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mrswan
12-03-2012, 04:45 PM
my, most famous example, kate middleton
http://www.okmagazine.com/sites/okmagazine.com/files/imagecache/gallery_full_image/photo_gallery_picture_images/kate-middleton-prince-william-prince-harry-july26-54.jpg

post your examples

Jackson
12-03-2012, 04:46 PM
Rowan Atkinson:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rowan_Atkinson_2011_2.jpg

Valhallan
12-03-2012, 04:47 PM
IMO she's not that swarthy, this is though.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101023225046/simpsons/images/4/40/Russell_Brand.jpg

sammymcgoff
12-03-2012, 04:48 PM
Orlando Bloom

http://www.nndb.com/people/778/000022712/orlando-bloom-01-crop.jpg

Sikeliot
12-03-2012, 04:48 PM
Dominic Cooper.. looks like one of my own, not a British face IMO

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8msCVCjgfaU/TichG89J8RI/AAAAAAAAANU/t44IrlH1UxY/s400/dominic+cooper.jpg

mrswan
12-03-2012, 04:49 PM
IMO she's not that swarthy, this is though.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101023225046/simpsons/images/4/40/Russell_Brand.jpg

she clearly has colour in the face. compare her to her husband just. she clearly exhibits brunetism in hair and Skin. i didnt said she is not british and White though.

Plissken
12-03-2012, 04:49 PM
Good to see that there are swarthier brits than me, raises my self esteem.

Jack B
12-03-2012, 04:49 PM
Kate Middleton is hardly swarthy...

gold_fenix
12-03-2012, 04:49 PM
i would to know how often are British without light features, because here English who are tourist don't differ specially from Scandinavian however in forum isn't extrange to see English with different grade of pigmentation who those who are seen here

Valhallan
12-03-2012, 04:50 PM
she clearly has colour in the face. compare her to her husband just. she clearly exhibits brunetism in hair and Skin. i didnt said she is not british and White though.

It is just my opinion that being "off white" is not enough to be swarthy. The way i see it, you have to have the whole package! Like many of the other examples people posted above do.

Corvus
12-03-2012, 04:50 PM
In my personal opinion which is also emphasized by many anthropologists there are almost no "genuine" swarthy Brits.
The British look unlike Central Europeans very homogenous with no extreme Nordic types but also with very few Mediterranian individuals except some which are generally classified as Palaeoatlantid


The standard British phenotype ranges from Keltic Nordic to Borreby/Brunn, which means lots of people with brown hair but distincitive Nordic facial structure accompanied by often very light skin pigmentation

mrswan
12-03-2012, 04:51 PM
Kate Middleton is hardly swarthy...

to me she is swarthy. she is Skin type II tending towards III. thats southern european colouring. you might call her light olive.

mrswan
12-03-2012, 04:53 PM
It is just my opinion that being "off white" is not enough to be swarthy. The way i see it, you have to have the whole package! Like many of the other examples people posted above do.

ok but i have different opinion. i think imago d e i Looks much like her, maybe imago is a half shade paler then her even. and imago is southern italian

Belenus
12-03-2012, 04:57 PM
Is swarthiness determined by a combination of skin tone, hair colour, and eye colour?

Many British have dark eyes and hair, but type I or II skin. Can they really be called swarthy?

Übermensch
12-03-2012, 04:59 PM
Is swarthiness determined by a combination of skin tone, hair colour, and eye colour?

Many British have dark eyes and hair, but type I or II skin. Can they really be called swarthy?

On averege British can barely tan, anyway variation in terms of pigmentation do occour in every european population, including Scandinavians.

Corvus
12-03-2012, 04:59 PM
Is swarthiness determined by a combination of skin tone, hair colour, and eye colour?

Many British have dark eyes and hair, but type I or II skin. Can they really be called swarthy?

No they can`t. That`s the point I wanted to stress out.
An Englishman or woman will always stand out in Central Europe because of the general Nordic appearance, irrespective if they are dark haired, blonde or sth. in between.

Plissken
12-03-2012, 05:00 PM
an example of a fine swarthy british spesemen.

http://cache.pakistantoday.com.pk/2012/07/BRITISH-METROPOLITAN-POLICE-460x238.jpg

Valhallan
12-03-2012, 05:00 PM
Henry Cavill
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/2/2/1296656439371/Henry-Cavill-007.jpg

Ioan Gruffudd
http://www-deadline-com.vimg.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Ioan-gruffudd.jpg

Visigoth
12-03-2012, 05:01 PM
http://wirenews.co.za/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/CatherineZeta-Jones.jpg
http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/BDGIpjg8XrC3UZPHXGKynQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTMxMDtxPTg1O3NtPTE7dz 0zMTA-/http://media.zenfs.com/289/2011/08/02/VictoriaBeckham_071817.jpg
http://m.gmgrd.co.uk/res/939.$plit/C_71_article_1345488_image_list_image_list_item_0_ image.jpg?13%2F10%2F2010%2006%3A43%3A39%3A845
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTM1MzA2MTgxN15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMDY1NjcxNw@@._ V1._SX214_CR0,0,214,314_.jpg
http://www.curtisbrown.co.uk/_assets/uploads/cropped/22075-square.jpg

Fortis in Arduis
12-03-2012, 05:01 PM
i would to know how often are British without light features, because here English who are tourist don't differ specially from Scandinavian however in forum isn't extrange to see English with different grade of pigmentation who those who are seen here

I suspect that dihydroxyacetone has a role to play in some examples of swarthiness, but we do have an Altantid strain, as you know, and these people would tend to come from the West of England, where there are swathes of swarthiness.

The English tourists that you are probably used to (with the twangy accents and glottal stops) probably come from the South-East of England, where darker complexions are less common.

The South-East of England is where England's material wealth is more highly concentrated and easily accessible, and it has been noted that the local people from these regions sometimes like to travel to Spain, misbehave and get drunk in the heat, and give themselves sunburn. :picard1:

mrswan
12-03-2012, 05:02 PM
an example of a fine swarthy british spesemen.

http://cache.pakistantoday.com.pk/2012/07/BRITISH-METROPOLITAN-POLICE-460x238.jpg

the White brit on left of the Picture has same colouring as the dothead:D

Jackson
12-03-2012, 05:03 PM
I always thought of swarthy as to do with skin, hair and eye colour but seeing as you pretty much never see people with swarthy skin and light hair, and not too often with light eyes, whereas light skin and dark hair and/or dark eyes is more common than the aforementioned combination.

But you can get a lot of variation within a family too, like you can have one sibling significantly darker than average, and one significantly lighter, although it is less common.

For that reason i think it's pretty useless to try and determine 'deep heritage' from pigmentation, and even pretty sketchy using facial structure. Although more often unusual looking people will have some foreign ancestry compared to less unusual looking people, but that is more recent foreign ancestry.

Here's another, Tony Robinson (colour photo in top left):

http://www.unofficialtonyrobinsonwebsite.co.uk/

Plissken
12-03-2012, 05:04 PM
the White brit on left of the Picture has same colouring as the dothead:D

if it wasn't for the turban I'd mistake them as identical twins.

Uhtred
12-03-2012, 05:05 PM
These "dark" types can be found more easily in Wales and Western England, that is the part of the isles that were less influenced by the Germanic invasions. Ioan Gruffudd is Welsh for example.

mrswan
12-03-2012, 05:05 PM
if it wasn't for the turban I'd mistake them as identical twins.

of course, you dont even see the brit because he turned his back.:rolleyes: yet you see his Skin tone and it is about even as with the dothead. the dothead is atypical and Looks quiete the White guy for southasian Standards.

Valhallan
12-03-2012, 05:06 PM
Good to see that there are swarthier brits than me, raises my self esteem.

Indeed, you can infiltrate the British military unsuspectingly and take over!

Don't know how you're going to hide that Italian accent though :lol:

Graham
12-03-2012, 05:07 PM
http://www.celebritiesfans.com/pictures/shirley_henderson.jpg
------------------------------------------------
http://images.tvrage.com/people/17/50593.jpghttp://image.magazine3k.com/data_images/2012/03/09/8/1331326495_medium.jpeg

Plissken
12-03-2012, 05:07 PM
of course, you dont even see the brit because he turned his back.:rolleyes: yet you see his Skin tone and it is about even as with the dothead. the dothead is atypical and Looks quiete the White guy for southasian Standards.

IM, I'm joking, lets not escalate this :|

Ur mom
12-03-2012, 05:07 PM
Example (he can pass as Georgian):

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Admin/BkFill/Default_image_group/2011/6/29/1309363500324/Elliot-Gleave-aka-Example-007.jpg

Plissken
12-03-2012, 05:07 PM
Indeed, you can infiltrate the British military unsuspectingly and take over!

Don't know how you're going to hide that Italian accent though :lol:

babidi bupi? babidibibidibabidibupi!

BABADIBIBIDIBABIDIBU! xD

Corvus
12-03-2012, 05:08 PM
These "dark" types can be found more easily in Wales and Western England, that is the part of the isles that were less influenced by the Germanic invasions. Ioan Gruffudd is Welsh for example.

Dark types don`t exist in Britian and if they do they account for only 1% of the population. The people posted in this thread are either not really British or extremly "cherry picked"

Jackson
12-03-2012, 05:09 PM
the White brit on left of the Picture has same colouring as the dothead:D

The guy in the middle is just giving him one of those 'Heh, you don't even have a beard' looks.

Uhtred
12-03-2012, 05:09 PM
babidi bupi? babidibibidibabidibupi!

BABADIBIBIDIBABIDIBU! xD

Tu sei un pazzo! Va via di qui!

Valhallan
12-03-2012, 05:10 PM
Dark types don`t exist in Britian and if they do they account for only 1% of the population. The people posted in this thread are either not really British or extremly "cherry picked"


.....So every Brit who is not blonde and ubermensch is not a real Brit? Britain is not homogeneous.

jerney
12-03-2012, 05:10 PM
Dominic Cooper.. looks like one of my own, not a British face IMO

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8msCVCjgfaU/TichG89J8RI/AAAAAAAAANU/t44IrlH1UxY/s400/dominic+cooper.jpg

His face actually looks very "British" to me

http://collider.com/wp-content/uploads/dominic-cooper-image.jpg


And Kate Middelton is not even close to being swarthy. She has a very Anglo face with blue eyes and dark brown hair, quite typical if you ask me. And any tan she has is probably fake too

Le duc d'Abrantčs
12-03-2012, 05:11 PM
Swarthy, it never ceases to amaze me the use this word gets so often. None of the British people posted so far is swarthy in my opinion, nor the ones I will post. But I think they'll might fit under the general concept.

Sean Connery
http://images.hollywood.com/site/Sean_Connery_007.jpg

Tom Jones
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1xn1tHtz34I/Te7kJ5PZ3KI/AAAAAAAAIGs/W5ivWPbKy6M/s1600/Tom%252BJones-1.jpg

Catherine-Zeta Jones
http://www.clickgratis.com.br/_upload/images/2012/07/02/catherine-zeta-jones-688.jpg

Victoria Beckham
http://www.toher.com.br/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/VICTORIA-BECKHAM-OCULOS1.jpg

Uhtred
12-03-2012, 05:11 PM
Dark types don`t exist in Britian and if they do they account for only 1% of the population. The people posted in this thread are either not really British or extremly "cherry picked"

Dark Brits are the original pre-Celtic population, the famous "Paleoatlantid" types are mostly found in the Western shores of the Isles.

