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Mosov
02-16-2012, 01:15 AM
I've always been interested in this question. Do you think Austrians are Germans, just with a different political label, or are Austrians a separate ethnic group from the Germans? In addition, what you think about Swiss Germans?

safinator
02-16-2012, 01:19 AM
I consider them differently as i do with Serbians and Croatians.

SaxonCeorl
02-16-2012, 01:21 AM
Very, very different, IMO. I think of Austrians and Swiss as being largely Alpine, while proper Germans are Nordic. I see it more like "Germans = Dutch = Danes".

Disclaimer: This is all simply my opinion and has very little to no grounding in actual fact.

Mosov
02-16-2012, 01:25 AM
Very, very different, IMO. I think of Austrians and Swiss as being largely Alpine, while proper Germans are Nordic. I see it more like "Germans = Dutch = Danes".

Disclaimer: This is all simply my opinion and has very little to no grounding in actual fact.

How about Bavarians, they are technically Germans, but probably more similar to Austrians than North Germans.

Osweo
02-16-2012, 02:24 AM
Austrians ARE Bavarians.

Gaztelu
02-16-2012, 02:28 AM
I see Austrians as a regional variation of Germans, much like Prussians, Alsatians, Saxons, etc.

SaxonCeorl
02-16-2012, 05:45 AM
How about Bavarians, they are technically Germans, but probably more similar to Austrians than North Germans.

You're right, and I only view them as technically being Germans. I don't see them as "proper" Germans. Proper Germans have to look like me.

I'll probably take so much flak for this but, rest assured all swarthy Germans, my opinion on this matter is based purely on my own quirky view and has no basis in fact ;)

rashka
02-16-2012, 05:57 AM
I think they were a Germanicized group of people that included different types of which Slav is one.

riverman
02-16-2012, 06:10 AM
........

Mosov
02-16-2012, 06:14 AM
Are there any notable genetic differences?

Corraidh
02-16-2012, 06:26 AM
I would say mostly Germanic; but, there were tons of other peoples in modern day Austria as well. The first peoples were probably Pannonian (who were "kind of" Greek). They then mixed with the Gaulish and became Celts. Long after, copious Germanic peoples came as did many Slavs (the former outnumbering the latter). I think it's fair to call Austrians "Germanic" but if I were Austrian I'd call myself, simply, Austrian.

derLowe
02-16-2012, 06:27 AM
Are there any notable genetic differences?

Don't know about genetic, all the Austrians I know are very short tempered and drive rather badly, which is in very different to my German acquaintances.

TheBrownBear
02-16-2012, 06:32 AM
i think they are the same people.

Edit: Hitler was Austrian actually but had no problems becoming German Leader, if he were not German do you think he would become Leader of Germany? Like if he were French or English he would never become Leader of Germany back than.

Corraidh
02-16-2012, 06:40 AM
i think they are the same people.

Edit: Hitler was Austrian actually but had no problems becoming German Leader, if he were not German do you think he would become Leader of Germany? Like if he were French or English he would never become Leader of Germany back than.
He was of Braunau am Inn which was a Bavarian town. The Bavarian being a Germanic people. Carinthia, on the other hand, was first a Celtic stead before it became a Slavic princedom.

TheBrownBear
02-16-2012, 06:42 AM
He was of Braunau am Inn which was a Bavarian town. The Bavarian being a Germanic people. Carinthia, on the other hand, was first a Celtic stead before it became a Slavic princedom.

i think all european peoples have various inputs from different tribes. the germans from germany also have slav input in the east of germany, but they are basically all the same, namely germans. :)

Defiance
02-16-2012, 06:46 AM
I think of Austrians and Swiss as being largely Alpine, while proper Germans are Nordic.
Where's the "facepalm" emoticon?

Please drop the Nazi-Nordicist rubbish. I mean, seriously, how many Germans are actually phenotypically Nordic?


This is all simply my opinion and has very little to no grounding in actual fact.
Ya got that much right.

Corraidh
02-16-2012, 06:47 AM
i think all european peoples have various inputs from different tribes. the germans from germany also have slav input in the east of germany, but they are basically all the same, namely germans. :)
Very true.

Mosov
02-16-2012, 06:57 AM
I would expect more genetic contribution from Hungary/Slavic elements in Austrians.

Though it seems Austrians are a bit darker than Germans.

Where would Austrian Chancellor pass?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Werner_Faymann_Wien08-2008a.jpg/404px-Werner_Faymann_Wien08-2008a.jpg

Loki
02-16-2012, 07:01 AM
Where's the "facepalm" emoticon?

Please drop the Nazi-Nordicist rubbish. I mean, seriously, how many Germans are actually phenotypically Nordic?



Are you as old as the boy in your avvie? Judging by your posts it might be the case. Disgruntled boy going through puberty?

Drop the attitude already son - please :)

Defiance
02-16-2012, 07:09 AM
Are you as old as the boy in your avvie?
....."Boy"?

Regardless, I think I have the right be offended. Especially with s**t like this.


Drop the attitude already son - please :)
Perhaps I will when you will, "son."

Loki
02-16-2012, 07:13 AM
Regardless, I think I have the right be offended. Especially with s**t like this.


You were the one who was rude first to SaxonCeorl, without provocation. I don't like attitudes like those :)

Defiance
02-16-2012, 07:22 AM
You were the one who was rude first to SaxonCeorl, without provocation. I don't like attitudes like those :)
I can assure you that I wasn't trying to be rude. I've just got little tolerance for idiocy.
And yes, I am a naturally angry person - what of it?

Anyway, I would just like to apologize to the OP for the little tangent.

Loki
02-16-2012, 07:27 AM
I can assure you that I wasn't trying to be rude. I've just got little tolerance for idiocy.
And yes, I am a naturally angry person - what of it?

Anyway, I would just like to apologize to the OP for the little tangent.

Okay cool man :)

Just remember - someone having a viewpoint different from yours does not mean they're idiots necessarily.

Thanks for apologising, have a nice day. :)

Redar14
02-16-2012, 09:26 AM
Very, very different, IMO. I think of Austrians and Swiss as being largely Alpine, while proper Germans are Nordic. I see it more like "Germans = Dutch = Danes".

Not true! Bavarians for example are much more similar to Austrians than to Northern Germans.

Geminus
02-16-2012, 10:40 AM
From a historical perspective Austrians are Germans for sure, that's also how I see them. Wien was capital of the Holy Roman Empire for a long time, and many of it's emperors were descendants from the House of Habsburg.
That Austria isn't part of Germany today is because of the unfavorable development only in the nearer history.
When the modern Germany was founded in 1871 Greater Germany couldn't be realized (with Greater Germany including the German speaking parts of Austria-Hungary).
After World War I, when Austria-Hungary was dissolved, the majority of the Austrians wanted to join Germany, but it was forbidden by the Treaty of St. Germain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Saint-Germain-en-Laye_(1919)).
Also the Anschluss in 1938 was welcomed by the great majority of Austrians.
After WW II there was the concept of creating a new "Austrian-non-German" identity, which until now seemed to be rather successful. But there are still quite a number of Austrians who see themselves as Germans, most notably many supporters of the FPÖ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria).

The Journeyman
02-16-2012, 11:03 AM
Austrians are of a separate culture, although similar to Bavarians. The difference lies mainly in it's history. Austria's institutions are older (University of Vienna is the oldest in the German-speaking world), the people identify with the monarchy of the Habsburgs and the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the struggle with the Turks etc, rather than with Germany, or what was the union of German states under the Prussians.

The individual provinces of Austria also have a very independent spirit, as Austrians often identify first with the province they live in: Tiroler, Salzburger etc.

Austrians also tend to be more charming and fun-loving than the Germans. Austrians drink wine, Germans drink Beer. Austrians drink beer too but their rich and ancient wine tradition is one that separates them from the Germans.

SaxonCeorl
02-16-2012, 04:21 PM
I've just got little tolerance for idiocy.

It's not idiocy when I specifically made clear that I was just being silly and 'having a go'. You need to read more closely ;)

noricum
02-16-2012, 05:37 PM
Settlement in Austria:

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/roapazeinli/OesterreichEthnisch.jpg

Caption:

Slavic settlement + bavarian immigration
Celtic and rhaeto-roman settlement + bavarinan immigration
Rhaeto-roman settlement + alamannic immigration
Rhaeto-roman
Avars
Bavarian colonisation
Almost unpopulated
Names of illyric derivation
Names of celtic derivation
Names of roman derivation
Names of slavic derivation
Names of german derivation
Ring of the Avars



Austrian mugs:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24027

Austria is Germany's extention to the southeast in all respects. Thus we differ in some respects from the German mean, but that's just normal considering that Austria is a border region.

To me, there can be no doubt that Austrians are ethnic Bavarians -hence Germans. While nowadays most Austrians believe in a distinct Austrian Nation and Ethnicity. Amongst them also many FPÖ-voters, just to mention that. (Proving that one can vote the right party out of the wrong reasons;))

The Journeyman
02-16-2012, 06:06 PM
Settlement in Austria:

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/roapazeinli/OesterreichEthnisch.jpg

Austrian mugs:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24027

Austria is Germany's extention to the southeast in all respects. Thus we differ in some respects from the German mean, but that's just normal considering that Austria is a border region.

To me, there can be no doubt that Austrians are ethnic Bavarians -hence Germans. While nowadays most Austrians believe in a distinct Austrian Nation and Ethnicity. Amongst them also many FPÖ-voters, just to mention that. (Proving that one can vote the right party out of the wrong reasons;))

Well ethnically or rather racially, Austrians obviously aren't different really from Bavarians, Austria's history stems from the Duchy of Bavaria. But if you think they are the same nation, then by similar reasoning, the Scotts are ethnically Irish because they were originally a collection of Irish Gaelic clans and still speak a similar Gaelic dialect. Nevermind the hundreds of years of history, customs, monarchy that separates them.

Mosov
02-16-2012, 06:11 PM
I do think the long time of separation between Austria and Germany (and its states) allowed for a separate identity to from in Austria stemming from the Hapsburg monarchy interactions with Hungarians, Serbs, etc. and obviously the dominant Catholic religion. Of course the identity was reinforced after WW2. In my view what we are seeing is the steady process of a formation of a separate ethnic group. The reason there's so much controversy is if Austrians=Germans or not, is that they are still in the process of becoming a separate ethnic group, which takes naturally a rather long time. The fact that most Austrians consider themselves Austrian not German is a big step in this process, and I think given a long period of time, this controversy will die down.

Just look at how numerous other ethnic groups have been formed.

Supreme American
02-16-2012, 06:13 PM
As I understand, most of Austria is ethnic German as it was once the same country. Oesterreich just means "Eastern Reich," anyway.

The Journeyman
02-16-2012, 06:29 PM
As I understand, most of Austria is ethnic German as it was once the same country. Oesterreich just means "Eastern Reich," anyway.

Large swaths of Italian and French land were also part of that "country" you're referring to.

Geminus
02-16-2012, 08:25 PM
Large swaths of Italian and French land were also part of that "country" you're referring to.

But Austria is part of the ethnolinguistic group of Germans which Italians and French are not. They speak German with a Bavarian dialect, so there is a fluent transition of the dialects at the border between the FRG and Austria. Here you can see where the Bavarian dialect is prevalent:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/bar/6/6e/Boarisch-mit-Flaggn-02.png
As there was pointed out before, Austria was created by Bavarian settlement. The differences between Austrians and Bavarians are much less than for example the differences between Bavarians and North Germans. So it's rather absurd to claim Austria is that distinct from the rest of Germany, that it forms a new nation.

Pallantides
02-16-2012, 08:29 PM
You're right, and I only view them as technically being Germans. I don't see them as "proper" Germans. Proper Germans have to look like me.


So a lot of great Germans are not "proper" Germans then by your definition.

