Discrimination of Russians in the Baltic States

[Hors]

A comprehensive yet concise study by James Hughes

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/643/1/Hughes.JCMS.preproof1.2005.pdf

[Hors]

International and European organizations (including Council of Europe) acknowledge and condemn discrimination of Russians/Russophones in the Baltic States.

Here I'm going to post official reports of such organizations, as well as articles confirming non-European nature of Estonians and Latvians as evidenced by their discrimination of ethnic minorities.

[Hors]

http://www.developmentandtransition.net/index.cfm?module=ActiveWeb&page=WebPage&DocumentID=586

Estonia and Latvia have been described as cases of ‘ethnic democracy’, where the state has been captured by the titular ethnic group and then used to promote ‘nationalising’ (see box) policies and discrimination against Russophone minorities. The ‘rationality’ of such policy regimes is often stressed, as exclusivist citizenship and language policies allow the reproduction of power by titular ethnic groups through a near-monopoly of career opportunities in government, public administration, the professions, and the economy – especially through privatisation. In Lithuania, where the titular nationality was an overwhelming majority, a so-called ‘zero-option’ of a civic and inclusive citizenship for all Soviet citizens resident in the state was implemented. In contrast, in Estonia and Latvia where the ethnic balance was much closer, and the perception of threat for the titular nationalists was much greater, citizenship was reconstructed along ethno-national lines.

The Russophones of Estonia and Latvia are one of the largest minority groups in Europe. Many Russophones have been denied citizenship and are stateless (Table 1 and Table 2). According to EU data, just prior to the enlargement of May 2004 over 523,00 (22.4 per cent) of the 2.34 million population of Latvia were stateless, and in Estonia the corresponding figure was 172,000 (12.5 per cent) of a population of 1.37 million (EU, 2002). While many Russophones migrated to Estonia and Latvia in the decade after 1945, in Latvia in particular there is a much longer settled Russophone population. While the Soviet-era migration was planned and reflected a different systemic logic, migrants were attracted by the better than average socio-economic conditions in Estonia and Latvia, and the cultural proximity to Europe. Significant numbers of Russophones also originated as pensioners from the Soviet military.


Sophisticated and extensive policy regimes of discrimination have been established in both states based on restrictions under three policy pillars - citizenship, language, and participation. These policies are constrained only by economic dependence on Russophone labour, and international criticism. Such ethnic privileging and discrimination must be understood in the context of two important factors. Firstly, both titular ethnic groups experienced a half century of Soviet repression and occupation. Secondly, the influx of large numbers of Russophone migrants in the first decades of occupation, partly as an attempt to ‘sovietise’ Estonia and Latvia, dramatically shifted the ethnic balance. By the time of independence in 1991, and despite widespread Russophone support for independence, the political mood among the titular ethnic groups was dominated by nationalists who were against a Lithuanian-style ‘zero option’, as such a policy, assuming an ethnification of politics, would have meant that ethnic Estonian and Latvian elites would have been compelled to share decision-making on the political, economic and nation-building aspects of transition with Russophones. In effect, the policies of discrimination were a kind of collective punishment, as the Russophone minority was blamed and mistrusted because of Soviet policies.

[EWtt]

According to European Network of Excellence organized by a group of 45 universities publication the alleged discrimination of the Russian-speaking population in Estonia has served as a pretext of trying to lock the region within the sphere of influence of Russia. Moscow's attempts to take political advantage over the issue of the Russophone minority in Estonia have been successful as Kremlin has used every international forum where the claims of the violations of human rights in Estonia have been presented.[25]

According to the representatives of the Russian speaking communities in Estonia the most important form of discrimination in Estonia is not ethnic, but rather language-based.[26]

The 1993 United Nations Human Rights Council 48th Session's Mission on the situation of human rights in Estonia and Latvia found no evidence of discrimination along ethnic or religious grounds. Also, the 2008 United Nations Human Rights Council report noted the existence of political will by the Estonian State authorities to fight the expressions of racism and discrimination in Estonia.[26]

A number Russian activists continue to allege job, salary and housing discrimination on account of Estonian-language requirements. Russian government officials and parliamentarians echo these charges in a variety of forums. Such claims have become more frequent during times of political disagreements between Russia and these countries and waned when the disagreements have been resolved.[27][28][29][30][31]

Both the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) mission in Estonia and the OSCE High Commissioner on National Minorities have declared that they cannot find a pattern of human rights violations or abuses in Estonia. [32]

Amnesty International, in its 2006 report, claimed that Russian-speaking linguistic minority living in Estonia often find themselves de facto excluded from the labour market and educational system. The report says that the current policies fail to constitute a coherent framework within which these rights can be guaranteed for such persons. Amnesty International cites as evidence the high unemployment rate — 12.9% in 2005 — among people belonging to Russian-speaking linguistic minority, in contrast to only 5.3% among ethnic Estonians during the same period.[33] However, The Economist says the Amnesty International report is "a bad piece of work" which is both ahistorical and unbalanced, and criticized the organization's use of limited resources as bizarre when there are real human rights abuses in Belarus and Russia.[34]

According to veteran German author, journalist and Russia-correspondent Gabriele Krone-Schmalz, there is deep disapproval of everything Russian in Estonia. She contends that the alleged level of discrimination regarding ethnic Russians in Estonia would have posed a barrier to acceptance into the EU; however, Western media gave the matter very little attention.[35] However the European Commission conducted close monitoring of these countries compliance with the acquis in regard to minority rights prior to accession to the EU, the Commission concluded that there is no evidence that these minorities are subject to discrimination.[36]