Ur mom
12-03-2012, 05:12 PM
There were lots of Roman soldiers sent in Britain.

jerney
12-03-2012, 05:13 PM
An actual swarthy/woggish Brit:

http://www.nndb.com/people/480/000027399/dave-gahan.gif

http://www.disturbiamagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/dave_gahan-may.jpg

Jackson
12-03-2012, 05:13 PM
Dark types don`t exist in Britian and if they do they account for only 1% of the population. The people posted in this thread are either not really British or extremly "cherry picked"

They do exist here, and they are more common than 1%, but probably less than 5%. In fact they more often than not look stereotypically British (I guess some sort of Keltic-Atlanto-Med or something). But then you get the 'uber Nordics' at the other end too, and the vast majority are in-between.

We are definitely at the darker end of the spectrum for northern Europe, but you are right these types are quite uncommon, and most on these sorts of threads are cherry-picked, but then we don't all have time to go around photographing the locals :D.

Graham
12-03-2012, 05:16 PM
http://www.lta.org.uk/3G/Tournaments/PlayerPhotos/Men's%20Doubles/1/Colin_Fleming.jpghttp://m.gmgrd.co.uk/sbres/367.$plit/C_67_article_2118833_body_articleblock_0_bodyimage .jpg?15%2F08%2F2012%2015%3A55%3A55%3A658

Uhtred
12-03-2012, 05:20 PM
http://www.lta.org.uk/3G/Tournaments/PlayerPhotos/Men's%20Doubles/1/Colin_Fleming.jpghttp://m.gmgrd.co.uk/sbres/367.$plit/C_67_article_2118833_body_articleblock_0_bodyimage .jpg?15%2F08%2F2012%2015%3A55%3A55%3A658

I don't think the guy on the right is swarthy at all.

Graham
12-03-2012, 05:26 PM
hmmm disagree, think he's swarthy enough

http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Zac+Purchase+Team+GB+Kitting+Out+vFJJrg1jLfcl.jpgh ttp://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Zac+Purchase+Team+GB+Kitting+Out+iwn3B2Wu_Wkl.jpgh ttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Zac-purchase-july2011.jpg/377px-Zac-purchase-july2011.jpg

Uhtred
12-03-2012, 05:29 PM
hmmm disagree, think he's swarthy enough

http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Zac+Purchase+Team+GB+Kitting+Out+vFJJrg1jLfcl.jpgh ttp://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Zac+Purchase+Team+GB+Kitting+Out+iwn3B2Wu_Wkl.jpgh ttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Zac-purchase-july2011.jpg/377px-Zac-purchase-july2011.jpg

Yeah... Incredible what light change does, right?

Loki
12-03-2012, 05:31 PM
Dark Brits are the original pre-Celtic population, the famous "Paleoatlantid" types are mostly found in the Western shores of the Isles.

Yes, correct. They probably stem from the Bell Beaker people or before ... these days mostly confined to the west (Wales in particular), although examples can be seen throughout the country.

Graham
12-03-2012, 05:33 PM
Yes, correct. They probably stem from the Bell Beaker people or before ... these days mostly confined to the west (Wales in particular), although examples can be seen throughout the country.

Yes, Celtic is the wrong word to use though. But it is pre invasions, indigenous. :)

Uhtred
12-03-2012, 05:40 PM
Yes, Celtic is the wrong word to use though. But it is pre invasions, indigenous. :)

Yes, they are pre-Celtic. They were there before the Celts arrive from the continent. They are a Neolithic population, very very old. Remants of the early human presence in the country. When did the British isles started being settled by human populations? I know that some of the oldest sites like Skara Brae date back to 5000-7000 years ago.

Adriano_L
12-03-2012, 05:45 PM
I always considered a true Englishman to be very fair with a variety of hair colours from blonde to black to ginger and for the most part blue eyes, that's what comes to mind when I think of native or Germanic English people.

Adriano_L
12-03-2012, 05:46 PM
to me she is swarthy. she is Skin type II tending towards III. thats southern european colouring. you might call her light olive.

If you consider type II skin swarthy then I'm a swarthy Brit.

Visigoth
12-03-2012, 05:56 PM
Dark types don`t exist in Britian and if they do they account for only 1% of the population. The people posted in this thread are either not really British or extremly "cherry picked"

Tell that to Nick Griffin.
http://www.channel4.com/news/media/images/Channel4/news/articles/09_bnp_griffin_r_k.jpg

Loki
12-03-2012, 06:14 PM
I always considered a true Englishman to be very fair with a variety of hair colours from blonde to black to ginger and for the most part blue eyes, that's what comes to mind when I think of native or Germanic English people.

Well, these dark people are obviously a minority.

morski
12-03-2012, 06:31 PM
Welsh Richard Mylan:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/images/bank/programmes_tv/ent/300coupling_mylan.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/wildwest/cast/images/richard_mylan.jpg

http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsM/tve34048-20040518-1736.gif

http://sharetv.org/images/person/richard_mylan.jpg

Ur mom
12-03-2012, 06:32 PM
Christopher Bowes from Alestorm:

http://f0.bcbits.com/z/35/08/3508511127-1.png

Jackson
12-03-2012, 06:33 PM
Very frizzy hair, not seen that before here i got to admit. On Richard Mylan.

Germaniac
12-03-2012, 06:34 PM
Mylan has to be part black, he has an afro for Christ sake

Jackson
12-03-2012, 06:37 PM
Mylan has to be part black, he has an afro for Christ sake

Yeah definitely looks like that. I've seen a few people with 'afros', but they have curly hair and not frizzy like that. I've met 3 people with blonde afros haha, although not the real thing suppose.

Germaniac
12-03-2012, 06:41 PM
There is a HUGE difference between curly hair like brünn and stuff and FRIZZY negroid hair.

Graham
12-03-2012, 06:43 PM
My friend Thomas, is darkish.

http://imageshack.us/a/img585/4708/thomash.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img708/9674/thomas2iz.jpg

mrswan
12-03-2012, 06:44 PM
Tell that to Nick Griffin.
http://www.channel4.com/news/media/images/Channel4/news/articles/09_bnp_griffin_r_k.jpg

hardcore black ass wog, he would be churka in russia:D

morski
12-03-2012, 06:46 PM
They are not swarthy at all, but neither are they blond and/or blue-eyed.

Andy Hamilton:

http://www.starscolor.com/images/andy-hamilton-02.jpg

Jimmy Carr:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/JimmyCarr.jpg

Rob Brydon:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8w9svJiOy1qbouj6o1_400.jpg

Danny Baker:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41127000/jpg/_41127789_baker_203.jpg

Johnny Vegas:

http://celebslists.com/images/johnny-vegas-01.jpg

Mark Steel:

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article8153348.ece/ALTERNATES/w300/ecsImgSteel-749126658314176.jpg

Prof. Brian Cox:

http://www.icelebz.com/celebs/brian_edward_cox/images/photo1.jpg

Brian Blessed:

http://resgerendae.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/brian-blessed-augustus.jpg

Pretan
12-03-2012, 06:49 PM
hardcore black ass wog, he would be churka in russia:D I doubt 'churkas' are light eyed like Griffin.

Peyrol
12-03-2012, 06:50 PM
Many ''swarthy'' british have obviously typical english features.

mrswan
12-03-2012, 06:50 PM
I doubt 'churkas' are light eyed like Griffin.

ok i didnt know he is light eyed, apologies:rolleyes:
didnt saw it on the Picture. :p

archangel
12-03-2012, 06:56 PM
i think these type people are original inhabitants of british isles rather than germanic invaders from mainland.There are many atlantid and med variants in isles.Germanic invasion brought some few nordids and faelids to the region but they were an elite group right?They were ruling the british islander people and later assimilated among them thats why biritish people are considerably dark pigmented compared to germans,danes,dutch etc..

or maybe i dont have adequate knowledge about the region

Germaniac
12-03-2012, 07:04 PM
archangel, if the light people are the noble, why are most peerage members quite dark?

Corvus
12-03-2012, 07:09 PM
i think these type people are original inhabitants of british isles rather than germanic invaders from mainland.There are many atlantid and med variants in isles.Germanic invasion brought some few nordids and faelids to the region but they were an elite group right?They were ruling the british islander people and later assimilated among them thats why biritish people are considerably dark pigmented compared to germans,danes,dutch etc..

or maybe i dont have adequate knowledge about the region

No you are wrong Archangel, the British are in general a very nordic looking population. They are at least on the same level of nordicism as the North Germans or Dutch.

archangel
12-03-2012, 07:13 PM
i dont think nordlicht they are considerably dark compared to germanics from mainland also shorter you can easily spot a tall light pigmented Dutch among avarage height Brits arent you?

Many north atlantids and even meds are common in isles.Nordic germanic invaders were an elite rulling class that ruled original celtic and pre celtic people and remember original people if island came through from iberia,you can see it from the faces of British people

Adriano_L
12-03-2012, 07:17 PM
i dont think nordlicht they are considerably dark compared to germanics from mainland also shorter you can easily spot a tall light pigmented Dutch among avarage height Brits arent you?

Many north atlantids and even meds are common in isles.Nordic germanic invaders were an elite rulling class that ruled original celtic and pre celtic people and remember original people if island came through from iberia,you can see it from the faces of British people

I am 6'4 and a half :P

Lábaru
12-03-2012, 07:22 PM
So, this man is not "white" for the eyes of the racial inspectors? IM and company ect...
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101023225046/simpsons/images/4/40/Russell_Brand.jpg

mrswan
12-03-2012, 07:25 PM
So, this man is not "white" for the eyes of the racial inspectors? IM and company ect...
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101023225046/simpsons/images/4/40/Russell_Brand.jpg

i never said he is not White, being swarthy is not the same as being not White.

Adriano_L
12-03-2012, 07:25 PM
I think IM created this thread so he can feel more white :O

Lábaru
12-03-2012, 07:31 PM
the funny thing is that this man looks more European than most of the guys that are writing in this thread.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101023225046/simpsons/images/4/40/Russell_Brand.jpg
http://www.cuantopesa.com/images/stories/famosos3/russell-brand-4.jpg

Corvus
12-03-2012, 07:34 PM
I think IM created this thread so he can feel more white :O

I am a bit astonished about the reactions on this obvious trolling attempt.
If he would create a thread like "Swarthy Austrians" this forum would be furious. Blasphemy :D

Übermensch
12-03-2012, 07:36 PM
I wonder why most of people are so obsessed with ''dark brits'' and not with ''dark dutch'',''dark slavs'',''dark germans'',''dark scandos''...

gold_fenix
12-03-2012, 07:38 PM
I wonder why most of people are so obsessed with ''dark brits'' and not with ''dark dutch'',''dark slavs'',''dark germans'',''dark scandos''...

dark dutch= flemish
dark german= usually bavarian who has lower germanic input
dark scandianavian= old stock before indoeuropean invasion

morski
12-03-2012, 07:40 PM
I wonder why most of people are so obsessed with ''dark brits'' and not with ''dark dutch'',''dark slavs'',''dark germans'',''dark scandos''...

The only obsession I can see in this thread is "defending the Brits from the foul accusation that they might not actually be exclusively blond and blue-eyed". And the funny thing is that it's comming from guys who are not Brits themselves.:D

''dark dutch'',''dark slavs'',''dark germans'',''dark scandos'' - those have been discussed here in the past as well.

Nabatea1
12-03-2012, 07:41 PM
Dominic Cooper.. looks like one of my own, not a British face IMO

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8msCVCjgfaU/TichG89J8RI/AAAAAAAAANU/t44IrlH1UxY/s400/dominic+cooper.jpg

He often gets Arab roles lol.