Thraex
02-16-2012, 08:30 PM
Just because Austrians speak German doesn't mean they're ethnically German. The only real link between Germany/Prussia and Austria is Hitler and German language.

Geminus
02-16-2012, 08:37 PM
Just because Austrians speak German doesn't mean they're ethnically German. The only real link between Germany/Prussia and Austria is Hitler and German language.

It would be fortunate if only people with at least a tiny knowledge of German history would state their opinions...

Midori
02-16-2012, 08:49 PM
Austrians are just Germans with a bit of Slavic and Italian influence. Same goes for Swiss Germans, but with French influence instead of Slavic.

noricum
02-16-2012, 09:14 PM
Nevermind the hundreds of years of history, customs, monarchy that separates them.

The separation wasn't as strong as you might think, at least until 1866.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Confederation

Austrian was only the collective term for all the different ethnicities within the A-H monarchy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Austria_Hungary_ethnic.svg

The idea of a distinct Austrian Ethnicity and Nation is of Austro-Fashist origin which saw Austria as the "better Germany" because of the wide spread Catholicism amog other things.:rolleyes:
1938 showed that this ideas wasn't widely accepted.
In 1945 this idea, in combination with the "Hitlers first victim-story" suddenly became quite useful to finally get shot of allied occupation troops later in 1955. From that point on the distinct Austrian Nation/Ethnicity became our reason of state and more and more accepted within the population.

Mosov
02-16-2012, 09:25 PM
It would be fortunate if only people with at least a tiny knowledge of German history would state their opinions...

The question is do you think Austrians will be strictly a different ethnic group in let's say 100 years? Are we witnessing the ethnic group formation in process?

SaxonCeorl
02-16-2012, 09:27 PM
So a lot of great Germans are not "proper" Germans then by your definition.

:icon_yes:

Here's my kind of German (she's actually from Luxembourg)

http://justwm.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/wm-models-just-wm-management-paris-mannequin-mannequinat-fashion-famous-model-agency-catwalk-defiles-mode-beauty-fashion-consulting-endorsement-beaute-agence-modeling-celebrite-cel62.jpg

:thumb001:

Pallantides
02-16-2012, 09:32 PM
Agrippa view himself as German... would you deny him that?;)

noricum
02-16-2012, 09:34 PM
Agrippa view himself as German... would you deny him that?;)

Or even Inqiring Mind?:D

hajduk
02-16-2012, 09:34 PM
...

SaxonCeorl
02-16-2012, 09:37 PM
Agrippa view himself as German... would you deny him that?;)

No, I just think of Germany as being similar to the Netherlands and Denmark. That's just me. Obviously others can see it differently.

Like, if I went to Germany I'd be most interested in visiting Schleswig-Holstein

Check out this Dutch girl:

http://euro2008.worldcupblog.org/files/2008/06/dutch_girl_031.jpg

But really, I'm just trolling Bavarians and Austrians :thumb001:

Odoacer
02-16-2012, 10:02 PM
As far as I'm concerned, Austrians & Swiss Germans are all Germans - though for obvious historical reasons many Austrians & Swiss Germans might prefer to identify as something separate from the Bundesrepublik Deutschland & its citizens.

Mosov
02-16-2012, 10:04 PM
:icon_yes:

Here's my kind of German (she's actually from Luxembourg)

http://justwm.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/wm-models-just-wm-management-paris-mannequin-mannequinat-fashion-famous-model-agency-catwalk-defiles-mode-beauty-fashion-consulting-endorsement-beaute-agence-modeling-celebrite-cel62.jpg

:thumb001:

beautiful...where do I sign up? ;)

Osweo
02-16-2012, 10:15 PM
Well ethnically or rather racially, Austrians obviously aren't different really from Bavarians, Austria's history stems from the Duchy of Bavaria. But if you think they are the same nation, then by similar reasoning, the Scotts are ethnically Irish because they were originally a collection of Irish Gaelic clans and still speak a similar Gaelic dialect. Nevermind the hundreds of years of history, customs, monarchy that separates them.

THat's a terrible analogy. Scotland grew from an uneasy royal union of around five distinct ethnic stocks, the Irish being a historic superstratum in just ONE of these. The territory of modern Austria is far more homogenous, and grew in an organic fashion due to a single process of Bajuwar expansion and assimilation. :thumb001:

OrK364
02-16-2012, 10:15 PM
From a historical perspective Austrians are Germans for sure, that's also how I see them. Wien was capital of the Holy Roman Empire for a long time, and many of it's emperors were descendants from the House of Habsburg.
That Austria isn't part of Germany today is because of the unfavorable development only in the nearer history.
When the modern Germany was founded in 1871 Greater Germany couldn't be realized (with Greater Germany including the German speaking parts of Austria-Hungary).
After World War I, when Austria-Hungary was dissolved, the majority of the Austrians wanted to join Germany, but it was forbidden by the Treaty of St. Germain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Saint-Germain-en-Laye_(1919)).
Also the Anschluss in 1938 was welcomed by the great majority of Austrians.
After WW II there was the concept of creating a new "Austrian-non-German" identity, which until now seemed to be rather successful. But there are still quite a number of Austrians who see themselves as Germans, most notably many supporters of the FPÖ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria).

true..from my Mom side I'm an Austrian and my grandpa always referred to Germans like "brothers" :) I would say austrians just "special kind" of Germans :) :beer::beer::beer:

The Journeyman
02-17-2012, 04:42 AM
Agrippa view himself as German... would you deny him that?;)


THat's a terrible analogy. Scotland grew from an uneasy royal union of around five distinct ethnic stocks, the Irish being a historic superstratum in just ONE of these. The territory of modern Austria is far more homogenous, and grew in an organic fashion due to a single process of Bajuwar expansion and assimilation. :thumb001:

The analogy is not terrible. Uneducated people confuse Scott's for Irishmen regularly too. There is no perfect analogy anyway.

You should try telling a Tiroler he is Bavarian, he will explain to you the difference in the most minute details. ;)

The cultural differences ARE minor, with Bavaria, that is. However, the histories of the two took them in different directions. Bavarians don't have a historical connection with the cultural centers of Austria as the Austrians do.

I'm personally divided on the issue, so I'm not going to get into a big debate about it (seeing as it is more a matter of subjective opinion anyway). Austria imo, has a more glorious history and power base, it has two historic capitals of the Habsburg Empire, yet I also know that Austrians and Germans are joined at the hip when government and/or religion isn't involved. I was more trying to incorporate the views of my Austrian friends and family. Believe me, I've debated the same issue with family before, and There are nazi sympathizers among them as well! Yet they feel that their history, connection to the land, folk and high culture are important enough to make a distinction.

Leliana
02-22-2012, 04:13 PM
I've always been interested in this question. Do you think Austrians are Germans, just with a different political label, or are Austrians a separate ethnic group from the Germans? In addition, what you think about Swiss Germans?
Austrians are Germans as much as Bavarians or Swabs are Germans. My family lives distributed in Southern Germany, largely Bavaria and Swabia, and Austria and I own both the German and Austrian citizenship. There's no difference when I move across the border and back. :) Freilassing and Burghausen are located in Germany, Salzburg and Linz are located in Austria but the people and the culture are the same. The border between Austria and Germany is an artificial and synthetic one, people are being indoctrinated but most still feel that we are the same people and belong to each other at the end of the day. There's way more disparity between Munich and Berlin than between Munich and Vienna.

Swiss Germans are Swabs, Swiss German is like continued Swabian dialect.

Non-Germans and Non-Austrians talking about Germany and Austria as two different ethnicities slander my people and me and my heritage on a personal level. They should ask themselves which legitimation they have to utter such flimflam. :ohwell:

lepa
02-22-2012, 04:15 PM
They are like Bulgarians-Macedoanians.

Leliana
02-22-2012, 04:21 PM
They are like Bulgarians-Macedoanians.
Surely not, with certainty.

Magyar the Conqueror
02-22-2012, 04:22 PM
Genetically wise they seem to be halfway between Hungarians and Germans.

Leliana
02-22-2012, 04:26 PM
Genetically wise they seem to be halfway between Hungarians and Germans.
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/10/26/129010824856928587.jpg

Magyar the Conqueror
02-22-2012, 04:29 PM
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/10/26/129010824856928587.jpg

Hungarians had German influence, Swabians for example have assimilated into the Hungarian gene pool.

I saw simply referencing this.

http://spittoon.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/novembreblogpostfig.jpg

Leliana
02-22-2012, 04:36 PM
Hungarians had German influence, Swabians for example have assimilated into the Hungarian gene pool.

I saw simply referencing this.
It's true that some Austrians had certain Hungarian influence but not the entire country. Stating that Austria is halfway German and Hungarian is bollocks. What's true is that some minor parts of Austria, namely the Burgenland, have got some mediocre Hungarian influence. The same situation with some areas of southern Kärnten with Slovenian impact. But that all Austrians, from Vorarlberg over Tirol to Niederösterreich, are halfway Hungarian is absurdism. :)

Magyar the Conqueror
02-22-2012, 04:41 PM
It's true that Austria had some Hungarian influence but not the entire country. Saying that Austria is halfway German and Hungarian is bollocks. What is true is that some minor parts of Austria, namely the Burgenland, have got some mediocre Hungarian influence. The same with some areas of southern Kärnten with Slovenian impact. But that all Austrians, from Vorarlberg over Tirol to Niederösterreich, are halfway Hungarian is absurdism. :)

Hungarians had quite a bit of German influence. In a lot of Hungarian lands, mainly from the Swabians. In fact about 10 million Germans lived in the Kingdom of Hungary. Our genetics are not that different from any other European, and genetics have proven that we are more similar to Germans/Austrians than Turks/Mongols/gypsies.

But yes my statement was a bit stupid, but my point was that not all Austrians are genetically identical to all Germans.

Rastko
02-23-2012, 07:06 PM
It's simple.Germany and Austria must be disunited for political reasons: stopping Germany in having more power in europe.They have to balance it.

The Journeyman
02-24-2012, 02:49 AM
It's more about Austrian arrogance. A few Hundred years ago they believed they (ruling from Vienna) should rule over the German nations, but it didn't work out that way. The Viennese especially are proud to be separate from Germany.

Mosov
02-24-2012, 05:22 AM
Don't Austrians get really offended if you call them Germans?

The Journeyman
02-24-2012, 05:38 AM
Don't Austrians get really offended if you call them Germans?

Not really offended, but they will correct you. :D

Septentrion
12-23-2012, 03:50 AM
Austrians are German-speaking people, however some are Slavic too. Most Austrians are similar to southern Germans, Swiss Germans. Difference between them and Germans is that the Dinaric and Alpine elements are more obvious here. The big Northern European types Borreby, Brunn, Dalo-faelid big-boned types of northern and central Germany are rare or less common. Nordids are seen as individuals. Nevertheless mixed Sub-Nordid/Noric are much more common than in Germany. Austrians are not quite as light as Germans but not much darker either. The most ruthless German dictator A.Hitler was of Austrian descent though he had blue eyes and dark brown hair, he suffered from an inferiority complex "vis a vis" of his German cousins whom he saw as a "perfect blond type". There is no such a thing as a perfect blond type nowhere in Europe, if somebody think so they're fooling themselves just as the Nazis did. However the truth is this, in pigmentation due to their mostly Germanic ancestry, blond hair, blue eyes, a fair skin are common in both Germany and Austria, but more common in Germany than Austria. Recent stats show for blond, pure blue eyes in percentage was (33%),(37%) for Austria and (41%),(53%) for Germany. The Germanic element seems to be stronger in Germany, while other element such as Slavic,Magyar,etc.. are part of Austria. So Austrian doesn't equal fully German, only partially.

Wild North
12-23-2012, 09:31 AM
Hitler was indeed Austrian. And it is said that the old conservative Prussian-German nationalists-patriots (like Hindenburg) hated him for this.. Like calling him the "Bohemian corpral" and such.. But in the end they had no other choice, than to choose him.. :rolleyes:

Corvus
12-23-2012, 11:40 AM
Don't Austrians get really offended if you call them Germans?

