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carol
07-26-2012, 02:49 PM
In discussing the Colorado shooting, there are many different topics for discussion, but I would like to focus upon one topic, the heroic response of some men during the shooting at the Colorado movie theatre. These men were reportedly "average" men, ( I would say many men would fight to protect their families and loved ones!) and yet they risked their lives for the people they loved. I would like to honor them.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/07/23/aurora_dark_knight_shooting_the_men_protected_the_ women.html

"The male instinct to rescue and protect kicked in the way it does in less complicated superhero tales. At least three of the 12 victims of the shooting died because they were physically protecting the women they came to the movie with."

What makes a hero? What causes people to risk their lives for others? Please post current stories of people that you know of who rise to the occasion, go above and beyond the call of duty, or have quietly gone about their lives protecting, providing and caring for those they love, without bragging or calling attention to themselves. Please provide your opinions about what causes heroic behavior-is it instinctive? cultural? Please honor your own heroes here. Thank you.

Graham
07-26-2012, 02:56 PM
Heroes and should be commended to the hilt for their brave actions.

carol
07-26-2012, 04:26 PM
Another hero!

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/36049625/ns/today-today_news/t/hero-nanny-badly-burned-saving-boy/#.UBFryY7hDw4

This nanny saved the life of the young boy she cares for, running barefoot through 400 degree fire, to get into his bedroom, and badly burning herself to rescue him.

Very moving video:
http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/36049859

2DREZQ
07-27-2012, 07:21 AM
All true heroism has a few common characteristics;

It involves a large degree of selfless behaviour.

It requires the concious repression of panic and the flight instinct (although it can be argued that protecting ones mate or offspring is an even stronger instinct.)

It involves a large degree of risk of grave injury or death which could be avoided by acting in a different manner.

It is more common than many people assume. We are social creatures and we have a degree of instinct to protect and preserve other members of our "herd".

I remember a few years ago a couple of storied where someone was trapped in a burning vehicle and about to be engulfed. In both stories total strangers risked death and were even injured pulling the victim to safety. In one instance the passenger compartment burst into flames so quickly that the rescuers clothing began to burn as he dragged the other man to safety.

TheNepenthe
07-27-2012, 07:51 AM
At least three of the 12 victims of the shooting died because they were physically protecting the women they came to the movie with

People tend to do stupid things when in love.
But who knows, perhaps they were counting on luck that he the bullet will miss them and in the end, alive and well, they would earn high reputation in the eyes of their females.

Osprey
07-27-2012, 08:15 AM
Its partly stupid, partly heroic.
If their girlfriends forget them after a week and fuck a new man, then i think giving your life is quite a waste.
Otherwise, it was a good thing.

TheNepenthe
07-27-2012, 12:05 PM
Yes, but one cannot know what will she do after. So it's a gamble - and I'd call it stupid because the loss is one's own life for a maybe.

2DREZQ
07-27-2012, 12:20 PM
Yes, but one cannot know what will she do after. So it's a gamble - and I'd call it stupid because the loss is one's own life for a maybe.

You've missed the point entirely. You don't risk your life because you might get laid a lot later. You risk your life to protect the woman that you, as a man, are morally responsible for.

I always said any boy who took my daughter out was signing a blank check with his life for her safety; "To get to her, they had better be stepping over your dead body!"

I have no desire to die violently in a public place. That being said, the only way Godzilla himself is going to get to my wife is after I'm out of ammunition, can't hold my tactical Police knife, and am dead. I'd do the same for anyone I considered to be "under my protection".

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but that's the kind of men I grew up around, and the only kind I really respect as men.

PetiteParisienne
07-27-2012, 12:24 PM
I've been very moved by the stories of the men who protected their ladies in that cinema. Chivalry is not dead.

carol
07-27-2012, 01:59 PM
All true heroism has a few common characteristics;

It involves a large degree of selfless behaviour.

It requires the concious repression of panic and the flight instinct (although it can be argued that protecting ones mate or offspring is an even stronger instinct.)