Übermensch
12-03-2012, 07:42 PM
dark dutch= flemish
dark german= usually bavarian who has lower germanic input
dark scandianavian= old stock before indoeuropean invasion

Variation in terms of pigmentation do exist in every european groups, you can find for istance a relativelly brunette skinned,brown eyed,almost black haired Dane and as well a milkish skinned,blue eyed and blonde haired Sicilian (of course the later would be much typical for the first one but that's not the point), i wonder why it's so difficult to accept.
Remember that once europeans where all dark haired and eyed and light features are relativelly recent (so it's quite normal that they aren't 100% dominant).

Anglojew
12-03-2012, 07:46 PM
There's a very darkly pigmented area in northern England perhaps representing Picts or pre-Celts.

Valhallan
12-03-2012, 08:00 PM
The only obsession I can see in this thread is "defending the Brits from the foul accusation that they might not actually be exclusively blond and blue-eyed". And the funny thing is that it's comming from guys who are not Brits themselves.:D

''dark dutch'',''dark slavs'',''dark germans'',''dark scandos'' - those have been discussed here in the past as well.

Quoted for truth.

People are actually saying Britain has an average Nordic population lol

Le duc d'Abrantčs
12-03-2012, 08:12 PM
The only obsession I can see in this thread is "defending the Brits from the foul accusation that they might not actually be exclusively blond and blue-eyed". And the funny thing is that it's comming from guys who are not Brits themselves.:D

''dark dutch'',''dark slavs'',''dark germans'',''dark scandos'' - those have been discussed here in the past as well.

Names? ;)

Anyone who's been to the UK (I have to England, Wales and Scotland) knows that there are plenty of darker-featured British people. Be it as it may, the majority of them is light-eyed/light to mid-brown-haired usually with fair/pinkish complexions (a full-blown olive tonality is rarer). I personally don't use terms such as swarthy since they have become a sort of derogatory slurs used by insecure people to pinpoint others so I won't call these phenotypes swarthy. :D

Graham
12-03-2012, 08:22 PM
^^^This is the perfect example of Scots. Zoom into picture

West and Central Scotland Amateur team. Very Dark & extreme blonds are on the rare end.

http://www.scottishamateurfa.co.uk/upload/gallery/13535852370001.jpg

Albion
12-03-2012, 10:41 PM
Ioan Gruffudd
http://www-deadline-com.vimg.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Ioan-gruffudd.jpg

He's Welsh, they're practically all Atlantids anyway.


Dark types don`t exist in Britian and if they do they account for only 1% of the population. The people posted in this thread are either not really British or extremly "cherry picked"

Cherry picking is correct, but I think you're underestimating the amount of Brits with darker hair, eyes and skin tone.


There were lots of Roman soldiers sent in Britain.

And then did a runner when a few pirates showed up. :D


Yes, they are pre-Celtic. They were there before the Celts arrive from the continent. They are a Neolithic population, very very old. Remants of the early human presence in the country. When did the British isles started being settled by human populations? I know that some of the oldest sites like Skara Brae date back to 5000-7000 years ago.

Between 10,000 and 8,000 years ago.


archangel, if the light people are the noble, why are most peerage members quite dark?

Because they're French. ;) Normans replaced the Germanic aristocracy, although Nordic individuals around here seem to usually be richer than the more Atlantid looking ones.


i dont think nordlicht they are considerably dark compared to germanics from mainland also shorter you can easily spot a tall light pigmented Dutch among avarage height Brits arent you?

It depends where you are in England - east or west. The Dutch are the size of trees because they evolved to stand up tall like meerkets because their country is so flat, they have no hills to lookout from. :p

aimar
12-03-2012, 10:47 PM
http://www.contactmusic.com/pics/mf/abata_arrivals_4_280512/simon-bird-the-2012-arqiva-british-academy_3911299.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/tinthepark/2008/img/626x352/ian_brown_626x352.jpg

Albion
12-03-2012, 10:52 PM
The only obsession I can see in this thread is "defending the Brits from the foul accusation that they might not actually be exclusively blond and blue-eyed". And the funny thing is that it's comming from guys who are not Brits themselves.:D


Yes, I've noticed that too. :D It happens all the time, we're used to other nations arguing about what we are exactly. There are darker Brits as IM says, but they resemble Iberians, none are even close to him (apart from Roma and Indian / Pakistani immigrants anyway).
IM makes these threads to make himself feel better, so that he doesn't feel like a black sheep in a sea of pale white. :rolleyes: "Swarthy" isn't an apt term for darker featured British anyway - dark hair, dark eyes and a skin that tans slightly doesn't equal swarthy. If that were the case, then most of Europe below 50 degrees north would be "swarthy". Brown hair and brown eyes are probably the majority in Europe, I wish people would lose this sad fetish for blonde hair and blue eyes. Brown hair only occurs in Europoid populations and makes up the majority - the rest of the world has black hair (apart from a few weird Melanesians anyway)

Sikeliot
12-03-2012, 10:53 PM
http://www.contactmusic.com/pics/mf/abata_arrivals_4_280512/simon-bird-the-2012-arqiva-british-academy_3911299.jpg

Who is he? He kinda looks Italian.

aimar
12-03-2012, 10:55 PM
Who is he? He kinda looks Italian.

simon bird

Le duc d'Abrantčs
12-03-2012, 10:57 PM
Who is he? He kinda looks Italian.

He looks more Jewish to me:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Simon_Bird%2C_2010.jpg/425px-Simon_Bird%2C_2010.jpg

Uhtred
12-03-2012, 11:02 PM
Between 10,000 and 8,000 years ago.



You mean the Skara Brae timeline or the general time of human peopling in the British Isles?

Sikeliot
12-03-2012, 11:05 PM
He looks more Jewish to me:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Simon_Bird%2C_2010.jpg/425px-Simon_Bird%2C_2010.jpg


That picture yes.

Albion
12-03-2012, 11:14 PM
You mean the Skara Brae timeline or the general time of human peopling in the British Isles?

Peopling of the British Isles. The first inhabitants lived in temporary shelters resembling those built by the Sami. I posted examples somewhere on here....

Uhtred
12-03-2012, 11:44 PM
Peopling of the British Isles. The first inhabitants lived in temporary shelters resembling those built by the Sami. I posted examples somewhere on here....

I bet that this Saami-like shelters must have been used to support the Atlanto-Finnic Hypothesis.

Albion
12-04-2012, 12:58 AM
I bet that this Saami-like shelters must have been used to support the Atlanto-Finnic Hypothesis.

Sami use hide tents (I think they're called 'lavvu') and another type of shelter made from earth (I think it's called 'Goahti').
Evidence for structures like those earth shelters have been found in Britain and Denmark. Evidence of tent-like shelters doesn't survive because they're more perishable. I think it's likely that the prehistoric British had them, but I don't think they'd have been very big or very common (when Britain became forested after the ice it became unsuitable for huge herds of mammals - lack of hides).

The first settlers in Britain stuck mainly to the coast and wetlands (same happened in Denmark). Forested areas lack large mammals (apart from a few deer, but not nearly as many as there are today with all this grass around), but the coast has fish, large mammals and seafood. Wetlands are some of the richest habitats in Northern Europe (but now sadly rare) and had a lot of waterfowl, fish and mammals too.

Here are those Sami shelters anyway:

Some look like the British shelters, others look more like Beothuk tents (the dome-shaped ones - Beothuk were Amerindians from Newfoundland). There's a guy with a theory (http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/index.html) that proposes Beothuk, those ancient Britons and Sami are all related. His Finnic theory is very interesting, but I don't believe it (parts make sense, not as a whole).

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/62007/samichut_new.jpg

http://files.myopera.com/fenris44/albums/117309/Sami%20Shelter...jpg

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/47445233.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Kĺta_i_Västra_Ĺrĺdalen.JPG/1024px-Kĺta_i_Västra_Ĺrĺdalen.JPG


Now here's a reconstructed hut that was found in Northern England:

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/01/89/84/1898413_5ee7ae6b.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a5/S0larisadi/Bushcraft/Hut.jpg

http://www.coast-alive.eu/sites/default/files/article/images_top/2648.jpg


However there isn't necessarily a link. People have propped up sticks to form a teepee-like shape all over the world. It probably arose in many place independently from people just playing with designs.

Then in the Bronze Age, roundhouses suddenly show up. I used to think they evolved from that shelter above, but like I said - it's a basic design.
I think roundhouses evolved from tents much like the Sami lavvu, the Great Plains teepees or those used by the Nenets. Roundhouses were common all over the British Isles, and NW Spain for some reason.
There's a lot of reconstructions now. I suppose it's quite an easy design and it looks interesting. There are probably more reconstructed roundhouses than Viking longhouses or Anglo-Saxon huts (AS huts just look the same as medieval peasant dwellings, so I guess they're not deemed interesting enough).

This is a reconstructed village (Butser) in England:

http://www.inceblundellvillage.co.uk/Iron%20age%20House.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5310/5646162712_70320acfe3_z.jpg

http://www.picturesofengland.com/img/L/1021712.jpg

In Scotland, Ireland and Wales roundhouses have been found on artificial islands in lakes called 'crannogs'. None have been found in England yet.

http://www.borenich.co.uk/Crannogs_Ringforts/images/Crannog%20front.JPG

http://www.grampusheritage.fsnet.co.uk/ticatec%20crannog5.jpg

http://www.borenich.co.uk/Crannogs_Ringforts/images/Crannog.jpg


Roundhouses from the Bronze Age have been found in Dartmoor (well, they're all over the place there - stone was used there, so the remains are vissible).


Roundhouses and barrows show up at around the time when stone circles and dolmens cease to be built. Stonehenge was one of the last during the late neolithic / early bronze age. This is probably evidence that one culture replaced or absorbed the earlier one, because the stone circle building didn't halt immediately.

http://www.beechwood-dartmoor.co.uk/Gallery/Dartmoor-roundhouse.jpg
Another reconstruction

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/8659801.jpg

Most of Dartmoor was abandoned because the climate there became cold and wet and the growing season almost half of that of lowland areas surrounding it (170 days vs 300).

Wild North
12-04-2012, 01:02 AM
Concerning "swarthy brits".. Well f. ex IMO several members of the Monty Python group are a bit "swarthy" yes.. Another example would be the members of the Beatles. They are all from Liverpool.
I don´t know, but I´ve heard that people from the Liverpool area may be a bit swarthier than the average.

Uhtred
12-04-2012, 01:15 AM
Monty Python members are not swarthy at all. Idle and Cleese for example are just ordinary Kelto-Atlantid Brits, while Chapman for example is more Nordoid.

Pretan
12-04-2012, 01:31 AM
Concerning "swarthy brits".. Well f. ex IMO several members of the Monty Python group are a bit "swarthy" yes.. Another example would be the members of the Beatles. They are all from Liverpool.
I don´t know, but I´ve heard that people from the Liverpool area may be a bit swarthier than the average.

Liverpool used to be nicknamed as "Capital of North Wales" it has a large Welsh and Irish immigrant descended population. Ringo Starr was born in such a Welsh area I believe.

