Poll: Is Spain less civilised now or was it less civilised under Moorish rule?

[Anglojew]

During the period of Moorish rule in Spain, then known as Al-Andalus , which lasted for about 700 years many claim Moorish rule lead to an enlightened Golden Age in which different faiths lived side-by-side harmoniously and an intellectual flowering occurred with huge developments in science, learning and architecture.


In 711 Muslim forces (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_1.shtml) invaded and in seven years conquered the Iberian peninsula.

It became one of the great Muslim civilisations; reaching its summit with the Umayyad caliphate of Cordovain the tenth century.

Muslim rule declined after that and ended in 1492 when Granada was conquered.


http://s4.hubimg.com/u/3985235_f260.jpg
Painting shows a Moor (who ruled over the Spanish masses during this period)


The Moors (http://www.spanish-web.com/history/moors.php)however built splendid palaces, with much evidence remaining today, and their capital was Cordoba - thought to have been the most civilised city in Europe around the 10th century.
The mosque at Cordoba became the second most important Muslim place of worship after Mecca, with a roof supported by 800 pillars of alternating red and white stone.

The Moors further developed agriculture, and in particular, irrigation, by channeling water to where it was needed- many of these systems are still in use today.
They also introduced citrus fruits, figs, pomegranates, sugar cane, cotton, silk and rice.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Al_Andalus.png

Some scholars claim that;


The Umayyad Caliphate of Cordoba (http://lostislamichistory.com/category/muslim-spain/)was the most powerful state in Western Europe politically as well as economically. The artistic, academic, and social achievements of al-Andalus rivaled that of any other part of the Muslim world at that time, including the advanced civilizations in Iraq, Egypt, and Persia

http://www.taneter.org/Chess_Moors.jpeg
Moors ruled and intermarried with Spaniards.

Today Spain is one of the worst performing economies in Europe;

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3YCEP5vRvVg/TsMGFQYlamI/AAAAAAAAAVA/OYR9_s7wGWY/s1600/EU+GDP+Forecast+for+2011.JPG

With mass unemployment;

http://www.stratfor.com/sites/default/files/main/images/Unemployment-Europe.jpg

http://www.stratfor.com/sites/default/files/styles/full_width/public/main/images/Unemployment_Youth_EU.jpg?itok=QUzDyEYj

Civil unrest;

http://i4.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article1437095.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Riots+2

So is Spain less civilised now or was it less civilised under Moorish rule?

[Lábaru]

Spain never was under the Moorish rule, that sentence is completely incorrect, my land is Spain too, the birthplace of the current Spanish language and never was ruled by Muslims.

[Tropico]

what in the actual fuck. How is AngloJew allowed to even post shit on here...

[Anglojew]

what in the actual fuck. How is AngloJew allowed to even post shit on here...

It's a valid question. Why don't you answer?

[Anglojew]

Spain never was under the Moorish rule, that sentence is completely incorrect, my land is Spain too, the birthplace of the current Spanish language and never was ruled by Muslims.

I'll have one ticket to Fantasyland please

http://www.calwatchdog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Fantasyland.jpg

[Tropico]

It's a valid question. Why don't you answer?

Its a stupid question meant to be one of your 30 a day Trolling on Spain threads. Posting cherry picked "evidence". Post crime rates compared to other European countries, rates of college graduations, rates of prison times and prisoner percentages compared to other countries, homicide rates, drug use, etc.

[HispaniaSagrada]

That's propaganda.

Here's my answer:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?83858-quot-Why-we-re-afraid-of-Islam-quot-Bill-Warner&p=1683063

[HispaniaSagrada]

Also notice his intentional wording:

Spain was less civilised under Moorish rule
Spain is less civilised today
Spain is just as uncivilised today as in the past

At the very least the first option could say "Spain is more civilized today than under Moorish rule" but he won't because, even though they say basically the same thing, the psychological effect of his wording has you hanging on "being less civilized"

Don't think he didn't word it that way on purpose.

[Lábaru]

I'll have one ticket to Fantasyland please

http://www.calwatchdog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Fantasyland.jpg

I'm sorry, but your knowledge of Spain is very poor, if you want talk about our history, you have to do it correctly, properly, if you want to be taken seriously.

