Ethnic Borders of Lithuania

[Jarl]

There should be "Lithuania" - sorry for the typo! Can someone correct this please?



Here is a map I found of the Suwalki region. I marked the former Polish and Prussian border with green:


http://i49.tinypic.com/rbm9lx.png



I have seen this map in several variants. It shows the furtherst Lithunian extent of Lithuanian-speaking area. I think it shows the situation in 1876, but in one source it stated 1863.



Here is the map of current borders - the line from Lipsk upwards should be tilted slightly to the West rather than vertical - but since those are manily forest areas (Puszcza Augustowska) it wont make a big difference:

http://i48.tinypic.com/r295k5.png

[kamane]

And?

What are you trying to tell?

[Jarl]

And?

What are you trying to tell?



Just what the maps tell. Why are you presuming malicious intentions on my side?

[kamane]

If you want to discuss ethnic and official borders of Prussian Lithuanians and Lithuanians (and vs. let's say Poland) you should ask Skomand (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/group.php?groupid=181)from ABF.

[kamane]

maps posted in the mentioned forum:

The spread of Lithuanian language in Prussian Lithuania based on the census of the year 1906.

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/7374/dscf3966k.jpg

1 - the border of the state
2 - 70-10%
3 - 50-70%
4 - 20-50%
5 - 5-20%
6 - to 15 %

will post one more later

[Breedingvariety]

Vast majority of Memelland Lithuanians fled to Germany at the end of WW2.

[Jarl]

Vast majority of Memelland Lithuanians fled to Germany at the end of WW2.

Quite similar with the East Prussian Poles, the Mazurians.

[kamane]

Quite similar with the East Prussian Poles, the Mazurians.

Red Army didn't differentiate between German, Lithuanian and I suppose other ethnicities in East Prussia.

Red Army's actions in Memelland towards the locals where a bit different compared to how they acted in East Prussia.

[Jarl]

Red Army didn't differentiate between German, Lithuanian and I suppose other ethnicities in East Prussia.

Red Army's actions in Memelland towards the locals where a bit different compared to how they acted in East Prussia.


That depends on the region. Mazurs did not consider themselves Polish and so they were initially indeed treated like Germans by the Soviets. That was slightly different in the West, particularly in Catholic Ermland. But the scale of atrocities was arguably highest in East Prussia.

[kamane]

That depends on the region. Mazurs did not consider themselves Polish and so they were initially indeed treated like Germans by the Soviets. That was slightly different in the West, particularly in Catholic Ermland. But the scale of atrocities was arguably highest in East Prussia.

I doubt they actually asked people what do they consider themselves before raping and killing them in East Prussia...Wasn't it the first German region which Soviets invaded, anyway?

[tiger]

maps posted in the mentioned forum:

The spread of Lithuanian language in Prussian Lithuania based on the census of the year 1906.

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/7374/dscf3966k.jpg

1 - the border of the state
2 - 70-10%
3 - 50-70%
4 - 20-50%
5 - 5-20%
6 - to 15 %

will post one more later

The colour version:

http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/mazojilietuva19.htm

[Ghoul]

I doubt they actually asked people what do they consider themselves before raping and killing them in East Prussia...Wasn't it the first German region which Soviets invaded, anyway?

I shutter to think of what those people had to go through.
I saw a documentary that described that some of them tried to escape throu the Curonian spit to Mecklenberg.

[Jarl]

Having flicked through some old maps and digged into the literature I must conclude that generally speaking Lithuanian maps printed before 1920 were quite accurate. Many of them seem to be variants of on a single map and differ very slightly. For instance in some of them the area near Przerosl is not Lithuanian (and that is correct). I particulary think one single map by Antanas Smetona printed in 1914 in a Lithuanian newspaper is very accurate as it gives several lines of the extent of Lithuanian language by different authors.

Generally it does not differ much from the one posted above. Only around Przerosl and Sejny-Berzniki is recedes back a little - which is correct and in accordance to Lithuanian ethnographists. This variant which I showed here presents the furthest extent of ethnic Lithuanian settlement (not counting colonies dispersed among Polish or Ruthenian areas). It has to be noted though that the solid Lithuanian settlement did not reach far beyond the Berzniki-Sejny-Wizajny line/road (only South of Wizajny there were several early Lithuanian villages). Further to the South there were some Lithuanian villages were interspersed among Polish and Ruthenian settlements.

So while the part of the old Sejny and Suwalki districts that are now part of Poland were generally more Polish-Belarusian than Lithuanian, the Northern fringes counting perhaps some 60-odd villages and hamlets belonged to historically ethnic Lithuanian territory. However by early XXth century the are became quite mixed and bilingual. Lithuanians had a clear majority only in the area near Punsk (as they still do even today), North of Sejny-Szypliszki line.

[XtraXavier]

South Lithuania jest Polska.

[arcticwolf]

South Lithuania jest Polska.

Lithuanians are our brothers and sisters. Let them be. :D

[tiger]

South Lithuania jest Polska.

It's only temporary...

[Jarl]

lol

[tiger]

The same period:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11874710/img/Anonymous/ethnic.jpg
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11874710/img/Anonymous/ethnic.jpg

[Skomand]

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i283740_buga.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/283740_buga.jpg.html)

It's interesting to see how far inland (Proto-) Lithuanians lived round 500 according to Buga.
The German geographer Mortensen sees the Lithuanian
westward movement to the Baltic Sea and their final settlement in the 16th century in East Prussia as the very last stage of the Great Peoples' Migration (Völkerwanderung).

[Meow]

Don't forget London, it's full of lithuanians :D

[Skomand]

please clean

[Skomand]

Don't forget London, it's full of lithuanians :D

It's hardly known that (after Slavic ones) Lithuanian surnames in Germany come second-place among non-German surnames .
German-Lithuanian surname Naujoks is the most wide-spead Lithuanian surname worldwide: 1600 hits. When all the derivatives of Lithuanian "naujokas" are included the number is even higher.