No, in contrast to the situation in Great Britain with Scots or Irish hardly anyone in Austrian will ever be offenden if you refer to them as Germans.

We can explain it quite simply:

Although there is a significant Slavic genetic element in Austira, from a cultural perspective they are more German than some regions in Germany.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57525&referrerid=4693

Even former Slavic strongholds like Carinthia or Stryria are nowadays totally dominated by the Bavarian Leitkultur

There is only one exception in the form of the capital Vienna which is more or less a cultural melting pot throughout history with strong Czech and Jewish elements, which can be observed also by the language they use, which sounds more like Jiddisch than proper Bavarian.

Corvus
12-23-2012, 01:42 PM
Austrians are German-speaking people, however some are Slavic too. Most Austrians are similar to southern Germans, Swiss Germans. Difference between them and Germans is that the Dinaric and Alpine elements are more obvious here. The big Northern European types Borreby, Brunn, Dalo-faelid big-boned types of northern and central Germany are rare or less common. Nordids are seen as individuals. Nevertheless mixed Sub-Nordid/Noric are much more common than in Germany. Austrians are not quite as light as Germans but not much darker either. The most ruthless German dictator A.Hitler was of Austrian descent though he had blue eyes and dark brown hair, he suffered from an inferiority complex "vis a vis" of his German cousins whom he saw as a "perfect blond type". There is no such a thing as a perfect blond type nowhere in Europe, if somebody think so they're fooling themselves just as the Nazis did. However the truth is this, in pigmentation due to their mostly Germanic ancestry, blond hair, blue eyes, a fair skin are common in both Germany and Austria, but more common in Germany than Austria. Recent stats show for blond, pure blue eyes in percentage was (33%),(37%) for Austria and (41%),(53%) for Germany. The Germanic element seems to be stronger in Germany, while other element such as Slavic,Magyar,etc.. are part of Austria. So Austrian doesn't equal fully German, only partially.

Your description is more or less accurate but I can`t subscribe the last sentence. That sound to me like Austrians are only 50% German, while in fact they are 90% at least on a cultural level.

Genetically it is a different picture though

Septentrion
12-23-2012, 08:31 PM
I only meant genetically, of course linguistically and culturally they're fully German.

Valhallan
12-23-2012, 08:33 PM
Danes = Germans?

Czech = Germans?

Witalka
12-23-2012, 09:10 PM
Bavarians are taller, slimmer and have stricter features than Austrians.

Austrians are smaller, curvier and have rounder eyes like Adolf Hitler.

Swiss-Germans are like a mix of Germans, Austrians and French.

Germaniac
12-23-2012, 09:14 PM
I look swiss german ahahahaahhahaha

Corvus
12-24-2012, 01:09 PM
Bavarians are taller, slimmer and have stricter features than Austrians.

Austrians are smaller, curvier and have rounder eyes like Adolf Hitler.

Swiss-Germans are like a mix of Germans, Austrians and French.

My dear Russian friend. Please spare us with such generalistaions.
In reality Austrians and Bavarians are hard to distinguish.
There are tall and small people everywhere

Witalka
12-24-2012, 03:00 PM
My dear Russian friend. Please spare us with such generalistaions.
In reality Austrians and Bavarians are hard to distinguish.
There are tall and small people everywhere

Maybe for you but facts are different.

Fact is that Bavarians are taller and slimmer.

Austrians are smaller, curvier.

Nadezhda89
12-25-2012, 08:49 PM
Very interesting. But for sure Austrians have more gloriouis history. :)

Leliana
12-26-2012, 02:09 AM
German and Austrian history has to be seen as a combination and as one unity because we are the same people. My family is German and Austrian, I got a German and an Austrian passport but I don't have two ethnicities, two native languages, two identities or two different cultures.

That's the way it is!

Arrow Cross
12-26-2012, 02:37 AM
Just as much as Bavarians, Prussians, Saxons, Westfalians and any other German groups are German. Characterized by many local flavours, but undeniable parts of a common nation. Though with the current state of Germany, those from Ostmark should be glad they're in a separate and slightly less suicidal country; for the moment.

malejj
01-10-2013, 02:28 PM
Most definitely NOT one and the same. I'm half Austrian and my Viennese family is far from German, both in appearance and culture.

Although many Austrians will have Germanic ancestry they are more of a Germanicized group of Slavs, Bohemians, Balkans in my opinion...

ˇołnir
01-10-2013, 02:31 PM
Austrian nation is compsed of German majority and Sloveno-Croat-Hungar minority.

malejj
01-10-2013, 02:42 PM
Austrian nation is compsed of German majority and Sloveno-Croat-Hungar minority.

I think the German influence in Austria, from an ancestral point of view, is smaller than popular opinion in the Anthropological field would have us believe...

noricum
01-10-2013, 04:55 PM
Spread of R1b-S21 (U106) which rightfully can be considered a "Germanic marker" and even has a peak in Austria along the Danube river.

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/roapazeinli/Haplogroup-R1b-u-106_zps8d37f302.gif

(May partly derivate from Hallstatt remais who did not take part in the Germanic ethnogenesis though.)

Some more points:
not all of R1a in Austria necessarily derivates Slavic influence
Slavic influence in eastern Germany is at least as strong as in eastern Austria, yet nobody states eastern Germans are no Germans
Rhaetian base of western Austria is often overlooked
actual Hungarian influence is minor, still western Hungarians are genetically close to eastern Austrians

Corvus
01-10-2013, 05:01 PM
Austrian nation is compsed of German majority and Sloveno-Croat-Hungar minority.

Sloveno-Czech-Hungarian minority. Croat is neglectable

By Hungarian I don`t mean the Hun or Turanid ancestry, it is more the Hungarian/Slavic heritage based on the Austrian-Hungarian empire.

Generally we can say there is a Eastern/Western divide
The Western part of Austria containing the provinces of
Upper Austria, Salzburg, Tyrol and Vorarlberg has almost zero
Slavic influx, while the East and South has a considerable amount

Corvus
01-10-2013, 05:12 PM
Hitler was indeed Austrian. And it is said that the old conservative Prussian-German nationalists-patriots (like Hindenburg) hated him for this.. Like calling him the "Bohemian corpral" and such.. But in the end they had no other choice, than to choose him.. :rolleyes:

Bohemian corporal. Never heard about that. Sounds funny though :p

noricum
01-10-2013, 05:34 PM
Bohemian corporal. Never heard about that. Sounds funny though :p

Hindenburg confused Braunau (Broumov) in Czechia, which he might remembered from 1866, with Hitlers real birthplace Braunau/Innviertel Upper Austria.

ˇołnir
01-10-2013, 05:35 PM
Spread of R1b-S21 (U106) which rightfully can be considered a "Germanic marker" and even has a peak in Austria along the Danube river.

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/roapazeinli/Haplogroup-R1b-u-106_zps8d37f302.gif

(May partly derivate from Hallstatt remais who did not take part in the Germanic ethnogenesis though.)

Some more points:
not all of R1a in Austria necessarily derivates Slavic influence
Slavic influence in eastern Germany is at least as strong as in eastern Austria, yet nobody states eastern Germans are no Germans
Rhaetian base of western Austria is often overlooked
actual Hungarian influence is minor, still western Hungarians are genetically close to eastern Austrians

What i esentially see problematic with this map is if this haplogroup is German or Germanic how come some westernmost Polish area has relatively high frequency if that area was deported an populated by east Poles from Kresy.

noricum
01-10-2013, 06:04 PM
What i esentially see problematic with this map is if this haplogroup is German or Germanic how come some westernmost Polish area has relatively high frequency if that area was deported an populated by east Poles from Kresy.

May be some where slavified during the last ca. 1500 years?

Permafrost
01-10-2013, 06:16 PM
If Austria was the one to unify the Germanophone population of Europe, we wouldn't be having this discussion today. After all, for half a millenium, Vienna was the administrative center of the Germans, and the Habsburgs were their leaders.

Why I presume Bismarck opposed Austrians during the unification of Germany is because the AO was a multicultural shithole, by the end of the 19th century it contained every possible religion from Catholicism to Tengriism. And if I am not mistaken, in the same era as a result of ethnic nationalism running rampant in the empire, the Habsburgs allowed Slavs to have administrative roles (sort of a last ditch tactics to hold everything together) in Vienna, and I don't need to tell you that when a Prussian hears "Slav" and "Administrative position" in the same sentence, he developes an acute allergic reaction.

Anyway, ethnicity is a very subjective term, today you can find Austrians who think of themselves as ethnic Germans, on the other hand there are also those who oppose Pan-Germanism (and Pan-Slavism), vouching for an Austrian ethnicity instead.

ˇołnir
01-10-2013, 06:16 PM
May be some where slavified during the last ca. 1500 years?

I rather doubt it at least not kresy Poles. But regardless genetic maps and maps in general must be always considered with some reserve. :)

noricum
01-10-2013, 06:30 PM
But regardless genetic maps and maps in general must be always considered with some reserve. :)

Yeah that's true. But you'll rarely see a map where genetics, history and meta-ethnicity fit together better than in this example. Also Polako from eurogenes agrees whith U-106 being a "germanic marker" and he can hardly be considered a "Germanicist"/nemčur.

Ctwentysevenj
01-18-2013, 12:29 AM
http://unknownbeautifulwomen.wordpress.com/tag/austria/

In the above link, it shows a blue eyed blond from Klagenfurt, Carinthia.

Polski
07-14-2013, 11:47 AM
Austrians are Germans, there is no question about this. Germany is named after the people not the other way around, the only reason Austria and Austrians are not part of Germany is because during the unification of Germany the enemies of them Bismarck, Prussia and the Prussians did not want them to join up and unite it as for a couple of reasons 1) Austria is Catholic whereas Prussia is Protestant 2) the Austrian empire ruled over some places that were not German; thus the German nation-state would have had to include some non-German areas.

Vienna was the capital of the medieval Germany and Austria ruled Germany (Holy Roman Empire of the German nation) for centuries until the Austro-Prussian war in 1866 when Prussia excluded Austria from Germany. In the Austrian empire the German-speaking Austrians still considered themselves Germans first, there was no Austrian national identity. Immediately after WW1 the name of Austria was "The Republic of German-Austria" but the Treaty of Versailles forbid union between German-Austria and Germany and remained separate politically. The only reason Austria and Germany are separate is because of politics. Austrians are ethnic Germans and wanted union with Germany twice after it was formed as a nation-state. The Germans of Germany certainly had no problem with Adolf Hitler coming to power in Germany and as everyone knows he was Austrian-born but he always considered himself German and he was German he was an ethnic German born right on the Austro-German border in a town that was historically Bavarian, despite not becoming a German citizen until 1932 (he even fought in the Bavarian-Germany army in WW1 as an Austrian citizen). The Anschluss in 1938 was approved by 99.73% of Austrians, they wanted the union and it was seen as the unification of the German people for a "Greater Germany", the "Little Germany" excluded Austria as opposed to the pan-German idea of a Greater Germany which includes Austria, Sudetenland, etc etc.

The only reason Austrians deny being Germans now is because of the anti-Hitler and anti-Nazi propaganda for decades, but no such thing as an "Austrian ethnicity" exists.

Whilst it is true that some Austrians are Germanised Slavs this is not speaking for the whole population or at all a % to be recognised, I have no idea why people say this. :picard1:

Corvus
07-14-2013, 11:53 AM
Austrians are Germans, there is no question about this. Germany is named after the people not the other way around, the only reason Austria and Austrians are not part of Germany is because during the unification of Germany the enemies of them Bismarck, Prussia and the Prussians did not want them to join up and unite it as for a couple of reasons 1) Austria is Catholic whereas Prussia is Protestant 2) the Austrian empire ruled over some places that were not German; thus the German nation-state would have had to include some non-German areas.