[Tropico]

http://www.keepcalmandposters.com/posters/5058.png

[Anglojew]

Its a stupid question meant to be one of your 30 a day Trolling on Spain threads. Posting cherry picked "evidence". Post crime rates compared to other European countries, rates of college graduations, rates of prison times and prisoner percentages compared to other countries, homicide rates, drug use, etc.


http://i45.tinypic.com/309sxhh.jpg

http://www.ihra.net/files/images/orig/2010/06/13/WesternEurope-HIV.png

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46674000/gif/_46674277_top_5_cocaine_gra_466.gif

[Anglojew]

Also notice his intentional wording:

Spain was less civilised under Moorish rule
Spain is less civilised today
Spain is just as uncivilised today as in the past

At the very least the first option could say "Spain is more civilized today than under Moorish rule" but he won't because, even though they say basically the same thing, the psychological effect of his wording has you hanging on "being less civilized"

Don't think he didn't word it that way on purpose.

Should I change it to "Is Spain more uncivilised now or was it more uncivilised under Moorish rule?"

[Anglojew]

I'm sorry, but your knowledge of Spain is very poor, if you want talk about our history, you have to do it correctly, properly, if you want to be taken seriously.

How can you say the Moors never ruled Spain?

http://www.historyandcivilization.com/Moorish_Spain_c_1000.jpg

[Anglojew]

http://www.keepcalmandposters.com/posters/1156225.png

[riverman]

Simple answer, I don't know, however the question is not entirely without merit IMO.

[Lábaru]

How can you say the Moors never ruled Spain?

http://www.historyandcivilization.com/Moorish_Spain_c_1000.jpg

That's the Iberian Peninsula and only a part of the current Spain, my land was never ruled by Moors, you can not find any reliable source that says that nonsense.

[shade]

Spain has got a $1.5 trillion economy, making it one of the most powerful and prosperous countries in the world. It is a leading tourist destination and a leader in agricultural exports, motor vehicle production, and so on. University of Salamanca is the 5th oldest continuously functioning university in the world, and it was built not by the Muslim cockroaches who have been misrepresented by revisionists as being civilized, but under King Alfonso X.

Also some questionable historical "facts":



In 711 Muslim forces invaded and in seven years conquered the Iberian peninsula.

The Muslims invaded, but did NOT conquer all of Iberia and control it for 700 years. Rather, there was a conflict between Christians and Muslims for control of Iberia, and the Christians of course prevailed.

The kingdom of Asturia was founded ca. 718 after the Muslims were defeated by the local Asturians, which initiated the process of liberating Spain and expelling the Muslim cockroaches. The Navarre kingdom was founded in 824, and its kings went on to unite with Castile, Leon, and Aragon. And in 1037, Ferdinand united Castile and Leon. By 1100, most of Iberia had been liberated and was under Christian control:

http://researcharchive.calacademy.org/research/anthropology/persia/images/map2.jpg



It became one of the great Muslim civilisations; reaching its summit with the Umayyad caliphate of Cordovain the tenth century.
This ugly Muslim chauvinism of the allegedly great Muslim civilization is contrary to the historical facts. The Christians, not the Muslims, are the ones who have constructed just about every aspect of Spanish culture.

The National Library in Madrid, the Prado museum, Complutense University of Madrid - these were all built by Christians, not by the superior enlightened Muslims. El Greco, Cervantes, and other Spanish cultural figures, these guys were Christians, not Muslim.

[Anglojew]

That's the Iberian Peninsula and only a part of the current Spain, my land was never ruled by Moors, you can not find any reliable source that says that nonsense.

Where is your land?

[Anglojew]

Spain has got a $1.5 trillion economy, making it one of the most powerful and prosperous countries in the world. It is a leading tourist destination and a leader in agricultural exports, motor vehicle production, and so on. University of Salamanca is the 5th oldest continuously functioning university in the world, and it was built not by the Muslim cockroaches who have been misrepresented by revisionists as being civilized, but under King Alfonso X.

Spain's economy is the same size as Australia's but with twice the population.

[Methmatician]

How is HIV prevalence an indicator of being uncivilised?

[Lábaru]

Where is your land?

Cantabria, but in general the whole northern third of Iberia was free and anyway Spain did not exist as a country at that time, is of course related to Hispania, but not is the same thing.

[Incal]

Spain is one step ahead compared with most countries in the West because it's jew-free.

[Anglojew]

Cantabria, but in general the whole northern third of Iberia was free and anyway Spain did not exist as a country at that time, is of course related to Hispania, but not is the same thing.

http://www.spainthenandnow.com/userimages/Map%20al-Andalus%20750.%20Wikimedia%20Maps%20of%20Spain.png

[Anglojew]

Spain is one step ahead compared with most countries in the West because it's jew-free.

There's Jews in Spain both crypto and otherwise.