It involves a large degree of risk of grave injury or death which could be avoided by acting in a different manner.

It is more common than many people assume. We are social creatures and we have a degree of instinct to protect and preserve other members of our "herd".

I remember a few years ago a couple of storied where someone was trapped in a burning vehicle and about to be engulfed. In both stories total strangers risked death and were even injured pulling the victim to safety. In one instance the passenger compartment burst into flames so quickly that the rescuers clothing began to burn as he dragged the other man to safety.


It was the same for the nanny, who saved the little boy that she felt responsible for. So,it is an act of courage, a moral decision, selflessness, and also a biological instinct to protect? I think you are right, many different parts play into it-biological, ethical, spiritual.

Now a new question for you, can courage be taught/learned or is it something innate? I ask, because I noticed one of the young men had been in the military.

Osprey
07-27-2012, 02:01 PM
Well, if women are feminine enough, men have an overpowering desire to protect them, whether they are their girlfriends or not.

carol
07-27-2012, 02:06 PM
Its partly stupid, partly heroic.
If their girlfriends forget them after a week and fuck a new man, then i think giving your life is quite a waste.
Otherwise, it was a good thing.

So to you it would depend upon if the woman was worthy of protection-loyal and faithful, of if the woman was not, and the man sacrificed themselves for a fool or tramp.

Question- Does the act of courage stand by itself-regardless of the behavior of the person one protects-or does it diminish in value according to the value of the life saved? For example, if you save a person who is working on a cure for cancer,is it a greater act of bravery than saving an average working class man?

Osprey
07-27-2012, 02:10 PM
So to you it would depend upon if the woman was worthy of protection-loyal and faithful, of if the woman was not, and the man sacrificed themselves for a fool or tramp.

Question- Does the act of courage stand by itself-regardless of the behavior of the person one protects-or does it diminish in value according to the value of the life saved? For example, if you save a person who is working on a cure for cancer,is it a greater act of bravery than saving an average working class man?

No of course not. Whether it was a waste or not, those men are to be appreciated. But, to us bystanders, it feels good if the girl mourns for her man. If she does not, it gives a bad impression.
Like many Marines and SEALS wives who cheat upon their husbands.
Loyal ones are diamonds, however the cheaters are hellish whores.

carol
07-27-2012, 02:11 PM
People tend to do stupid things when in love.
But who knows, perhaps they were counting on luck that he the bullet will miss them and in the end, alive and well, they would earn high reputation in the eyes of their females.

Questions:
What about the nanny posted, do you have an opinion about her motives in the rescue of the boy she cared for? Do you think there are ever any other reasons for heroics (other than love and the idea one may earn high reputation)

carol
07-27-2012, 02:23 PM
No of course not. Whether it was a waste or not, those men are to be appreciated. But, to us bystanders, it feels good if the girl mourns for her man. If she does not, it gives a bad impression.
Like many Marines and SEALS wives who cheat upon their husbands.
Loyal ones are diamonds, however the cheaters are hellish whores.

I can completely understand what you are saying about the value of loyalty, my family's men (father/grandfather/brother) were military. Any person cheating in a relationship is a bit repulsive to me ( because of the dishonesty, and the cowardice, and the laziness-they should have simply broken up and moved on, instead of cheating) But I find a spouse cheating when someone is deployed especially disgusting, and the situation even more painful.

carol
07-27-2012, 02:28 PM
You've missed the point entirely. You don't risk your life because you might get laid a lot later. You risk your life to protect the woman that you, as a man, are morally responsible for.

I always said any boy who took my daughter out was signing a blank check with his life for her safety; "To get to her, they had better be stepping over your dead body!"

I have no desire to die violently in a public place. That being said, the only way Godzilla himself is going to get to my wife is after I'm out of ammunition, can't hold my tactical Police knife, and am dead. I'd do the same for anyone I considered to be "under my protection".

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but that's the kind of men I grew up around, and the only kind I really respect as men.