The European Centre for Minority Issues has also examined Estonia's treatment of its Russophone minority. In its conclusion, the centre notes that while all international organisations agree that no forms of systematic discrimination towards the Russian-speaking population can be observed and praises the efforts made thus far in amendments to laws on education, language and the status of non-citizens, there nevertheless remains the issue of the large number of such non-citizens.[37] As of May 2, 2009, 103 999, or 7.6%[23], of Estonia's population remain non-citizens, dropping from 30% in the 1990s.[22]

The think-tank Development and Transition, sponsored by the United Nations, published an article in 2005 alleging Latvia and Estonia employ a "sophisticated and extensive policy regime of discrimination" against their respective Russophone populations[38]; however, Development and Transition also published a responding article disputing those allegations as simplistic, particularly the conclusion that "in the absence of an end to discrimination and a state commitment to integration," Russophones will "seek justice through violence, or will exit by out-migration", given that the majority of Russophones were already citizens[39]. Development and Transition also published a counterpoint article disputing those allegations as simplistic, particularly the conclusion that "in the absence of an end to discrimination and a state commitment to integration," Russophones will "seek justice through violence, or will exit by out-migration" — questionable, given that the majority of Russophones were already citizens[40].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Russians_in_Estonia

[finironcross]

The Baltic states have nothing to be ashamed of. The Russians took from them everything for over 40 years.

[SwordoftheVistula]

It's their own country, so what's the problem? If things are that bad for Russians there, they can go to...Russia

[Tabiti]

And what is your attitude towards all the immigrants in Russia nowadays?

[Inese]

Estonia and Latvia have been described as cases of ‘ethnic democracy’, where the state has been captured by the titular ethnic group
Hm yes and where is the problem??? :mad: Are you a internationalist?? You know every European country should be a ethnic democracy!! :coffee: Ethnic minoritys can move out ------ like Russians out of Latvia! You are not welcome in our country!! I will never set a foot on Russian ground again and i dont want Russian dirty feet in my country no more need for discussion!!

[Redar14]

Poles from lithuania have worse problems than Russians from Latvia or Estonia. Lithuanian chauvinistic government forbids use polish surnames, destroy polish schools and forbids bilingual street names. In lithuania anti- polish hate are cool. I'm not surprised this behavior because lithuanians is the most primitive and crude nation in Europe.

I think that Poles and Russians should create alliance against baltic haters!




Anti Polish reality show in lithuania:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa9C643IZsY

[Mordid]

I think that Poles and Russians should create alliance against baltic haters!

Are you serious? :ranger:

[Joe McCarthy]

This sort of thing worries me. If, say, Estonia ever roughs up its Russian population and Russia sends in the army NATO could end up in WW3 over an ethnic bar fight. Given that Russian power could grow in coming years, the danger of such a scenario will increase.

[Whiteruthenian]

Anti Polish reality show in lithuania:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa9C643IZsY
Top Comments:
Obecna Litwa to nie prawdziwa Litwa, to Żmudź, prawdziwa Litwa to Białoruś.

And that's how we troll! Cheers, pals! :cheers:

[Redar14]

Are you serious? :ranger:


Yes of course! Lithuania is the most anti- polish state on the World!

[Onychodus]

Given that Russian power could grow in coming years, the danger of such a scenario will increase
doubt it. russian population will be decreased to 109 millions by 2050 year

[Whiteruthenian]

doubt it. russian population will decrease to 109 millions by 2050 yearEconomical success is the ground for a country's influence and military strength, size of its population is a secondary factor.

[Redar14]

Finns aren't problems with Swedes and respect their! Poles and Russians from Baltic states are discriminated and persecuted.

[Onychodus]

Economical success is the ground for a country's influence and military strength, size of its population is a secondary factor.

there will not be any economical succeses without labour population and this is what russia needs foremost

[link]

Poles from lithuania have worse problems than Russians from Latvia or Estonia. Lithuanian chauvinistic government forbids use polish surnames, destroy polish schools and forbids bilingual street names. In lithuania anti- polish hate are cool. I'm not surprised this behavior because lithuanians is the most primitive and crude nation in Europe.

I think that Poles and Russians should create alliance against baltic haters!

Anti Polish reality show in lithuania:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa9C643IZsYOh you poor thing! Nasty Lithuanians are not willing to have their country polonized - savages indeed, how dare they!!!

Seriously though. "Crudest in Europe" - is that the best you can do? Pf.. I have to say that you are not very good at insulting people :p
I mean, calling us the biggest savages in Europe is more like complimenting us than telling us off :D


Back on topic now.
Incidentally, two days ago I happened to stumble upon this post while googling "Lithuanian genetics", seems rather noteworthy:


I have noticed much dislike towards Poles here by some Lithuanian users and have always wondered why. What is reasons that Lithuanians hate us so much? I have never encountered dislike towards Lithuanians in Poland.
Putting history aside, new problems are popping up in the relations of Poland and Lithuania. Ethnic minorities. Of all Poles living ABROAD, Polish minority in Lithuania, I could say, has the best living conditions compared to any other country in the world (I don't mean the economical, as it's really bad for all of us), but they're still saying that we're oppressing them and the rights of Polish minority are ignored. I can tell you that the "Students cart" of a Lithuanian is 3310 LTL, while that of minorities is 15% bigger, so a Polish student gets a cart containing 3806 LTL. Even when Lithuania has 40 times less Poles than USA has, we still have the biggest number of Polish schools, where you can get education in Polish language.

Now you might have heard about the "W" problem in Lithuania, where Poles are demanding their names on passports to be written in their alphabet (imagine if Chinese or Russians would be demanding the same, how it will be possible to identify a citizen?), also they demand to write streets in both languages, Polish and Lithuanian? But acording to the constitution, which should be respected, we can't do that and what if we do that, what will be next?