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i283746_naujoks-absolute.png (http://hostarea.de/show.php/283746_naujoks-absolute.png.html)

Naujocks, Naujoks, Naujock, Naujok, Naujokat


http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujocks.html 100
http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujock.html 131

http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujok.html 331
http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujokat.html 442

The first modern Lithuanian emigration wave landed them in Berlin and in the Ruhrgebiet. That was in the 19th century.

[XtraXavier]

Don't forget London, it's full of lithuanians :D
And Polacks. :D

[Meow]

And Polacks. :D

Polish people are everywhere: Norway, Germany, UK, Ireland.


It's hardly known that (after Slavic ones) Lithuanian surnames in Germany come second-place among non-German surnames .
German-Lithuanian surname Naujoks is the most wide-spead Lithuanian surname worldwide: 1600 hits. When all the derivatives of Lithuanian "naujokas" are included the number is even higher.

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i283746_naujoks-absolute.png (http://hostarea.de/show.php/283746_naujoks-absolute.png.html)

Naujocks, Naujoks, Naujock, Naujok, Naujokat


http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujocks.html 100
http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujock.html 131

http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujok.html 331
http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujokat.html 442

The first modern Lithuanian emigration wave landed them in Berlin and in the Ruhrgebiet. That was in the 19th century.

Thanks for sharing this site, I typed my own surname and found 10 bis 12 in Hannover and 1 bis 3 in 4 other regions

[XtraXavier]

Polish people are everywhere: Norway, Germany, UK, Ireland.
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

[Skomand]

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284090_mortensen-grenze.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284090_mortensen-grenze.jpg.html)

This little 1927 map by Hans Mortensen shows the ethnographic border between East-Prussia and Lithuania round 1422.
Before Mortensen's studies historians believed that Lithuanians were autochthons in northern Prussia. In reality,
Lithuanians settled in Prussia only after the Peace Treaty of Melno (1466).

[tiger]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg/544px-Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg.png

[XtraXavier]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..

[Skomand]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg/544px-Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg.png

Lithuania had no access to the sea round round 1200. Here is a more detailed map by Mortensen.


http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284506_bild-karte-mortensen-sa-frac14-dkurland.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284506_bild-karte-mortensen-sa-frac14-dkurland.jpg.html)

[sammymcgoff]

South Lithuania jest Polska.

Nie, South Lithuania nie jest Polska

[XtraXavier]

Nie, South Lithuania nie jest Polska
You don't know about Polish/Lithuanian history, my dear English friend.

[sammymcgoff]

You don't know about Polish/Lithuanian history, my dear English friend.

Course, I don't. Sorry for going off topic, but I am learning Polish language though, so that's why I replied in English/Polish mix

[Migla]

You don't know about Polish/Lithuanian history, my dear English friend.

wait, are you saying Southern Lithuania is polish? :D

[sammymcgoff]

wait, are you saying Southern Lithuania is polish? :D

That's what he said, yes!

[Migla]

That's what he said, yes!

well there's a lot(and I do mean a LOT) of polish people, we'll give him that

[sammymcgoff]

well there's a lot(and I do mean a LOT) of polish people, we'll give him that

Its the same even in the UK!

[XtraXavier]

Its the same even in the UK!
She meant that some Lithuanians from South Lithuania have Polish roots due to Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.

[Migla]

She meant that some Lithuanians from South Lithuania have Polish roots due to Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.

the guys from the south have Polish sounding names like Adomavicius
while in the western part of lithuania, people have last names like Augilius

[tiger]

well there's a lot(and I do mean a LOT) of polish people, we'll give him that

Southern Lithuania is poorly inhabited. Slavic people are concentrated around Vilnius, that is Eastern Lithuania actually.

[Skomand]

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284090_mortensen-grenze.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284090_mortensen-grenze.jpg.html)

This little 1927 map by Hans Mortensen shows the ethnographic border between East-Prussia and Lithuania round 1422.
Before Mortensen's studies historians believed that Lithuanians were autochthons in northern Prussia. In reality,
Lithuanians settled in Prussia only after the Peace Treaty of Melno (1466).

After the Lithuanians had settled in northern Prussia, something funny happened: northern Prussia came to be named "Lithuania" and the Lithuanians of Prussia called the Lithuanian land beyond the border "Samogitia" and its inhabitants "Samogitians".
To a 19th century German Lithuania belonged to Germany just like Bavaria or Westphalia, as this 1898 book illustrates:

http://archive.org/details/litaueneineland00zwecgoog

Albert Zweck
Litauen. Eine Landes- und Volkskunde
Stuttgart 1898

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284822_litauen-und-szamaiten.png (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284822_litauen-und-szamaiten.png.html)

[tiger]

After the Lithuanians had settled in northern Prussia, something funny happened: northern Prussia came to be named "Lithuania" and the Lithuanians of Prussia called the Lithuanian land beyond the border "Samogitia" and its inhabitants "Samogitians".
To a 19th century German Lithuania belonged to Germany just like Bavaria or Westphalia, as this 1898 book illustrates:

http://archive.org/details/litaueneineland00zwecgoog

Albert Zweck
Litauen. Eine Landes- und Volkskunde
Stuttgart 1898

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284822_litauen-und-szamaiten.png (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284822_litauen-und-szamaiten.png.html)

Nadruvia was included in the first Lithuanian state before crusaders took it away in 1263. So, technically it was occupied piece of Lithuania:

http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11930673/img/Anonymous/First-Lithuania.jpg
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11930673/img/Anonymous/First-Lithuania.jpg

[Skomand]

Another map showing Lithuania in Prussia only.
What is Lithuania today is shown as Samogitia and Poland.




http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284868_litthauen.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284868_litthauen.jpg.html)

[tiger]

Another map showing Lithuania in Prussia only.
What is Lithuania today is shown as Samogitia and Poland.




http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284868_litthauen.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284868_litthauen.jpg.html)

These are political maps. Yotvingia was temporary conquered by the Kingdom of Poland (1264–80), whereas Samogitia was autonomous in Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

[Skomand]

These are political maps. Yotvingia was temporary conquered by the Kingdom of Poland (1264–80), whereas Samogitia was autonomous in Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

The map is 18th century.