Vienna was the capital of the medieval Germany and Austria ruled Germany (Holy Roman Empire of the German nation) for centuries until the Austro-Prussian war in 1866 when Prussia excluded Austria from Germany. In the Austrian empire the German-speaking Austrians still considered themselves Germans first, there was no Austrian national identity. Immediately after WW1 the name of Austria was "The Republic of German-Austria" but the Treaty of Versailles forbid union between German-Austria and Germany and remained separate politically. The only reason Austria and Germany are separate is because of politics. Austrians are ethnic Germans and wanted union with Germany twice after it was formed as a nation-state. The Germans of Germany certainly had no problem with Adolf Hitler coming to power in Germany and as everyone knows he was Austrian-born but he always considered himself German and he was German he was an ethnic German born right on the Austro-German border in a town that was historically Bavarian, despite not becoming a German citizen until 1932 (he even fought in the Bavarian-Germany army in WW1 as an Austrian citizen). The Anschluss in 1938 was approved by 99.73% of Austrians, they wanted the union and it was seen as the unification of the German people for a "Greater Germany", the "Little Germany" excluded Austria as opposed to the pan-German idea of a Greater Germany which includes Austria, Sudetenland, etc etc.

The only reason Austrians deny being Germans now is because of the anti-Hitler and anti-Nazi propaganda for decades, but no such thing as an "Austrian ethnicity" exists.

Whilst it is true that some Austrians are Germanised Slavs this is not speaking for the whole population or at all a % to be recognised, I have no idea why people say this. :picard1:

Austrians and Germans are related thats true. But this is a controversial issue in Austria. I ask myself how can you as a Pole living in Britain judge :rolleyes:

Roys
07-14-2013, 11:55 AM
What i esentially see problematic with this map is if this haplogroup is German or Germanic how come some westernmost Polish area has relatively high frequency if that area was deported an populated by east Poles from Kresy.

This data is hypothetical like before these times. Not really trustworthy.

Polski
07-14-2013, 12:25 PM
Austrians and Germans are related thats true. But this is a controversial issue in Austria. I ask myself how can you as a Pole living in Britain judge :rolleyes:

The only reason it is controversial is like I explained, after the end of the war nobody wanted to be known as 'German' it was shameful, the Austrians created a "victim myth" which historians call a lie.

I never made the claim about Poles being British, it also has nothing to do with immigration.

It is about ethnicity, Austrians are ethnically German.

Wolf
07-18-2013, 10:48 AM
Do you think Austrians are Germans, just with a different political label, or are Austrians a separate ethnic group from the Germans?

Germans who are not living in Germany.



In addition, what you think about Swiss Germans?

The same.

Polski
07-18-2013, 09:42 PM
Many people think that Germans are named after Germany when its the other way around, it is irrelevant whether it is controversial as someone said about Austrians denying their German roots, the fact remains that Austria is ethnically German and Austrians are ethnic Germans but are not born German citizens. Hitler, a native Austrian citizen migrated to Germany and fought for his adopted country whilst still fighting for his own ethnic group - Germans - he demanded the union between the two countries and mentions it very sharply in his book and he was not the only one, pan-German as a nationalist ideology was very common until the mid 20th century by Austrians.

If Austria had excluded Prussia (Austro-Prussian/German war war 1866) and united Germany nobody would be questioning whether or not Austrians are Germans.

From 1440 to 1806 when it collapsed, Austria ruled medieval Germany - The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation.

Bloody
10-19-2013, 05:03 AM
Very, very different, IMO. I think of Austrians and Swiss as being largely Alpine, while proper Germans are Nordic. I see it more like "Germans = Dutch = Danes".

Disclaimer: This is all simply my opinion and has very little to no grounding in actual fact.

Austrians are virtually undishtingable from bavarians, on the other hand danes and specially dutch are noticeably different, even compared to northern germans.

Deidara
10-19-2013, 05:05 AM
Austrians are basically southern Germans.

Melonhead
10-19-2013, 05:06 AM
austrians are full of e1b norics who look like otto von habsburg.

bavarians look like rutger hauer.

justme
10-19-2013, 10:34 PM
I would say mostly Germanic; but, there were tons of other peoples in modern day Austria as well. The first peoples were probably Pannonian (who were "kind of" Greek). They then mixed with the Gaulish and became Celts. Long after, copious Germanic peoples came as did many Slavs (the former outnumbering the latter). I think it's fair to call Austrians "Germanic" but if I were Austrian I'd call myself, simply, Austrian.

Pannonians were never Greek but Celtic-Illyrians

justme
10-19-2013, 10:57 PM
I laugh at people here saying that Austrians are Germanised Slavs... Lol! When 1. Germans were in Austria long before Slavs 2. Austrians look nothing like Slavs.

American_Hispanist
10-19-2013, 11:02 PM
Austrians+Swiss germans=alpine germans, with a different name, who are very related to Bavarians, especially the former.

Melonhead
10-19-2013, 11:05 PM
Pannonians were never Greek but Celtic-Illyrians

Yeah it's more like the greeks were celt-illyrian influenced than other way around.

Sehnsucht
10-19-2013, 11:06 PM
Austrians are Germans by blood and genetic heritage as well as language. They are only seperated by geographical political boundaries. I know there are probably some Austrians that object to being called German but Austrians are Germans who are just part of a country that never became part of Germany. The reason we don't recognize Austrian as a language or an ethnic group is because they are ethnic Germans who speak German

Melonhead
10-19-2013, 11:07 PM
Austrians+Swiss germans=alpine germans, with a different name, who are very related to Bavarians, especially the former.

The dinaric part in austria has nothing to do with switzerland. Alpinids and dirarics look a little alike but are completely unrelated. One is probaby ancient egyptian or hittite remnants (dinaric) the other is similar to ancient etruscans.

justme
10-19-2013, 11:13 PM
The dinaric part in austria has nothing to do with switzerland. Alpinids and dirarics look a little alike but are completely unrelated. One is probaby ancient egyptian or hittite remnants (dinaric) the other is similar to ancient etruscans.

Anyways.. Austrians are Germans... Like it or not... And Slavs seriously stop dreaming yourselves...with this propaganda that Austrians are Germanised Slavs.. Lol! That's funny cause they look nothing like Slavs... Yeah they have a lot of Dinarid influences... But Dinarid could mean on Slavs.. Slavicized Illyrians.. Austrians are Germans would might have some Noricum ancient DNA and Pannonian(Celtic-Illyrian)
Either way Austrians are genetically linguistically and culturally German.

blogen
10-19-2013, 11:17 PM
Anyways.. Austrians are Germans... Like it or not... And Slavs seriously stop dreaming yourselves...with this propaganda that Austrians are Germanised Slavs.. Lol! That's funny cause they look nothing like Slavs... Yeah they have a lot of Dinarid influences... But Dinarid could mean on Slavs.. Slavicized Illyrians.. Austrians are Germans would might have some Noricum ancient DNA and Pannonian(Celtic-Illyrian)
Either way Austrians are genetically linguistically and culturally German.

There are few Dinarid Polishs, but basically, if a South Slav is Dinarid, then his ancestors were Slavicized Illyrians (proto-Albanian).

Melonhead
10-19-2013, 11:18 PM
Anyways.. Austrians are Germans... Like it or not... And Slavs seriously stop dreaming yourselves...with this propaganda that Austrians are Germanised Slavs.. Lol! That's funny cause they look nothing like Slavs... Yeah they have a lot of Dinarid influences... But Dinarid could mean on Slavs.. Slavicized Illyrians.. Austrians are Germans would might have some Noricum ancient DNA and Pannonian(Celtic-Illyrian)
Either way Austrians are genetically linguistically and culturally German.

South austrians are the dinaricized ones. They are nothing to do with germans and nothing to do with slavs. This admixture, like I already said, comes from more ancient time and has been there a while. It's shared between them and illyrians but it doesn't come directly from either one. It's its own separate component nothing to do with anything but itself!

The rest of austria is basically germans, yes, but nothing much to do with bavaria and less to do with switzerland.

justme
10-19-2013, 11:24 PM
South austrians are the dinaricized ones. They are nothing to do with germans and nothing to do with slavs. This admixture, like I already said, comes from more ancient time and has been there a while. It's shared between them and illyrians but it doesn't come directly from either one. It's its own separate component nothing to do with anything but itself!

The rest of austria is basically germans, yes, but nothing much to do with bavaria and less to do with switzerland.

I know that.. Lol.. But still Austrians cannot be Germanised Slavs... More like some Poles are Slavicized Germans and not the other way round...

justme
10-19-2013, 11:31 PM
There are few Dinarid Polishs, but basically, if a South Slav is Dinarid, then his ancestors were Slavicized Illyrians (proto-Albanian). Austrians are Germans.. Illyrians were only in Austria for a very short time... they Austrians are German..

Sizzo
10-19-2013, 11:35 PM
Austrians = Bavarians. So-called Germans are not the same thing from Bozen to Kiel.

OldWayGuy
10-19-2013, 11:42 PM
Austrians are darker no ?

Melonhead
10-19-2013, 11:43 PM
Austrians are darker no ?

yep

Melonhead
10-19-2013, 11:48 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/RutgerHauer_OdFest.jpg/220px-RutgerHauer_OdFest.jpg

Here is Rutger hauer. He is bavarian, and he's like the archetype of bavarian. He is not even slightly dinarized. He is an alpinized (NAMED FOR ALPINE MOUNTAINS) nordid.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Otto_Habsburg_001.jpg/220px-Otto_Habsburg_001.jpg

Here's otto von hapsburg. He is nowhere near alpine mountains, he is instead heavily dinaricized, and 0% alpinized or nordid. About as pure dinaric as it gets. He is actually an eastern type not west euro type at all. He'd fit better in turkey or ancient egypt which is where this look comes out of. He's got no neanderthal or CM features at all.

Similar head shape = einstein, who doesn't take after local swiss whatsoever. Einstein is not an alpinid.

Austria is nothing to do with switzerland or bavaria.

Afonso de Albuquerque
10-20-2013, 12:02 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/RutgerHauer_OdFest.jpg/220px-RutgerHauer_OdFest.jpg

Here is Rutger hauer. He is bavarian, and he's like the archetype of bavarian. He is not even slightly dinarized. He is an alpinized (NAMED FOR ALPINE MOUNTAINS) nordid.


Rutger Hauer is dutch.

Corvus
10-20-2013, 10:55 AM
I laugh at people here saying that Austrians are Germanised Slavs... Lol! When 1. Germans were in Austria long before Slavs 2. Austrians look nothing like Slavs.

Austria has significant Slavic heritage, if you like it or not. Esp. in Eastern Austria many people have Czech, Slovak or Slovenian names and roots. Some even look distinctivly Slavic. But that does not make them less German. But don`t claim things you have no idea of.


South austrians are the dinaricized ones. They are nothing to do with germans and nothing to do with slavs. This admixture, like I already said, comes from more ancient time and has been there a while. It's shared between them and illyrians but it doesn't come directly from either one. It's its own separate component nothing to do with anything but itself!

The rest of austria is basically germans, yes, but nothing much to do with bavaria and less to do with switzerland.

What is Southern Austria. A term like this does not exist. There is only Eastern and Western Austria. A difference of phenotypes is also a myth. Austrians are South Germans basically and diverse, but there are no remarkable regional diversities.

justme
10-20-2013, 11:00 AM
Austria has significant Slavic heritage, if you like it or not. Esp. in Eastern Austria many people have Czech, Slovak or Slovenian names and roots. Some even look distinctivly Slavic. But that does not make them less German. But don`t claim things you have no idea of.



What is Southern Austria. A term like this does not exist. There is only Eastern and Western Austria. A difference of phenotypes is also a myth. Austrians are South Germans basically and diverse, but there are no remarkable regional diversities.