I would like to be under your protection in any dangerous situation !:)
But, it is also very likely that I would fight back to back, and along side with you, given my personality, and my thoughts about honor and loyalty. However, it is also very likely you would be much better at fighting than I am. I agree, it is an instinct to protect people that you feel are "under your protection" for whatever reason. We Americans are a fiery bunch, aren't we? Nature, nurture or both?

Osprey
07-27-2012, 02:40 PM
I posted a thread earlier about Sergeant Randy Shugart and Gary Gordon who died protecting a fellow soldier, a pilot. These fellows had to get the permission to go down and shield the guy from a crowd of skinnies, after being denied three times.
They fought till the last bullet, and made sure the pilot lived long eniugh for a leader to arrive who could negotitate his life.
These men are heroes in my eyes. They died to shield a comrade in a totally helpless situation, in a scenario which was doomed from the start.

carol
07-27-2012, 02:43 PM
Well, if women are feminine enough, men have an overpowering desire to protect them, whether they are their girlfriends or not.
So do you believe it an instinct based upon the feminine traits exhibited by the woman, and that it increases depending upon the woman's traits?
(Note to self, always remember to be super feminine)

carol
07-27-2012, 02:48 PM
I posted a thread earlier about Sergeant Randy Shugart and Gary Gordon who died protecting a fellow soldier, a pilot. These fellows had to get the permission to go down and shield the guy from a crowd of skinnies, after being denied three times.
They fought till the last bullet, and made sure the pilot lived long eniugh for a leader to arrive who could negotitate his life.
These men are heroes in my eyes. They died to shield a comrade in a totally helpless situation, in a scenario which was doomed from the start.

I think that would be the most heroic , because they knew ahead of time the risks they would face. My thought is, even though I do not want to die, I will some day, and so if I am faced with a situation which requires my courage, i would rather die that way, instead of simply waiting to become very old. At least I would have stood for something. But, of course, I would much rather not have to be faced with drama. Have you even been in a situation which required great courage of you?

Osprey
07-27-2012, 02:51 PM
So do you believe it an instinct based upon the feminine traits exhibited by the woman, and that it increases depending upon the woman's traits?
(Note to self, always remember to be super feminine)

Weak and helpless often evoke much more sympathy than does the strong.
A strong, manly lad like yourself will be seen as a comrade, to get out of this situation.
A beautiful, crying woman in utter terror will evoke the knight's instincts hidden in every man (except for perverse perdophiles and rapists). He'll drop everything and leap to her defense and will either save her or die trying.
Her beauty will act as a catalyst, as men often protect anything which is superior to them.

Osprey
07-27-2012, 02:57 PM
I think that would be the most heroic , because they knew ahead of time the risks they would face. My thought is, even though I do not want to die, I will some day, and so if I am faced with a situation which requires my courage, i would rather die that way, instead of simply waiting to become very old. At least I would have stood for something. But, of course, I would much rather not have to be faced with drama. Have you even been in a situation which required great courage of you?

Well, I often brag a tad too much on this forum, so take my personal experiences with a grain of salt.
Well, yes one situation.
I was a young teen of 14 yrs and was with two girls of 13 and 11 yr old.
We were lost while on a expedition to the hills nearby. It was a high school trip. When we realized our situation, the girls started crying. I felt the urge, but kept my nerves steady and immediately took charge. I consoled them, (even hugged the pretty blonde one :p) and lead them with me. After wandering for 20 hours wwithout food, water and no sense of direction, we finally were able to reach the search party. The teachers were quite darned happy to see us. One of them hailed me as a hero when they heard our tail.
And the girls gave me a kiss in front of the class, back at school :D

carol
07-27-2012, 03:20 PM
Weak and helpless often evoke much more sympathy than does the strong.
A strong, manly lad like yourself will be seen as a comrade, to get out of this situation.
A beautiful, crying woman in utter terror will evoke the knight's instincts hidden in every man (except for perverse perdophiles and rapists). He'll drop everything and leap to her defense and will either save her or die trying.
Her beauty will act as a catalyst, as men often protect anything which is superior to them.

