


Most of those 19% are mixed-race castizos who are socially viewed as "white" at home. Doesn't make them "white" by my definition, because they're not. The actually white Euro-Mexicans are very few, probably under 5%.

That happens too much. And it's usually almost always in betwen 1/16 to a close number. They want enough to be slightly considered Amerindian, but not TOO much. :rolleyes:

But where I come from, it's slightly a bit of a different story, regarding who's English.

Where I'm from, everyone says we're: Irish (the number one), Scots-Irish, Scottish and English. And they are all protestants. My guess is that for the Irish, they were either protestants living in the Catholic dominated Ireland, or converted to a protestant faith, as there are absolutely NO Catholic churches anywhere in Knott County.

There's not really any negativity associated with being English there.


I think more Americans should show more pride to the nationality over the ethnicity. Even me being 100% swedish descent i still represent America first...



Well technicaly....the actualy continent was discovered by Scandinavians first & America had many colonies. I'd say anyone who can trace their ancestry back to the colonial times regardless if they're English or not is an American. A newly English immigrant isn't more American than some German or Italian who's family has been in the nation for generations.

There is some proof that the Americas may have been visited and settled by the megalithic builders because there have been stone circles found that resemble the ones found in the British Isles.

http://www.hunttreasure.net/americas-stonehenge-miami-stone-circle-hides-2000-year-old-secrets/1052

I think that's a different one, but I can't exactly remember the name of the other stone circle that was found.

Their Celtic descendents are also thought to have been in the Americas as well because there have been stones that have writing extremely similar Ogham writing.

http://www.viewzone.com/ogam.html

Great Dane
02-16-2012, 05:20 AM
A newly English immigrant isn't more American than some German or Italian who's family has been in the nation for generations.

The English immigrant would assimilate fairly easily and be less ethnic then a third generation Italian.

Odoacer
02-16-2012, 06:48 PM
The English immigrant would assimilate fairly easily and be less ethnic then a third generation Italian.

In general, yes, but a lot depends on how insulated the ancestors of the hypothetical third-generation Italian-American were. I'm technically a third-generation "Italian-American" myself, but the two previous generations mixed with other white Americans, so that the only notable evidence of Italian heritage is my surname (which most don't even recognize as Italian). I'm not culturally Italian beyond enjoying Italian food on occasion. So I think I'd be less ethnic than the hypothetical English immigrant, though the immigrant's kids might end up with a less foreign surname. ;)

Joe McCarthy
02-16-2012, 08:42 PM
I think more Americans should show more pride to the nationality over the ethnicity. Even me being 100% swedish descent i still represent America first...


Agreed, with a caveat: there should be no ethnic loyalty to one's ancestral homeland at all! We must be Americans first, yes, but second, third, and last as well. As Teddy Roosevelt said of immigrants in 1894: "We must Americanize in every way, in speech, in political ideas and principles, and in their way of looking at relations between church and state. We welcome the German and the Irishman who becomes an American. We have no use for the German or Irishman who remains such... He must revere only our flag, not only must it come first, but no other flag should even come second."


Well technicaly....the actualy continent was discovered by Scandinavians

The first to discover North America may very well have been an Irish monk, St. Brendan, centuries before the Vikings:

http://history.howstuffworks.com/north-american-history/irish-monk-america.htm

Great Dane
02-16-2012, 11:17 PM
In general, yes, but a lot depends on how insulated the ancestors of the hypothetical third-generation Italian-American were. I'm technically a third-generation "Italian-American" myself, but the two previous generations mixed with other white Americans, so that the only notable evidence of Italian heritage is my surname (which most don't even recognize as Italian). I'm not culturally Italian beyond enjoying Italian food on occasion. So I think I'd be less ethnic than the hypothetical English immigrant, though the immigrant's kids might end up with a less foreign surname. ;)

I had in mind the New Jersey and New York Italians.

Mercury
02-17-2012, 12:05 AM
America has a done a pretty good job at assimilating various white ethnics that have moved here thus far. We're even in the process of assimilating the Jews, which is something no European nation has ever pulled off, if I'm not mistaken. It does perplex me why anyone could be an American but hold a secret loyalty to a foreign nation, especially one their ancestors have left behind centuries ago. Anyways, I'm going to agree with what Teddy Roosevelt said, and advocate we restrict immigration to northern Europeans. The people that made up the 'English race' were Scandinavians, northern Germans, Normans, Celts, etc..