Actually it's the opposite way round... It's the Czech and Slovaks who are Slavicised Germans... Hence the reason why they look closer to Germany and not to Russia or Belarus... Anyways those Slavic speakers in Austria are mainly immagrants, Germans were in Austria long before Slavs... So the opposite is true to what your saying..

Melonhead
10-20-2013, 11:03 AM
South austrians are different, there's a big cluster of e1b y-dna there which corresponds to noric/dinaric people.

Rudel
10-20-2013, 11:09 AM
I see Austrians as a regional variation of Germans, much like Prussians, Alsatians, Saxons, etc.

Alsatians
C'mon now, we've already been at war more than enough over that.

Anyway, Austrians might be German by German criteria. They have that retarded tribal way of considering that every thing Germanic is part of them.

Corvus
10-20-2013, 11:09 AM
I laugh at people here saying that Austrians are Germanised Slavs... Lol! When 1. Germans were in Austria long before Slavs 2. Austrians look nothing like Slavs.


Actually it's the opposite way round... It's the Czech and Slovaks who are Slavicised Germans... Hence the reason why they look closer to Germany and not to Russia or Belarus... Anyways those Slavic speakers in Austria are mainly immagrants, Germans were in Austria long before Slavs... So the opposite is true to what your saying..

Slavic settlement of the Eastern Alps region was a historic process that took place between the 6th and 9th century AD, having culminated in the final quarter of the 6th century. During this period, the Eastern Alps, comprising the area of modern Slovenia and large parts of modern Austria (Carinthia, Styria, East Tyrol, Lower Austria and parts of Upper Austria) were settled by Slavic tribes. This settlement meant the beginning of the ethnogenesis of the Slovene people.

The first phase of Slavic settlement in the Eastern Alps region is dated around the year 550 and originated in the area of modern Moravia (i.e., the West Slavic speaking branch).[5] From there, Slavic peoples moved southward into the territory of the former Roman province of Noricum (modern Upper and Lower Austria regions). Subsequently, they progressed along the valleys of Alpine rivers towards the Karavanke range and towards the settlement of Poetovio (modern Ptuj), where the decline of the local diocese is recorded before 577.
Slavic tribes mid 7th century AD. Carantanians, the ancestors of modern Slovenes, are shown in the East Alpine area.

The second phase of Slavic settlement came from the south and took place after the retreat of Lombards into Northern Italy in 568. The Lombards contracted to cede the relinquished territory to their new allies, the Avars, who at that time were the overlords of Slavs. Avars first appeared in Europe around 560 when they reached lower Danube. In 567 the Avars and Lombards jointly defeated the Gepids. After the Lombards moved to Italy in 568, the Avars became the nominal rulers of both the Pannonian plain (which they had conquered by 582) and the adjacent Eastern Alps region. The Slavic-Avar progress towards the Eastern Alps is traceable on the basis of synodal records of the Aquileian metropolitan church which speak of the decline of ancient dioceses (Emona, Celeia, Poetovio, Aguntum, Teurnia, Virunum, Scarabantia) in the respective area.In 588 the Slavs reached the area of the Upper Sava River and in 591 they arrived to the Upper Drava region where they soon fought with the Bavarians who were led by king Tassilo I. In 592 the Bavarians won, but in 595 the Slavic-Avar army gained victory and thus consolidated the boundary between the Frankish and Avar territories. Between 599-600 the Slavs pushed through Istria and the Karst region towards Italy.

And thats not all. Lets not forget the implications of the Austrian Hungarian empire:

Between 1851 and 1910, the quota of Czechs in Vienna increased approximately tenfold. By 1910, one out of five residents was of Czech origin, and immigration kept increasing. Thus a development toward a bilingual Lower Austria and a bilingual capital, Vienna, was certainly possible, but only if the immigrants remained Czech rather than assimilate. In Mein Kampf Hitler mentions this issue, which was a consistently hot topic during his youth in Vienna : Purely German towns , indirectly through government officialdom, were slowly but steadily pushed into the mixed- language danger zones. Even in Lower Austria this process began to make increasingly rapid progress, and many Czechs considered Vienna their largest city.

If we count according Vienna's population's origins, we arrive at a astonishing picture. According to this method, slightly less than five hundred thousand of Vienna's two million people were from the Bohemian countries. If we include the parent generation, this number almost doubles, with the quota of Czechs being larger than that of the Germans.! Yet it would be a mistake to draw a conclusion from the immigration figures of Czechs to the Czech population quota. For assimilation often took place so quickly that the immigrants were already "Germanized" after just a few years.

The Czechs came to Vienna as industrial workers, as maids, cooks, nannies, cobblers, tailors, and musicians. Because many of them lived with their employers, they were dispersed over all the districts and did not live together in one concentrated area, such as the Viennese Jews did in Leopoldstadt. This furthered assimilation.

justme
10-20-2013, 11:14 AM
South austrians are different, there's a big cluster of e1b y-dna there which corresponds to noric/dinaric people.

Actually... People also think e1b y-DNA is common in Kosovo and Greece.. But Kosovan Albanians look nothing like Greeks at all... So I don't think it has anything to do with that..

Valhallan
12-13-2013, 04:51 PM
Austria has significant Slavic heritage, if you like it or not. Esp. in Eastern Austria many people have Czech, Slovak or Slovenian names and roots. Some even look distinctivly Slavic. But that does not make them less German. But don`t claim things you have no idea of.



What is Southern Austria. A term like this does not exist. There is only Eastern and Western Austria. A difference of phenotypes is also a myth. Austrians are South Germans basically and diverse, but there are no remarkable regional diversities.

Thats puzzling because I was under the impression Czech were the more Germanized slavs. I find many with German-centric surnames and many who have more of a German look than they do Slavic. Not to mention many of them cluster with Germans on much of the mappings that were posted on here.

OT: Austrians look practically indistinquishable from Bavarians to me. I honestly cannot tell the difference.

Corvus
12-13-2013, 04:54 PM
Thats puzzling because I was under the impression Czech were the more Germanized slavs. I find many with German-centric surnames and many who have more of a German look than they do Slavic. Not to mention many of them cluster with Germans on much of the mappings that were posted on here.

OT: Austrians look practically indistinquishable from Bavarians to me. I honestly cannot tell the difference.

I agree, Czechs are definitly the most Germanic influenced Slavs, anyway some Eastern Austrians look distinctivly Slavic.
They cannot be told apart from Czechs or Slovaks or even Poles
Not the Western ones though.

blogen
12-13-2013, 04:57 PM
I agree, Czechs are definitly the most Germanic influenced Slavs, anyway some Eastern Austrians look distinctivly Slavic.
They cannot be told apart from Czechs or Slovaks or even Poles
Not the Western ones though.

And the Poles. Great part of the Poles are Slavicized German from the age of the Slavonic migration.

Corvus
12-13-2013, 04:59 PM
And the Poles. Great part of the Poles are Slavicized German from the age of the Slavonic migration.

There has been reciprocal exchange of genes. Austrian Hungarian monarchy has also played a huge part.
Vienna and surrounding area is a melting pot of Germans and Eastern Europeans since that period

ficuscarica
12-13-2013, 05:00 PM
yes
/close thread

Trebal
12-13-2013, 09:08 PM
How about Bavarians, they are technically Germans, but probably more similar to Austrians than North Germans.

Bavarians are actually quite Nordid. Austrians are like Germans mixed with Italians and Swiss-Germans are like Germans mixed with French.

blogen
12-13-2013, 09:13 PM
Bavarians are actually quite Nordid. Austrians are like Germans mixed with Italians and Swiss-Germans are like Germans mixed with French.

The Austrians did not mix with the Italians but with Latins of the Alps and Noricum! Ant huge part of the Austrians are Germanized Carantanian and Moravian Slav.

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/5961/b1l2.gif
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/6889/vmz.gif

Liac
12-13-2013, 09:13 PM
And the Poles. Great part of the Poles are Slavicized German from the age of the Slavonic migration.

Wrong, eastern Germans are rather Germanized Slavs.

blogen
12-13-2013, 09:20 PM
Wrong, eastern Germans are rather Germanized Slavs.

No, not wrong. There is a racial connection between the Gothic and Slavonic population in the territory of present Poland. When the early Slavs conquered this land, the local German population assimilated to the Slavs.

Trebal
12-13-2013, 09:31 PM
Wrong, eastern Germans are rather Germanized Slavs.

Germans and Poles are genetically closer to each other than Serbs and Poles, yes.

But saying East Germans are germanized Slavs or Poles is nonsense. East Germans are Germans.

Liac
12-13-2013, 09:32 PM
No, not wrong. There is a racial connection between the Gothic and Slavonic population in the territory of present Poland. When the early Slavs conquered this land, the local German population assimilated to the Slavs.

Reality is that today nobody cares much about meta-ethnicity. Poles are Poles while Germans are Germans. I never saw Pole that looks stereotypically Germanic while saw many Germans and Austrians that I'd easily mistake for Slavs. Same is with modern Hungarians, they're undeniable biologically closer to Slavs than their ancient mongoloid ancestors. Then again it doesn't matter at all because Germans consider Poles as sub-humans same as Hungarians consider Slavs.

Austo
12-13-2013, 09:36 PM
C'mon now, we've already been at war more than enough over that.

Anyway, Austrians might be German by German criteria. They have that retarded tribal way of considering that every thing Germanic is part of them.

Interesting. First time i heard that, but im sure a french knows better.

Baluarte
12-13-2013, 09:43 PM
C'mon now, we've already been at war more than enough over that.

Anyway, Austrians might be German by German criteria. They have that retarded tribal way of considering that every thing Germanic is part of them.

Pretty much. I've even had the unfortunate chance of meeting German volkists that argue that Netherlands should also be part of the epic Grossdeutschland because their language is after all quite similar and their genetics are quite close. :lol: Pan Germanism seems to be quite alive on the web. I'm grateful at least Pan Slavism seems to be, for the most part, left alone in the graveyard.

blogen
12-13-2013, 09:47 PM
Reality is that today nobody cares much about meta-ethnicity. Poles are Poles while Germans are Germans. I never saw Pole that looks stereotypically Germanic while saw many Germans and Austrians that I'd easily mistake for Slavs.

Maybe you! (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?41870-Austrians-Germans&p=2191530&viewfull=1#post2191530) :)


Same is with modern Hungarians, they're undeniable biologically closer to Slavs than their ancient mongoloid ancestors.

The Hungarians never had Mongoloid ancestors (Mongoloid Hungarians)! The Ugric peoples were basically Cromagnoids, the Hungarians in the Asian homeland were Cromagnoids and Turanids (Cromagnoid+Mongoloid), the nomad Hungarians in the European steppe and in the Carpathian basin also with Turanid dominance. The Mongoloid element to the ancient Hungarian Turanids came from the post-Andronovo/proto-Scyhtian Iranian tribes.


Then again it doesn't matter at all because Germans consider Poles as sub-humans same as Hungarians consider Slavs.

Since when? We have Slav friends and brothers in the region only (Poles, Croatians, Slovenes).

Szegedist
12-13-2013, 09:49 PM
I think its for Austrians to decide, nobody else.

Trebal
12-13-2013, 09:57 PM
The Austrians did not mix with the Italians but with Latins of the Alps and Noricum! Ant huge part of the Austrians are Germanized Carantanian and Moravian Slav.

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/5961/b1l2.gif
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/6889/vmz.gif

I know that and it was just roughly said. Austria is heavily mixed but predominantly Austrians are like Germans mixed with Southern Europeans, culturally rather like Germans and optically rather like Southern Europeans. There is actually nothing Slavic about them. Austrians are very Alpinid and Mediterranid and as a whole look more western than most Germans, especially compared to North, Central and East Germans. Maybe some few Austrians look like Czechs or Slovenes but this just comes from their pronounced Alpinid tendencies.