Uhtred
12-04-2012, 01:42 AM
The Beatles are from Liverpool, but the Pythons are from many different localities. Idle is from County Durham, and Cleese is from the other half of the Island, he is from Somerset, on the Southwest.

mrswan
12-04-2012, 03:10 AM
an example of a fine swarthy british spesemen.

http://cache.pakistantoday.com.pk/2012/07/BRITISH-METROPOLITAN-POLICE-460x238.jpg

swarthy brits 12-04-2012 12:27 AM Albion the dothead is a higher caste and has lighter skin than usual, both are still lighter than you by a long way :D

?:confused:

Anusiya
12-04-2012, 03:27 AM
Why they hell did you put your head out there for all of us to see again ρε γυφταρμά Ιταλο-Κούρδε! Didn't we indulge enough of your looks in all those previous posts?

mrswan
12-04-2012, 03:29 AM
Why they hell did you put your head out there for all of us to see again ρε γυφταρμά Ιταλο-Κούρδε! Didn't we indulge enough of your looks in all those previous posts?

because of the rep point:rolleyes:

Albion
12-04-2012, 08:52 PM
swarthy brits 12-04-2012 12:27 AM Albion the dothead is a higher caste and has lighter skin than usual, both are still lighter than you by a long way :D

?:confused:

They're obviously lighter skinned than you (based on all those pictures you post almost daily :rolleyes: ). Are you colour blind in just in denial?

mrswan
12-06-2012, 05:10 AM
They're obviously lighter skinned than you (based on all those pictures you post almost daily :rolleyes: ). Are you colour blind in just in denial?

in denial not maybe im colour blind. i dont see a difference and certainly not "by the Long way" if they are lighter maybe 1/8 of a shade. but i dont think they are lighter. on some Pictures i look much lighter then them. on some others like them.

Mr.crowley
12-06-2012, 05:36 AM
http://www.papblog.com.ar/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/nono.jpg

sammymcgoff
12-10-2012, 07:42 PM
English reality TV Star Hugo Taylor. In my opinion he could pass as Armenian.

http://www.heatworld.com/images/104371_292x381_STD/2011/8/Hugo_Taylor.jpg

Corvus
12-10-2012, 07:45 PM
Former formula 1 driver Damon Hill:

http://www.formula1.com/photos/teams_and_drivers/hall_of_fame_profile/top_right/hof_profile_right_71.jpg

http://news.carrentals.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Damon-Hill.jpg

Pallantides
12-12-2012, 01:46 AM
IMO she's not that swarthy, this is though.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101023225046/simpsons/images/4/40/Russell_Brand.jpg

I have Swedish friend who look similar to him, only he don't have such Neolithic eyes.

Albion
12-12-2012, 12:41 PM
I have Swedish friend who look similar to him, only he don't have such Neolithic eyes.

I thought you said that Neolithic eyes were when they're slopping down slightly at the sides?

Lábaru
12-12-2012, 12:54 PM
I thought you said that Neolithic eyes were when they're slopping down slightly at the sides?


Translation---->Neolithic eyes=eyes of Western Europe///// Mesolithic eyes= are eyes with Asian influences, or if you prefer use the euphemism "borealized".

finţaų
12-12-2012, 01:03 PM
Translation---->Neolithic eyes=eyes of Western Europe///// Mesolithic eyes= are eyes with Asian influences, or if you prefer use the euphemism "borealized".

Unsubstantiated speculation, not supported by modern population genetics.

You can certainly find eye-shapes that Pallantides would not refer to as "Neolithic" in West Europe, too:

http://i.imgur.com/U4a6F.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PNJih.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/r3Uml.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TrJ8e.jpg

Lábaru
12-12-2012, 01:06 PM
Unsubstantiated speculation, not supported by modern population genetics.


Are you kidding?:confused:nothing happens, the denial of reality is only a period that ends later or earlier in the acceptance.

By the way, very lol pics.

finţaų
12-12-2012, 01:10 PM
Are you kidding?:confused:nothing happens, the denial of reality is only a period that ends later or earlier in the acceptance.

Show me the genetic data confirming that non-round eye-shapes in Europeans correlate with and are caused by "Asian" influences. :)

It makes no more sense than claiming that big eyes being present in Europeans is due to Sub-Saharan admixture, citing round-eyed Africans as proof.

http://i.imgur.com/so9B9.png

By the way, do you believe that the slant-eyed San of Southern Africa have "Asian" influences too?

http://i.imgur.com/FkDYm.jpg

finţaų
12-12-2012, 01:19 PM
By the way, very lol pics.

Care to elaborate?

Lábaru
12-12-2012, 01:21 PM
Show me the genetic data confirming that non-round eye-shapes in Europeans correlate with and are caused by "Asian" influences. :)

It makes no more sense than claiming that big eyes being present in Europeans is due to Sub-Saharan admixture, citing round-eyed Africans as proof.

http://i.imgur.com/so9B9.png

By the way, do you believe that the slant-eyed San of Southern Africa have "Asian" influences too?

http://i.imgur.com/FkDYm.jpg


We all come from Africa, the moment that are formed the features is only a detail of relative importance.

Anyway if you accept what you say, then you can not argue that these traits are Mesolithic or Neolithic, because we have no evidence that the Western eyes were not present in Europe before the Neolithic.

Pallantides is wrong and you're blind to his words, but you are very quick to defend anyone who will discuss with him this fool theory, why? any needs to impose the slanted features as the more ancients and native of Europe?

finţaų
12-12-2012, 01:25 PM
We all come from Africa, the moment that are formed the features is only a detail of relative importance.

Anyway if you accept what you say, then you can not argue that these traits are Mesolithic or Neolithic, because we have no evidence that the Western eyes were not present in Europe before the Neolithic.

Pallantides is wrong and you're blind to his words, but you are very quick to defend anyone who will discuss with him this fool theory, why? any needs to impose the slanted features as the more ancients and native of Europe?


I haven't claimed such a thing. I think that they are an adaptation to harsh climates, as all human feti are epicanthus-equipped, yet few retain it into adulthood in vast, temperate Europe. Eye-shapes are not relevant to me, but I fail to tolerate nonsensical assertions.

I agree with Pallantides that narrow and often "slanted" eyes are "native" to the North of Europe, but that does not exclude conflicting traits from being equally "native". A genetically homogenous population need not be phenotypically homogenous.

"Neolithics" were in reality a heterogenous bunch of migrants, so they would most likely have had various different eye-shapes, nose-shapes, degrees of pigmentation, statures et cetera. We don't really know what Mesolithic Europeans looked like; they may have been just as phenotypically diverse as modern-day Europeans.

EDIT: Let's not derail this thread further. I apologize for hijacking it. :)

Lábaru
12-12-2012, 01:39 PM
I agree with Pallantides that narrow and often "slanted" eyes are "native" to the North of Europe

vs


but that does not exclude conflicting traits from being equally "native". A genetically homogenous population need not be phenotypically homogenous.

Well, I'm waiting for your response to the continuing post of Pallantides about Neolithic eyes/facial features.

Pallantides
12-12-2012, 02:15 PM
Narrow eyes is an adaptation, it better protects the eyes from sun-rays, snow-reflection and strong winds. When the Ice Age was ending, in most of Europe it was much colder than it is now (Northern Germany, Denmark and Southern Sweden during the late Upper Palaeolithic was arctic tundra)

In such harsh and cold conditions such features develop.

Corvus
12-12-2012, 02:16 PM
Narrow eyes is an adaptation, it better protects the eyes from sun-rays, snow-reflection and strong winds. When the Ice Age was ending, Europe was a much colder place than it is now. In such harsh and cold conditions such features develop.

Sounds reasonable

Hurrem sultana
12-12-2012, 02:23 PM
http://www.papblog.com.ar/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/nono.jpg

OMG he looks exactly like IM

Duke
12-12-2012, 02:24 PM
Narrow eyes is an adaptation, it better protects the eyes from sun-rays, snow-reflection and strong winds. When the Ice Age was ending, in most of Europe it was much colder than it is now, in such harsh and cold conditions such features develop.

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/photolib/maps/Map%20of%20Europe%20in%20the%20Great%20Ice%20Age%2 01906.jpg

http://geography-site.co.uk/pages/physical/glaciers/images/europe_16000bc.jpg

mostly northern Europe was under ice age, but people weren't living there, more like on the edges at most, because it was inhospitable for life, like Antarctica, and when the ice started to withdrew people followed it.

Firstly to say that all Europe suffered efect of Ice age was false, and the other false statment that someone actually lived on the ice during ice age.

So your statement that those are exclusively Mesolithic eyes is false because is based on false premise

Pallantides
12-12-2012, 02:29 PM
Read again, I never said people lived on the ice, I said Europe was colder back then due to the ice age:picard1:


The people followed the receding ice

As the ice receded, reindeer grazed on the plains of Denmark and southernmost Sweden, while along the coast of western Sweden, marine resources were exploited. This was the land of the Ahrensburg culture and preceding Hamburg culture, tribes who hunted over territories 100,000 km˛ vast and lived in teepees on the tundra. On this land there was little forest but arctic white birch and rowan, but the taiga slowly appeared.
http://i.imgur.com/yLD4N.jpg

Lábaru
12-12-2012, 02:29 PM
Sounds reasonable

yes.
http://i.imgur.com/FkDYm.jpg

Adaptation.

Duke
12-12-2012, 02:31 PM
yes.
http://i.imgur.com/FkDYm.jpg

Adaptation.

left one has Mesolithic eyes which were product of adaptation to the ice and cold weather :D

Corvus
12-12-2012, 02:34 PM
yes.
http://i.imgur.com/FkDYm.jpg

Adaptation.

It is. Their eyes became smaller not because of ice and snow but most likely because of sandstorms and sunrays

Lábaru
12-12-2012, 02:35 PM
It is. Their eyes became smaller not because of ice and snow but most likely because of sandstorms and sunrays

Sounds reasonable.

Duke
12-12-2012, 02:37 PM
It is. Their eyes became smaller not because of ice and snow but most likely because of sandstorms and sunrays

those are not sand people, and how is ti now adoptation to sunrays, i thought that spot was reserved for neolitic eyes :tongue

Corvus
12-12-2012, 02:39 PM
those are not sand people, and how is ti now adoptation to sunrays, i thought that spot was reserved for neolitic eyes :tongue

Isn`t there a big desert in Africa with lots of sand, anyway I am out of here.
I was never intrested in Africans.

Duke
12-12-2012, 02:46 PM
Isn`t there a big desert in Africa with lots of sand, anyway I am out of here.
I was never intrested in Africans.

yes its called Sahara


When you look at hers "Mesolitic" eyes, you can see she has fat on her eyelids(eylid are not fully visible but go under fatty tissue under eyebrows), and according to that theory it is supposed to be adaptation to cold, as that fat is supposed to keep eyes worm.

Septentrion
12-21-2012, 05:55 PM
If Kate Middleton with a skin type II is swarthy to you, that would be most Europeans are swarthy. The majority of Europeans are skin type III for your information, and the British are generally lighter-skinned than the average Europeans. Skin type I is commonest in Celtic populations.

Sikeliot
12-22-2012, 06:59 PM
Kate Middleton is definitely not swarthy. A swarthy Brit would be someone more like Dominic Cooper or Victoria Beckham.

Luchon20102012
01-05-2013, 02:28 AM
to me she is swarthy. she is Skin type II tending towards III. thats southern european colouring. you might call her light olive.

Assuming that, most of all spaniards and majority of italians would be called swarthy (Skin type II and III). Only Skin Type I you consider white?

Jackson
01-06-2013, 12:38 AM
Kate Middleton looks dark by British standards, but within the range - just at the darker end of it. I don't think most people would call her swarthy as such, but they would call her dark featured. Her complexion seems similar to that of my Grandfather's mother (or perhaps darker), and our family were convinced there was a 'touch of the brush' on that side. That sort of complexion is not overly common, but it's not rare either. I would have thought she was a type III though, or at least somewhere between II-III.

Jackson
01-06-2013, 12:56 AM
Although reading the Fitzpatrick scale, it's quite odd. I would say i'm type II and i rarely burn now. Even when i was a kid i used to burn more but still could get a good tan on my arms and legs, although not on my face.