[tiger]

The map is 18th century.

You didn't mention this in your post. In that case it refers to this:

http://mikeeliasz.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/1820_polish_russian_polishkingdom_map.jpeg

Lithuania did not have an autonomy in Russian imperia, whereas Poland had it (Yotvingia was basically inhabited by Lithuanians, though it was added to Poland).

[XtraXavier]

Have you embrace your Polish roots yet?

[tiger]

Have you embrace your Polish roots yet?

I have no Polish roots. Also, I recommend you to visit Yotvingia one day. I will give you my money, if you find a single Pole there (Southern Lithuania).

[Skomand]

Not only was Lithuania not where it is today.
It had a Royal Lithuanian Government and its capital was Gumbinnen, not Kaunas or Vilnius.


http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284928_amtsblatt1.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284928_amtsblatt1.jpg.html)

[Migla]

Altdeutsch und unlesbar, I'm not even gonna bother reading it. Would be pointless since its too difficult for me ... :D
mind summarizing? :P

[Skomand]

Altdeutsch und unlesbar, I'm not even gonna bother reading it. Would be pointless since its too difficult for me ... :D
mind summarizing? :P

Just Royal cabinet orders and decrees.

[Skomand]

Altdeutsch und unlesbar, I'm not even gonna bother reading it. Would be pointless since its too difficult for me ... :D
mind summarizing? :P

BTW, Prussian-Lithuanian books, newspapers, bibles etc were always printed in Altdeutsch/Gothic script, while they wrote in Latin script. This was an important divisive factor between Lietuwininkai and Lietuviai.
Here is the very last page of a Prussian-Lithuanian newspaper (30th September 1940).

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i285013_lietuw-ceit.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/285013_lietuw-ceit.jpg.html)

"Mes atsisveikiname" = "We say farewell"

[Migla]

BTW, Prussian-Lithuanians books, newspapers, bibles etc were always printed in Altdeutsch/Gothic script, while they wrote in Latin script. This was an important divisive factor between Lietuwininkai and Lietuviai.
Here is the very last page of a Prussian-Lithuanian newspaper (30th September 1940).

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i285013_lietuw-ceit.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/285013_lietuw-ceit.jpg.html)

immer noch nicht lesbar. :P
I'm sooo bad with Altdeutsch It embarrassing, It takes me ages to read a sentence.
then again, these newspapers make those claims to northern-ness actually make some sense lol

[Skomand]

immer noch nicht lesbar. :P
I'm sooo bad with Altdeutsch It embarrassing, It takes me ages to read a sentence.


You would have failed primary school.

You can practice here:

1882 bilingual primer


http://hostarea.de/out.php/i285016_primer-dt.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/285016_primer-dt.jpg.html)

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i285019_primer-lit.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/285019_primer-lit.jpg.html)

adapted version

Aš esmi Szuilej. Szuilej yra daug Kudikiu: Waiku ir Mergaiczu. Szuilej yra wiskas kitaip, ne taip Namej Stuboj. Szulej yra Solu; ant tuju sed Szuilokai. Pirm Solu randasi Stalu;ant tuju deda Szuilokai sawo knygas, Toblyczas ben Rašimo Knygas. Pirm Solu yra Sostas Mokitojo. Ne toli nu to kaba dideji Toblycza; ta pati yra keturkampe, iš Medzo padaryta ir juday apmoliawota. Prie Sienu kaba gražus Abrozai.
Mokitojis susikalba su Szuilokais apie tus gražus Abrozus, apie Tewa bey Motina, apie Galwijus bey Želmenis, Menesi bei Zweigzdes; jis apsako jiems ir gražus Nusidawimus apie Pona Diewa. Kudikei mandagay sed ir milay daboja. Mokitojis mokina Kudikius melsti, giedoti, skaityti, czekoti, rašyti bei rokoti.
Gers Kudikis dzaugiasi, kad jis ta išmokti gal, ir todel mielay eina i Szuile. Szuilei pradedant ir pabaigiant meldzam ir giedam. Szuilei pasibaigius eina Szuilokai padorey Namun. Ar tu mielai eini i Szuile?

[Migla]

You would have failed primary school.

You can practice here:

1882 bilingual primer

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i285016_primer-dt.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/285016_primer-dt.jpg.html)

German version http://hostarea.de/out.php/i285017_primer-dt.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/285017_primer-dt.jpg.html)


adapted version

Aš esmi Szuilej. Szuilej yra daug Kudikiu: Waiku ir Mergaiczu. Szuilej yra wiskas kitaip, ne taip Namej Stuboj. Szulej yra Solu; ant tuju sed Szuilokai. Pirm Solu randasi Stalu;ant tuju deda Szuilokai sawo knygas, Toblyczas ben Rašimo Knygas. Pirm Solu yra Sostas Mokitojo. Ne toli nu to kaba dideji Toblycza; ta pati yra keturkampe, iš Medzo padaryta ir juday apmoliawota. Prie Sienu kaba gražus Abrozai.
Mokitojis susikalba su Szuilokais apie tus gražus Abrozus, apie Tewa bey Motina, apie Galwijus bey Želmenis, Menesi bei Zweigzdes; jis apsako jiems ir gražus Nusidawimus apie Pona Diewa. Kudikei mandagay sed ir milay daboja. Mokitojis mokina Kudikius melsti, giedoti, skaityti, czekoti, rašyti bei rokoti.
Gers Kudikis dzaugiasi, kad jis ta išmokti gal, ir todel mielay eina i Szuile. Szuilei pradedant ir pabaigiant meldzam ir giedam. Szuilei pasibaigius eina Szuilokai padorey Namun. Ar tu mielai eini i Szuile?

I'm not a native speaker of german or lithuanian, I've only started Altdeutsch this year at uni

[XtraXavier]

Can you speak Scottish?

[Migla]

Can you speak Scottish?

:picard1:

do you mean Gaelic?

[XtraXavier]

Yes

[Migla]

Yes

no sadly not, its not a thing

[XtraXavier]

Kinda suck you can't even speak your own languages.