Hope that you will also be willing to protect a beautiful, fiery woman, who is more angry than terrified, who is also trying to get out of the situation.

I am a quiet woman, and more of an art/music/reading type. I try to be polite and respectful, dress like a lady, respect law, love flowers, babies, puppies, typical feminine woman. But, my personality has always been to be more angry than fearful in a dangerous situation, then I look back upon it and realize that i could have been hurt...but I was simply too angry to run away from something I thought was just too wrong to ignore. It is not that I look for fights, far from it, I am an introvert, and do not go into dangerous positions intentionally, I avoid danger. But the few times I have been tested by danger, the amazon emerges. It surprises everyone, including me, because I am usually try to be such a sweetie, but if it goes bad...amazon.
Two examples, California, middle of the day, two young preteen girls, about twelve or so, were walking in front of me, and a car of four older men pulls up and tried to force them into their car. They scream, and are getting pulled along, I snap and attack the car, like a nut, yelling and hitting blindly. girls run away, men drive away, I come to my senses. I remember I was so angry I actually saw red.
Second situation, in New York coffee shop, man enters wearing ski mask covering his face, crouches down like he has a gun, points it by my head, and my table is right by him. I feel annoyed( I am hungry and tired) I feel angry ( This is why I hate New York, a person can not get a simple meal in peace) I stand up, grab his head in the mask, and hit-slam his head against the wall, no kidding. He was even much bigger and taller than me. He must have been so surprised,and he runs out. I then realize what stupid thing I had done. I become the official girl 'bouncer' to coffee shop, ( free treats and coffee!)to my embarrassment, as I am really not aggressive at all. That was all based upon just feeling so annoyed at his behavior. When I come to my senses, I feel stupid, but I was just so annoyed. I am never violent, in any other situation, do not have a quick temper, I am very patient. I have never hit anyone else, my whole life. I never fight, curse, go out to find trouble. I am just a college student at that point, and spent my life trying to get good grades and working. So, the times when faced with real danger, not something ordinary, but real danger, I am a female tiger. The other times, just a kitten. Now, courage, or stupidity? Both? neither? I don't know. I do know it could have gone very bad for me though.

carol
07-27-2012, 03:21 PM
Well, I often brag a tad too much on this forum, so take my personal experiences with a grain of salt.
Well, yes one situation.
I was a young teen of 14 yrs and was with two girls of 13 and 11 yr old.
We were lost while on a expedition to the hills nearby. It was a high school trip. When we realized our situation, the girls started crying. I felt the urge, but kept my nerves steady and immediately took charge. I consoled them, (even hugged the pretty blonde one :p) and lead them with me. After wandering for 20 hours wwithout food, water and no sense of direction, we finally were able to reach the search party. The teachers were quite darned happy to see us. One of them hailed me as a hero when they heard our tail.
And the girls gave me a kiss in front of the class, back at school :D

That is very heroic for such a young teen :)

Osprey
07-27-2012, 03:41 PM
Hope that you will also be willing to protect a beautiful, fiery woman, who is more angry than terrified, who is also trying to get out of the situation.

