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The Exiled King
04-17-2012, 01:51 AM
I am in mtDNA U5a1, this is from my direct maternal line from Sicily. Whats confusing is how did it end up there? My guess is either from Slavic slaves brought there by the "Saracens" or Arabs, the Varangian guard, or maybe the Normans? Whats interesting is mtDNA U5a1 is found at it's highest frequency in Finland (especially the Saami, Lapps, Volga-Finnic people), Estonia, Russia, Ukraine, Norway, etc.

It comes from the Andronovo culture. Is it an Indo-European mtDNA Haplogroup? Does it correlate with the Haplogroup R1a?

This thread is basically for discussion on mtDNA U5.

Peyrol
04-17-2012, 04:15 PM
I am in mtDNA U5a1, this is from my direct maternal line from Sicily. Whats confusing is how did it end up there? My guess is either from Slavic slaves brought there by the "Saracens" or Arabs, the Varangian guard, or maybe the Normans? Whats interesting is mtDNA U5a1 is found at it's highest frequency in Finland (especially the Saami, Lapps, Volga-Finnic people), Estonia, Russia, Ukraine, Norway, etc.

It comes from the Andronovo culture. Is it an Indo-European mtDNA Haplogroup? Does it correlate with the Haplogroup R1a?

This thread is basically for discussion on mtDNA U5.

Is this haplogrup northern-northeastern euros?
In this case could be a normannic heritage.

Sikeliot
04-17-2012, 04:18 PM
Mtdna U5 is one of the oldest Paleolithic haplogroups in Europe. Likely it has existed in Sicily since pre-Neolithic times, thus represents the very old European population that existed there before Neolithic settlers arrived. :)

Peyrol
04-17-2012, 04:24 PM
Mtdna U5 is one of the oldest Paleolithic haplogroups in Europe. Likely it has existed in Sicily since pre-Neolithic times, thus represents the very old European population that existed there before Neolithic settlers arrived. :)

I didn't know this.

Very helpful post, Clementina.

Anthropologique
04-17-2012, 04:46 PM
U5 peaks in Finland (18%), according to Eupedia. I believe the site is a reliable source of sorts. However, their genetic maps are iffy.

Mtdna U5 apparently has some common link with U6, found substantially in Berbers. The U5 Berber clade has been detected reasonably in the Sammi, suggesting a common ancient ancestry between the two groups. The original Berbers were likely Eurasian (maybe 15% direct descendants remain today) so the Sammi connection makes some sense.

Viljuska
04-17-2012, 06:38 PM
Mitochondrial DNA of prehistoric Europeans (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml)


The testing of ancient DNA helped understand how long each haplogroup has been in Europe. Only a few such tests have been successfully conducted so far. Mitochondrial DNA was extracted from the skeleton of a 28,000 year-old Cro-Magnon from southern Italy, and the haplogroup was determined as HV or pre-HV. Still preceding the Neolithic expansion from the Middle East, the 9,000 year-old Cheddar Man was found to belong to haplogroup U5a.

Autochtonous (Cro-Magnoid) Europeans must have therefore belonged at least to haplogroups HV (and its offspring H and V) as well as U5a, which also happen to be the most common mitochndrial haplogroup everywhere in Europe. It has been speculated that over half of the matrilineal lineages in Europe descend directly from Paleolithic Europeans. Their male counterpart are Y-DNA haplogroup I.

Sikeliot
04-17-2012, 06:43 PM
The original Berbers were likely Eurasian (maybe 15% direct descendants remain today) so the Sammi connection makes some sense.

So then who makes up the rest of the population? I doubt Arabs settled that densely.

Pallantides
04-17-2012, 06:44 PM
Most of the Sami belong to the subclade U5b1b1

U5b1b1 have a frequency of 56.8% among Norwegian Sami and 26.5% in Swedish Sami.

safinator
04-17-2012, 06:47 PM
MTDNA K might have been paleolithic too.

The Exiled King
04-17-2012, 07:37 PM
Mtdna U5 is one of the oldest Paleolithic haplogroups in Europe. Likely it has existed in Sicily since pre-Neolithic times, thus represents the very old European population that existed there before Neolithic settlers arrived. :)

That is extremely possible. I know for a fact the high amount of R1b in Sicily is not from the Normans but from the Italic people that settled there first.

jerney
04-17-2012, 07:49 PM
My father is U5a1b (used to be U5a1 I think, but I guess they changed it) and his mother is from Sweden.

Here's what 23andme says about it:


U5a1

Haplogroup U5a1 originated in Europe during the Ice Age, about 20,000 years ago. At the time people were confined to small refuges in the southern part of the continent. When the glaciers began receding about 15,000 years ago people began migrating northward, carrying U5a1 and other haplogroups with them. Today U5a1 is most commonly found in places such as Norway and northern Germany.

Other members of the U5a1 haplogroup moved south into the Near East, perhaps in search of a warmer, more hospitable climate than the dry, glaciated tundra of Ice Age Europe. Today their maternal descendants can be found at low levels (less than 2%) in Turkey, Iran, and Syria.