[7eleven]

Lithuania belongs to the Jews

[Meow]

Lithuania belongs to the Jews


:lol00002:

[tiger]

This is one another map showing ethnic borders of different nations alongside the border of East Prussia and Russian Imperia (drawn in red), but the ethnic situation is probably of the XVII century. Note that the cities Goldap and Suwalki are shown on the ethnic Lithuanian side:

http://i45.tinypic.com/2ppm0k3.jpg

[Skomand]

This is one another map showing ethnic borders of different nations alongside the border of East Prussia and Russian Imperia (drawn in red), but the ethnic situation is probably of the XVII century. Note that the cities Goldap and Suwalki are shown on the ethnic Lithuanian side:

http://i45.tinypic.com/2ppm0k3.jpg

This looks like an early ethnographic map in German. "Eigentliche Letten" means "proper Latvians", since "Letten" as an umbrella term was used to comprise both Latvians and Lithuanians before it came to be replaced by "Balts".
The map also uses "Polaken" instead of "Polen". When "Polaken" is used in current German, it is always meant as an insult.

[Jarl]

This looks like an early ethnographic map in German. "Eigentliche Letten" means "proper Latvians", since "Letten" as an umbrella term was used to comprise both Latvians and Lithuanians before it came to be replaced by "Balts".
The map also uses "Polaken" instead of "Polen". When "Polaken" is used in current German, it is always meant as an insult.

This is indeed a German map by Perthes. It comes from some German lexikon afaik. There is another one with Poland at a better resolution. This map is particularly interesting for two reasons: first of all it mostly free from the later nationalist propaganda bias, and secondly it shows the major "ethnic" divisions just before modern schooling and germanisation policy managed to blurr them for good. It shows the situation in 1846.



This is one another map showing ethnic borders of different nations alongside the border of East Prussia and Russian Imperia (drawn in red), but the ethnic situation is probably of the XVII century. Note that the cities Goldap and Suwalki are shown on the ethnic Lithuanian side:

http://i45.tinypic.com/2ppm0k3.jpg



Not at all. Its mid XIXth century. Besides Goldap and Dubienniki were bilingual - there were Polish and Lithuanian masses held in both places. Here the ethnic Polish and ethnic Lithuanian arease met together.



In XVIIth century the Lithuanian area looked like this:

http://www.lituanus.org/1964/64_1_03_map.jpg

http://wiki-commons.genealogy.net/images/thumb/a/a7/Bild_Karte_Das_litauische_Sprachgebiet_in_Preussen .gif/900px-Bild_Karte_Das_litauische_Sprachgebiet_in_Preussen .gif


another version

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Lithuania_Minor.png




The dotted line is the Tetzner line - the extent of Lithuanian church masses by 1709.





And here Latvians or Kuronians of East Prussia:


http://wiki-commons.genealogy.net/images/thumb/9/92/Bild_Karte_Das_lettische_Sprachgebiet_in_Ostpreuss en.gif/700px-Bild_Karte_Das_lettische_Sprachgebiet_in_Ostpreuss en.gif

[Jarl]

This is one another map showing ethnic borders of different nations alongside the border of East Prussia and Russian Imperia (drawn in red), but the ethnic situation is probably of the XVII century. Note that the cities Goldap and Suwalki are shown on the ethnic Lithuanian side:

http://i45.tinypic.com/2ppm0k3.jpg




This is not accurate though. Here is another map from the same author and frmo the same Atlas:



http://i49.tinypic.com/33b0igp.jpg



Suwalki is on the Polish side this time.


Anyway the fact is that neither Suwalki nor Filipow nor Przerosl were Lithuanian as the church records of the city and nearby parishes indicate mostly Catholic Poles and Protestant Mazurs together with Russian colonists. Ethnic Lithuanian area extended North from the Sejny-Wiżajny road - with both Sejny and Wiżajny being mixed Polish-Lithuanian.


In the past (XVI-XVIIth century) mixed Lithuanian-Polish and Lithuanian-Ruthenian villages existed also South of this road - between Wiżajny and Suwałki and between Sejny and Wigry. They were however mixed and dispersed.


I think this line (comes from Lithuanian map):


http://i49.tinypic.com/rbm9lx.png


Shows the furthest extent of continous Lithuanian settlement including mixed Polsih-Lithuanian and Polish-Ruthenian villages:

http://i49.tinypic.com/rbm9lx.png

Przerosl is however definitely wrong and the area beyond the red line also contains some entirely Mazurian, Russian and Polish villages. But I think one could argue that this is really the furthest extent of historical Lithuanian and mixed-Lithuanian settlement in the Suwalki-Sejny region (not counting noble families or single family migrants and settlers who often travelled far to the South up to Grodno area but got quickly assimilated by Poles and Russians).


I would interested in other Lithuanian maps though. Does anyone have some???

[Skomand]

I would interested in other Lithuanian maps though. Does anyone have some???

The southernmost point of Lithuanian settlement in Prussia is Angerburg/Ungura, which used to be a tri-lingual city. The church records show that between the 16th/18th century Lithuanian was more widespread than is shown in all the maps above.

[Jarl]

The southernmost point of Lithuanian settlement in Prussia is Angerburg/Ungura, which used to be a tri-lingual city.


That is true. Goldap and Dubienniki were also trilingual. This was the line of the interface between predominantly Polish and predominantly Lithuanian settlemnt it can be more less drawn through:

Węgorzewo/Angerburg - Banie Mazurskie / Benkheim - Goldap and Żytkiejmy.


Polish historians wrote that even by the end of XVIII century in Angerburg there were still Polish and Lithuanian speakers.



The church records show that between the 16th/18th century Lithuanian was more widespread than is shown in all the maps above.

That is true, but mostly in the Western direction.


Same goes for Poles. In two places their settlement extenden even further North into the counties of Darkiejmy and Gierdawa.