Here's an example of street names, don't you think it's absurd since the Lithuanian one can be clearly read by anyone, but not by a Pole?
http://g.diena.lt/00/34/639edb.jpg

Firstly, I'd like to say that we are a diverse nation, as diverse as any other, so I'm not speaking in the name of ALL Lithuanians. But such phrases as "we are brotherly nations" or "there are no problems between both of us" would only show ignorance of past and nowadays political affairs.

The reasons are complex, but I will try to name them shortly.
As you know, or might not know, the "history schools" in both of our countries are different and in some aspects, various interpretations differ like black and white, so there there will always be a Pole laughing when Lithuanian tells his truth and vice-versa.

We can start from early Christianisation till nowadays and with that "Christianisation" came the Polonization, hundreds of years Lithuanian culture was being destroyed, but Poles like to speak for us and tell that those years were the best in our and their history, not minding our opinion. Please remember that the aim of every nationalist is a state covering ethnic nation. What is more, there are groups of Poles who tend to say that all those "achievements" during the commonwealth is only of a Polish nation also stating that all those wars (even including the 1410!) are the achievements of Poland, which is actually absurd.

Enough about the old days, the MOST painful point in history with Poland is Vilnius occupation. During the 1920 and 1939 years, what I bet you won't read in any Polish book, they tortured, killed and humiliated the Lithuanian citizens in Vilnius territory, not for any other reason, but because they were Lithuanians, closed Lithuanian organisations, confiscated Lithuanian books, magazines and so on. For the Lithuanian activity, many Lithuanian activists, priests and others were imprisoned. Even after we regained our historical capital, "Armia Krajowa" continued the genocide of Lithuanians mostly in the "post-occupated" areas, which I'm sure Ukrainians could prove as well as they suffered that. I know, I know, it's history, we have to live with it, maybe it would be fine, but Polish government and people of Poland still didn't acknowledge it and some still feel the need of annexing Vilnius (and other interwar lands) to Poland (acording to the poll in Poland). But how are you reasoning it? Poland has no historical, nor ethnical, nor juridical rights to Vilnius, if you will say that Vilnius was widely inhabited by Poles and not by Lithuanians, I will tell you that acording to 1863 released "Atlas of Historic Poland" in St. Petersburg by one of the Russian army captain R. D'Erkert, at that time in Vilnius territory 60% citizens were Lithuanians, almost 12% were Polish and others - Russians, Germans, Tartars, By's and so on. Even in Versailles Conference, researchers declared that there were 20% Poles in Vilnius province. Then acording to German countings in 1943, the number of Poles were not only increased, but even overgrowed the Lithuanian one.

Again returning to the end of WW1, Poland did everything to turn France and Great Britain from Lithuanian aims, so the W. Wilson plans to connect ethnical Lithuanian lands from Gardins province in south till the Koenigsberg (Karaliaučius, nowadays Kaliningrad) collapsed. We had plans to connect the Koenigsberg, even the citizens of it showed the wish to connect with Lithuania, but all that failed as after Poland realized about Lithuanian plans to redislocate army from South-East to the Prussian border, they did an impact to Vilnius (which wasn't in a defence state), they broke the treaty of 1920. And after all that, Poles were the ones who voted AGAINST the Lithuanian independence in 1990.

You say there's no hatred towards Lithuanians?
The Foreign Affairs Minister of Poland Radoslaw Sikorski publicly and officially denied the occupation of Vilnius in 1920 and all the agression, so what can you expect from normal people of Poland if politicians stating that?

Recently I was checking some websites, where regular Poles stating their opinions about Lithuania, I can give you some thoughts: "Lithuanians beggars bowed to Stalin and gained Vilnius, which was stolen from Poles", "Lithuanians are wild Easterners, who were civilised by Poles", those are the softer replicas as examples for you, I just don't want to write all that, as that is low and odd.

I think, I have gone too far into the details, all is hiding under the mentality of both nations, sometimes Poles think they are a better nation than the other (chauvinism), remember the expression (jak litwyn to cham, jak polak to pan) and we Lithuanians are as stubborn as Samogitians.

[Redar14]

Poles in Lithuania:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Poles_in_Lithuania_Barry_Kent.png

Discrimination of Poles in Lithuania:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m2zDs4DsPQ&feature=player_embedded#at=10


Echoes of discrimination of Polish minority in Lithuania


In 2011, the Lithuanian Republic, notable for its rather high standards in defence of human rights, shall chair the OSCE (The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe). At the same time, this country also has its problems in the sphere of intercultural dialogue: its relations with the Polish national minority have recently been quite ambiguous - commented Arthur Dunn.

In early 2010, Thomas Hammarberg, Council of Europe's Commissioner on Human Rights, already addressed Andrius Kubilius in the context of writing Polish surnames in Lithuanian national passports and absence of bilingual topographical inscriptions. "The advisory committee of the Framework Convention [Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, – note of the author] has concluded that in case of Lithuania the absence of bilingual public signs in certain localities is incompatible with the provisions of the Convention. There is a contradiction between the Law on State Language and the Law on National Minorities, which should be resolved," Mr Hammarberg wrote in his publication on the language rights of national minorities.

Shortly before the communication of the Council of Europe's Commissioner on Human Rights with the Lithuanian government, a complaint against discrimination of Polish minority in Lithuania was received by José Manuel Barroso, head of the European Commission. "The Polish minority in Lithuania is discriminated. Poles are not allowed to speak their language in official establishments in the localities, where citizens of Polish origin make up to 80 percent of the population. They are also prohibited to name streets in their language. So you know about this state of affairs, and what should be done to reverse the situation?" asked Waldemar Tomaszewski (Waldemaras Tomashevskis), a European MP and activist of the Poles' Electoral Action in Lithuania in the fall of 2009.