I am a quiet woman, and more of an art/music/reading type. I try to be polite and respectful, dress like a lady, respect law, love flowers, babies, puppies, typical feminine woman. But, my personality has always been to be more angry than fearful in a dangerous situation, then I look back upon it and realize that i could have been hurt...but I was simply too angry to run away from something I thought was just too wrong to ignore. It is not that I look for fights, far from it, I am an introvert, and do not go into dangerous positions intentionally, I avoid danger. But the few times I have been tested by danger, the amazon emerges. It surprises everyone, including me, because I am usually try to be such a sweetie, but if it goes bad...amazon.
Two examples, California, middle of the day, two young preteen girls, about twelve or so, were walking in front of me, and a car of four older men pulls up and tried to force them into their car. They scream, and are getting pulled along, I snap and attack the car, like a nut, yelling and hitting blindly. girls run away, men drive away, I come to my senses. I remember I was so angry I actually saw red.
Second situation, in New York coffee shop, man enters wearing ski mask covering his face, crouches down like he has a gun, points it by my head, and my table is right by him. I feel annoyed( I am hungry and tired) I feel angry ( This is why I hate New York, a person can not get a simple meal in peace) I stand up, grab his head in the mask, and hit-slam his head against the wall, no kidding. He was even much bigger and taller than me. He must have been so surprised,and he runs out. I then realize what stupid thing I had done. I become the official girl 'bouncer' to coffee shop, ( free treats and coffee!)to my embarrassment, as I am really not aggressive at all. That was all based upon just feeling so annoyed at his behavior. When I come to my senses, I feel stupid, but I was just so annoyed. I am never violent, in any other situation, do not have a quick temper, I am very patient. I have never hit anyone else, my whole life. I never fight, curse, go out to find trouble. I am just a college student at that point, and spent my life trying to get good grades and working. So, the times when faced with real danger, not something ordinary, but real danger, I am a female tiger. The other times, just a kitten. Now, courage, or stupidity? Both? neither? I don't know. I do know it could have gone very bad for me though.

Wow, the first situation would have riled me up too.
But the second was really courageous for a woman :)

carol
07-27-2012, 03:52 PM
Wow, the first situation would have riled me up too.
But the second was really courageous for a woman :)
More just so very stupid of me, but it was an instant impulse, based upon just being so very sick of New York violence! I do remember considering for a very split second that he could kill me, and thinking it was worth it. I am grateful it turned out OK though.

Osprey
07-27-2012, 04:03 PM
More just so very stupid of me, but it was an instant impulse, based upon just being so very sick of New York violence! I do remember considering for a very split second that he could kill me, and thinking it was worth it. I am grateful it turned out OK though.

Impulsive people are often meant for greatness.
I mean what's the use of emotions and feelings, if you're afraid of acting them out?

carol
07-27-2012, 04:15 PM
Impulsive people are often meant for greatness.
I mean what's the use of emotions and feelings, if you're afraid of acting them out?

Very kind of you! The 'great carol"....hummmm.... sounds very nice. I did later on consider how that idiot could have hurt other people though, and regretted it. Still no harm done, and when I go to New York, to the one little cafe, I am entitled to free cupcakes:thumbs up
I haven't been there in years. I like a quiet life, New York City was too chaotic for me, although exciting.

Osprey
07-27-2012, 04:20 PM
Very kind of you! The 'great carol"....hummmm.... sounds very nice. I did later on consider how that idiot could have hurt other people though, and regretted it. Still no harm done, and when I go to New York, to the one little cafe, I am entitled to free cupcakes:thumbs up
I haven't been there in years. I like a quiet life, New York City was too chaotic for me, although exciting.

A bustling mega city is too chaotic to be exciting.
Excitement to me comes from exploring wild dungeons and roaming mysterious forests. :p

carol
07-27-2012, 04:48 PM
A bustling mega city is too chaotic to be exciting.
Excitement to me comes from exploring wild dungeons and roaming mysterious forests. :p
Completely in agreement! That is why I moved just far away enough to explore wild places. I have no dungeons here though, just old settler foundations, hidden in the forest. Very classy mega forests here though! And lots and lots of little islands to wander about and get lost upon. I love boating, sailing and island exploration. (I have a catamaran.)

2DREZQ
07-27-2012, 07:36 PM
I would like to be under your protection in any dangerous situation !:)
But, it is also very likely that I would fight back to back, and along side with you, given my personality, and my thoughts about honor and loyalty. However, it is also very likely you would be much better at fighting than I am. I agree, it is an instinct to protect people that you feel are "under your protection" for whatever reason. We Americans are a fiery bunch, aren't we? Nature, nurture or both?

Don't mistake my attitude towards protectiveness as a being all macho and puttin' the womenfolk in their place! Far from it. I despise (quietly) women who are weak and silly. In my world women shoot with the men and can check their own oil and will go toe to toe with you if the situation requires it. But they expect and require that men do their duty towards them. Put crudely; Men are better designed physically and mentally for combat than women, which does not negate the fact that women can act with uncompromising courage and toughness. My 4wd pickup is better suited for rough roads and utilitarian jobs than my Audi Quattro, But I could take the Audi through some bad stuff if the need arose.