[Jarl]

The map of Polish settlement in Prussia looked more less like this:


http://i46.tinypic.com/qz281d.png


Northe of the Angerburg - Benkheim - Goldap and Zytkiejmy line Polish or mixed Polish-Lithuanian settlement included:

in Darkehmen - Polska Wieś, Pieski, Diwidiszki, Gudwaly, Dąbrówka, Karpowo Duże i Małe, Kleszego, Mieduniszki Małe i Wielkie, Rogale, Żabin, Żabinek, Balety, Tatary, Maciejowa Wola, Piątki, Sikory.

in Gerdauen - Błędowo, Dąbrowa, Klonówka, Gniadkowo, Kurkowo, Kurkówko, Łączki, Polesie, Popówko, Kozłówko, Sokoły, Suczki, Trocin, Wesołowo, Wesołówko, Wola, Miczuły, Muldzie,Zawady, Różanna.


Other dispersed single colonies could be find in almost all counties.

[tiger]

The church records show that between the 16th/18th century Lithuanian was more widespread than is shown in all the maps above.
That is true, but mostly in the Western direction.


The map from the Lithuanian school atlas visualizes your statement:

http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/mazojilietuva16n.htm

[Skomand]

The map from the Lithuanian school atlas visualizes your statement:

http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/mazojilietuva16n.htm

I don't believe that the areas west of a straight north-south line running through Labiau/Labguva were half Lithuanian or Lithuanian majority. The Lithuanian settlement did not cover all of the Kaliningrad Oblast.
I think this map is politically motivated. In the 90s there were claims by Lithuanian historians who wanted to annex the Kaliningrad Oblast or at least turn it into a fourth Baltic state.

[tiger]

Another version:

http://mokslasplius.lt/mokslo-lietuva/files/images/Kalbu-paplitimas.JPG

Source:

http://mokslasplius.lt

[Skomand]

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i294762_schraptter.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/294762_schraptter.jpg.html)

http://s7.directupload.net/file/d/3196/qiyo9eou_jpg.htm

30320


The map shows the settlements of the Insterburg area round 1550 represented by yellow dots. The map itself belongs to the famed Schroetter-Karten-Sammlung (round 1800).
There are 14 maps accompanying this book:
Grischa Vercamer
Siedlungs-, Verwaltungs- und Sozialgeschichte der Komturei Königsberg im Deutschordensland Preußen (13.–16. Jahrhundert)
ISBN 978-3-938400-73-9

They can all be downloaded from here:

http://public.beuth-hochschule.de/~kred/grischa/DVD%20Buch/


Insterburg taxpayers in 1554 and 1564:

These names are very clear evidence of the strong German presence at the beginning of the settlement of the Große Wildnis. The names - almost exclusively German -in 1554 are:
1. Hans Braun
2.Hans Teckelburck
3. Merthen Krüger
4.Barthel Frenzell
5.Hans Rickerling
6. Jacoff Topper
7. Jacoff Horrn
8. Matz Topper
9 Jonell Plackste
10. Jonell Schneider
11. Caspar Schuster
12. Valthen Hoffmann
13. Valthen Bair
14. Gabriel Schneuder
15. Dautzmann (Deutschmann)
16. der alte Sczusulce
17. Hans Dunckell
18. der Schirmacher
19. Matz Hoffmann
20. der junge Schuschulis
21. Lorenz Dreher


in 1564 Lithuanians appear, but the names are still overwhelmingly German

1. Christian Braun
2. Hans Teckelburck
3. Bartel Frentzell
4. die Mertenische
5. Breuer
6. Hans Rockerlinck
7. Jacob Schuster
8. Jannel Blackstat
9. Jannel Schneider
10. Casper Schuster
11. Jacob Topfer
12. Valtin Hoffemann
13. Gabrigel Schneider
14. Deutschmann
15. Melicher Dirbach
16. Gorge Schuster
17. Gorge Schmit
18. Zzulke
19. Fleischeuer
20. Kleinschmidt
21. Dunckell
22. Peter von Suginn
23. Merthin Schneider
24. der Rothgerber
25. der Hutter
26. der Sattler
27. Christian Braun
28. Kupschell
29. Gritzus
30. Staschus
31. Jacob Schneider
32. Bottiger
33. Barbusch
34. Mickolaus Budenbecker
35. der alte Hoffmann
36. Hanusch Gerber
37. Hanusch der Korsener
38. Matzisch Rothgerber
39. Jannel Sameit
40. Janus Zeschky
41. Wilnawischkenn
42. Greger Bretschneider
43. Greger Schuster
44. Ruschky
45. Schmalgarbenn
46. Breuer
47. Stanis Schmidt
48. Gorge Stantzun
49. Klein Ziegeler
50. Stepann
51. Jacob der Schneider
52. Leinweber Hanns
53. Batzusch
54. Romann
55. Scheptell
56. Merthin Schuster
57. Michel Zimmerman

[tiger]

Insterburg taxpayers in 1554 and 1564:

These names are very clear evidence of the strong German presence at the beginning of the settlement of the Große Wildnis. The names - almost exclusively German

Lithuanian maps also mark greater German language insertions in several cities including Įsturis/Insterburg:

http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/mazojilietuva16n.htm

[Skomand]

Lithuanian maps also mark greater German language insertions in several cities including Įsturis/Insterburg:

http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/mazojilietuva16n.htm


There can be no language insertions because (round 1550!) there are the yellow dots that mark a settlement and outside of the dots there is nothing: woods, meadows and rivers etc don't speak in a human tongue.

[tiger]

There can be no language insertions because (round 1550!) there are the yellow dots that mark a settlement and outside of the dots there is nothing: woods, meadows and rivers etc don't speak in a human tongue.

Does that mean that except of those few German settlements alongside the Pregel river the land was totally uninhabited in the XVI century, or is just a lack in the statistics? When exacly was the peak of Lithuanian migration in Eastern Prussia?

[Skomand]

Does that mean that except of those few German settlements alongside the Pregel river the land was totally uninhabited in the XVI century, or is just a lack in the statistics? When exacly was the peak of Lithuanian migration in Eastern Prussia?