[Lábaru]

http://www.spainthenandnow.com/userimages/Map%20al-Andalus%20750.%20Wikimedia%20Maps%20of%20Spain.png

In that not accurate map "Asturias" is "Cantabria and Basque land", is the same place. in anyway the map is incorrect as the majority of your sources xD

[Anglojew]

In that not accurate map "Asturias" is "Cantabria", is the same place.

I'm no fan of Muslim rule in Europe but history's history.

[Baluarte]

After kicking the moors and kicking the Jews, Spain went on to become the leading global power of the first half of the early modern period, and then remained as one of the 3 most important European empires till the Age of the Revolutions.

Only good things came from the Alhambra Decree of 1492:thumb001:

[HispaniaSagrada]

Should I change it to "Is Spain more uncivilised now or was it more uncivilised under Moorish rule?"

That would be the same thing. Your manipulation still continues.

[Lábaru]

I'm no fan of Muslim rule in Europe but history's history.

that's the point, that map is incorrect. Look, this is the highest Muslim expansion that you can find and that only lasted a decade. --->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Map_of_expansion_of_Caliphate.svg/800px-Map_of_expansion_of_Caliphate.svg.png

[HispaniaSagrada]

I'm no fan of Muslim rule in Europe but history's history.

Too bad your history is wrong. The Musulmans never got a grip in the north. There was some presence but couldn't conquer. Then slowly over a long time they were re-invaded and pushed down further and further until finally they were gone. They like to repeat the lie that "We only didn't get a small little piece in the north of what is now Asturias"

[Ciro]

Moors were in Spain for over 700 years so they cant possibly not always be apart of them. That's why Spaniards seem so different from other western Europeans

[Baluarte]

^^ said by "Germanic" Northern Italian xD

[Lábaru]

^^ said by "Germanic" Northern Italian xD

He is a known troll, not an Italian.

[Anglojew]

that's the point, that map is incorrect. Look, this is the highest Muslim expansion that you can find and that only lasted a decade. --->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Map_of_expansion_of_Caliphate.svg/800px-Map_of_expansion_of_Caliphate.svg.png

Is that free area (from Muslim rule) Basque?

[HispaniaSagrada]

Moors were in Spain for over 700 years so they cant possibly not always be apart of them. That's why Spaniards seem so different from other western Europeans

Go back to the special classroom, Corky. This room here is for the normal kids.

[shade]

So, 80 years after the Muslim aggression, the Christians were in control of around 20% of Iberian territory. The Muslims did not control Iberia for 700 years, but only occupied portions of it at varying extents.

http://pages.uoregon.edu/mapplace/EU/EU17%20-%20Spain/Lindsay%27s%20Spain%20maps/Reconquista.%20Section%207/Section7.03.jpg


Is that free area (from Muslim rule) Basque?
Part of it is Basque, but not all of it.

[HispaniaSagrada]

Is that free area (from Muslim rule) Basque?

Looks to me like only a little bit of what is Basque land is free of Muslim presence. The rest looks like part of Asturias and Galicia basically.

Labaru said expansion, not rule, and like I said before some were present but not ruling.

[Lábaru]

Is that free area (from Muslim rule) Basque?

Asturias, Cantabria, Basque land and the Marca Hispanica of the East.
http://luisamariaarias.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/provincias-de-espac3b1a.jpg

Galicia and other areas of the North was just 10 years under Muslim rule, and only military.

[Anglojew]

Asturias, Cantabria, Basque land and the Marca Hispanica of the East.
http://luisamariaarias.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/provincias-de-espac3b1a.jpg

Galicia and other areas of the North was just 10 years under Muslim rule, and only military.


I have to admire spanish tenacity to rule yourselves. It's weird then you don't support Jewish self-determination eg Zionism.

[Lábaru]

I have to admire spanish tenacity to rule yourselves. It's weird then you don't support Jewish self-determination eg Zionism.

Jews were allies of the Muslim invasion, the reason was obvious, your admired Goths hunted the Jews like rats, one of the reasons why Cantabria and Basque Lands had a chance is because was a forbidden territory for Jews.

[Teyrn]

Judea was destroyed by Hadrian- a Spaniard. I doubt Judea was very civilized after this. :rolleyes:

[HispaniaSagrada]

I have to admire spanish tenacity to rule yourselves. It's weird then you don't support Jewish self-determination eg Zionism.

Maybe what you and Spaniards think is Zionism is different.

The multiculturalism alone is enough to give proud Spaniards shivers.

What is Zionism to you? What's in the protocols? I'm not sure I know where you're coming from.