Graham
12-13-2013, 09:58 PM
Germanic Speaking Hungarians. Or is it the other way round? :P

Zaycev
12-13-2013, 10:00 PM
You're right, and I only view them as technically being Germans. I don't see them as "proper" Germans. Proper Germans have to look like me.

I'll probably take so much flak for this but, rest assured all swarthy Germans, my opinion on this matter is based purely on my own quirky view and has no basis in fact ;)

Shut up please. I'm getting headache by your racialscum shit theories. Who the fuck are you to tell someone how he shoudl look to be german?
Austrians are a regional german variation. Everyone with a bit of History knowledge knows, that austrian culture is very similiar or nearly the same to german culture.

Zaycev
12-13-2013, 10:09 PM
The people here don't want to see themselves as "Germans" because of the arrogant behaviour by (mostly northern) german people. The term "Piefke" or "drecks Bonzenpiefke" as many of my friends call them are not a rarity. I understand this dislike as someone who has lived sometime in a german speaking country. Austrian people are by far not that close-minded like german people. There are many other reasons however why austrians don't want to be called "german". The powerful influence of the old Habsburg (Deutscher Dualismus) family is one of that reasons.

Baluarte
12-13-2013, 10:18 PM
I found this answer in Quora.com from a German girl called "Judith Meyer, Well-traveled native German"
This is her profile:
http://www.quora.com/Judith-Meyer

Linking the answer since I find it balanced and accurate judging from my own impressions of Austrians versus Germans (North of the Mainz of course, since Bavarians and Austrians are quite close as I noted going from Innsbruck to Munich).


Economically, people in both countries are about equally well-off, though Germany's economy is much larger of course since the population is also much larger. Both countries also have low Gini coefficients, meaning that there is not a huge gap between the rich and the poor. Unemployment level is also comparable.

There is a difference in education, with German adults having on average 2 years more schooling than Austrians. This may partly explain why you are more likely to encounter racism/xenophobia in Austria - but it's also true what Fred Landis said, that the country didn't undergo the same re-education program, so that you can still find people who see nothing wrong with having an old NSDAP poster - and populist Haider did quite well some years back.

Austria is generally more conservative and more religious than Germany, kind of like Bavaria. The people are more similar to Bavarians as well, warmer than the typical Northern German, if more cliquish (local-oriented). Austrians tend to plan their days less rigorously, so you can call them on short notice to do something fun. The flip side is that they are also more likely to be late compared to Northern Germans who see it as a deadly sin. These are not so much differences between Germany and Austria, really differences between north and south

What's curious though, is that the posters above me had said that Austrians and South Germans have Latin admixture amongst others, which might to some extent why they're much more likeable :D

Zaycev
12-14-2013, 12:49 AM
"Close minded" was maybe a wrong term I used to describe it. Austrians can be also very close-mined too (I've witnessed it on my own behalf, since I have foreign - slavic (Slawisches) blood... however, I don't know why but younger generations in Austria are much more... how should I say it... "chilled-out" than most younger people from Germany.

I don't find the perfect word to describe the difference between them both. Judith Meyer is certainly correct with her description. Austrians are just more casual than Germans by attitude, that's it.

Trebal
12-14-2013, 01:00 AM
"Close minded" was maybe a wrong term I used to describe it. Austrians can be also very close-mined too (I've witnessed it on my own behalf, since I have foreign - slavic (Slawisches) blood... however, I don't know why but younger generations in Austria are much more... how should I say it... "chilled-out" than most younger people from Germany.

I don't find the perfect word to describe the difference between them both. Judith Meyer is certainly correct with her description. Austrians are just more casual than Germans by attitude, that's it.

Germans and Austrians both are closer related to Slavs than Bulgarians. You are just like Turks and Greeks.

Wolf
12-15-2013, 11:28 AM
And huge part of the Austrians are Germanized Carantanian and Moravian Slavs.

And they were slavized Celts?

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum



I've even had the unfortunate chance of meeting German volkists that argue that Netherlands should also be part of the epic Grossdeutschland because their language is after all quite similar and their genetics are quite close. :lol:

If Occitans can be French, Catalans can be Spaniards and Sicilians can be Italians, why can't Dutch be Germans?



Pan Germanism seems to be quite alive on the web. I'm grateful at least Pan Slavism seems to be, for the most part, left alone in the graveyard.

What do understand by Pan-Germanism?

blogen
12-15-2013, 11:36 AM
And they were slavized Celts?
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum

More than Slavs and Slavicized Latins and some Latin were Latinized Celt. Mostly in Carantania. The Danube valley Latin population extint at the time of the Migration period.

Corvus
12-15-2013, 11:38 AM
The people here don't want to see themselves as "Germans" because of the arrogant behaviour by (mostly northern) german people. The term "Piefke" or "drecks Bonzenpiefke" as many of my friends call them are not a rarity. I understand this dislike as someone who has lived sometime in a german speaking country. Austrian people are by far not that close-minded like german people. There are many other reasons however why austrians don't want to be called "german". The powerful influence of the old Habsburg (Deutscher Dualismus) family is one of that reasons.

There is no common aversion against Germans in Austria. At least 50% of Austrians perceive themselves as German.
These peroratory terms for Germans are most common in Vienna where you live but Vienna does not represent Austria.
Its a micro entity of their own. A cultural melting pot with many people who have severe idenitity problems. Are they more Slavic like their ancestors or pure German. They sit between the chairs metaphorically spoken. That also explains their grumpy mood partially, which Viennese are famous for.

Zaycev
12-15-2013, 11:52 AM
There is no common aversion against Germans in Austria. At least 50% of Austrians perceive themselves as German.
These peroratory terms for Germans are most common in Vienna where you live but Vienna does not represent Austria.
Its a micro entity of their own. A cultural melting pot with many people who have severe idenitity problems. Are they more Slavic like their ancestors or pure German. They sit between the chairs metaphorically spoken. That also explains their grumpy mood partially, which Viennese are famous for.


You can't be more wrong than what you're saying. I lived in Bavaria and in Salzburg in my life and i can assure you, that most tyrolians and people from Salzburg area (the east of Austria regard themselves as "austrian" anyway, as you said) don't want to be called german. My austrian father, who is from Salzburg and who has roots in Bavaria doesn't regard himself as German. He says he's austrian and is very allergic if people tell him he's german. I made that experience with many people here. Including my friends.

Do you live or have you lived in southern german speaking areas like Switzerland, Austria or Bavaria? Otherwise you wouldn't make that statement ("Atleast 50 % of austrians perceive themselves german")

Not even 20 % of Austrians perceive themselves as german, dude.

Zaycev
12-15-2013, 11:54 AM
Germans and Austrians both are closer related to Slavs than Bulgarians. You are just like Turks and Greeks.

What's the use of that statement you moron?

Corvus
12-15-2013, 12:02 PM
You can't be more wrong than what you're saying. I lived in Bavaria and in Salzburg in my life and i can assure you, that most tyrolians and people from Salzburg area (the east of Austria regard themselves as "austrian" anyway, as you said) don't want to be called german. My austrian father, who is from Salzburg and who has roots in Bavaria doesn't regard himself as German. He says he's austrian and is very allergic if people tell him he's german. I made that experience with many people here. Including my friends.

Do you live or have you lived in southern german speaking areas like Switzerland, Austria or Bavaria? Otherwise you wouldn't make that statement ("Atleast 50 % of austrians perceive themselves german")

Not even 20 % of Austrians perceive themselves as german, dude.

However they view themselves, Austria are always regarded as Germans in other countries. This forum reflects it pretty well but also regular people anywhere in Europe do not draw a distinction between them. From Russia to Italy and anywhere else.
Austria is the Southern extension of Germany and thats how it is supposed to be.

I have posted this article before but I can do it again:

http://english.pravda.ru/world/europe/27-09-2011/119165-austria-0/

Zaycev
12-15-2013, 12:09 PM
Mostly people from older generations maybe view themselve as german if you're talking about ethnical standards, but that certainly doesn't apply to the younger generations.
I see Austrians as german myself too, hence why I wrote "german" in my ethnicity, don't worry. I'm only trying to state the facts of how most austrians view themselves, not that austrians don't have to do anything with germans are purely "slavicized" (which is utter nonsense and western slavic propaganda bullshit)

Corvus
12-15-2013, 12:14 PM
Mostly people from older generations maybe view themselve as german if you're talking about ethnical standards, but that certainly doesn't apply to the younger generations.
I see Austrians as german myself too, hence why I wrote "german" in my ethnicity, don't worry. I'm only trying to state the facts of how most austrians view themselves, not that austrians don't have to do anything with germans are purely "slavicized" (which is utter nonsense and western slavic propaganda bullshit)

Indeed, this conclusion from the Pravda article sums it up pretty well:

Today, Austria is an established country where the bulk of the population feels that they are Austrians. Some of them believe they are rooted in this land, and are separate from the immigrants from Asia and Africa. Yet, many still contrast themselves, the German-speaking people, to the Slavs. Polls show that the Austrians' attitude towards the Czechs or Slovenes leaves much to be desired. For some (mainly people of mixed origin) the term "Austrian" is opposed to the concept of "German German"

noricum
12-15-2013, 01:05 PM
Not even 20 % of Austrians perceive themselves as german, dude.

Actually it's arround 5-7% of Austrians who see themself as Germans, in the early 60ies still about 55% thought that way. Yet a majorrity will agree that Bavarians are basically the same as Austrians. Doesn't make much sense to you? To me neither. Maybe a Willensnation in progress.

Latin influence as such is very minor, yet early settlement in the Alpine area was undertaken by genetically southern european people, with Ötzi beeing the best example and their influence can be seen in the physical appearance of some Austrians still today.

Here is a nice picture of the phsical diversity in Austria. They all have "normal" German names and come from the same valley! Morocco-Iceland;)

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/roapazeinli/wu4_zps8f55f60e.jpg (http://s650.photobucket.com/user/roapazeinli/media/wu4_zps8f55f60e.jpg.html)

I also agree that Austrians are more relaxed than Germans on average. Or are in all ways more average european, what also is reflected in the picture above to some degree imo.

rashka
12-15-2013, 01:12 PM
Austrians are a blend of different people who adopted the German language.

noricum
12-15-2013, 01:19 PM
Austrians are a blend of different people who adopted the German language.

Almost any european Nation is a mix of different groups who changed their old identity/language in favour of the new, now predominant, culture of their Nation.

blogen
12-15-2013, 01:33 PM
Austrians are a blend of different people who adopted the German language.

The Western Austrians origin from Germanic invaders and Roman survivors, the Northeastern Austrians mostly origin from Bavarian settlers+assimilated Moravians, the Southeastern Austrians origin from Bavarian settlers+assimilated Carantanian Slavs. Only the population of Vienna is multiethnic origin.

Szegedist
12-15-2013, 01:42 PM
Almost any european Nation is a mix of different groups who changed their old identity/language in favour of the new, now predominant, culture of their Nation.

Dont shatter he dreams of the pure Slavic Serbian race.

Hevo
12-15-2013, 01:58 PM
If Occitans can be French, Catalans can be Spaniards and Sicilians can be Italians, why can't Dutch be Germans?



Generally people from the North/Western Netherlands(Holland/Zeeland/Friesland) are closer to English and Danish people than to Germans. I have seen some Dutch samples that are distant from Germans. (Especially Western) Dutch people are not a bunch of Germans in denial as you claim.

Peikko
12-15-2013, 02:02 PM
I think the "non-Germanicness" of Austrians is overemphasized in these forums.

solaris
12-15-2013, 02:04 PM
german/slavic/celtic with a habsburg-balkan blend.

Szegedist
12-15-2013, 02:07 PM
german/slavic/celtic with a habsburg-balkan blend.

Habsburgs were a Family, the majority of Austrians are not descended from them.

Baluarte
12-15-2013, 02:34 PM
Austrians are a blend of different people who adopted the German language.

Yes, but remember but we've said before. Language is what determines "Germanness" apparently. At least following Pan Germanist logic.