1466 is a key date: peace treaty of Melno. Now the Lithuanians arrived, partly recruited by the Order, partly deserting Lithuania. They cultivated what was called the "Große Wildnis" (the Great Wilderness), uninhabited woodland, a buffer zone between the crusaders and Lithuania.
Some old settlements in the wilderness were Tilsit, Insterburg, Schloßberg ... with a population of assimilated Old Prussians and Germans, they continued to exist and harboured the Prussian administration and German craftsmen. Lithuanians were predominantly peasants.
Round 1550 the major emigration wave of Lithuanians (estimated at a total of 1/1500 families) was over. From now on the descendants of these settlers populated what was to become Prussian-Lithuania.
When the Great Plague struck in 1709, the population had grown to about 300 000 people, overwhelmingly Lithuanian with areas up to 100 per cent Lithuanian.
After the plague, which had a devastating effect on Lithuanian numbers, the Prussian king called in Salzburgers, Hessians etc who completely changed the ethnic make-up of the land, this was the beginning of Germanisation.

Therefore the ethnographic map that says something like "100 per cent Lithuanian" or "Lithuanian majority" is only a fair description of the ethnic composition of Prussian-Lithuania at a later stage, say round 1700. Claiming this composition for 1500 is wrong and blurs the fact that Nadruvians, Scalovians, Sudovians and finally Germans had been there before Lithuanians.

30369

All that is white in this map (for instance Samogitia) was inhabited. The rest is the Great Wilderness round 1400.

http://img3.picload.org/image/aoiigrc/kuhnsiedlung.jpg


http://picload.org/image/aoiigrc/kuhnsiedlung.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30369&d=1363472234

[tiger]

All that is white in this map (for instance Samogitia) was inhabited. The rest is the Great Wilderness round 1400.

The second map which I attached was clear: XVII century. Nobody was talking here about 1400 or 1500. Anyway, do you have the real statistics that would approve your previous statement:


The church records show that between the 16th/18th century Lithuanian was more widespread than is shown in all the maps above.

[Skomand]

The second map which I attached was clear: XVII century. Nobody was talking here about 1400 or 1500. Anyway, do you have the real statistics that would approve your previous statement:

"Round 1400" is the major reference point when you talk about the settlement of what was to become "Prussian-Lithuania" later: the point when it was the least inhabited.
It has been established in the most authoritative study of the area by the Mortensen couple:

Hans Mortensen und Gertrud Mortensen: Die Besiedlung des nordöstlichen Ostpreußens bis zum Beginn des 17.Jahrhunderts.

Band 1: Die preußisch-deutsche Siedlung am Westrand der Großen Wildnis um 1400. Leipzig, 1937
Band 2: Die Wildnis im östlichen Preußen, ihr Zustand um 1400 und ihre frühere Besiedlung. Leipzig 1938
--------
Band 3: could not be published in 1938 due to Nazi censorship (after all it proved that the area had been up to 100 per cent inhabited by Lithuanians)
in the near future it will be published as

Jähnig, Bernhart und Vercamer, Grischa: Hans und Gertrud Mortensen: Die Besiedlung des nordöstlichen Ostpreußen bis zum Beginn des 17. Jahrhunderts. Die Einwanderung der Litauer nach Ostpreußen.

There are no "real statistics". What I said was in reference to a line that I can see in volume I of "Mazosios Lietuvos Enciklopedija": the southernmost line of the use of Lithuanian in church (irrespective of the percentage of speakers).
From west to east the line runs through the towns of:

Sventapile - Zintai - Ylava - Barstinas - Lagagarbis - Barciai - Ungura - Kuciai - Gurniai
( more or less meandering along the Potsdam line, accident? )

[tiger]

There are no "real statistics". What I said was in reference to a line that I can see in volume I of "Mazosios Lietuvos Enciklopedija": the southernmost line of the use of Lithuanian in church (irrespective of the percentage of speakers).
From west to east the line runs through the towns of:

Sventapile - Zintai - Ylava - Barstinas - Lagagarbis - Barciai - Ungura - Kuciai - Gurniai
( more or less meandering along the Potsdam line, accident? )

So is the green line in this map:

http://www.mazoji-lietuva.lt/graphics/pictures/1287410619-709515819.jpg

[Jarl]

These names are very clear evidence of the strong German presence at the beginning of the settlement of the Große Wildnis. The names - almost exclusively German -in 1554 are:

Interesting. Zechshky Ruschky Barbusch and Batzusch soud Slavic.



Anyway, I think it would be interesting to see whether Lithuanian was spoken by majorite West of the Teztner line. Before XVIIIth century, and if yest then how far.


I also wonder what do they mean by the furthest extent regardless of percentage. The percentage surely must have been high if there were specifically Lithuanian services in those parises. It would be more interesting to see a map where they simply point each such parish to check whether this furthest extent line includes Lithuanian enclaves.



Sventapile - Zintai - Ylava - Barstinas - Lagagarbis - Barciai - Ungura - Kuciai - Gurniai


I wonder whether the communists decided to divide East Prussia across old ethnic borders, at least in part? It might well be so, although by 1945 Polish settlement did not reach Goldap and Angerburg. I think the last remaining Polish-speaking Masurian villages were a fair 10 km or so South of the line:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Polska-dialekty.png/300px-Polska-dialekty.png

Lithuanian was spoken for quite long round Dubienniki and Zytkiejmy, most likely up to 45 as well.

[Skomand]

So is the green line in this map:

http://www.mazoji-lietuva.lt/graphics/pictures/1287410619-709515819.jpg

Yes, this line is in the book and the comment reads:

baznyciose vartojamos lietuviu kalbos pieciausia riba XVI -XVII a.

[Skomand]

Interesting. Zechshky Ruschky Barbusch and Batzusch soud Slavic.
This study deals with the Slavs:
Grzegorz Bialunski: Bevölkerung und Siedlung im ordensstaatlichen und herzoglichen Preußen im Gebiet der Großen Wildnis bis 1568 (Sonderschrift 109), Verein für Familienforschung in Ost- und Westpreußen e.V., Hamburg 2009



Anyway, I think it would be interesting to see whether Lithuanian was spoken by majorite West of the Teztner line. Before XVIIIth century, and if yes then how far.