[Teyrn]

For what it's worth Zionism is often mistaken for Judaism- but the two are not the same thing. There are religious Jews who oppose Zionism on religious grounds, for example. Judaism follows Moses; Zionists follow Herzl.

[HispaniaSagrada]

For what it's worth Zionism is often mistaken for Judaism- but the two are not the same thing. There are religious Jews who oppose Zionism on religious grounds, for example. Judaism follows Moses; Zionists follow Herzl.

I know there are Jew who oppose it but there are lay-Jews who have their own views about things (accurate or inaccurate) just like there are lay-Catholics, etc., who are the same.

[Teyrn]

The long Muslim occupation of Spain occured because the Franks weren't powerful enough to drive the Muslims out of Europe after the victory at Tours. Charles the Great launched attacks into Iberia that were ultimately inconclusive.

http://www.thenagain.info/webchron/westeurope/CharleSpain.html

[Teyrn]

I know there are Jew who oppose it but there are lay-Jews who have their own views about things (accurate or inaccurate) just like there are lay-Catholics, etc., who are the same.

Yes; the secular Catholics are either indifferent or opposed to Catholicism- just as with their Jewish analogues.

[Smeagol]

Spain was most civilized from 1492 until the mid 17th century.

[Smeagol]

You posted some very inaccurate pictures of Moors by the way, they were not negroes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MuslimMusiciansAtTheCourtOfRoger.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Leo_africanus.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maler_der_Geschichte_von_Bayâd_und_Riyâd_002. jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jaume_I,_Cantigas_de_Santa_Maria,_s.XIII.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Castillia.jpg

[CrystalMaiden]

It's a valid question. Why don't you answer?

First answer mine, Jew!

And yes Jew, Spain was probably at it's best when ruled by the Omayyad Caliphate :thumb001:

[Smeagol]

[QUOTE=Horatio;1697509]You posted some very inaccurate pictures of Moors by the way, they were not negroes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Castillia.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Leo_africanus.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Maler_der_Geschichte_von_Bayâd_und_Riyâd_002.jpg

[Amun]

I'd say that on the early stages of Muslims rule of Andalusia, Spain was one of the most open-minded prosper societies in all Europe

[Lábaru]

I'd say that on the early stages of Muslims rule of Andalusia, Spain was one of the most open-minded prosper societies in all Europe

Probably in the whole world, but only until the tenth century, before of the North African invasion, when there was still majority Christian population in southern Iberia.

[WOOHP]

I try to stay out of threads regarding Iberians. But this jew is right.

The answer is pretty simple. Iberia during Moorish rule was far better than rest of Europe. Today Spain and Portugal are the worst countries of the western world.

[Baluarte]

I try to stay out of threads regarding Iberians. But this jew is right.

The answer is pretty simple. Iberia during Moorish rule was far better than rest of Europe. Today Spain and Portugal are the worst countries of the western world.

And you've never been to Iberia, so kindly piss off yank.

The worst country in the "Western world" is precisely the Jewnited States of America. Piece of shit land and culture.

[WOOHP]

And you've never been to Iberia, so kindly piss off yank.

The worst country in the "Western world" is precisely the Jewnited States of America. Piece of shit land and culture.

True we are very judaised. But we still are a great nation with high living standard. DESPITE the outrageous number 40% non-Whites.

Spain got way less non-whites and is less judaised population but look at their current situation.

[Anglojew]

Not worth the bullet it'd take to kill you.

I think your moorish ancestry is coming out here.

[Wolf]

So is Spain less civilised now or was it less civilised under Moorish rule?

The comparison of a medieval realm with a modern state is rather difficult, isn't it?

[Vasconcelos]

I think your moorish ancestry is coming out here.

It's the viking genes from Povoa de Varzim.

[WOOHP]

The comparison of a medieval realm with a modern state rather difficult, isn't it?

Do a comparison with the rest of Europe(Spain vs Europe), now and then.

[Anglojew]

Do a comparison with the rest of Europe(Spain vs Europe), now and then.

The Spanish share an inability for self-criticism and self-reflection with their former Muslim overlords. No matter how much I'm surprised by the lack of achievements of modern Spain and the entitlement mentality of the Spanish (another trait in common with the Arabs) I'm more surprised by the inability of Spaniards to reflect neutrally on their place in the world. Their national pastime seems to be blaming someone else.

[Wolf]

Do a comparison with the rest of Europe(Spain vs Europe), now and then.

The European civilization as a whole is endangered today. We should compare today's Europe with the former Europe, that would be more useful in my opinion.