Baluarte
12-15-2013, 02:37 PM
Generally people from the North/Western Netherlands(Holland/Zeeland/Friesland) are closer to English and Danish people than to Germans. I have seen some Dutch samples that are distant from Germans. (Especially Western) Dutch people are not a bunch of Germans in denial as you claim.

They've already equated people from Aachen to people from Koenigsberg and to people from Vienna, to Danube Germans to Volga Germans. If there's a new Hitler like figure obsessed with the Grossdeutschland (even if it has no basis in political history WHATSOEVER) I wouldn't be surprised if they try to annex Netherlands, and maybe even Flanders by force, arguing the terrible and imperative NEED to have all the "German" people under one State :lol:

Szegedist
12-15-2013, 02:39 PM
Yes, but remember but we've said before. Language is what determines "Germanness" apparently. At least following Pan Germanist logic.

Actually, pan-Slavism is determined mostly by language, while pan-germanism is mostly by race.
But as with all pan-ideologies, they invent more BS to justify exceptions.

I heard one Nordicist claim that South Germans are swarthy Alpinids who due to mixing, inherited a Nordic Soul, thus they are in reality Nordic.

Peikko
12-15-2013, 02:41 PM
Actually, pan-Slavism is determined mostly by language, while pan-germanism is mostly by race.
But as with all pan-ideologies, they invent more BS to justify exceptions.

I heard one Nordicist claim that South Germans are swarthy Alpinids who due to mixing, inherited a Nordic Soul, thus they are in reality Nordic.
Germano-centrists and Slavo-centrists both claim to be the tr00 Nordics, lol.

Baluarte
12-15-2013, 02:43 PM
Actually, pan-Slavism is determined mostly by language, while pan-germanism is mostly by race.


Not quite, if we go by "racial" terms, there should be unity in ancestry and phenotypes. On the contrary, people in Northwestern Germany are quite similar to the Dutch, while East Austrians are Alpinoid with Slavic and Latin input, people from old Koenigsberg look Baltic (quite similar to Lithuanians), and finally Danube and Volga Germans have input from the native populations of the lands they settled.

Even Hitler admitted it in Mein Kampf, Germanization prior to the eugenic brutality of the NSDAP simply involved giving conquered people the German language, and maybe the German law. Which is why there is no religious, artistic, cultural or political united history in what people call "Germans".

Szegedist
12-15-2013, 02:47 PM
Baluarte, the majority of pan-Germanisits I dealt with are racially oriented, and for example, if there is a Blonde blue eyed Nordic Pole, they say he is Polified German.

But when you point out non Nordic Germans, they make up BS.

The point is, Germano centrists mix and match linguistics, race, culture and history, depending when it suits them. As is the same with all -centrists.

Szegedist
12-15-2013, 02:48 PM
Germano-centrists and Slavo-centrists both claim to be the tr00 Nordics, lol.

When in fact tr00 Nordics are Finnics.

Peikko
12-15-2013, 02:49 PM
When in fact tr00 Nordics are Finnics.

Exactly :P

Baluarte
12-15-2013, 02:50 PM
Baluarte, the majority of pan-Germanisits I dealt with are racially oriented, and for example, if there is a Blonde blue eyed Nordic Pole, they say he is Polified German.

But when you point out non Nordic Germans, they make up BS.

The point is, Germano centrists mix and match linguistics, race, culture and history, depending when it suits them. As is the same with all -centrists.

Agreed. And that's on the fortunate occasions when there are no references to the holy Hyperborean race :laugh:
Austrians are Austrians, period.

Baluarte
12-15-2013, 02:51 PM
Exactly :P

Only tr00 nordics are Norwegians from Svalbard. :cool:

Szegedist
12-15-2013, 02:58 PM
Agreed. And that's on the fortunate occasions when there are no references to the holy Hyperborean race :laugh:
Austrians are Austrians, period.

How I am glad that my people were united in the 9th century, and not 19th century, so we don't have to deal with this regionalism "who is what" and "are we this or are we that" BS. :cool:

Baluarte
12-15-2013, 03:02 PM
How I am glad that my people were united in the 9th century, and not 19th century, so we don't have to deal with this regionalism "who is what" and "are we this or are we that" BS. :cool:

The plight of the conquerors. After a few generations of enjoying the fruits of their victory, specially servile native girls ;), their identity starts to be the source of conflict.
To some extent Ancient civilizations were much more mature than what most nationalist are today, no ethnic supremacism and acceptance as long as you serve the State and the civilization it represents :D

noricum
12-15-2013, 03:53 PM
How I am glad that my people were united in the 9th century, and not 19th century, so we don't have to deal with this regionalism "who is what" and "are we this or are we that" BS. :cool:

Ethnic homogenity is the merrit for loosing 2/3 of your territory, and 1/2 of your total population or 1/3 of your ethnic-Hungarian population after WW1. Congrats! :thumb001:

Szegedist
12-15-2013, 03:55 PM
Ethnic homogenity is the merrit for loosing 2/3 of your territory, and 1/2 of your total population or 1/3 of your ethnic-Hungarian population after WW1. Congrats! :thumb001:

Not just that, but also:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?102213-Most-tolerant-progressive-country-in-Europe

Corvus
12-15-2013, 06:39 PM
Austrians are a blend of different people who adopted the German language.

This applies to any population. Anyway physically and also genetically its propably next to Hungary the most diverse country in Europe, which is unsurprising given the fact that is located in the Center of Europe and has been a transit route of so many tribes since stone age and the neolithic revolution, in earlier histroy due to the K.u.K. monarchy.
Latin influence is minor though, only in Tyroleans to a certain degree. Slavic influence is quite significant in some regions

Trebal
12-15-2013, 09:19 PM
Actually it's arround 5-7% of Austrians who see themself as Germans, in the early 60ies still about 55% thought that way. Yet a majorrity will agree that Bavarians are basically the same as Austrians. Doesn't make much sense to you? To me neither. Maybe a Willensnation in progress.

Latin influence as such is very minor, yet early settlement in the Alpine area was undertaken by genetically southern european people, with Ötzi beeing the best example and their influence can be seen in the physical appearance of some Austrians still today.

Here is a nice picture of the phsical diversity in Austria. They all have "normal" German names and come from the same valley! Morocco-Iceland;)

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/roapazeinli/wu4_zps8f55f60e.jpg (http://s650.photobucket.com/user/roapazeinli/media/wu4_zps8f55f60e.jpg.html)

I also agree that Austrians are more relaxed than Germans on average. Or are in all ways more average european, what also is reflected in the picture above to some degree imo.

Only the culture makes Bavarians and Austrians seem similar. Bavarians and Austrians look very different because Bavarians look far better than Austrians. A lot of German beauties come from Bavaria while I have never seen one good looking Austrian woman, they're all just ugly and boring. I can't even get why Austrians are so much anti-german. Germans are better in every issue and Austria is actually only a cheap copy of Bavaria.

Baluarte
12-15-2013, 09:21 PM
Only the culture makes Bavarians and Austrians seem similar. Bavarians and Austrians look very different because Bavarians look far better than Austrians. A lot of German beauties come from Bavaria while I have never seen one good looking Austrian woman, they're all just ugly and boring. I can't even get why Austrians are so much anti-german. Germans are better in every issue and Austria is actually only a cheap copy of Bavaria.

Didn't notice that much of a difference between people in Innsbruck and Munich.

Geminus
12-15-2013, 10:14 PM
Only the culture makes Bavarians and Austrians seem similar. Bavarians and Austrians look very different because Bavarians look far better than Austrians. A lot of German beauties come from Bavaria while I have never seen one good looking Austrian woman, they're all just ugly and boring. I can't even get why Austrians are so much anti-german. Germans are better in every issue and Austria is actually only a cheap copy of Bavaria.

Just for your information: Austria was founded by Bavarian settlers. Austrians speak a Bavarian dialect of German. Vienna was the capital of Germany for hundreds of years.
No need to look down at our Southern neighbors.

Jim Crow
12-15-2013, 10:16 PM
that is true because this is where Austrians originated. Look at Arnold he is the man but a shitty politician.

Austo
12-15-2013, 10:16 PM
Only the culture makes Bavarians and Austrians seem similar. Bavarians and Austrians look very different because Bavarians look far better than Austrians. A lot of German beauties come from Bavaria while I have never seen one good looking Austrian woman, they're all just ugly and boring. I can't even get why Austrians are so much anti-german. Germans are better in every issue and Austria is actually only a cheap copy of Bavaria.

Thank you for your objective opinion. :lol:

Jim Crow
12-15-2013, 10:17 PM
I see Austrians as a regional variation of Germans, much like Prussians, Alsatians, Saxons, etc.

what about Silesians?

Jim Crow
12-15-2013, 10:18 PM
Austria produced one of the strongest Americans hahahahahaha

Trebal
12-15-2013, 10:45 PM
99% of all Austrian men are not like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Zaycev
12-15-2013, 10:51 PM
Only the culture makes Bavarians and Austrians seem similar. Bavarians and Austrians look very different because Bavarians look far better than Austrians. A lot of German beauties come from Bavaria while I have never seen one good looking Austrian woman, they're all just ugly and boring. I can't even get why Austrians are so much anti-german. Germans are better in every issue and Austria is actually only a cheap copy of Bavaria.


This guy must be the dumbest user I've met here on. Fuck off you stupid cunt

Trebal
12-15-2013, 10:54 PM
This guy must be the dumbest user I've met here on. Fuck off you stupid cunt

Only because Germans and Austrians are more related to Slavs than Bulgarians who are actually Turks?

Zaycev
12-15-2013, 10:55 PM
Only because Germans and Austrians are more related to Slavs than Bulgarians who are actually Turks?


I don't give a fuck if you call Bulgarians Turks. I just have the need to smash your uneducated, fascist head in you utter tosser.

Trebal
12-15-2013, 11:02 PM
I don't give a fuck if you call Bulgarians Turks. I just have the need to smash your uneducated, fascist head in you utter tosser.

You have only on the net big balls :)

Austo
12-15-2013, 11:08 PM
99% of all Austrian men are not like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Rich?

Trebal
12-15-2013, 11:21 PM
Rich?

You know very well what I mean

Wolf
12-15-2013, 11:28 PM
Generally people from the North/Western Netherlands(Holland/Zeeland/Friesland) are closer to English and Danish people than to Germans.

The English are closer related to the Dutch than to their Saxon ancestors in Northwestern Germany?

The Danes are closer related to the Dutch than to their neighbours in Schleswig-Holstein?



I have seen some Dutch samples that are distant from Germans.

I've seen many German samples which look different from stereotypical Germans, too.

Now what?



(Especially Western) Dutch people are not a bunch of Germans in denial as you claim.

Why?



Only the culture makes Bavarians and Austrians seem similar. Bavarians and Austrians look very different because Bavarians look far better than Austrians. A lot of German beauties come from Bavaria while I have never seen one good looking Austrian woman, they're all just ugly and boring. I can't even get why Austrians are so much anti-german. Germans are better in every issue and Austria is actually only a cheap copy of Bavaria.

:picard1:

Jim Crow
12-15-2013, 11:29 PM
Only because Germans and Austrians are more related to Slavs than Bulgarians who are actually Turks?

An answer and a question? Grammatically incorrect. Yes Germans I think are more Slavic than other Nordic countries. This would include Austria.

Jim Crow
12-15-2013, 11:30 PM
Rich?

my favorite movie with him is the Conan movie [well both of them] they are hilarious.

Trebal
12-15-2013, 11:34 PM
An answer and a question? Grammatically incorrect. Yes Germans I think are more Slavic than other Nordic countries. This would include Austria.

That's not grammatically incorrect. You simply don't know grammar.

Trebal
12-15-2013, 11:37 PM
The English are closer related to the Dutch than to their Saxon ancestors in Northwestern Germany?