Sventapile, Zintai, Ylava, Barstynas are apskriciu miestai/parishes on the map, like Angerburg/Unguru. The evidence should be in their church records.



I also wonder what do they mean by the furthest extent regardless of percentage. The percentage surely must have been high if there were specifically Lithuanian services in those parises. It would be more interesting to see a map where they simply point each such parish to check whether this furthest extent line includes Lithuanian enclaves.

"furthest extent regardless of percentage" these are my words, since I don't trust this encyclopedia too much and in newer maps we see how weak Lithuanians are in the neighbouring places.

This area was Old Prussian and German, but not Lithuanian.
http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/sventapile.htm





I wonder whether the communists decided to divide East Prussia across old ethnic borders, at least in part? It might well be so, although by 1945 Polish settlement did not reach Goldap and Angerburg. I think the last remaining Polish-speaking Masurian villages were a fair 10 km or so South of the line:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Polska-dialekty.png/300px-Polska-dialekty.png
Lithuanian was spoken for quite long round Dubienniki and Zytkiejmy, most likely up to 45 as well.

With Masurians in mind, that's possible, but not with Lithuanians south of the Memel in mind.

[Jarl]

This study deals with the Slavs:
Grzegorz Bialunski: Bevölkerung und Siedlung im ordensstaatlichen und herzoglichen Preußen im Gebiet der Großen Wildnis bis 1568 (Sonderschrift 109), Verein für Familienforschung in Ost- und Westpreußen e.V., Hamburg 2009

Sventapile, Zintai, Ylava, Barstynas are apskriciu miestai/parishes on the map, like Angerburg/Unguru. The evidence should be there.

"furthest extent regardless of percentage" these are my words, since I don't trust this encyclopedia too much and in newer maps we see how weak Lithuanians are in the neighbouring places.

This area was Old Prussian and German, but not Lithuanian.
http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/sventapile.htm


With Masurians in mind, that's possible, but not with Lithuanians south of the Memel in mind.

Thanks for the literature tip. The border was agreed at Potsdam after USSR proposed to divide East Prussia however this seemed like an arbitrary divide along one of the paralells. I now actually think this had nothing to do with any previous ethnic or cultural boundaries. They drew pretty much a smooth line from the northernmost tip round Wizajny all the way to Braniewo.

[link]

Interesting. Zechshky Ruschky Barbusch and Batzusch soud Slavic.

What do they mean?

Lithuanian has equivalents too:
Ruschky - ručkė, literally means "brownish" but also: "heath-cock", "a brown colored pig", "a coat made of rough cloth", "a toad"
Barbusch - barbus "a person who whines, gobbles, mumbles a lot"
Batzusch - bačius "a shoe-maker"

[Jarl]

What do they mean?

Lithuanian has equivalents too:
Ruschky - ručkė, literally means "brownish" but also: "heath-cock", "a brown colored pig", "a coat made of rough cloth", "a toad"
Barbusch - barbus "a person who whines, gobbles, mumbles a lot"
Batzusch - bačius "a shoe-maker"

I said they sound Slavic not that they are. For instance Ruschky and Zeschky clearly stem out from the whole list having what appears to be a typical Slavic adj ending. The ending sky shky is not really cke ćke. Ruschky sounds like a form of Russky - a Ruthenian.

In Polish there are or there used to be surnames like Bacek, Bacia, Backowski, Backów, Bacowic, Bacula, Bacusz, Bacyński. Bacek, Batzka, Batzke. The stem of the word - Baca or Baćka means "shepeherd". Perhaps they stem from the same root as Baćka Batiuszka - an Eastern Slavic term for father, though this I do not know for sure.

Similarily I have come across surnames/names like Barbura and Barbusz. Although this can be also from latin "barbus". I fund that surname in the list of Jewish migrants from the Russian Empire. Along with Barbak and Barbinsky. Barbusz also figured in the list of Russian, I believe, partisans of mj Vasilij Michajlovic Kozlov and I found it in Slovenia too.

Zeschky sounds like Żeśki, Ześki - more less vigorous, fresh.

[link]

I said they sound Slavic not that they are. For instance Ruschky and Zeschky clearly stem out from the whole list having what appears to be a typical Slavic adj ending. The ending sky shky is not really cke ćke. Ruschky sounds like a form of Russky - a Ruthenian.AFAIK German sch (http://www.pauljoycegerman.co.uk/pronounce/audio/schlaf.wav) is pronounced as ʃ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palato-alveolar_sibilant)[sh] rather than [sk], so Lithuanian ručkė [rutshkė] (ė is pronounced like something in between i and e) would be closer to the original than "Russky" would.

[Skomand]

Another criterion for assessing the Lithuanian settlement is the expansion of the "Lithuanian house". Yet, I haven't seen any map of it so far. It's also too controversial, "pots are no people".

[Skomand]

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i295735_karte9b-besiedlung-um-1540-nach-a-mtern-02.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/295735_karte9b-besiedlung-um-1540-nach-a-mtern-02.jpg.html)

Prussian-Lithuanian settlements round 1540.
All the names of the tax-payers have been preserved. They are listed in these books.

- Hans Heinz Diehlmann (Hrsg.): Die Türkensteuer im Herzogtum Preußen 1540. Band 2: Memel, Tilsit. (Sonderschrift 88/2), 331 S. u. 2 Karten. Verein für Familienforschung in Ost- und Westpreußen e.V., Hamburg 2007 (flächendeckendes Namensregister der steuerzahlenden Bevölkerung)

- Hans Heinz Diehlmann (Hrsg.): Die Türkensteuer im Herzogtum Preußen 1540, Band 3: Ragnit, Insterburg, Saalau, Georgenburg. (Sonderschrift 88/3), Verein für Familienforschung in Ost- und Westpreußen e.V., 88/3, Hamburg 2008

[Jarl]

AFAIK German sch (http://www.pauljoycegerman.co.uk/pronounce/audio/schlaf.wav) is pronounced as ʃ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palato-alveolar_sibilant)[sh] rather than [sk], so Lithuanian ručkė [rutshkė] (ė is pronounced like something in between i and e) would be closer to the original than "Russky" would.