Femininity is worthless if if is not built around a steel spine.



I am a quiet woman, and more of an art/music/reading type. I try to be polite and respectful, dress like a lady, respect law, love flowers, babies, puppies, typical feminine woman. But, my personality has always been to be more angry than fearful in a dangerous situation, then I look back upon it and realize that i could have been hurt...but I was simply too angry to run away from something I thought was just too wrong to ignore. It is not that I look for fights, far from it, I am an introvert, and do not go into dangerous positions intentionally, I avoid danger. But the few times I have been tested by danger, the amazon emerges. It surprises everyone, including me, because I am usually try to be such a sweetie, but if it goes bad...amazon.
Two examples, California, middle of the day, two young preteen girls, about twelve or so, were walking in front of me, and a car of four older men pulls up and tried to force them into their car. They scream, and are getting pulled along, I snap and attack the car, like a nut, yelling and hitting blindly. girls run away, men drive away, I come to my senses. I remember I was so angry I actually saw red.
Second situation, in New York coffee shop, man enters wearing ski mask covering his face, crouches down like he has a gun, points it by my head, and my table is right by him. I feel annoyed( I am hungry and tired) I feel angry ( This is why I hate New York, a person can not get a simple meal in peace) I stand up, grab his head in the mask, and hit-slam his head against the wall, no kidding. He was even much bigger and taller than me. He must have been so surprised,and he runs out. I then realize what stupid thing I had done. I become the official girl 'bouncer' to coffee shop, ( free treats and coffee!)to my embarrassment, as I am really not aggressive at all. That was all based upon just feeling so annoyed at his behavior. When I come to my senses, I feel stupid, but I was just so annoyed. I am never violent, in any other situation, do not have a quick temper, I am very patient. I have never hit anyone else, my whole life. I never fight, curse, go out to find trouble. I am just a college student at that point, and spent my life trying to get good grades and working. So, the times when faced with real danger, not something ordinary, but real danger, I am a female tiger. The other times, just a kitten. Now, courage, or stupidity? Both? neither? I don't know. I do know it could have gone very bad for me though.

No, there is nothing wrong with your neural wiring. Your fight-or-flight response is just more tuned towards fight. That is a good thing for society, and usually for you.
You see, most aggressors in society expect a flight or paralytic response, when you instantly aggress yourself, you throw them off balance, they hesitate while trying to formulate a response to an unforseen situation. In military parlance, you are inside their decision loop. You have anywhere from 1 to 5 seconds to complete any action needed to neutralize the perceived threat. I can make 3 goblins dead in less than 5 seconds because I have already decided to act in a certain way before the situation arises, thus, I am always inside the bad guys decision loop, and he dies before he has decided how to react to the fact he is facing an armed and trained old fart.

PeacefulCaribbeanDutch
07-27-2012, 07:39 PM
how come none of the people tried to sneak up on the shooter or something

Osprey
07-27-2012, 07:39 PM
Don't mistake my attitude towards protectiveness as a being all macho and puttin' the womenfolk in their place! Far from it. I despise (quietly) women who are weak and silly. In my world women shoot with the men and can check their own oil and will go toe to toe with you if the situation requires it. But they expect and require that men do their duty towards them. Put crudely; Men are better designed physically and mentally for combat than women, which does not negate the fact that women can act with uncompromising courage and toughness. My 4wd pickup is better suited for rough roads and utilitarian jobs than my Audi Quattro, But I could take the Audi through some bad stuff if the need arose.

Femininity is worthless if if is not built around a steel spine.

Instead of having muscles, women should possess a nerve of iron and brain which does not falter in the time of need.
Men will handle all the physcial bunch.

2DREZQ
07-27-2012, 07:41 PM
And the girls gave me a kiss in front of the class, back at school :D

Well, we know what your pick-up line was for the next ten years:

"Hey good-lookin', want to go for a walk in the woods?"