Anthropologique
04-17-2012, 09:31 PM
So then who makes up the rest of the population? I doubt Arabs settled that densely.

A mix of Berber and Arab plus SS African. You also have descendants of Mozarabs (native Iberian converts to Islam) who were expelled from Spain and Portugal.

True Berbers stand out from the general North African population. They have been essentially endogamous throughout their history. The Kaybel are an example.

Peyrol
04-17-2012, 11:21 PM
A mix of Berber and Arab plus SS African. You also have descendants of Mozarabs (native Iberian converts to Islam) who were expelled from Spain and Portugal.

True Berbers stand out from the general North African population. They have been essentially endogamous throughout their history. The Kaybel are an example.

Plus, phoenicians (Carthago foederation was very extended in North Africa), greek colonists, roman colonists, etc.

Jackson
01-02-2014, 02:31 PM
Some more information on my U5a1b. The earliest person on the direct maternal line i can find was born in Ashford in Kent, England in 1814, by the name (surname) of Joy. I came across some pictures of two other relatives who should also be U5a1b, although can't post them here (they don't belong to me).

Ashford is quite a good communication/travel hub for that part of Kent, so i have no idea if her family have deep roots in Ashford yet, or whether her family ultimately came from somewhere else in Kent. Although that part of my family is all from the same part of Kent so probably no surprises.

Mani
01-02-2014, 05:54 PM
My mtDNA is u5b1b1a. Maternal line is from Iraq. I think that this haplogroup is found at its highest in Scandinavia , especially among Sami people.

Fire Haired
01-05-2014, 11:32 AM
My mtDNA is u5b1b1a. Maternal line is from Iraq. I think that this haplogroup is found at its highest in Scandinavia , especially among Sami people.

How in the world is your maternal line from Iraq but you have typical Finnish-Sami mtDNA U5b1b1a. That haplogroup is estimated to be only 4,000 years old and without doubt originated in northern Europe and quickly arrived in Scandinavia. I think there might be some type of mistake maybe whatever company you took a mtDNA test from had someone else's DNA. I know that most haplogroups especially in west Eurasia are very spread out for whatever reasons but U5b1b1a in Iraq sounds nuts. If you really have U5b1b1a than my best guess is maybe it was bounced around Indo European copper age Yamna and Corded ware cultures through trade and ended up in Iraq at some point. Maybe it arrived with Indo Iranian languages in that region. There are many possibilities your great times whatever grandmother could have been a slave in Rome and brought from outside the northern borders of the empire all the way to the near east.

Fire Haired
01-05-2014, 11:40 AM
I am in mtDNA U5a1, this is from my direct maternal line from Sicily. Whats confusing is how did it end up there? My guess is either from Slavic slaves brought there by the "Saracens" or Arabs, the Varangian guard, or maybe the Normans? Whats interesting is mtDNA U5a1 is found at it's highest frequency in Finland (especially the Saami, Lapps, Volga-Finnic people), Estonia, Russia, Ukraine, Norway, etc.

It comes from the Andronovo culture. Is it an Indo-European mtDNA Haplogroup? Does it correlate with the Haplogroup R1a?

This thread is basically for discussion on mtDNA U5.

U5a1 is extremely ancient it is estimated to be 20,000 years old that is 10,000 years before most of Scandinavia was first settled by humans. It shouldn't be a surprise if U5a1 is found anywhere in Europe since it has been there for so long and existed in so many different ethnicities. mtDNA U5, U2e, and U4 dominated mtDNA of pre historic European hunter gatherers. There are two 31,155 year old U samples from Czech republic that had two of the five defining mutations of modern U5 which means it was ancestral to modern U5 and that this lineage has been in Europe for over 30,000 years.

Caismeachd
01-06-2014, 06:54 AM
Isn't U5b2 even much older than u5a1?

Ukko
01-06-2014, 09:50 PM
How in the world is your maternal line from Iraq but you have typical Finnish-Sami mtDNA U5b1b1a. That haplogroup is estimated to be only 4,000 years old and without doubt originated in northern Europe and quickly arrived in Scandinavia. I think there might be some type of mistake maybe whatever company you took a mtDNA test from had someone else's DNA. I know that most haplogroups especially in west Eurasia are very spread out for whatever reasons but U5b1b1a in Iraq sounds nuts. If you really have U5b1b1a than my best guess is maybe it was bounced around Indo European copper age Yamna and Corded ware cultures through trade and ended up in Iraq at some point. Maybe it arrived with Indo Iranian languages in that region. There are many possibilities your great times whatever grandmother could have been a slave in Rome and brought from outside the northern borders of the empire all the way to the near east.

I bet Viking Age or even more recent times, Russians took civilians to slavery in wars as a rule up in the 18th century, they sold them to Persia often.

Anglojew
01-06-2014, 10:24 PM
Mtdna U5 is one of the oldest Paleolithic haplogroups in Europe. Likely it has existed in Sicily since pre-Neolithic times, thus represents the very old European population that existed there before Neolithic settlers arrived. :)

Exactly.

