Britain wants UK break up, poll shows

[Beorn]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00631/news-graphics-2006-_631094a.jpg


The United Kingdom should be broken up and Scotland and England set free as independent nations, according to a huge number of voters on both sides of the border.

A clear majority of people in both England and Scotland are in favour of full independence for Scotland, an ICM opinion poll for The Sunday Telegraph has found. Independence is backed by 52 per cent of Scots while an astonishing 59 per cent of English voters want Scotland to go it alone.
There is also further evidence of rising English nationalism with support for the establishment of an English parliament hitting an historic high of 68 per cent amongst English voters. Almost half – 48 per cent – also want complete independence for England, divorcing itself from Wales and Northern Ireland as well. Scottish voters also back an English breakaway with 58 per cent supporting an English parliament with similar powers to the Scottish one.


The poll comes only months before the 300th anniversary of the Act of Union between England and Scotland and will worry all three main political parties. None of them favours Scottish independence, but all have begun internal debates on the future of the constitution.
The dramatic findings came as Gordon Brown, the favourite to succeed Tony Blair as Prime Minister, delivered an impassioned defence of the Union at Labour's Scottish conference in Oban yesterday.
In an attack on the Scottish National Party, against whom Labour will fight a bitter battle for control of the Edinburgh-based parliament next May, the Chancellor claimed: "We should never let the Nationalists deceive people into believing that you can break up the United Kingdom."
The ICM poll told a very different story, however, with 60 per cent of English voters complaining that higher levels of public spending per head of the population in Scotland were "unjustified", compared to 28 per cent claiming they were justified. Even among Scots, 36 per cent said the system was unfair, with only 51 per cent supporting it.
Voters also had serious concerns about the so-called West Lothian Question, the ability of Scottish MPs at Westminster to vote on solely English matters while many purely Scottish issues are decided in Edinburgh. Sixty-two per cent of English voters want Scottish MPs stripped of this right and even 46 per cent of Scots agreed. The poll showed that the English are more likely to think of themselves as British than the Scots are. Only 16 per cent of English people said they were "English, not British", compared to 26 per cent of Scots who said they were "Scottish, not British."
In the sporting arena, 70 per cent of English people said they would support a Scottish team playing football or rugby against a nation other than England. But, when the question was put to Scots, only 48 per cent said they would back England with 34 per cent supporting their opponents, no matter which country it was.
There was good news for David Cameron, the Conservative leader, when voters in England were asked who they would back in a general election held tomorrow. The Tories were on 37 per cent, with 31 per cent backing Labour and 23 per cent supporting the Liberal Democrats.

Mr Brown said: "There is a debate to be had about the future of the United Kingdom. But I think when you look at the arguments — at the family ties, the economic connections, the shared values, the history of our relationship which has lasted 300 years — people will decide we are stronger together and weaker apart."
Mr Cameron said: "The union between England, Scotland and Wales is good for us all and we are stronger together than we are apart. The last thing we need is yet another parliament with separate elections and more politicians spending more money."
Sir Menzies Campbell, the Lib Dem leader, called for a "calm rational debate" on the role of MPs from Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales at Westminster. "The last thing we need is knee-jerk opportunistic political responses."
Alex Salmond, the SNP leader, said: "In England, people quite rightly resent Scottish Labour MPs bossing them about on English domestic legislation. England has as much right to self government as Scotland does."

Source (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535193/Britain-wants-UK-break-up-poll-shows.html)

Concoct the lie and repeat, repeat, repeat.

[Óttar]

Source (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535193/Britain-wants-UK-break-up-poll-shows.html)

Concoct the lie and repeat, repeat, repeat.

Yeah, but I doubt we'll ever see a serious referendum on this matter. The monarchy and other interest groups have all the money.

[Brännvin]

So if they want to go ahead I would love to see a referendum for the break up of the EU.

[007]

Are you going to have border controls between Scotland and England after the break up, Wat?

[Murphy]

As much as I would love to see national parliments again, I don't think it will happen any time soon.

Regards,
Eóin.

[Beorn]

Are you going to have border controls between Scotland and England after the break up, Wat?

I have thought about that very question (amongst others) often. Each time I have come to the conclusion that I would. It makes sense to protect your borders from every possible situation which could potentially threaten national security. Plus we'll get the chance to wave around our brand spanking new passports.


http://www.theenglandstore.com/shop/html/images/darkred.jpg

:D

[Murphy]

I have thought about that very question (amongst others) often. Each time I have come to the conclusion that I would. It makes sense to protect your borders from every possible situation which could potentially threaten national security. Plus we'll get the chance to wave around our brand spanking new passports.