2DREZQ
07-27-2012, 07:58 PM
how come none of the people tried to sneak up on the shooter or something

It could be the cultural makeup and overall youth of the audience. While the protective instinct can manifest early, it actually takes an older more seasoned man (or a trained, i.e. military background young person) to charge a shooter. In a situation where no flanking attack was practical, singling yourself out by being the only person coming DOWN the aisle towards the gunman would have been a near-certain death sentence. It would have been a noble sacrifice, and bought the other patrons a few more precious seconds to escape, but that's about it.

Bullets, on the other hand, announce your intent to resist aggression in a very different manner.

Two to the chest, one to the head. Rinse. Repeat as needed.

carol
07-27-2012, 08:55 PM
[FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3]


No, there is nothing wrong with your neural wiring. Your fight-or-flight response is just more tuned towards fight. That is a good thing for society, and usually for you.
You see, most aggressors in society expect a flight or paralytic response, when you instantly aggress yourself, you throw them off balance, they hesitate while trying to formulate a response to an unforseen situation. In military parlance, you are inside their decision loop. You have anywhere from 1 to 5 seconds to complete any action needed to neutralize the perceived threat. I can make 3 goblins dead in less than 5 seconds because I have already decided to act in a certain way before the situation arises, thus, I am always inside the bad guys decision loop, and he dies before he has decided how to react to the fact he is facing an armed and trained old fart.


Thank you so very much for explaining this in a way that makes sense to me. I really wondered why I had such an immediate reaction, and even questioned my self about it, but what you say makes sense-I have never been an aggressive person, but my natural tendency is fight instead of flight. That is a biological response! I feel a bit better, having somehow felt weird about my reaction. You put it into perspective for me. Perhaps it can be good in some occasions. I have also reacted immediately in other occasions, for example giving CPR to a man who was having a heart attack at the YMCA, other people just froze and I ran to him, to provide it, he passed away regardless but at least I tried to help.
You made me feel better about myself.:)

carol
07-28-2012, 03:02 AM
I've been very moved by the stories of the men who protected their ladies in that cinema. Chivalry is not dead.

I agree with you, and somehow it makes the tragedy a little less painful to me, and easier to bear. When people in my country are killed, it often happens that discussions online either talk about gun control, or the anger at the perpetrator, but this adds another perspective.

Bobcat Fraser
07-28-2012, 06:03 AM
It could be the cultural makeup and overall youth of the audience. While the protective instinct can manifest early, it actually takes an older more seasoned man (or a trained, i.e. military background young person) to charge a shooter. In a situation where no flanking attack was practical, singling yourself out by being the only person coming DOWN the aisle towards the gunman would have been a near-certain death sentence. It would have been a noble sacrifice, and bought the other patrons a few more precious seconds to escape, but that's about it.

Bullets, on the other hand, announce your intent to resist aggression in a very different manner.

Two to the chest, one to the head. Rinse. Repeat as needed.

Your mind changes during those kinds of situations. I saved two lives (AFAIK) over the years, and it seemed like my brain or state of being transformed. My senses were heightened, and my focus was intensified. I felt the same way when I had to do stunt driving. It's like you take some kind of pill or shot that turns you into an action figure. You surprise yourself in a good way. You learn that you're more competent than you imagined. It might be instinct.

Contra Mundum
07-28-2012, 06:16 AM
how come none of the people tried to sneak up on the shooter or something

Exactly. I was listening to some of the survivors who said the gunman was standing right over them, and stopped shooting, then they realized he was reloading. I can't believe someone didn't knock him to the ground.

2DREZQ
07-28-2012, 08:29 PM
Exactly. I was listening to some of the survivors who said the gunman was standing right over them, and stopped shooting, then they realized he was reloading. I can't believe someone didn't knock him to the ground.

If you have never run a "what if" scenario that approximates the actual event, and have never considered that you might someday have to aggress physically to survive, then panic will likely paralyze you.