Also we always need to accept Ashkenazi Jews, excluding one of the most intelligent ethnic groups isn't exactly a smart idea. ;)

Treffie
02-17-2012, 12:09 AM
The first to discover North America may very well have been an Irish monk, St. Brendan, centuries before the Vikings:

http://history.howstuffworks.com/north-american-history/irish-monk-america.htm

Folklore. A bit like this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoc)

Joe McCarthy
02-17-2012, 12:25 AM
Folklore. A bit like this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoc)

It was taken seriously in Columbus' time and has been seriously countenanced in academia:

http://ics.villanova.edu/in_saint_brendan.htm


When a large seaside rock with inscriptions on it resembling Irish letters was discovered in Newfoundland a few years ago, it led Canada’s national archivist to declare, “There is no doubt that Irish monks reached our shores before the Vikings.”

Corraidh
02-17-2012, 12:26 AM
Let's just compromise and say the Celts were there first.;)

Raskolnikov
02-17-2012, 12:27 AM
We're even in the process of assimilating the Jews, which is something no European nation has ever pulled off, if I'm not mistaken. Eh... they assimilated us.


It does perplex me why anyone could be an American but hold a secret loyalty to a foreign nation,

Treffie
02-17-2012, 12:34 AM
It was taken seriously in Columbus' time and has been seriously countenanced in academia:


I guess it's serious then?

Joe McCarthy
02-17-2012, 12:36 AM
I guess it's serious then?

It could be true. :)

Mercury
02-17-2012, 12:39 AM
Eh... they assimilated us.

Be glad the Jews are assimilating:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=470715&postcount=1

Osweo
02-17-2012, 12:44 AM
We're even in the process of assimilating the Jews, which is something no European nation has ever pulled off, if I'm not mistaken.
You were probably eating kosher cookies and scratching your circumcised crotch while you wrote that. ;)


It was taken seriously in Columbus' time and has been seriously countenanced in academia:

http://ics.villanova.edu/in_saint_brendan.htm
That link has some serious bullshit in it, referring to megalithic arrangements as 'Celtic', and supposing that a Christian Celt would erect them even if they were!

Why are the pre-Columbus things always so VAGUE? I want to SEE this bloody Newfie rock, and READ these damned letters, and the page doesn't even give a name for it. :tsk:

I see no major reason to deny the possibility that the odd lost mariner did get across, mind. I just haven't seen any evidence yet.

Beorn
02-17-2012, 12:49 AM
I see no major reason to deny the possibility that the odd lost mariner did get across, mind. I just haven't seen any evidence yet.

http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/History/Maritime/Sources/1476brasil.htm

:victory0:

Joe McCarthy
02-17-2012, 12:56 AM
Why are the pre-Columbus things always so VAGUE?

They're really not. While the Vikings may or may not have been beaten to the punch, there's little question of whether they were here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15040888


And the Vikings?

That is well established. I visited the archeological site at the northern tip of Newfoundland. There is no question about it. It has been definitely determined that the Vikings were there for about 10 years — specifically, Leif Erikson and his extended family.

Is there any physical evidence that remains today?

Yes, the remains of their houses, of their settlement. There was an archeological dig that lasted six or seven years, and then they reconstructed the settlement about 100 yards away.

Mercury
02-17-2012, 02:48 AM
Well, one could go further back long before there were even Celts. Haplogroup X (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)#North_America) is somewhat of a mystery; being found in 3% of the amerindian population. Here is a genetic distribution:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA).PNG

Then there are rumors of Phoenicians, Megalithic Europeans, Paleolithic Europeans, and so forth arriving into the New World. Of course, not to forget the Kennewick man debacle.

But as for me I'm going with what we know and assuming Vikings were the first Europeans to reach the New World.

SaxonCeorl
02-17-2012, 04:32 AM
I and all of the men on my dad's side call our mothers "mum" (but I do write it as "mom" as per the American custom). Perhaps that's a carry-over from England?

Corraidh
02-17-2012, 04:35 AM
My family calls our mothers "ma". It's a carry-over from our Scottish ancestors who couldn't be bothered with the second syllable in "mother".:P

Peyrol
02-17-2012, 10:31 AM
The English immigrant would assimilate fairly easily and be less ethnic then a third generation Italian.

Thank you for the great consideration :laugh:

Valhallan
02-17-2012, 03:09 PM
There is some proof that the Americas may have been visited and settled by the megalithic builders because there have been stone circles found that resemble the ones found in the British Isles.

http://www.hunttreasure.net/americas-stonehenge-miami-stone-circle-hides-2000-year-old-secrets/1052

Your link says it was built by Native Americans.....

Leif is the first european with actual physical evidence and actual documentation that he wrote about his exploration and colony.



The English immigrant would assimilate fairly easily and be less ethnic then a third generation Italian.


I'm not so sure if i agree with that. The way America is, it forces people to assimilate. My friend is a Mexican who's parents come directly from Mexico. By the way he acts, you would think his family has been in the nation for generations. It also helps that American culture is so widespread.