Indeed. If say, Scotland had poor immigration laws you don't want illegals going through Scotland to get to England or vice versa. I have heard that it is quite common for illegals to get into Ireland via the UK.

Regards,
Eóin.

[Beorn]

I have heard that it is quite common for illegals to get into Ireland via the UK.

I've heard that myself. My journey from Bristol, through Wales and onto Ireland and ultimately to the North, I was not once asked for my passport or any identification. To say also that I could have smuggled in copious amounts of whatever I pleased along with myself does not bear thinking about.

[Liffrea]

Divide and rule?

As much as I consider myself English long before I would say British I think the British people’s have far bigger problems than allowing ourselves to be turned against each other. I would imagine having the Scots and English at each others throats suits the political elite (after all it was Labour who instituted devolution despite the general apathy in Wales and Scotland and then, cunningly, decided to keep the Barnett System and deny England a parliament, almost ensuring resentment north and south of the border). Now they play the pro-Unionist card when it was they who have done the most damage to the Union!

Ingenious, manipulative and devious to the end.

Both England and Scotland need to realise that Westminster is the biggest threat both face to the future of their respective nations, by all means discuss, eventually, an amicable end to the Union but let’s first ensure we have our nations to debate any future over because the way things are going it will be an irrelevant argument in the next few decades.

[Beorn]

the British people’s have far bigger problems than allowing ourselves to be turned against each other.

Who said we are turning against each other? I've only ever found a distinct admiration and mutual respect towards each nation achieving their independence. That isn't to say there are those who are plain jacketed bigots, but I can't see how implementing the process of independence would be divisive. If anything, it plays right out of their hands.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Wat Tyler
Who said we are turning against each other? I've only ever found a distinct admiration and mutual respect towards each nation achieving their independence. That isn't to say there are those who are plain jacketed bigots, but I can't see how implementing the process of independence would be divisive. If anything, it plays right out of their hands.

I would have said so as well, but focusing on Scottish independence, which is what the issue really is, is a distraction from the real threat of the EU. Strange, is it not, that Scottish resentment of “English rule” stirred up by false “nationalist” outfits like the SNP comes at a time when the constituent parts of the UK, via the Lisbon Treaty stand to lose any real semblance of independence they have? What’s the SNP’s slogan? An independent Scotland in Europe?! If Scottish, or English for that matter, independence is to be brought about by agencies such as that it can’t help but further the establishment agenda, as it is I don’t see one true nationalist party in Scotland or England of any importance that advocates independence.

Out of the frying pan into the fire?

[Beorn]

Strange, is it not, that Scottish resentment of “English rule” stirred up by false “nationalist” outfits like the SNP comes at a time when the constituent parts of the UK, via the Lisbon Treaty stand to lose any real semblance of independence they have?

I see what your saying, but I have to disagree. The SNP are a well entrenched Scottish independent party and have long spoken for the prevelant 'anti-Englishness' in Scotland. It could be said the dominance of recent Scottish independence is in part due to some nefarious Labour plan, but it has firmly blown up in their faces, but it does look to benefit the EU, which is a shame.


I don’t see one true nationalist party in Scotland or England of any importance that advocates independence. True, but there are many independent parties which do exist, but the hurdle to overcome is gathering people to vote, and those that do vote to derail from their usual parties.

[anonymaus]

As much as I would love to see national parliments again, I don't think it will happen any time soon.

Regards,
Eóin.

If this did happen, do you think the breakup of the UK power base would aid in Irish reconciliation by bringing everyone down to the same level?

[007]

Divide and rule?

Precisely. All the break up of the Union would accomplish is to allow Brussels to swallow bite sized pieces. Westmister would be gone, but would be replaced by the even worse rule of the EU. You're helping the enemy, Wat.

[Beorn]

You're helping the enemy, Wat.

I honestly can't see how.

Currently I vote BNP. I vote BNP simply because they have the largest clout to dole out towards the current British establishment and the EU.

If the following parties had a larger base, more simplified and common policies and were inclined to take the hand out of the multicultural pot, then my vote would go towards any of these following:

http://www.englishindependenceparty.com/

They insist England would be ruled by the English for the English. The EU can go and swing.

http://www.englishdemocrats.org.uk/

They have many pitfalls at present: Weak leadership, multicultural tendencies, etc..., but they are a fast growing party, which again, follow on the insistence that they would see England ruled by the English and the EU can go swing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_National_Party

This I don't bother about much. Too small, but they have an anti-EU policy as well.

And the list goes on. Each party which advocates for an independent England all insist on backing out of the EU.

[Skandi]

I have to say that breaking up Britain would be very bad. it would instantly remove all of the leverage in the EU England would not lose out terribly but Scotland and Wales would. Of course we would all have to renegotiate our entry and would probably lose any benefits that we currently manage. As for Scotland's independence I would love to say sure, there you go NO more money from us go it on your own, except we would still end up paying via the EU.