2DREZQ
07-28-2012, 08:38 PM
Your mind changes during those kinds of situations. I saved two lives (AFAIK) over the years, and it seemed like my brain or state of being transformed. My senses were heightened, and my focus was intensified. I felt the same way when I had to do stunt driving. It's like you take some kind of pill or shot that turns you into an action figure. You surprise yourself in a good way. You learn that you're more competent than you imagined. It might be instinct.

Adrenaline dumps into your system when your threat-recognition circuit kicks into high gear. You're muscles are stronger, reactions faster, blood clots quicker...It's survival reactions gifted to us from our genetic brethren a little lower down the chain.

Bobcat Fraser
07-29-2012, 06:04 AM
Adrenaline dumps into your system when your threat-recognition circuit kicks into high gear. You're muscles are stronger, reactions faster, blood clots quicker...It's survival reactions gifted to us from our genetic brethren a little lower down the chain.

It might be a gift from Someone at the very top of the food chain. Either way, it's good to have when you need it.

Hong Key
07-29-2012, 06:12 AM
I’m reposting these links

Interview with Jack Donovan on Counter Currents
http://www.counter-currents.com/2012/04/interview-with-jack-donovan/

Review of Jack Donovan’s book - The Way of Men
http://www.counter-currents.com/2012/03/jack-donovans-the-way-of-men/

CAROL
"Sorry, the links did not work, although I did get connected to site.”
Links should be fixed now

carol
07-29-2012, 02:20 PM
I’m reposting these links

Interview with Jack Donovan on Counter Currents
http://www.counter-currents.com/2012...-jack-donovan/

Review of Jack Donovan’s book - The Way of Men
http://www.counter-currents.com/2012...he-way-of-men/

Sorry, the links did not work, although I did get connected to site.

EUROPAARISE, thank you! links now working, interesting read.

2DREZQ
07-29-2012, 09:11 PM
It might be a gift from Someone at the very top of the food chain. Either way, it's good to have when you need it.

Well, yes. Every perfect gift comes from above. But, God used the stuff He already had lying around (divine recycling?) and we got tried-and-proven reactions that He test-drove in other primates first.

It works in these situations, not so well in others.

Hong Key
07-31-2012, 06:43 AM
Sorry, the links did not work, although I did get connected to site.

EUROPAARISE, thank you! links now working, interesting read.

Glad you thought it was interesting.

For those who don't want to listen or read the article, a few highlights.

The 4 elements of manhood - Strength, Courage, Mastery, and Honor.

Strength - physical strength

They want to be strong and to be seen to be strong — by women, yes, but preeminently by other men. Men are hard-wired not just to want to achieve masculine virtue, but to want acceptance and honor from other men based upon their masculine virtue. Why? Because that unit of men that guards our perimeter, that protects “us” from “them,” only functions if all the men are driving each other to cultivate manly virtues

men hunt and guard the perimeter, women cook the stew and have the babies that make guarding the perimeter necessary.

Courage

it’s true that women can sometimes display courage in physical danger, but if a woman runs from a club-wielding Orc we don’t think “What a coward!” If a man did, we would (and even male hobbits don’t get a free pass here).

Mastery

a man’s ability to manipulate and control his environment.
from creating makeshift bear traps to navigating by the stars.

Honor

men’s desire to be honored — to be praised and accepted — by other men. And the sort of men women find most attractive are those who receive the most honor from other men: the alpha males. So, it is actually through making themselves accepted and admired by other men that men make themselves attractive to women.

Männerbund

a fraternity of men who recognize each other as comrades capable of protecting the perimeter. Men are fundamentally pack animals.

It’s alot more then that but some of the basics.

http://www.jack-donovan.com/axis/

Bobcat Fraser
07-31-2012, 10:58 AM
I need to work on mastery. All of the repair bills attest to this. I'm good at lifting and moving heavy objects. However, I need an instruction manual to screw in a light bulb.

infoleather
08-01-2012, 08:29 AM
Perhaps they rely on luck, his bullet will miss them, alive and well at the end of the year.