Type II (scores 8-16) White; fair.
Usually burns, tans with difficulty
Type III (scores 17-24) Medium, white to light brown.
Sometimes mild burn, gradually tans to a light brown

By that alone i fit the Type III nicely, but if Kate Middleton is a type II but darker, i don't see how it works.

Sikeliot
01-06-2013, 08:53 PM
Kate Middleton is not dark in my opinion. some pictures she might look it but normally not:

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/72/00/7200819f288e3e44cd7de8c45197c2b6.jpg

Catrau
01-06-2013, 08:59 PM
If Kate Middleton with a skin type II is swarthy to you, that would be most Europeans are swarthy. The majority of Europeans are skin type III for your information, and the British are generally lighter-skinned than the average Europeans. Skin type I is commonest in Celtic populations.

What do you mean by Celtic?? there is a lot of celtic ancestry from south to north and from west to east.

Alex Delarge
01-06-2013, 09:01 PM
What do you mean by Celtic?? there is a lot of celtic ancestry from south to north and from west to east.

Americans and Brits think that Celtic = Ireland & Wales only.

Sikeliot
01-06-2013, 09:02 PM
I don't know that we can even prove what was a "Celtic" appearance. But I can say I do not think it is the red hair, freckles look which if anything is probably a result of Viking influence.

Jackson
01-06-2013, 09:11 PM
I don't know that we can even prove what was a "Celtic" appearance. But I can say I do not think it is the red hair, freckles look which if anything is probably a result of Viking influence.

I'd disagree with that, but certainly i don't think Celtic peoples are one entity overall, except with linguistics, culture and maybe R1b-P312 - which seems to have diverged within Celtic populations thousands of years ago. The Iberian, British Isles and Central European Celts all seem to be distinct populations. Seems the Celtic identity has at least three sub-groups. They look different, are often nowhere near each other genetically, and R1b is distinct in each area (f.e Celtic areas of Central Europe is more U152 and some U106, Britain & Ireland mostly L21 etc...)

Plus red hair isn't only a Celtic thing, can be found across the whole of Europe. Just so happens it suddenly gets relatively more common in Ireland and Britain.

Sikeliot
01-06-2013, 09:30 PM
If anything I associate the "Atlantid" classification with Celtic since it is common everywhere that was once Celtic speaking in Western Europe.

Wild North
01-07-2013, 12:28 AM
Could it be because of distant prehistoric migrations to the British isles by mediterranean peoples?

Atlantic Islander
01-07-2013, 12:32 AM
Although reading the Fitzpatrick scale, it's quite odd. I would say i'm type II and i rarely burn now. Even when i was a kid i used to burn more but still could get a good tan on my arms and legs, although not on my face.

Type II (scores 8-16) White; fair.
Usually burns, tans with difficulty
Type III (scores 17-24) Medium, white to light brown.
Sometimes mild burn, gradually tans to a light brown

By that alone i fit the Type III nicely, but if Kate Middleton is a type II but darker, i don't see how it works.

There really should be a type right in the middle, because there are plenty of people that burn & then tan that look more type II skin color-wise.

Jackson
01-07-2013, 12:35 AM
Could it be because of distant prehistoric migrations to the British isles by mediterranean peoples?

We do typically have a few percent more Mediterranean components than Scandinavians, so this may in part explain the higher number of darker phenotypes. Apparently those Mediterranean components peak in Sardinia, and i've heard they are quite dark.

Dexter Morgan
01-07-2013, 12:37 AM
We all come from Africa, the moment that are formed the features is only a detail of relative importance.

Anyway if you accept what you say, then you can not argue that these traits are Mesolithic or Neolithic, because we have no evidence that the Western eyes were not present in Europe before the Neolithic.

Pallantides is wrong and you're blind to his words, but you are very quick to defend anyone who will discuss with him this fool theory, why? any needs to impose the slanted features as the more ancients and native of Europe?

these traits are homo florensis/neolithic.
http://i.imgur.com/FkDYm.jpg[/QUOTE]
http://i47.tinypic.com/2zqejvk.jpg

Jackson
01-07-2013, 12:40 AM
Could be that ancient Europeans looked somewhat akin to Native Americans - Or at least more than modern Europeans. Northern Europeans are shifted towards North Asia genetically relative to Southern Europeans.

Goobyski
01-07-2013, 10:04 AM
We do typically have a few percent more Mediterranean components than Scandinavians, so this may in part explain the higher number of darker phenotypes.
Component =/= pigmentation and phenotype.

Jackson
01-07-2013, 10:21 AM
Component =/= pigmentation and phenotype.

Yes i know. But if we have more of the components that peak in areas with much darker pigmentation, it would make sense that we are slightly darker on average. You are right though, they are not necessarily directly related, especially within individuals.

Ira di Dio
01-07-2013, 10:25 AM
Component =/= pigmentation and phenotype.
Exactly. I think that sexual selection in a certain area over the millennia, allowing the transmission of certain characters over others (because of climate etc.), has much more of an influence on phenotypes.

gold_fenix
01-07-2013, 10:35 AM
We do typically have a few percent more Mediterranean components than Scandinavians, so this may in part explain the higher number of darker phenotypes. Apparently those Mediterranean components peak in Sardinia, and i've heard they are quite dark.

well really this hasn't to be of this form, remind that more ancient european hadn't light pigmentation, in Norway in isolated zone appear people of dark pigmentation, Pallatides for example hasn't the typical pigmentation of Skandinavian and however He has a North european component highes that the rest of people, cerianly altought dark pigmentation is associated in Europe with mediterranean is wrong, in isolated zones of Europe appear darker types, a lot of people think that basques have light pigmentation but is wrong, indeed perhaps are the only european who have jet black hair, in resume i want to say that swarthy British perhaps are only those types who keep an old stock native of British Isles

Jackson
01-07-2013, 10:36 AM
Exactly. I think that sexual selection in a certain area over the millennia, allowing the transmission of certain characters over others (because of climate etc.), has much more of an influence on phenotypes.

Yes, but we can assume their has been more gene-flow between the Mediterranean and Britain than there has been between Britain and Scandinavia. And as Mediterranean countries have darker pigmentation on average, this correlates with the higher level of Mediterranean components. You are both right in that this isn't a direct correlation though, the darker pigmentation is not caused by the components. I am talking about populations though, not individuals. The least Mediterranean person in my family also happens to be the darkest.

Goobyski
01-07-2013, 10:36 AM
(because of climate etc.), has much more of an influence on phenotypes.
Britain and Ireland have colder weather than Scandinavia, yet they're more noticeably darker than Scandinvarians. So, what you're saying is not true.

Ira di Dio
01-07-2013, 10:37 AM
Yes, but we can assume their has been more gene-flow between the Mediterranean and Britain than there has been between Britain and Scandinavia.
Honest I didn't know it.

Jackson
01-07-2013, 10:39 AM
well really this hasn't to be of this form, remind that more ancient european hadn't light pigmentation, in Norway in isolated zone appear people of dark pigmentation, Pallatides for example hasn't the typical pigmentation of Skandinavian and however He has a North european component highes that the rest of people, cerianly altought dark pigmentation is associated in Europe with mediterranean is wrong, in isolated zones of Europe appear darker types, a lot of people think that basques have light pigmentation but is wrong, indeed perhaps are the only european who have jet black hair, in resume i want to say that swarthy British perhaps are only those types who keep an old stock native of British Isles

Yes but Pallantides is a single person. There is a lot of variation around the average.

What i mean is that if place A has more mixing with place B than place C has, as phenotype is passed on through families, there should be a larger number of B phenotypes in place A, than in place C.

Ira di Dio
01-07-2013, 10:40 AM
Britain and Ireland have colder weather than Scandinavian, yet they're more noticeably darker than Scandinvarians. So, what you're saying is not true.
Where have I said that the colder the lighter? It is not necessarily so, beside temperature is only a component of climate and we (at least I) don't know exactly how sexual selection reacts to different climatic variables combined in several different ways.

Jackson
01-07-2013, 10:44 AM
Britain and Ireland have colder weather than Scandinavia, yet they're more noticeably darker than Scandinvarians. So, what you're saying is not true.

Hmm i'm not sure about that. For example this winter we only had a brief cold snap where most of the country was below 0, but for the rest of it we have had a similar temperature as parts of Portugal at least at times, from what I've seen. Meanwhile i'd heard Vasa speaking about feet of snow and -20 in Sweden...

We have a milder climate though, so it might not get as hot in summer, but it also doesn't get as cold in winter.

Goobyski
01-07-2013, 10:45 AM
Where have I said that the colder the lighter? It is not necessarily so, beside temperature is only a component of climate and we (at least I) don't know exactly how sexual selection reacts to different climatic variables combined in several different ways.
Sorry for misunderstood. Anyway, we have darker Poles too, just look at the guy in my signature. ;)

Ira di Dio
01-07-2013, 10:48 AM
Hmm i'm not sure about that. For example this winter we only had a brief cold snap where most of the country was below 0, but for the rest of it we have had a similar temperature as parts of Portugal at least at times, from what I've seen. Meanwhile i'd heard Vasa speaking about feet of snow and -20 in Sweden...

We have a milder climate though, so it might not get as hot in summer, but it also doesn't get as cold in winter.
I took it for a mistake (wasn't it?). Obviously Scandinavia is colder than Britain.

Jackson
01-07-2013, 10:50 AM
Basically Britain is more Mediterranean than Scandinavia in climate and genotype. So it would make sense we have more Mediterranean-influenced phenotypes. That's all i wanted to get across.

Ira di Dio
01-07-2013, 10:51 AM
Basically Britain is more Mediterranean than Scandinavia in climate and genotype. So it would make sense we have more Mediterranean-influenced phenotypes. That's all i wanted to get across.
Blame the Gulf Stream for your shameful swarthiness :tongue

Goobyski
01-07-2013, 10:51 AM
Basically Britain is more Mediterranean than Scandinavia in climate and genotype. So it would make sense we have more Mediterranean-influenced phenotypes. That's all i wanted to get across.
Irish have less Med and more North European component than the English. :p

Jackson
01-07-2013, 10:52 AM
Blame the Gulf Stream for your shameful swarthiness :tongue

Haha. But it's what makes this place great to live in. Rarely too hot, rarely too cold. :D

Ira di Dio
01-07-2013, 10:53 AM
Rarely too hot, rarely too cold. :D
Always too damp ;)

Jackson
01-07-2013, 10:56 AM
Irish have less Med and more North European component than the English. :p

Yeah. :)

Probably partly because it was part of the Roman Empire (whereas Ireland, northern Scotland weren't) and also because of movement in more recent times. I mean if you go to Dover, you can see the coast of France, and France has a Mediterranean coastline.

Only significant difference really is that the north European component is different in the Irish than the English, generally. They are much more Atlantic, which interestingly is also the first or second main component in Spain and France. :)

gold_fenix
01-07-2013, 11:29 AM
Anyway each study says differents things about components, the only things where there is a convergence between different groups, so things can be really be seen of different forms

bella1407
01-07-2013, 04:00 PM
Orlando Bloom

http://www.nndb.com/people/778/000022712/orlando-bloom-01-crop.jpg

he is of jewish descent.

Atlantic Islander
01-07-2013, 05:14 PM
he is of jewish descent.

People always use him as an example, I think Stuart Townsend (English/Irish) is a better example.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h157/animebooklover/0100/vgh/hy_zps05f556c4.jpg

But it really doesn't matter.

Ira di Dio
01-07-2013, 05:20 PM
I think that for today I've seen enough half naked men :D

Septentrion
01-08-2013, 03:33 AM
Well, these dark people are obviously a minority.
True the English are well among the fairest-skinned Europeans, and 55% have blue eyes. Swarthy ones are really minorities.