Yes, that is true. And probably more likely given the location. But I never argued they sound "more Slavic than Lithuanian". I merely pointed out they might be Slavic.


Prussian-Lithuanian settlements round 1540.
All the names of the tax-payers have been preserved. They are listed in these books.

- Hans Heinz Diehlmann (Hrsg.): Die Türkensteuer im Herzogtum Preußen 1540. Band 2: Memel, Tilsit. (Sonderschrift 88/2), 331 S. u. 2 Karten. Verein für Familienforschung in Ost- und Westpreußen e.V., Hamburg 2007 (flächendeckendes Namensregister der steuerzahlenden Bevölkerung)

- Hans Heinz Diehlmann (Hrsg.): Die Türkensteuer im Herzogtum Preußen 1540, Band 3: Ragnit, Insterburg, Saalau, Georgenburg. (Sonderschrift 88/3), Verein für Familienforschung in Ost- und Westpreußen e.V., 88/3, Hamburg 2008

Excellent map Skomand! Thanks for sharing! I have given this subject some more time. And actually the current border does more less follow the ethnic boundary. I think it can hardly be a coincidence.


From what I know the fairly solid Masur settlement reached the line Dubenningken-Goldap-Nordenburg. Most of Kreis Angerburg was predominantly Masurian until XIXth century. There were some Lithuanians in the city itself, but mixed Lithuanian-Masurian settlements in which Lithuanian element was strong began further to the North at the Angerburg-Darkehmen border. In the first half of XIX century there were still some 3500 Poles in and a few hundred Lithuanians in Kreis Angerburg. Angerburg was most affected by germanisation.

In 1825, according to census, Poles (Masurs) constituted:

Lyck - 88,8%
Lötzen - 86,2%
Sensburg - 85,6%
Neidenburg - 92,8%
Marggrabowa/Oletzko - 79,9% (in 1825 this was definitely higher)
Ostreode - 63,8%
Jansbork/Pisz - 93,0%
Ortelsburg - 92,8%
Angerburg - 57,1% (seems low, but Angerburg had some old German settlement too)


Im not sure about Goldap. In Darkehmen, Gerdauen and Rastembork there were only single parishes (in the 1st case often mixed-Lithuanian). The full extent of the colonisation with a map is given here:

http://www.wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra/doccontent?id=6173&from=FBC

By a XIXth century Polish-Masurian writer and ethnologist - Wojciech Kętrzyński. In fact Kętrzyński was born Adalbert von Winkler and could not speak Polish at all, but he later realised that his family was of Polish noble ancestry and became a passionate defender of the Masurian cause.

http://www.emazury.com/images/ludzie/wojciech_ketrzynski_b.jpg


In contrast to Angerburg, Darkehmen was predominantly Lithuanian up to XIXth century, and only in the South there were some Masurian-Lithuanian and Masurian parishes like Szabinen. Goldap was more less half/half still by the early XIXth century there were still over 3000 Lithuanains and Masurs in the country. Up to XXth century Polish boundary reclined onto the Czarne-Soldany line, as shown here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnic_map_East_Prussia_1907.jpeg

So by about 1905 Masurian element shifted from the Angerburg-Darkehmen border onto Angerburg-Lotzen. But in the neighbouring Goldap it proved more resistant. By 1945, afaik, the boundary reclined even further into Northern Lotzen and Lyck.






I am quite positive that by 1825 Poles and Lithuanians still shared a common boundary all the way from Nordenbork to Dubienniki. So judging by the situation in 1945, it would seem that the Lithuanians had been germanised to far greater extent.



In 1825

Darkehmen (without the city) - 18,315 German 2,970 Lithuanians 478 Poles

Goldap (without the city) - 14,524 Germans 3,804 Poles 3,546 Lithuanians

Angerburg (without the city) - 12,297 Poles 9,105 Germans 66 Lithuanians

[Jarl]

By 1945, afaik, the boundary reclined even further into Northern Lotzen and Lyck.

Actually I was wrong here. There were still Polish-speakers in a handful of villages in Southern Angerburg and Goldap in 45 and after.

[Skomand]

Might be of interest in that context:

Gustav Gisevius: Die polnische Sprachfrage in Preußen. Leipzig 1845

http://books.google.de/books?id=bMkAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA112&dq=litthauisch&hl=de&ei=06fUTOLzNJa8jAf1oeXOCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAzhG#v=onepage&q=litthauisch&f=false

[Jarl]

Might be of interest in that context:

Gustav Gisevius: Die polnische Sprachfrage in Preußen. Leipzig 1845

http://books.google.de/books?id=bMkAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA112&dq=litthauisch&hl=de&ei=06fUTOLzNJa8jAf1oeXOCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAzhG#v=onepage&q=litthauisch&f=false



Yes. This more less confirms what Kętrzyński wrote. By very early XIX century the last remaining Polish church services in Kreis Gerdauen were cancelled and the only parish where Polish was oficially still a spoken language was Żabiny. Gisewius gives very interesting stats from 1834 37 and 40 on p 62 for the whole Southern East Prussia. Interestingly the numbers stay the same indicating predominant Polish element, however only in Angerburg the dwindle very rapidly. I wonder why only there...




But Gisewius write that by 1834 there were only Lithuanian masses in Gewaiten and Mehlkehmen in Goldap - can that be true? I read that Sabinen was a mixed parish, so was Gurnen, Goldap, Dubienniki. Did the Lithuanian element recede from there already by 1834? What was the Lithuanian language border in Ostpreussen by 1945?

[Skomand]

please delete

[Minde]

The most pointless thread on the forum

[Skomand]

And why would you say that? If you find no arguments your remark stands as the most pointless contribution to this thread.

[Migla]

The most pointless thread on the forum

actually one of the most informative, least trolled on threads.