Other European MPs, representing Poland, also addressed the European Commission for similar explanations.

In May 2010, the Association of Poles of Lithuania made a special statement on imposition of fines on citizens for speaking their mother tongue in public places. The document asserted that Lithuania was breaking its obligations under the Framework Convention of the Council of Europe for the Protection of National Minorities. "It should be regretfully ascertained that the Lithuanian Republic, where officials impose fines on citizens for use of their mother tongue, has become a unique precedent in the European Union; it is more and more often mentioned in this context at international forums, which compromises our state," the statement ran. The Association of Poles of Lithuania even opened a special bank account and asked non-indifferent citizens to send money for covering the fines imposed for using the Polish language in public places.

Quite recently, the situation with the rights of the Polish minority in Lithuania has taken a sharper round. On July 6, the European Parliament passed a resolution calling Lithuania to respect the Union's legislation and asking the European Commission to initiate, if required, a special legal procedure against Lithuania. The point is that the special Lithuanian Commission on Ethics (an independent governmental body for supervising bureaucrats' behaviour), announced a "public reprimand" to the European MP Waldemar Tomaszewski by disagreeing with his statements on discrimination of the Polish minority in Lithuania. "This decision and the legislation of the Lithuanian Republic, on which it is based, are contradictory to the legislation of the European Union in the sphere of ensuring the principle of freedom and independence of the members of the European Parliament," the European MPs have ruled.

[Redar14]

Wilno Voivodship before World War 2:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Wilno_Voivodship_1938.png


Quote from Wikipedia:


According to the Polish census of 1931 the Voivodeship was inhabited by 1,276,000 people. Majority of population was Polish (59.7% claimed Polish as their native tongue). Among minorities there were: Belarusians (22.7%), Russians (3.4%), Jews (8.5%) and Lithuanians (5.5%).The population density was 44 persons per km2 (second lowest in Poland, after Polesie Voivodeship).

Following the Polish territorial changes after World War II, a significant part of the Polish population was repatriated to the newly formed People's Republic of Poland as Wilno Voivodeship was split and incorporated into the Lithuanian and Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republics.[4][5] Many encountered difficulties in the repatriation process, and where prevented from leaving.[4] The Polish population that remained in Lithuania were subject to Lithuanization and Sovietization policies.

[Breedingvariety]

I can confirm some Lithuanians hate Poles. Which I never understood. But evidently some Poles hate Lithuanians as well.

Who is right? I think neither side is.

I think Poles in Lithuania are what Russians in Latvia and Estonia are. In Lithuania, Russians are better integrated.

[Redar14]

:coffee: Ethnic minoritys can move out ------ like Russians out of Latvia! You are not welcome in our country!! I will never set a foot on Russian ground again and i dont want Russian dirty feet in my country no more need for discussion!!


Lol Majority inhabitants of Riga and Dźwińsk are Russians, not Latvians! You are only dirty anti - russian pig. Latvia is russian - baltic state and you should respect Russians!

[Redar14]

In Lithuania, Russians are better integrated.


Small lithuanian losers afraid Russian empire and they respect russian minority in Lithuania. :D

[link]

I can confirm some Lithuanians hate Poles. Which I never understood.Clearly, you haven't met the likes of Redar in real life. Well, I have. So I understand perfectly well why some of our fellow countrymen would feel that way.

Gladly, I have met plenty of normal Poles as well, so I personally do not feel that hatred.




Wilno Voivodship before World War 2:

Quote from Wikipedia:
According to the Polish census of 1931 the Voivodeship was inhabited by 1,276,000 people. Majority of population was Polish (59.7% claimed Polish as their native tongue). Among minorities there were: Belarusians (22.7%), Russians (3.4%), Jews (8.5%) and Lithuanians (5.5%).The population density was 44 persons per km2 (second lowest in Poland, after Polesie Voivodeship).

You are getting repetitive, darling. It is generally a good idea to actually read a post you are replying to - would save me the bother of having to repost it :rolleyes:


According to 1863 released "Atlas of Historic Poland" in St. Petersburg by one of the Russian army captain R. D'Erkert, at that time in Vilnius territory 60% citizens were Lithuanians, almost 12% were Polish and others - Russians, Germans, Tartars, By's and so on. Even in Versailles Conference, researchers declared that there were 20% Poles in Vilnius province. Then according to German countings in 1943, the number of Poles has not only increased, but even overgrown the Lithuanian one.

Yeah. Wonder why am I not surprised that after the ethnic cleansing performed by the infamous Armia Krajowa the proportion of Lithuanians in Vilnius shrivelled..



Small lithuanian losers afraid Russian empire and they respect russian minority in Lithuania. :DNah, it's not that. Just goes to show how little you know about our country. Russians being better integrated in Lithuania than Poles has more to do with the fact that they are not behaving themselves in the obnoxious manner that quite a few Poles are.

[Bugarash]

Baltic states are a joke

[link]

Baltic states are a joke...while Bulgarians are so painstakingly serious :swl

Do feel free to elaborate though.

[Waidewut]

Lol Majority inhabitants of Riga and Dźwińsk are Russians, not Latvians! You are only dirty anti - russian pig. Latvia is russian - baltic state and you should respect Russians!

Use proper language, as the official name of Dźwińsk is Daugavpils.
So what if Riga and Daugavpils is loaded with soviet immigrants? They came here illegally as Latvia was illegally occupied by the SU. Why should the Russians be given extra respect? They don't respect Latvians, as like only half of them actually know the language of the country they have migrated.