Midori
01-08-2013, 03:42 AM
True the English are well among the fairest-skinned Europeans, and 55% have blue eyes.

I'm pretty sure the % is higher...

Jackson
01-08-2013, 07:40 AM
I'm pretty sure the % is higher...

Yeah i think it's like 75% or more. I know everyone on my father's side of the family has blue or light eyes, while over half of my mother's side.

Adriano_L
01-08-2013, 08:23 AM
she clearly has colour in the face. compare her to her husband just. she clearly exhibits brunetism in hair and Skin. i didnt said she is not british and White though.

I am brunet! I must be a swarthy Brit :D

mrswan
01-08-2013, 08:26 AM
Kate Middleton is not dark in my opinion. some pictures she might look it but normally not:

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/72/00/7200819f288e3e44cd7de8c45197c2b6.jpg

she still Looks dark skinned in this one

mrswan
01-08-2013, 08:27 AM
I am brunet! I must be a swarthy Brit :D

she has a brownish/brunet tint in the SKIN COLOUR TOO

Jackson
01-08-2013, 08:45 AM
she has a brownish/brunet tint in the SKIN COLOUR TOO

Yeah i was confused about this until recently. I always used to think that Brunet referred to hair colour only, but apparently not.

mrswan
01-08-2013, 09:23 AM
Yeah i was confused about this until recently. I always used to think that Brunet referred to hair colour only, but apparently not.

there is a category called brunet White, it refers to Skin colour and means a brunettish Skin complexion or brownish tint in the Skin colour

Ira di Dio
01-08-2013, 09:24 AM
I don't like the word "brunette" it sounds teh gay

mrswan
01-08-2013, 09:30 AM
I don't like the word "brunette" it sounds teh gay

that is how many anthropologists classified.

Caismeachd
01-08-2013, 09:54 AM
It's not that uncommon. My dad and brother have dark slightly curly hair and tannish skin with big freakish triangle noses. I turned out blond and cromagnid instead. They got their looks from my Liverpool grandmother.

Albion
01-08-2013, 07:36 PM
Britain and Ireland have colder weather than Scandinavia, yet they're more noticeably darker than Scandinavians. So, what you're saying is not true.

Scandinavia probably has less daylight hours in winter, so that would necessitate lighter skin to gain more vitamin D. Then again some of the palest people in Europe are the red heads of the British Isles periphery, so in Britain it's probably just ancient invasions that changed the phenotype. A lot of the phenotypes are depigmented Atlantids that arrived in the Neolithic and Bronze Ages, Mesolithic Brits were probably very pale CMs, and Germanic invaders were mainly Nordic with a few Atlantid varieties among them.
Scandinavia meanwhile has only ever been settled by rather pale peoples that added to the already pale aboriginal population.
Atlantid Brits probably won't depigment much more because there isn't any strong need to.


Always too damp ;)

Yes... :sad:

Corvus
01-08-2013, 07:51 PM
Tim Henman:

http://www.talkingsports.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Henman.jpg

Sikeliot
01-09-2013, 04:17 AM
A swarthy Brit:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/files/2010/09/gavin-henson.gif

Catrau
01-09-2013, 11:47 AM
John Herdman (Consett, northwest England), Canadian women football coach.
He looks like a neighbor of mine.


http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/herdman_john640_640_zpsbec26157.jpg

Sigurd
01-09-2013, 12:45 PM
Henry Cavill
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/2/2/1296656439371/Henry-Cavill-007.jpg

Ioan Gruffudd
http://www-deadline-com.vimg.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Ioan-gruffudd.jpg


Neither of those two are anywhere near my definition of 'swarthy'. One of them's got blue eyes, the other has a reddish beard, FFS. Lack of shaving or curls don't make someone swarthy yet. :picard1:

Jackson
01-09-2013, 12:50 PM
Neither of those two are anywhere near my definition of 'swarthy'. One of them's got blue eyes, the other has a reddish beard, FFS. Lack of shaving or curls don't make someone swarthy yet. :picard1:

They are definitely dark Brits though.

Gospodine
01-09-2013, 07:37 PM
Swarthy Brits, greatest hits collection:

Ritchie Coster:
http://www.spoilertv.co.uk/images/cache/game-of-thrones/Misc/Casting/Lem%20Lemoncloak/Ritchie%20Coster_FULL.jpg

Terry Etim:
http://media.ufc.tv/138/Photos/138_OW/10_138OpenWorkouts.jpg

Emma Pierson:
http://www.gallery.tartydoris.com/_tartydoris/emma_pierson/Emma_Pierson477.jpg

Chris Coleman (Welsh):
http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Norwich+City+v+Coventry+City+Gh65GLI7nXel.jpg

John Rhys-Davies (Welsh):
http://news.mymiddleearth.com/files/2011/08/jrd.jpg

Ray Dorset:
http://photos.pixyblog.com/pictorialpress/gen/500/001-059417.jpg

James Mason:
http://www.originaloldradio.com/james_mason.jpg

Sikeliot
01-10-2013, 06:55 AM
Chris Coleman (Welsh):
http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Norwich+City+v+Coventry+City+Gh65GLI7nXel.jpg


This guy looks very Portuguese. I've said it for years.

aimar
01-10-2013, 02:00 PM
This guy looks very Portuguese. I've said it for years.

no, he does not.

Jackson
01-10-2013, 02:34 PM
This guy looks very Portuguese. I've said it for years.

Well i wouldn't have thought he was British if i didn't already know he was, but he still looks western European. Quite a strange look.

dp93
01-10-2013, 03:07 PM
The Welsh are the swarthiest of the Brits so these types are most common there.

Graham
01-10-2013, 03:32 PM
Etim doesn't look like a native surname.

Jackson
01-10-2013, 03:37 PM
LOL Terry Etim is definitely foreign. No questions asked. xD

le penalty
01-10-2013, 04:15 PM
LOL Terry Etim is definitely foreign. No questions asked. xD

Ray Dorset also no ?

Jackson
01-10-2013, 04:18 PM
Ray Dorset also no ?

Looks like it, he might be like 50% British 50% something else perhaps. But several of those posted look to be at least part foreign.

Gospodine
01-10-2013, 04:28 PM
LOL Terry Etim is definitely foreign. No questions asked. xD

Mate, he's from fucking Liverpool and I know for a fact that accent doesn't grow on you unless you were born and raised there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os1FqiALTk4

Without a tan he doesn't look as exotic:
http://admin.mmaweekly.com/wp-content/uploads//2011/11/Terry-Etim-UFC-84-Weigh.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KDeBl1Avzj0/Ty0nagzo1kI/AAAAAAAAFSA/nUuL_OEB66w/s1600/etim%2BEdson%2BBarboza%2Bkick%2BPhotos%252C%2BBarb oza%2BKO%2BTerry%2BEtim%252C%2BUFC%2B142.jpg

It could also be the fact that he regularly cuts a lot of weight, as he fights in a weight class lower than his natural weight, which kind of distorts his appearance and gives him a more "gaunt" look.

As for Ray Dorset I have no idea. He's the only questionable one on that list, the rest are natives of the British Isles through and through.

finţaų
01-10-2013, 04:32 PM
Mate, he's from fucking Liverpool and I know for a fact that accent doesn't grow on you unless you were born and raised there.


He could still have recent foreign ancestry, to be fair.

Albannach
01-10-2013, 04:34 PM
A few Swarthy Scots

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7471/010273707144700.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/010273707144700.jpg/)

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1087/realitytvcbb2013sam2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/442/realitytvcbb2013sam2.jpg/)

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/9695/47537831jex643492de281.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/47537831jex643492de281.jpg/)

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4779/58491212kennedymaryann6.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/651/58491212kennedymaryann6.jpg/)

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3352/47525638alexyoungbbc.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/441/47525638alexyoungbbc.jpg/)

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/3017/105b12921379fe6d9c6b937.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/105b12921379fe6d9c6b937.jpg/)

Jackson
01-10-2013, 04:39 PM
Mate, he's from fucking Liverpool and I know for a fact that accent doesn't grow on you unless you were born and raised there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os1FqiALTk4

Without a tan he doesn't look as exotic:
http://admin.mmaweekly.com/wp-content/uploads//2011/11/Terry-Etim-UFC-84-Weigh.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KDeBl1Avzj0/Ty0nagzo1kI/AAAAAAAAFSA/nUuL_OEB66w/s1600/etim%2BEdson%2BBarboza%2Bkick%2BPhotos%252C%2BBarb oza%2BKO%2BTerry%2BEtim%252C%2BUFC%2B142.jpg

It could also be the fact that he regularly cuts a lot of weight, as he fights in a weight class lower than his natural weight, which kind of distorts his appearance and gives him a more "gaunt" look.

As for Ray Dorset I have no idea. He's the only questionable one on that list, the rest are natives of the British Isles through and through.

Well i was just going on the picture you provided, in which he looks Near/Middle Eastern to me. In these other ones he still looks like he probably has ancestry from somewhere far afield. Whether he does or not i don't know.

Rřdskjegg
01-10-2013, 04:49 PM
Terry Etim:
http://media.ufc.tv/138/Photos/138_OW/10_138OpenWorkouts.jpg


He can't possibly be British :icon_neutral: Looks non-euro.

finţaų
01-10-2013, 05:07 PM
He can't possibly be British :icon_neutral: Looks non-euro.

He could pass unnoticed as a pure blatte in Sweden. :D

Corvus
01-10-2013, 05:09 PM
http://media.ufc.tv/138/Photos/138_OW/10_138OpenWorkouts.jpg

Looks half African/Carribean

Rřdskjegg
01-10-2013, 05:14 PM
His surname is not British either.

Corvus
01-10-2013, 05:16 PM
She is British for sure:

http://wallpaperbus.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/cute-keira-knightley.jpg

http://st.gdefon.ru/wallpapers_original/actors/64195_kira-najtli_or_keira-knightley_1600x1200_%28www.GdeFon.ru%29.jpg

Gospodine
01-10-2013, 05:28 PM
His surname is not British either.

Pretty sure it is an Anglo surname of some kind:
http://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?MS_AdvCB=1&gl=35&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=2&msT=1&gss=ms_f-35&gsfn_x=1&gsln=Etim&gsln_x=1&msbdy_x=1&msbpn_x=XO&msbpn__ftp_x=1&msrpn_x=XO&msrpn__ftp_x=1&msydy_x=1&msypn_x=XO&msypn__ftp_x=1&gskw_x=1&_83004002_x=1&cpxt=0&uidh=000&cp=0

Anyway, in that picture he looks to have tanned quite a lot.

007
01-10-2013, 06:38 PM
Yes, but we can assume their has been more gene-flow between the Mediterranean and Britain than there has been between Britain and Scandinavia.

Why would you assume that?

finţaų
01-10-2013, 06:48 PM
I'd say Britain is more Scandinavian-influenced than Mediterranean-influenced overall.

Bridie
01-10-2013, 06:51 PM
Etim doesn't look like a native surname.

It is Nigerian.

Gospodine
01-10-2013, 06:53 PM
I'd say Britain is more Scandinavian-influenced than Mediterranean-influenced overall.

Nobody's arguing against that.

le penalty
01-10-2013, 07:06 PM
::

le penalty
01-10-2013, 07:07 PM
::

le penalty
01-10-2013, 07:11 PM
Pretty sure it is an Anglo surname of some kind:
http://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?MS_AdvCB=1&gl=35&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=2&msT=1&gss=ms_f-35&gsfn_x=1&gsln=Etim&gsln_x=1&msbdy_x=1&msbpn_x=XO&msbpn__ftp_x=1&msrpn_x=XO&msrpn__ftp_x=1&msydy_x=1&msypn_x=XO&msypn__ftp_x=1&gskw_x=1&_83004002_x=1&cpxt=0&uidh=000&cp=0

Anyway, in that picture he looks to have tanned quite a lot.