Fire Haired
01-06-2014, 10:27 PM
I bet Viking Age or even more recent times, Russians took civilians to slavery in wars as a rule up in the 18th century, they sold them to Persia often.

There are a lot of possibilities.

Nabatea1
01-10-2014, 04:36 AM
How in the world is your maternal line from Iraq but you have typical Finnish-Sami mtDNA U5b1b1a. That haplogroup is estimated to be only 4,000 years old and without doubt originated in northern Europe and quickly arrived in Scandinavia. I think there might be some type of mistake maybe whatever company you took a mtDNA test from had someone else's DNA. I know that most haplogroups especially in west Eurasia are very spread out for whatever reasons but U5b1b1a in Iraq sounds nuts. If you really have U5b1b1a than my best guess is maybe it was bounced around Indo European copper age Yamna and Corded ware cultures through trade and ended up in Iraq at some point. Maybe it arrived with Indo Iranian languages in that region. There are many possibilities your great times whatever grandmother could have been a slave in Rome and brought from outside the northern borders of the empire all the way to the near east.


Actually that is his MtDNA believe it or not, and also his mom is quite atypical for an Iraqi, she is quite European looking actually. Plus on his 23andme he scores some minor Finnish, whoever it got there is indeed mysterious. I have told him to test his mom to find it out more in details. His mtDNA is quite rare for the people there, as their mtDNA seems to match with Arabian populations.

Fire Haired
01-10-2014, 10:47 PM
Actually that is his MtDNA believe it or not, and also his mom is quite atypical for an Iraqi, she is quite European looking actually. Plus on his 23andme he scores some minor Finnish, whoever it got there is indeed mysterious. I have told him to test his mom to find it out more in details. His mtDNA is quite rare for the people there, as their mtDNA seems to match with Arabian populations.

What Arabian population does he match with? His mtDNA could be from recent Finnish or another related Uralic mixing.

Dál Riata
02-15-2014, 11:09 PM
I have U5a2 from my Maltese mother!

Fire Haired
02-16-2014, 12:02 AM
I have U5a2 from my Maltese mother!

You probably have R1a L664(through Viking mixing) which is rare in Scotland, U5 is probably much more rare in Maltese than in average Europeans so U5a2 is a surprise. Out of any mtDNA haplogroup in the world I would want is U5, I wasn't surprised at all to learn I have U5b2a2. We are apart of the greatest lineage in the world, that's just fact.

Dál Riata
02-16-2014, 11:13 AM
You probably have R1a L664(through Viking mixing) which is rare in Scotland, U5 is probably much more rare in Maltese than in average Europeans so U5a2 is a surprise. Out of any mtDNA haplogroup in the world I would want is U5, I wasn't surprised at all to learn I have U5b2a2. We are apart of the greatest lineage in the world, that's just fact.

We sure are brother! ;) I never thought that mtDNA could be so interesting! I was expecting H or some kind of JT. To get U5 in Malta was a nice surprise! Tens of thousands of years in Ice Age Europe!

I was expecting R1b-L21 for Y-DNA. My surname is supposedly descended from this medieval Celtic warrior!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerled
http://www.scotsman.com/news/sci-tech/dna-shows-celtic-hero-somerled-s-viking-roots-1-709181

He defeated the Vikings in 12th century Scotland. But as well as marrying a Viking princess, it seems he had Viking paternal ancestry himself. Norse Vikings intermarried with native Gaelic speaking Celts in the Hebrides and West coast of Scotland as well as parts of Ireland and the people there took on a mixed Celtic-Viking culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse%E2%80%93Gaels

Fire Haired
02-16-2014, 05:28 PM
We sure are brother! ;) I never thought that mtDNA could be so interesting! I was expecting H or some kind of JT. To get U5 in Malta was a nice surprise! Tens of thousands of years in Ice Age Europe!

I was expecting R1b-L21 for Y-DNA. My surname is supposedly descended from this medieval Celtic warrior!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerled
http://www.scotsman.com/news/sci-tech/dna-shows-celtic-hero-somerled-s-viking-roots-1-709181

He defeated the Vikings in 12th century Scotland. But as well as marrying a Viking princess, it seems he had Viking paternal ancestry himself. Norse Vikings intermarried with native Gaelic speaking Celts in the Hebrides and West coast of Scotland as well as parts of Ireland and the people there took on a mixed Celtic-Viking culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse%E2%80%93Gaels

It is pretty incredible that your paternal line probably goes back to that Scottish hero who lived almost 1,000 years ago and that makes you Scottish royalty right? I had no idea Norse and Gealics had a such a close relationship. In admixtures I have seen it doesn't seem there is much Norse ancestry in Scotland but definitely some. There is definitely British-Irish ancestry though in Iceland and western Norway, because close to 20% of them have Y DNA R1b L21 and they have a higher percentage of red hair than Swedes.