[The Ripper]

Dear Russians living in the Baltic States since 1940! Putin sez (http://www.riga-life.com/news/news/2-Putin_invites_Ethnic_Russians_back):

http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2008/02/15/putin-threatens-west-with-nukes_5965.jpg

Heim ins Reich! (probably in Russian, though).

[Body And Soul]

Lol Majority inhabitants of Riga and Dźwińsk are Russians, not Latvians! You are only dirty anti - russian pig. Latvia is russian - baltic state and you should respect Russians!

You might be right. The only latvian i know has got a russian father (from Siberia).

[Redar14]

Yeah. Wonder why am I not surprised that after the ethnic cleansing performed by the infamous Armia Krajowa the proportion of Lithuanians in Vilnius shrivelled..



Funny lithuanian propaganda is lie! Armia Krajowa fought only against germans and lithuanian nazi guards "Ypatingasis būrys" and "Lietuvos Vietinė Rinktinė". In Southern part of today's Lithuania Balts always were small minority, this lands belongs to Poles and Belarussians. You are only thieves, I hope that some day Vilnius district WILL BE INDEPENDENT COUNTRY just like Southern Osetia!


Massacre of Polish and Jewish civilians made by lithuanian chauvinists and nazi germans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponary_massacre


According to 1863 released "Atlas of Historic Poland" in St. Petersburg by one of the Russian army captain R. D'Erkert, at that time in Vilnius territory 60% citizens were Lithuanians, almost 12% were Polish and others - Russians, Germans, Tartars, By's and so on. Even in Versailles Conference, researchers declared that there were 20% Poles in Vilnius province. Then according to German countings in 1943, the number of Poles has not only increased, but even overgrown the Lithuanian one.

Lithuanian propaganda. nothing more!

[Redar14]

...while Bulgarians are so painstakingly serious :swl

Do feel free to elaborate though.


Typical lithuanian rabble. :)

[Redar14]

Poles in Lithuania and Vilnus Voivodeship before WW2:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Narodowo%C5%9Bci_b_WKL_1921.jpg/500px-Narodowo%C5%9Bci_b_WKL_1921.jpg

[Mordid]

(Anti-Polish Lithuanian person mode on)One reason why i hate Poland. It has lands which is Lithuanian! Lithuania had those teritories for centuries but Poland like always does something bad for Lithuanians! If not Poland, Lithuania would have been a bigger country! Polish diplomats always tried to do their best to get Lithuania and especially Vilnius into their account(Anti-Polish Lithuanian person mode off).

Aint life a bitch, eh?

[Redar14]

This is appropriate borders of Lithuania.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Roszczenia_litewskie.PNG


Wilno, Soleczniki and Mejszagoła are polish cities!

[Mordid]

Lithuania je Poland

[Mordid]

I can confirm some Lithuanians hate Poles. Which I never understood. But evidently some Poles hate Lithuanians as well.

Who is right? I think neither side is.

I think Poles in Lithuania are what Russians in Latvia and Estonia are. In Lithuania, Russians are better integrated.
Agreed. In my personal experience, I have never met Lithuanians, who hate Poles, nor vice versa. I think it's time for us to get along and forget about all this whatever nonsense. Live the good life. ;)

[Redar14]

Lithuanian "white power" band’s anti-Polish lyrics cause outrage


A Polish minorities MP in Vilnius is taking legal action against a Lithuanian far-right metal band after lyrics in one of their songs describe Poles as being “already hanged”, among other anti-Semitic and anti-Russian sentiments.

/

Dariusz Narkiewicz, an MP for the Election Action for Poles in Lithuania (AWPL) party says the song Salcininku Rajonas (Salcininkai Region) - referring to an area of Lithuania with a large ethnic Polish community - by ‘white power’ metal band Diktatura, expresses hatred for Poles, Jews and Russians.

One verse of the song says: “The last hour has struck for Poles; all Poles are already hanged; Russians lie under the fence; hung Jews are already burning in the furnaces; only true Lithuanians are still alive.”

The band has long tried to shock audiences with aggressively nationalist and offensive lyrics since its formation in the mid-1990s, often blended with a ‘celebration’ of Lithuania's pagan past.

MP Narkiewicz calls the song, “insulting, degrading, sneering” and “an incitement to hatred, discrimination and physical confrontations with persons of other nationalities.”

The MP adds that “recently there have been frequent cases of intolerance against minorities, but this song breaks all boundaries.”

The rights of ethnic Poles in Lithuania are currently a highly emotive subject with the Polish community - which makes up around 4 percent of the country’s 10 million population - campaigning for the right to use Polish spelling in their names on official documents.

A new education law that threatens Polish language teaching in Lithuania has caused further anger.

Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski said earlier that he will not set foot in Lithuania until progress has been made in Polish minority rights.

[link]

...while Bulgarians are so painstakingly serious :swl

Do feel free to elaborate though.Typical lithuanian rabble. :)
Ah! I see you have ran out of semi-intelligible arguments and will now be addressing my humorous remarks which weren't even meant for you (as you might have guessed from the fact that I actually quoted Bugarash rather than you) :)




Lithuanian propaganda. nothing more!
Yes! Lo and behold the world! Savage Lithuanian peasants have managed to subdue Russian army captains and Versailles Conference to spread their propaganda that Vilnius was Lithuanian in the beginning of previous century. To think.. I never knew we were once that influential :icon_lol:



Poles in Lithuania and Vilnus Voivodeship before WW2:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Narodowo%C5%9Bci_b_WKL_1921.jpg/500px-Narodowo%C5%9Bci_b_WKL_1921.jpgThis would certainly be better off at "Post a funny picture thread".