The Danes are closer related to the Dutch than to their neighbours in Schleswig-Holstein?



I've seen many German samples which look different from stereotypical Germans, too.

Now what?




Why?




:picard1:

Of course the English are closer related to the Dutch than to Germans. Are you blind or what?

Wolf
12-15-2013, 11:58 PM
Of course the English are closer related to the Dutch than to Germans. Are you blind or what?

:picard1:

Wild North
12-16-2013, 03:20 AM
I see here´s a lot of non-Austrians / non-Germans (including me:rolleyes::p) trying to define if the Austrians are Germans or not.

Wouldn´t we really think that this issue, should have been settled already in 1871, when the German Reich was formed, or unified ? No there were certain circumstances apparently that didn´t let this happen.. The two core "German" states were Prussia and Austria, and the problem was that these two were bitter enemies.

Baluarte
12-16-2013, 03:27 AM
I see here´s a lot of non-Austrians / non-Germans (including me:rolleyes::p) trying to define if the Austrians are Germans or not.

Wouldn´t we really think that this issue, should have been settled already in 1871, when the German Reich was formed, or unified ? No there were certain circumstances apparently that didn´t let this happen.. The two core "German" states were Prussia and Austria, and the problem was that these two were bitter enemies.

It's also worth remembering what was the process that led to the German reunification (nice title to define Prussian expansionism). Pure political projection and the destruction of older monarchies.

In a fitting example of backstabbing, the Prussians destroyed the Hannoverian crown, which played a critical role in preventing the French from joining the Austrians in the Seven Year War during the XVIII Century, and overwhelming Prussia. Can't say I'm sorry about that, since I dont' have much sympathy for Hannover anyway, but it's good to remember it as a historical marker.

arcticwolf
12-16-2013, 03:38 AM
Trebal is good, he is quite skilled as a troll. He plays you all like a violin, and laughs his ass off. His style is beautiful, he trolls everybody, he does not discriminate. You gotta appreciate an artisan at work. BTW He is prolly a Turk. LOL

Wild North
12-16-2013, 04:18 AM
It's also worth remembering what was the process that led to the German reunification (nice title to define Prussian expansionism). Pure political projection and the destruction of older monarchies.

In a fitting example of backstabbing, the Prussians destroyed the Hannoverian crown, which played a critical role in preventing the French from joining the Austrians in the Seven Year War during the XVIII Century, and overwhelming Prussia. Can't say I'm sorry about that, since I dont' have much sympathy for Hannover anyway, but it's good to remember it as a historical marker.

If we start to consider Austrians, as a though related ethnicity but distinct from Germans, one has to have in mind that the Austrian Communist party had this idea at the end of World War II. Although not really nationalists (I think) but they used this idea, probably for the reason to win the popularity among the Austrian people.

And you know if history had turned a different way, there would have been a "Peoples republic of East Austria". And as you see Austria was also occupied (the besatzung) and partitioned by the allies, but then later they all needed a "neutral zone", during the cold war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kp%C3%B6.jpg

Hevo
12-16-2013, 05:59 AM
The English are closer related to the Dutch than to their Saxon ancestors in Northwestern Germany?

The Danes are closer related to the Dutch than to their neighbours in Schleswig-Holstein?


Yup The English are closer to the Dutch than to Germans, ask Jackson/Albion.




I've seen many German samples which look different from stereotypical Germans, too.


This explains the diversity among the Germans themselves but they are still closely related as a whole while the Western Netherlanders are destinct from Germans. Why should they call themselves Germans then?

Wolf
12-16-2013, 11:00 AM
Yup The English are closer to the Dutch than to Germans, ask Jackson/Albion.

What do you actually mean by "closer"? Culturally closer, linguistically closer, economically closer etc.?



This explains the diversity among the Germans themselves but they are still closely related as a whole while the Western Netherlanders are destinct from Germans.

Which Germans? As you correctly stated, the Germans are quite diversified. A Bavarian is more related to a Swabian than to a (Low) Saxon, but still they're all Germans.

Who are "Western Netherlanders" according to you, Flemings?

Szegedist
12-16-2013, 11:16 AM
Like I said many times before, its for Austrians to decide what they are, not the French, or Prussians, or Colombians or whatever.

Just hold a referendum...

Szegedist
12-16-2013, 11:22 AM
One problem I have encountered among some extremists who say Austria = Germany, is that Austrian Empire also = Germany, therefore Germans have right to all former Habsburg lands :laugh:

Corvus
12-16-2013, 11:28 AM
One problem I have encountered among some extremists who say Austria = Germany, is that Austrian Empire also = Germany, therefore Germans have right to all former Habsburg lands :laugh:

Thats exactly what Otto von Bismark did not want. He wanted to unite all German states including Bavaria (which was opposed by Ludwig II) but he did not want to include Austria because in his eyes this Vielvölkerstaat (many ethnicities under one roof) would threaten the integrity of the German nation.

Only Hitler wanted to unite them all almost a century later.

Szegedist
12-16-2013, 11:28 AM
to lighten the mood

http://i.imgur.com/VHY5eRM.png
http://i.imgur.com/Z1YlDt0.png
http://i.imgur.com/DAiIjka.png
http://i.imgur.com/WcZ7jTV.png

http://i.imgur.com/rLrrpwF.png

http://i.imgur.com/cxqkKHM.png

http://i.imgur.com/XEyJ88N.png

Szegedist
12-16-2013, 11:32 AM
Thats exactly what Otto von Bismark did not want. He wanted to unite all German states including Bavaria (which was opposed by Ludwig II) but he did not want to include Austria because in his eyes this Vielvölkerstaat (many ethnicities under one roof) would threaten the integrity of the German nation.

Only Hitler wanted to unite them all almost a century later.
Wasn't there also a religious factor to it?

Corvus
12-16-2013, 11:34 AM
Wasn't there also a religious factor to it?

It did not play a significant role. Also the Bavarians are Catholics, so this was not the deciding factor.

noricum
12-16-2013, 11:35 AM
I can't even get why Austrians are so much anti-german. Germans are better in every issue and Austria is actually only a cheap copy of Bavaria.

Just because most Austrians don't identify themselfs as Germans, doesn't mean we hate Germans at all. If some do endeed, it could be either envy for all the great things you have and we lack. Like cool US soldiers all over the country, great Lebanese musicians, a proper guild complex, a law for every possible little crap and diversity everywhere you look.
Or it could be because some Germans seem to look down on us, acting like maniacs, trying hard to fullfill the stereotype of a veritable Piefke.

Szegedist
12-16-2013, 11:38 AM
It did not play a significant role. Also the Bavarians are Catholics, so this was not the deciding factor.

Not the religion itself, however if Habsburg Empire was included, then it would tip the scales further towards Catholicism. Though I am not sure of the demographics in Germany at this time, so I don't know how much of an effect it would have had.

Corvus
12-16-2013, 11:44 AM
Not the religion itself, however if Habsburg Empire was included, then it would tip the scales further towards Catholicism. Though I am not sure of the demographics in Germany at this time, so I don't know how much of an effect it would have had.

That would have been the case. Also the fact that the K.u.K. empire was really powerful at this time. It was at the pinnacle of extension. So the Prussians obvisouly wanted to be at the forefront in any aspect in Germany and did not fancy a strong counterpart in the South. After the battle of Königsgrätz (Hradec Krįlové) 1866 which ended in a desastrous defeat of the Austrian army due to technological disadvantages in terms of weapenory the Prussians gained the upper hand and it remained there since this time.

Trebal
12-16-2013, 08:34 PM
Just because most Austrians don't identify themselfs as Germans, doesn't mean we hate Germans at all. If some do endeed, it could be either envy for all the great things you have and we lack. Like cool US soldiers all over the country, great Lebanese musicians, a proper guild complex, a law for every possible little crap and diversity everywhere you look.
Or it could be because some Germans seem to look down on us, acting like maniacs, trying hard to fullfill the stereotype of a veritable Piefke.

I can only laugh about your primitive way of thinking. Austria is even worse islamized than Germany. I heard of so many Austrians who converted to Islam. Before you hate Germany you have to hate yourselves.

Austo
12-16-2013, 09:04 PM
I can only laugh about your primitive way of thinking. Austria is even worse islamized than Germany. I heard of so many Austrians who converted to Islam. Before you hate Germany you have to hate yourselves.

why you hate austria? we love germans! :rolleyes:

solaris
12-16-2013, 09:39 PM
Habsburgs were a Family, the majority of Austrians are not descended from them.
you don't say... i meant something else by "habsburg-balkan blend".

noricum
12-16-2013, 10:10 PM
I can only laugh about your primitive way of thinking. Austria is even worse islamized than Germany. I heard of so many Austrians who converted to Islam. Before you hate Germany you have to hate yourselves.

Is that you in your avatar?

Geni
12-16-2013, 10:13 PM
Clar,they are south germans

Trebal
12-16-2013, 10:35 PM
Is that you in your avatar?

Is that your mother in your avatar?

noricum
12-17-2013, 03:40 PM
Is that your mother in your avatar?

If you really are such a proud german as you pretend to be, you should at least know about Ernst Jünger.

Corvus
12-17-2013, 03:42 PM
If you really are such a proud german as you pretend to be, you should at least know about Ernst Jünger.

Ignorier den Troll. Der will nur Zwietracht säen.

Trebal
12-17-2013, 04:07 PM
Ignorier den Troll. Der will nur Zwietracht säen.

Jemand, der sich wie du nennt, sollte sich lieber bedeckt halten.

Szegedist
12-20-2013, 07:33 PM
It's important to look at the founding of Austria.


The March of Austria was a southeastern frontier march of the Holy Roman Empire created in 976 out of the territory on the border with the Kingdom of Hungary. Originally under the overlordship of the Dukes of Bavaria, it was ruled by margraves of the Franconian Babenberg dynasty. It became an Imperial State in its own right, when the Babenbergs were elevated to Dukes of Austria in 1156.

In contemporary Latin, the entity was called the marcha Orientalis ("Eastern march"), marchia Austriae, or Austrie marchionibus. The Old High German name Ostarrīchi first appeared on a famous deed of donation issued by Emperor Otto III at Bruchsal in November 996. The regione vulgari vocabulo Ostarrīchi, that is, "the region commonly called Ostarrīchi", probably only referred to some estates around the manor of Neuhofen an der Ybbs, nevertheless the term Ostarrīchi is linguistic ancestor of the German name for Austria, Österreich.

Later the march was also called the Margraviate of Austria or the Bavarian Eastern March to differentiate it from the Saxon Eastern March in the northeast. During the Anschluss period of 1938–45 the Nazi authorities tried to replace the term "Austria" with Ostmark, a German translation of marcha Orientalis that had become common in 19th-century German historiography.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margraviate_of_Austria



So essentially, Austria was created as an Eastern Shield for Germany against Magyars. Before the Hungarian homecoming, the territory of Austria was part of the Duchy of Bavaria
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Bayern_im_10.Jh.png


So it is indeed, part of the German nation.

illes93
05-26-2014, 07:20 AM
I consider austrians as a part of the german ethnicity

Rudel
05-26-2014, 07:26 AM
Austrians used to think of themselves as Germans, but WW2 pretty much screwed that up. Though things would have been interesting and they united Germany instead of Prussia.

TheWogWhisperer
05-26-2014, 07:37 AM
Very, very different, IMO. I think of Austrians and Swiss as being largely Alpine, while proper Germans are Nordic. I see it more like "Germans = Dutch = Danes".

Disclaimer: This is all simply my opinion and has very little to no grounding in actual fact.

There is a huge alpine influence in Germany. Also ethnicity=/=phenotype

Jim Crow
05-26-2014, 08:32 AM
There is a huge alpine influence in Germany. Also ethnicity=/=phenotype

Pan-Germanism is a good thing. It was popular in the late 1800s and up until the fall of the German Empire. I admire the German Empire though more so under the Kaiser and less so under Hitler.