You can be Jamaican with an English surname ...
He is clearly not fully English:
http://i46.tinypic.com/24dpkav.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/ws2r9z.jpg

Gospodine
01-10-2013, 07:26 PM
You can be Jamaican with an English surname ...
He is clearly not fully English:
http://i46.tinypic.com/24dpkav.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/ws2r9z.jpg

I was talking about Terry Etim, not Ray Dorset. Etim doesn't look part-Negro.

Jackson
01-10-2013, 09:06 PM
Why would you assume that?


1)Geography
2)Roman Empire
3)Bronze Age Trade
4)Bell Beakers


To name a few.

There was also plenty of trade between mainland England and Aquitaine in South-west France in the Middle Ages. Biggest of these was with wine i believe.

Jackson
01-10-2013, 09:30 PM
There were no results for Etim in Britain in the 1881 Census apparently, so nope tis foreign name.

Goobyski
01-10-2013, 09:31 PM
Lol at tags.

Albion
01-10-2013, 10:26 PM
1)Geography
2)Roman Empire
3)Bronze Age Trade
4)Bell Beakers


To name a few.

There was also plenty of trade between mainland England and Aquitaine in South-west France in the Middle Ages. Biggest of these was with wine i believe.

Aquitaine selling us wine doesn't make us Aquitainian. You also forgot the wine trade with Madeira, some of the vineyards there are actually run by very long established English families.
And I'd have brought up the Megalithic cultures myself, although Britain still has more in common genetically with Scandinavia than the Med. NW France is a different story altogether, but it's not the Med.

Jackson
01-11-2013, 12:31 AM
Aquitaine selling us wine doesn't make us Aquitainian. You also forgot the wine trade with Madeira, some of the vineyards there are actually run by very long established English families.
And I'd have brought up the Megalithic cultures myself, although Britain still has more in common genetically with Scandinavia than the Med. NW France is a different story altogether, but it's not the Med.

I didn't say trade with Aquitaine makes us Aquitainian. Generally when there are important trade links between two places, there is also a good route for small-scale migrants. I also didn't intend to list every single relation we have with Iberia or the Mediterranean World, just give a few examples.

Yes I've spent a good number of posts highlighting points related to genetics. I am not trying to 'Mediterraneanise' Britain, i just care that no parts are missed out.

Albion
01-11-2013, 07:28 AM
I didn't say trade with Aquitaine makes us Aquitainian. Generally when there are important trade links between two places, there is also a good route for small-scale migrants. I also didn't intend to list every single relation we have with Iberia or the Mediterranean World, just give a few examples.

Yes I've spent a good number of posts highlighting points related to genetics. I am not trying to 'Mediterraneanise' Britain, i just care that no parts are missed out.

Such migrations are minor. The Huguenots might have spread some of it though, some were from Southern France.

Bridie
01-11-2013, 08:53 AM
There were no results for Etim in Britain in the 1881 Census apparently, so nope tis foreign name.

I'll say it again.... it's a Nigerian name. This fellow's father is obviously part Nigerian.

Goobyski
01-11-2013, 08:54 AM
Mary...

Gospodine
01-11-2013, 09:30 AM
I'll say it again.... it's a Nigerian name. This fellow's father is obviously part Nigerian.

No it's not. Look up census records of the name. It's all found all over the Anglophone world.

Bridie
01-11-2013, 01:07 PM
No it's not. Look up census records of the name. It's all found all over the Anglophone world.

It's found in relatively high numbers in the US, Norway, UK, Sweden, Nigeria and Turkey. Strangely enough, there are high numbers of people of African origins in those countries also. (Goes without saying for Nigeria, of course!!)


http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?chs=440x220&cht=t&chtm=world&chf=bg,s,EAF7FE&chco=FFFFFF,DCE6F2,376092&chld=USNOGBSENGTR&chd=t:100,66.666666666667,66.666666666667,33.33333 3333333,33.333333333333,33.333333333333

http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?chs=440x220&cht=t&chtm=africa&chf=bg,s,EAF7FE&chco=FFFFFF,DCE6F2,376092&chld=NG&chd=t:100


Here's a famous "Etim"...

http://www.gistmania.com/talk?action=dlattach&topic=97348.0&attach=35270&image

Nse Ikpe Etim is a Nigerian actress.


For God's sake, the name even sounds African. It does not sound anything English. I don't know why you are in such denial.

Loki
01-11-2013, 01:11 PM
I have never even heard of the surname Etim. It certainly isn't English or native British.

Pretan
01-11-2013, 01:30 PM
Liverpool has an old former slave population, Etim probably comes from distant African relatives. He could be an Octoroon/Quadroon.


Liverpool is home to Britain's oldest Black community, dating to at least the 1730s, and some Blacks are able to trace their ancestors in the city back ten generations. Early Black settlers in the city included seamen, the children of traders sent to be educated, and freed slaves, since slaves entering the country after 1722 were deemed free men.

Bridie
01-11-2013, 02:33 PM
Liverpool has an old former slave population, Etim probably comes from distant African relatives.

If that were the case, he would have an English surname. But he doesn't.

Jackson
01-11-2013, 03:31 PM
Liverpool has an old former slave population, Etim probably comes from distant African relatives. He could be an Octoroon/Quadroon.

Yeah i agree, although he looks like he could be 1/4 Nigerian, or maybe 1/8 at least.

bella1407
01-11-2013, 04:49 PM
People, are u serious?:picard1: Etim is definitely non-english surname!!!

Neon Knight
01-11-2013, 05:04 PM
Variation in terms of pigmentation do exist in every european groups, you can find for istance a relativelly brunette skinned,brown eyed,almost black haired Dane and as well a milkish skinned,blue eyed and blonde haired Sicilian (of course the later would be much typical for the first one but that's not the point), i wonder why it's so difficult to accept.
Remember that once europeans where all dark haired and eyed and light features are relativelly recent (so it's quite normal that they aren't 100% dominant).
An injection of common sense :thumb001:. Internet anthro-hobbyists are always reaching for admixture theories to explain uncommon looks when simple normal variation is usually the reason.

http://images.monstermarketplace.com/sakuma-market-fresh-berries-online-store/seascape-strawberry-plant-spring-shipping-587x441.jpg
Same plant, different shapes and sizes of strawberry; no admixture from invading blackberries!

I've never known the word swarthy to refer to anything other than skin colour and be careful if you use it in Britain because it kind of means: 'a darker-skinned person who is probably a foreigner and probably cannot be trusted'; just say 'brown' instead. I wouldn't call Russel Brand swarthy - his dark eyes, hair and beard create the illusion. Here with Tom Cruise:

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article871771.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Tom+Cruise+and+Russell+Brand+arrive+at+the+Europea n+premiere+of+%27Rock+of+Ages%27,+at+the+Odeon+in+ Leicester+Square

Bloody
10-04-2013, 06:24 PM
No you are wrong Archangel, the British are in general a very nordic looking population. They are at least on the same level of nordicism as the North Germans or Dutch.

Are you being really serious? I've visited every corner of the Isles, My father being a brit and there is no way British Islanders are as a whole as Nordic looking as the Germans, Let alone the dutch (not even close).


Here you have some typical crowds of british people:

Honestly how many of those people look very nordic?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7bEyID7v1aM#t=32


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2qMKkoI_gE

Britain is mainly Altlantid/Paleoatlantid despite what american nordicist wanted to taught US

Comparison between British and other Northern european crowds.

British students:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66343000/jpg/_66343634_voxers_students.jpg

British sport fans (football and rugby)

http://images.teamtalk.com/09/03/800x600/Manchester-Fans-Manchester-United-Tottenham-H_1937910.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0EzM3bZUteg/T7CrqNQ8u2I/AAAAAAAAD0E/rR43zNQvuMM/s1600/manchester-united-fans.jpg
http://therugbycity.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/cardiff-varsity-fans.jpg
http://www.wru.co.uk/images/news/Hallett_fans.jpg
http://www.kibice-uk.net/images/wales/Welsh%20Fans%20in%20Pub.jpg
http://p2.trrsf.com.br/image/fget/cf/619/464/img.terra.com.br/i/2012/05/31/2362220-3818-rec.jpg
http://www.borderscollege.ac.uk/ckfinder/userfiles/images/News%20Photos%20March%202012/BASE-Football-Team-web.jpg
http://www.lcfc.com/cms_images/news/fansgv-4-3-lc4921-050280-403775_478x359.jpg
http://www.news10.net/images/640/360/2/assetpool/photogallery/193230/bolton-fans2-getty.jpg

Jackson
10-04-2013, 06:27 PM
Are you being really serious? I've visited every corner of the Isles, My father being a brit and there is no way we are as a whole as Nordic looking as the Germans, Let alone the dutch.


Here you have some typical crowds of british people:

Honestly how many of those people look very nordic?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7bEyID7v1aM#t=32


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2qMKkoI_gE

Britain is mainly Altlantid/Paleoatlantid despite what american nordicist wanted to taught US

Comparison between British and other Northern european crowds.

British students:

38192

British football fans:

38193

38194

38195

38196

38197

38198

Hmm most don't look all that typical to me, a lot of them even look foreign.. Maybe football fans are different? I don't think so though.

Corvus
10-04-2013, 06:27 PM
Are you being really serious? I've visited every corner of the Isles, My father being a brit and there is no way we are as a whole as Nordic looking as the Germans, Let alone the dutch.


Dear newcomer, let me ensure you that the British are one of the most Nordic looking population on this planet.
I have been on the island twice and I have eyewitnessed it firsthand.

Uhtred
10-04-2013, 06:32 PM
Britain is far from being swarthy, even though it is clearly daker than other Northern European groups. Here we have two sides of the same trollish coin: one that claims Brits are Nordic, and the other who claim they are dark. Both wrong assumptions for sure.

WOOHP
10-04-2013, 06:37 PM
I'd say Britain is more Scandinavian-influenced than Mediterranean-influenced overall.

Lol. No question about it.

Not a single pure Mediterreanid has been posted yet. Few examples have been dark. The rest, like Kate Middleton, Henry Cavill and Keira Knightley look still North/Northwestern Euro.
Henry Cavill would fit here in Sweden, as a "dark" Swede.

23 pages btw, interesting...

Bloody
10-04-2013, 06:38 PM
A contrast with other nothern European groups:

Danish:

http://nimg.sulekha.com/entertainment/original700/denmark-roskilde-festival-2011-7-2-7-10-39.jpg

http://rwrant.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Crowd-at-Roskilde-2011-in-Denmark.jpg

http://cphpost.dk/sites/default/files/20130611-crowd-folkemodet_2_web.jpg

http://traveljapanblog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/DSC_5160trim.jpg

http://jacobdinesen.net/gallery/2004/Metallica,_Parken,_2004/images/7BBF2514_RT8.jpg

http://jacobdinesen.net/gallery/2007/Metallica,_Vestereng,_2007/images/IDIOTER_C49F5837.jpg


Dutch:

http://semmelweis-egyetem.hu/english/files/2012/05/IMG_4345_681px.jpg


On a serious note, I dont know Why so many people (usually non-british Islanders themselves) have a romantized vision on how nordic the british Islanders are, It's like they still believe on old ideas of Benjamin franklin when a cheap flight by ryanair can be a big eye-opener.