Even you cannot be deluded enough to believe that Kaunas, Jonava or Kedainiai were predominantly Polish at any point during history. Or can you? :eek:

[Fenlander]

The Gypsies are a huge burden upon Romania. The same is to be said with the Russians in Estonia and Latvia (who have little respect for the indigenous Baltic populations). If the 'Russians' have any problems, then they should go running back to 'Mother Russia' and leave the Baltic people to live their lives in peace.

[Redar14]

This would certainly be better off at "Post a funny picture thread".

Even you cannot be deluded enough to believe that Kaunas, Jonava or Kedainiai were predominantly Polish at any point during history. Or can you? :eek:

Before WW2 in Lithuania lived 200 000 Poles, especially Near Lauda river.

[link]

Before WW2 in Lithuania lived 200 000 Poles, especially Near Lauda river.
There's no such river in Lithuania, sweety.



Funny lithuanian propaganda is lie! Armia Krajowa fought only against germans and lithuanian nazi guards "Ypatingasis būrys" and "Lietuvos Vietinė Rinktinė".!You have either been seriously misinformed or are downright lying.

Lithuanian Territorial Defense Force (Lietuvos Vietinė Rinktinė) was NEVER under Nazi command. It was formed of volunteers in 1944. Its leadership was Lithuanian, whereas arms were provided by Germans. The purpose of the Lithuanian Territorial Defense Force was to defend Lithuania against approaching Soviet Army and to defend civilian population in the territory of Lithuania form actions of partisans. LTDF has self disbanded after it was ordered to act under Nazi command.

Can you really blame LTDF for fighting against Armia Krajowa?
"rogue AK troops from the unit of the 5th Vilnian Home Army Brigade (under the command of Zygmunt Szendzielarz "Łupaszko" who was not present at the events) committed a massacre of Lithuanian policemen and civilians, at Dubingiai (Dubinki), where 27 Lithuanians, including women and children were murdered."
But here's the best bit:
"in 1988 he was posthumously awarded the Virtuti Militari, the highest Polish military award, by the Polish government in exile." - lol
So?

Now as for the "Ypatingasis burys", does the fact that there were 50 men who collaborated with Nazis mean that Lithuanians as a nation will now be held accountable for the athrocities Nazis commit? There was collaboration in Poland as well. Should I perhaps start blaming Poles for everything Nazis did? :icon_ask:

Do bear in mind though that Nazis and their collaborators are hated in Lithuania with no less passion than the likes of you are.

[Redar14]

There's no such river in Lithuania, sweety.


HAHAHAHAHA You don't know geography of your country. lol :D :D :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liaud%C4%97

[link]

HAHAHAHAHA You don't know geography of your country. lol :D :D :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liaud%C4%97The link you posted redirects to a wikipedia's article about Liaudė brook, not some mythical Lauda river. So it's not me whose knowledge about geography seems to be lacking.


Seriously, you call that a river? A rather scrawny brook would be a far better name.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/LiaudeRiver001.JPG




But we're straying from the original topic. If you are claiming that Kaunas, Jonava or Kedainiai were predominantly Polish at any point during history, you either need to provide references to back up your claims or else you will be officially declared to have been talking out've your you-know-what :laugh:

[Whiteruthenian]

If the 'Russians' have any problems, then they should go running back to 'Mother Russia' and leave the Baltic people to live their lives in peace."If a Russian once set his foot on a liberated land, there is no power that could push him back!.."

[Hess]

This is stupid. Europeans are Europeans and that's the end of it- any European should be welcome anywhere in Europe. Instead of jumping at each other's throats, we should work together for a better future.

[Redar14]

The link you posted redirects to a wikipedia's article about Liaudė brook, not some mythical Liauda river. So it's not me who's knowledge about geography seems to be lacking.


Seriously, you call that a river? A rather scrawny brook would be a far better name.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/LiaudeRiver001.JPG

Lauda river is long on 40 kilometers!





This region before WW2 was polish land (majority population were polish) under lithuanian occupation:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Kowie%C5%84szczyzna-Lauda.jpg/569px-Kowie%C5%84szczyzna-Lauda.jpg

[link]

This is stupid. Europeans are Europeans and that's the end of it- any European should be welcome anywhere in Europe. Instead of jumping at each other's throats, we should work together for a better future.
Nobody's jumping at Polish or Russian throats for the sole reason that they happened to belong to those particular ethnic groups.
It's when people refuse to respect the culture of a country where they're living at when there's a problem.

[Redar14]

This is stupid. Europeans are Europeans and that's the end of it- any European should be welcome anywhere in Europe. Instead of jumping at each other's throats, we should work together for a better future.

Lithuanians are too stupid to understand this great idea.

[Hess]

Nobody's jumping at Polish or Russian throats for the sole reason that they happened to belong to those particular ethnic groups.
It's when people refuse to respect the culture of a country where they're living at when there's a problem.

Can you honestly say that the Majority of Slavs in Lithuania are refusing to integrate? If so, do you have any statistics to back that up?

[link]

Can you honestly say that the Majority of Slavs in Lithuania are refusing to integrate? If so, do you have any statistics to back that up?I never claimed that it is the majority who are behaving this way or that a few rotten apples spoil the whole barrel. In fact what I mentioned earlier was:


I can confirm some Lithuanians hate Poles. Which I never understood.Clearly, you haven't met the likes of Redar in real life. Well, I have. So I understand perfectly well why some of our fellow countrymen would feel that way.

Gladly, I have met plenty of normal Poles as well, so I personally do not feel that hatred.