[ironman]

Divide and rule?

As much as I consider myself English long before I would say British I think the British people’s have far bigger problems than allowing ourselves to be turned against each other. I would imagine having the Scots and English at each others throats suits the political elite (after all it was Labour who instituted devolution despite the general apathy in Wales and Scotland and then, cunningly, decided to keep the Barnett System and deny England a parliament, almost ensuring resentment north and south of the border). Now they play the pro-Unionist card when it was they who have done the most damage to the Union!

Ingenious, manipulative and devious to the end.

Both England and Scotland need to realise that Westminster is the biggest threat both face to the future of their respective nations, by all means discuss, eventually, an amicable end to the Union but let’s first ensure we have our nations to debate any future over because the way things are going it will be an irrelevant argument in the next few decades.

Great post, i agree with all you have posted.

[Óttar]

http://www.englishindependenceparty.com/They insist England would be ruled by the English for the English. The EU can go and swing.
http://www.englishdemocrats.org.uk/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_National_Party

English Independence Party, English National Party, England First Party...:rolleyes2:

They need to stop all this splintering and unite into a Pan-English coalition. No more fighting for lost (and not to mention ill founded) causes like returning the Bayeaux Tapestry to England. A tapestry that was made for Normans, in a Norman style, and which has been in France for the past 700 years. :rolleyes:


If this did happen, do you think the breakup of the UK power base would aid in Irish reconciliation by bringing everyone down to the same level?
If the UK broke up the only sensible option would be for the six counties of "Loyal Ulster" to take the existing so called "Ulster third option" of having the 6 counties become an independent territory, i.e. nation state. Later on assuming there was a Republican majority in the 6 counties or some major economic incentive then there could be a referendum for union with the Irish Republic.

[Beorn]

No more fighting for lost (and not to mention ill founded) causes like returning the Bayeaux Tapestry to England. A tapestry that was made for Normans, in a Norman style, and which has been in France for the past 700 years. :rolleyes:

We'll just wait till the French Caliphate is under full control of France and ask if we can have it before they burn it. ;)

[Lahtari]

English Independence Party, English National Party, England First Party...:rolleyes2:

They need to stop all this splintering and unite into a Pan-English coalition.

Let me guess: the worst enemy of a nationalist is another nationalist. :p :rolleyes:

[SwordoftheVistula]

I don't see how independence for the constituent countries of the UK would result in a loss of influence in the EU. They already elect their own MEPs separately. If anything, 2-4 countries combined might have more influence than the one country alone does now.

[Freomæg]

There are far more crucial issues at hand than Scottish, English and Welsh independence. It's a cause for the future I say.

[007]

I honestly can't see how.

The EU wants the UK broken up into regions ruled direct from Brussels. Unless the UK withdraws from the EU before granting Wales and Scotland their independence, separatists will simply have done their work for them. Why do you think NuLabour pushed devolution through in the first place?


As for Scotland's independence I would love to say sure, there you go NO more money from us go it on your own, except we would still end up paying via the EU.

It's one thing our tax dollars going to Scotland, but what really burns me is when it goes even further afield. We need to get the hell out of the EU.

[SwordoftheVistula]

One more thought: wouldn't it be easier to gain an electoral majority in favor of withdrawing from the EU in one of the countries instead of in Great Britain as a whole?

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by SwordoftheVistula
One more thought: wouldn't it be easier to gain an electoral majority in favor of withdrawing from the EU in one of the countries instead of in Great Britain as a whole?

I can’t see how that would happen, all the major parties are in favour of EU membership, including the Scots “nationalist” (laugh my ass off) SNP.

Also does anyone in the UK as a whole seriously believe that the political elite have the integrity and honour to put the matter to the public? Remember Gordon Brown has lied to the public about the Lisbon Treaty and reneged on a previous promise to allow a referendum.

[SwordoftheVistula]

I can’t see how that would happen, all the major parties are in favour of EU membership, including the Scots “nationalist” (laugh my ass off) SNP.

Also does anyone in the UK as a whole seriously believe that the political elite have the integrity and honour to put the matter to the public? Remember Gordon Brown has lied to the public about the Lisbon Treaty and reneged on a previous promise to allow a referendum.

I don't see a withdrawal from the EU anytime in the near future regardless of whether the UK stays together or not. I was envisioning a scenario in which England manages to elect a small majority of euroskeptic MPs, but large majorities of pro-EU MPs in Scotland and Wales create a combined pro-EU majority in the UK parliament, sort of like how Labour can lose England but still retain power with large majorities in Scotland and Wales.