WOOHP
10-04-2013, 06:42 PM
Britain is far from being swarthy, even though it is clearly daker than other Northern European groups. Here we have two sides of the same trollish coin: one that claims Brits are Nordic, and the other who claim they are dark. Both wrong assumptions for sure.

Which northern groups? You're on par with Belarussians, Russians, Germans and Lithuanians too probably. Slightly ligther than Poles and slightly darker than the Dutch. But not very far away from Latvians and Estonians. Only Scandinavians, Finns and Icelanders are noticeably ligther than Brits.

But go on, keep telling that I try to "Nordic wash" Brits just because I'm of the opinion that you overlap more with other Germanics than with Iberians. :rolleyes:

Albion
10-04-2013, 06:47 PM
Are you being really serious? I've visited every corner of the Isles, My father being a brit and there is no way British Islanders are as a whole as Nordic looking as the Germans, Let alone the dutch (not even close).


Here you have some typical crowds of british people:

Honestly how many of those people look very nordic?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7bEyID7v1aM#t=32


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2qMKkoI_gE

Britain is mainly Altlantid/Paleoatlantid despite what american nordicist wanted to taught US

Comparison between British and other Northern european crowds.

British students:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66343000/jpg/_66343634_voxers_students.jpg

British sport fans (football and rugby)

http://images.teamtalk.com/09/03/800x600/Manchester-Fans-Manchester-United-Tottenham-H_1937910.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0EzM3bZUteg/T7CrqNQ8u2I/AAAAAAAAD0E/rR43zNQvuMM/s1600/manchester-united-fans.jpg
http://therugbycity.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/cardiff-varsity-fans.jpg
http://www.wru.co.uk/images/news/Hallett_fans.jpg
http://www.kibice-uk.net/images/wales/Welsh%20Fans%20in%20Pub.jpg
http://p2.trrsf.com.br/image/fget/cf/619/464/img.terra.com.br/i/2012/05/31/2362220-3818-rec.jpg
http://www.borderscollege.ac.uk/ckfinder/userfiles/images/News%20Photos%20March%202012/BASE-Football-Team-web.jpg
http://www.lcfc.com/cms_images/news/fansgv-4-3-lc4921-050280-403775_478x359.jpg
http://www.news10.net/images/640/360/2/assetpool/photogallery/193230/bolton-fans2-getty.jpg

Another foreigner cherry picking photos...

Bloody
10-04-2013, 06:47 PM
Britain is far from being swarthy, even though it is clearly daker than other Northern European groups. Here we have two sides of the same trollish coin: one that claims Brits are Nordic, and the other who claim they are dark. Both wrong assumptions for sure.

I'm not claiming the brits are swarthy, But they are considerably darker and shorter than other northern european groups. Very few brits look stereotypically nordic as in corded/faelid/borreby. But if they usually have some borreby strains its often mixed with heavy atlantid/paleoatlantid influences.

I can easily see the big differences between a rando British crowd from a random Dutch, Danish or even German crowd, all who have way more big framed stereotypically nordic people, blonde hair being way more common than among brits and dark brown being consideably rarer (specially among danes/dutch/northern germans).

Uhtred
10-04-2013, 06:49 PM
Which northern groups? You're on par with Belarussians, Russians, Germans and Lithuanians too probably. Slightly ligther than Poles and slightly darker than the Dutch. But not very far away from Latvians and Estonians. Only Scandinavians, Finns and Icelanders are noticeably ligther than Brits.

But go on, keep telling that I try to "Nordic wash" Brits just because I'm of the opinion that you overlap more with other Germanics than with Iberians. :rolleyes:

I'm talking about phenotype. Regarding skin colour most of Brits are very light indeed, but when you analize hair colour, eye colour and facial traits, Brits diverge a little from their neighbours.

Corvus
10-04-2013, 06:50 PM
Even if these pictures are intended to portray the English as "swarthy" it defeats the purpose in my eyes.
Compare these people with any Mediterranians and you will notice a striking difference.

Bloody
10-04-2013, 06:51 PM
Which northern groups? You're on par with Belarussians, Russians, Germans and Lithuanians too probably. Slightly ligther than Poles and slightly darker than the Dutch. But not very far away from Latvians and Estonians. Only Scandinavians, Finns and Icelanders are noticeably ligther than Brits.

But go on, keep telling that I try to "Nordic wash" Brits just because I'm of the opinion that you overlap more with other Germanics than with Iberians. :rolleyes:

For starters who havent been to Britain, There is no way Britain is as blonde as germany, not even close. Germans are also more likely to be robust, tall and big boned. For everey relatively accurate study regarding physical appearance there are 20 falacies going on internet.

From the countries I've been in europe half of them have more blondes and nordic/germanic looking people than the UK and that Includes the whole Nordic countries, Netherlands, Germany, Baltic states, Czech, Austria, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus.

You might surprised how some areas in the UK have a short supply on natural blonde people and stereotypical nordic features.

Uhtred
10-04-2013, 06:51 PM
I'm not claiming the brits are swarthy, But they are considerably darker and shorter than other northern european groups. Very few brits look stereotypically nordic as in corded/faelid/borreby. But if they usually have some borreby strains its often mixed with heavy atlantid/paleoatlantid influences.

I can easily see the big differences between a rando British crowd from a random Dutch, Danish or even German crowd, all who have way more big framed stereotypically nordic people, blonde hair being way more common than among brits and dark brown being consideably rarer (specially among danes/dutch/northern germans).

I know. I agree with you. I think what makes Brits different is the Atlantid input that is less common in Germany and Scandinavia. I am myself an Atlanto-Brünn.

WOOHP
10-04-2013, 06:54 PM
I'm talking about phenotype. Regarding skin colour most of Brits are very light indeed, but when you analize hair colour, eye colour and facial traits, Brits diverge a little from their neighbours.
I'm talking mainly about hair and eye color frequencies. Light eyes: Jackson said about 75% are light/blue eyed, I'm thinking more like 80%. In Sweden I would say it's around 90%. 10-15% difference is not that great at all, considering the Swedish stereotype.
Germany, Russia, Belarus, Poland are all on the same level, with the Baltic states slightly ahead.

Light hair should be on the same level as other West Germanics and East Slavs + Poles.

Bloody
10-04-2013, 06:55 PM
I know. I agree with you. I think what makes Brits different is the Atlantid input that is less common in Germany and Scandinavia. I am myself an Atlanto-Brünn.

Atlanto-brunn by far the commonest phenotype among British Islanders. I neve understood those old anthropologist claiming keltic nordids were 50-60% of british isles phenotype variation, definitely not accurate at all. Most brits have some atlantid in or are either predominantly atlantid. Even when Brits have more stereotypically germanic phenotypes such as Borreby It comes along with some atlantid/paleoatlantid thrown in the mix.

Jackson
10-04-2013, 06:56 PM
I'm not claiming the brits are swarthy, But they are considerably darker and shorter than other northern european groups. Very few brits look stereotypically nordic as in corded/faelid/borreby. But if they usually have some borreby strains its often mixed with heavy atlantid/paleoatlantid influences.

I can easily see the big differences between a rando British crowd from a random Dutch, Danish or even German crowd, all who have way more big framed stereotypically nordic people, blonde hair being way more common than among brits and dark brown being consideably rarer (specially among danes/dutch/northern germans).

Some more Danish football fans:

http://static4.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/300-2/photos/1277474483-denmark-football-fans_366112.jpg
http://news.images.itv.com/image/file/42902/image_update_3a5b31f11801fd9d_1339268186_9j-4aaqsk.jpeg

Corvus
10-04-2013, 06:57 PM
For starters who havent been to Britain, There is no way Britain is as blonde as germany, not even close. Germans are also more likely to be robust, tall and big boned. For everey relatively accurate study regarding physical appearance there are 20 falacies going on internet.

From the countries I've been in europe half of them have more blondes and nordic/germanic looking people than the UK and that Includes the whole Nordic countries, Netherlands, Germany, Baltic states, Czech, Austria, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus.

You might surprised how some areas in the UK have a short supply on natural blonde people and stereotypical nordic features.

Well this might be true, even often such comparisons must be treated with caution. In my eyes in all the countries you mentioned the Nordic people clearly outnumber the Non-Nordic looking ones but this is due to the fact they are all Germanic, Slavic or Celtic descendants.
But to claim for example that this population is more Nordic looking than the other is not really legitimate.

Bloody
10-04-2013, 06:57 PM
I'm talking mainly about hair and eye color frequencies. Light eyes: Jackson said about 75% are light/blue eyed, I'm thinking more like 80%. In Sweden I would say it's around 90%. 10-15% difference is not that great at all, considering the Swedish stereotype.
Germany, Russia, Belarus, Poland are all on the same level, with the Baltic states slightly ahead.

Light hair should be on the same level as other West Germanics and East Slavs + Poles.

Don't believe Everything you see on the Internet most of those studies are hardly accurate. I rather get my impressions on first hand (from travels).


There is no way 80% brits are lighteyed, not even close.

WOOHP
10-04-2013, 06:58 PM
For starters who havent been to Britain, There is no way Britain is as blonde as germany, not even close. Germans are also more likely to be robust, tall and big boned. For everey relatively accurate study regarding physical appearance there are 20 falacies going on internet.

From the countries I've been in europe half of them have more blondes and nordic/germanic looking people than the UK and that Includes the whole Nordic countries, Netherlands, Germany, Baltic states, Czech, Austria, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus.

You might surprised how some areas in the UK have a short supply on natural blonde people and stereotypical nordic features.
What about these un cherry picked average students from England? I'm quite sure that you can find ligther group pics than these:

http://web.archive.org/web/20130827064146/http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8159/7297611394_bf9dc2a833_k.jpg

http://web.archive.org/web/20130827064146/http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7230/7297613342_6802e7bd85_k.jpg

Jackson
10-04-2013, 06:59 PM
Don't believe Everything you see on the Internet most of those studies are hardly accurate. I rather get my impressions on first hand (from travels).


There is no way 80% brits are lighteyed, not even close.

I live here and i'd say around 60-70% are, maybe less or more depending on where you go.

WOOHP
10-04-2013, 07:00 PM
Don't believe Everything you see on the Internet most of those studies are hardly accurate. I rather get my impressions on first hand (from travels).


There is no way 80% brits are lighteyed, not even close.
So do I. Brits look typical Northern Euros when it comes to pigmentation and a mix of Northern and Western Euro phenotypically speaking, but leaning more towards Northern Europe.

WOOHP
10-04-2013, 07:01 PM
I live here and i'd say around 60-70% are, maybe less or more depending on where you go.
Including green and light mixed types or just blue/grey?

Uhtred
10-04-2013, 07:01 PM
I'm talking mainly about hair and eye color frequencies. Light eyes: Jackson said about 75% are light/blue eyed, I'm thinking more like 80%. In Sweden I would say it's around 90%. 10-15% difference is not that great at all, considering the Swedish stereotype.
Germany, Russia, Belarus, Poland are all on the same level, with the Baltic states slightly ahead.

Light hair should be on the same level as other West Germanics and East Slavs + Poles.

Well, in Wales it drops to 53%.

WOOHP
10-04-2013, 07:04 PM
Well, in Wales it drops to 53%.

Doesn't make sense at all. A significant majority of all British Americans I know are light eyed.

Jackson
10-04-2013, 07:05 PM
Including green and light mixed types or just blue/grey?

Well blue eyes seem to the single most common group, although it's fairly common for the inclusion of small rings of green, or small brown crypts in the eyes and other things like that. So yeah light mixed included, green im not sure since green eyes that could be considered light are pretty rare.