Lauda river is long on 40 kilometers!Yes, it's 40km long and 1 meter wide! It's a river not a brook! Nasty Lithuanians mislabelling their natural watercourses! LMAO


This region before WW2 was polish land (majority population were polish) under lithuanian occupation:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Kowie%C5%84szczyzna-Lauda.jpg/569px-Kowie%C5%84szczyzna-Lauda.jpg
All four grandparents of my maternal grandmother were from villages around Vandžiogala (Wedziagola in your map), my paternal grandfather's family moved to Čekiškė (Czekiski in your map) from the other side of Nemunas half a century ago, so I know the region pretty darn well. Even when adding culturally polonized Lithuanians to the number of Poles living there, it doesn't add up to anything close to a half of total population.

As I have already told you earlier, you should either start providing references (preferably from official censuses or other valid sources) to back up your claims or stop making these silly claims altogether, for crying out loud :rolleyes:

[Redar14]

polonized Lithuanians

absurdal lithuanian oxymoron. :p :p I think that 30% population of lithuanians are lithuanized Poles. Even nazi lithuanian "hero" Povilas Plechavičius was lithuanized Pole and his real surname is Paweł Plechowicz. :D

[Olika]

This sort of thing worries me. If, say, Estonia ever roughs up its Russian population and Russia sends in the army NATO could end up in WW3 over an ethnic bar fight. Given that Russian power could grow in coming years, the danger of such a scenario will increase.
oh american xD do not be afraid.you can sleep in peace ;)

[link]

absurdal lithuanian oxymoron. :p :p I think that 30% population of lithuanians are lithuanized Poles. Even nazi lithuanian "hero" Povilas Plechavičius was lithuanized Pole and his real surname is Paweł Plechowicz. :D
What's really absurd is that you are seemingly ignorant of the mass polonization which took place during the years of commonwealth. That's why there are shitloads of Lithuanians who have surnames like Anciukevičius with a root which cannot be anything but Lithuanian (Anciuk-) and a Polish suffix (-evic).

And yet you're acting like you're an expert on Lithuanian-Polish history. Bleh.. :p



Oh yeah, "Povilas" is just as Lithuanian as "Pawel" is Polish - both are derived from the name of this christian dude:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle

[Breedingvariety]

absurdal lithuanian oxymoron. :p :p I think that 30% population of lithuanians are lithuanized Poles. Even nazi lithuanian "hero" Povilas Plechavičius was lithuanized Pole and his real surname is Paweł Plechowicz. :D
The Poles in Vilnius land, Northeastern Poland and Northwestern Belarus are rather Slavicized Lithuanians than Lithuanians being assimilated Poles. It is especially not the case in central Lithuania- Kaunas land.

But if you want Vilnius- fine, but then Western and Northern Poland should go back to Germany.

[Redar14]

What's really absurd is that you are seemingly ignorant of the mass polonization which took place during the years of commonwealth. That's why there are shitloads of Lithuanians with surnames like Anciukevičius with a root which cannot be anything but Lithuanian (Anciuk-) with a Polish suffix (-evic).

And yet you're acting like an expert of Lithuanian-Polish history. Bleh.. :p

Lithuanian Propaganda again.Modern lithuanians are thieves polish lands and history. Your real name are Samogitians because Grand Duchy of Lithuania was polish- belarusian country not Baltic. Polish and Belarusian were official languages
Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

[Redar14]

But if you want Vilnius- fine, but then Western and Northern Poland should go back to Germany.

... and Samogitia should go back to Russia. HAHAHAHA :D :D :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Flag_of_Lithuanian_SSR.svg/600px-Flag_of_Lithuanian_SSR.svg.png

[link]

Lithuanian Propaganda again.No, it's just the mainstream view nowadays based on historical facts. But you, obviously, care little about facts.


Modern lithuanians are thieves polish lands and history. Your real name are Samogitians because Grand Duchy of Lithuania was polish- belarusian country not Baltic. Polish and Belarusian were official languages
Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
It was founded by the Lithuanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanians), one of the polytheistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_mythology) Baltic tribes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_tribes) from Aukštaitija (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auk%C5%A1taitija).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania


... and Samogitia should go back to Russia. HAHAHAHA :D :D :D

...and Redar should go to sleep because he clearly had too much booze tonight :wink

[Redar14]

But agree, Wilno, Soleczniki, Mejszagoła, Duskieniki, Oszmiana are more Polish Cities than Szczecin [Stettin] or Kłodzko.

[Redar14]

Aukštaitija

Auksztota! :)

I think that you must be nice, friendly person but our nations are the worst enemies and I must defend my brothers in Lithuania against lithuanization!

[Waidewut]

But if you want Vilnius- fine, but then Western and Northern Poland should go back to Germany.

Why to Germany? Let North-eastern Poland be part of Lithuania, as it was originally inhabited by Baltic Prussians, the kinfolk of Lithuanians and Latvians :D

[Redar14]

Why to Germany? Let North-eastern Poland be part of Lithuania, as it was originally inhabited by Baltic Prussians, the kinfolk of Lithuanians and Latvians :D

Prussians were original Western Balts not half ugro-finnic Latvians or Lithuanians.

[Flintlocke]

What is the opinion of Russians, Belarussians, Baltics, and others for the era of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth?

[Redar14]

Look out! Albanian troll on the horizon.

[Flintlocke]

Look out! Stupid guy who can't have basic courtesy.

[Hess]

I thought he was Greek?

[Breedingvariety]

Prussians were original Western Balts not half ugro-finnic Latvians or Lithuanians.
When it comes to nations, they are a lot affected by political coincidences the way they form from original tribes. Prussian tribes could have been assimilated in to Lithuanian nation given different political developments. Samogitians were.

And what does "original" is supposed to mean.:rolleyes:

[Mordid]

Look out! Albanian troll on the horizon.
You're not very bright yourself... Poland is Poland, Lithuania is Lithuania. Time to accept it and move on. Nuff said.

[Breedingvariety]

Time to accept it and move it.
Time to accept it and move on. :ranger:

[Mordid]

Time to accept it and move on. :ranger:
My mistake, lol.

[Redar14]

You're not very bright yourself... Poland is Poland, Lithuania is Lithuania. Time to accept it and move on. Nuff said.

Lithuania is Lithuania, Wilno is Poland. Lithuania is enemy for Poland, time to accept it and move on.

[Pallantides]

This is stupid. Europeans are Europeans and that's the end of it- any European should be welcome anywhere in Europe. Instead of jumping at each other's throats, we should work together for a better future.


I'd rather not have Southeast European gangsters living in my country.

[Bugarash]

...while Bulgarians are so painstakingly serious :swl

Do feel free to elaborate though.

it is enough for Russia to send the cab drivers from Moscow and they will invaide all 3 of them:D

[Whiteruthenian]

What is the opinion of Russians, Belarussians, Baltics, and others for the era of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth?I am quite indifferent to it.

[Hess]

I'd rather not have Southeast European gangsters living in my country.

how widespread and common are these "Southeast European gangsters" in Norway? ( keep in mind Albanians and Bosniaks don't count as European)

[Onychodus]

What is the opinion of Russians, Belarussians, Baltics, and others for the era of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth?

it is part of history

[Mordid]

Lithuania is Lithuania, Wilno is Poland. Lithuania is enemy for Poland, time to accept it and move on.
Fuck you, you piece of shit.

[Redar14]

Fuck you, you piece of shit.

Lol. Who are you stupid bastard? You are not real Pole.

[Hess]

I am a real Pole

[Mordid]

Lol. Who are you stupid bastard? You are not real Pole.
I'm Tupac bitch! I have Polish in my blood, then technically I'm Polish by ethnicity. I was born and raised in Poland, so I'm Polish by nationality. I'm as Polish as it get. Just because I dont give a damn about this thread doesn't make me real Polish.

I am a real Pole
I am a real Jew.

[Redar14]

I am a real Pole

Who are you.

[Hess]

it's you mordid?

yup, it's me. I am using two different accounts on here

[Mordid]

its you Mordid?
Yes, it's me Hess. I am using two different accounts on here. One is Mordid, one is Hess.

[Redar14]

Yes, it's me Hess. I am using two different accounts on here. One is Mordid, one is Hess.


HAHAHA typowe Dziecko neo.

Fuck you pseudo-polish crook!

[Talvi]

I love discriminating Russians. It just feels so right and so good!

[Mordid]

HAHAHA typowe Dziecko neo.

Fuck you pseudo-polish crook!
Chodz tu *slap your face*

[Redar14]

Chodz tu *slap your face*

You don't know polish language. :D

[Mordid]

You don't know polish language. :D
And you don't know me. I can read and speak Polish a bit, but I can't write it. I was born and raised in Poland, but lived there until I turned six and came to England for hearing aid. I started to hear very well, so I adapted to learn English language in English school. So, basically, my first language is English than Polish, even though, I have learning difficult.

[sarinana]

You don't know polish language. :D

Have you ever been slapped with a cock?

[Danielion]

This sort of thing worries me. If, say, Estonia ever roughs up its Russian population and Russia sends in the army NATO could end up in WW3 over an ethnic bar fight. Given that Russian power could grow in coming years, the danger of such a scenario will increase.

Make no mistake. The NATO wouldn't likely do anything to save the Baltics in such a scenario.

[The Lawspeaker]

Have you ever been slapped with a cock?

Have you ever had your membership of a forum revoked ?

[sarinana]

Have you ever had your membership of a forum revoked ?

Why would anyone? I am a humble human being. It just happened that I have low tolerance towards ignorance and stupidity. ;)

[The Lawspeaker]

Why would anyone? I am a humble human being. It just happened that I have low tolerance towards ignorance and stupidity. ;)

Could be. But it's not a very bright second post. :rolleyes:

[Alberta1]

Russians treat their minorities pretty bad, they should stop whining really when they live in a glass house.

[Sokol]

Why doesn't Russia just switch off their gas supply? No need for WW3...

[sevruk]

Russians treat their minorities pretty bad, they should stop whining really when they live in a glass house.
lol what? by minority has its own national republics (regions) in which have their own official languages.
I do not know that we should do what was is good treat
Russian in other countries do not have many rights how national minorities in Russia

[sevruk]

Why doesn't Russia just switch off their gas supply? No need for WW3...
Karl, Talvi and other freeze, and we will be boring to read this forum :D

[RussiaPrussia]

Hm yes and where is the problem??? :mad: Are you a internationalist?? You know every European country should be a ethnic democracy!! :coffee: Ethnic minoritys can move out ------ like Russians out of Latvia! You are not welcome in our country!! I will never set a foot on Russian ground again and i dont want Russian dirty feet in my country no more need for discussion!!

youre typical latvian racist. Russians lived in latvia since 100s of years and there are many parts where they are majority and have no right for speaking russian in their own country.

Latvia is a failed state, latvians go to germany like you and russians go to russia its soon going to be inhabited by no one. Then germans and russians gonna come again and make their colonies again.

Why is that so hard to be multi language like switzerland, luxembourg or belgium they are and they are some of the most richest countries in europe combining different cultures. And the baltics are the most poorest regions in europe.

[Hochmeister]

youre typical latvian racist.

^ Inese was a Latvian racist... She committed suicide ... :(

[RussiaPrussia]

^ Inese was a Latvian racist... She committed suicide ... :(

really?

[Hochmeister]

really?

Yes: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39247

She was a beautiful girl. Too bad :(

(...)