[WOOHP]

The European civilization as a whole is endangered today. We should compare today's Europe with the former Europe, that would be more useful in my opinion.
True ofc. But you cannot deny that fact that Spain, Greece, Portugal are in a far worse condition than lets say Sweden. Despite that the latter one is more "judaised(what ever that is)" and got more non-white immigrants per capita.

[Baluarte]

If a Jew and Yank dance together and come to hate, it only means you're doing something right.

Awesome!

[Wolf]

But you cannot deny that fact that Spain, Greece, Portugal are in a far worse condition than lets say Sweden.

I never did so.



Despite that the latter one is more "judaised(what ever that is)" and got more non-white immigrants per capita.

That speaks in favor of Sweden in my opinion. They still perform quite well despite this disadvantage.

[WOOHP]

That speaks in favor of Sweden in my opinion. They still perform quite well despite this disadvantage.

That's what I wrote? The fact that Germany is the worlds 4th largest economy and France the 5th despite their what? 10%? 20%? Non-white population is really impressive. And no one would ever say that France is less judaised than Spain.

[Ibericus]

http://www.ediporcguia.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/800x800/Cerdos%20de%20culo.jpg

[mr. logan]

There was never a high arabic culture. Otherwise, where is it 1500 years later? Working in Spain and Europe for low wages.
The biggest problem in Spain is the arabic mix left behind, the mestizos. That is the dead weight. They render the place where they are unproductive. Senseless thread.

[Wolf]

http://www.ediporcguia.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/800x800/Cerdos%20de%20culo.jpg

Tasty ham! :yumyum:

http://www.spanien-discount.info/documents/products/Listenansicht/JAMS001.jpg

[Damião de Góis]

True ofc. But you cannot deny that fact that Spain, Greece, Portugal are in a far worse condition than lets say Sweden. Despite that the latter one is more "judaised(what ever that is)" and got more non-white immigrants per capita.

It depends on the perspective. Sweden being the rape capital of the world is not a place i would want to go to.

[Empecinado]

The best time to Spain as a cultural level it is just the time after the conquest of the last Muslim kingdom and the expulsion of the Jews. The School of Salamanca, existing at the time, was the place where, for the first time, developed concepts such as individual freedom, market economy (without usury) or international law:


The juridical doctrine of the School of Salamanca represented the end of medieval concepts of law, with a revindication of liberty not habitual in Europe of that time. The natural rights of man came to be, in one form or another, the center of attention, including rights as a corporeal being (right to life, economic rights such as the right to own property) and spiritual rights (the right to freedom of thought and to human dignity).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_Salamanca

And also, during the Reconquista, when Spain was only a few kingdoms in the north, in the majority had one of the freest societies in its time. The differential fact of Spain, for me the cause of advancing the northern kingdoms and later of the Empire, is that had one of the few areas of Europe where there was not feudalism, but a societies of free men. The example of the Hidalgos class, Parliaments where the common people was represented (like the Leon one), communal lands administrated by the neighbors, free peasant societies, popular assemblies where even woman could participate and be elected.

Even not existed in Europe (except Medieval Iceland) a institution more democratic that councils system (Concejos) that existed in much of Spain until 19th century and, much weaker, until about the 1970-80. There are still some nowadays, but are exceptions.

[WOOHP]

It depends on the perspective. Sweden being the rape capital of the world is not a place i would want to go to.

Heh. Yeah sure because of the ethnic Swedes, right?

The reason is ofc because the unrecorded cases are far less in Sweden than other countries. I bet 90% of all "home-rapes" in Portugal arn't reported. Whilst in Sweden it isn't like that.

Swedish women arn't afraid of reporting unfamiliar immigrants nor their husbands when it comes to rape or other sexuall assaults.

[Damião de Góis]

Heh. Yeah sure because of the ethnic Swedes, right?

The reason is ofc because the unrecorded cases are far less in Sweden than other countries. I bet 90% of all "home-rapes" in Portugal arn't reported. Whilst in Sweden it isn't like that.

Swedish women arn't afraid of reporting unfamiliar immigrants nor their husbands when it comes to rape or other sexuall assaults.

I'm afraid your betting skills aren't a proper source.

[WOOHP]

I'm afraid your betting skills aren't a proper source.

What's your explanation then? Ethnic Swedes are more rapefriendly than other people? Sweden is higher up in rape per capita list than India. Do you actually believe that? No, it has to be that the Swedish society is far more feministic.

[RussiaPrussia]

another thread of anglo trying to bash spanish

[Damião de Góis]

What's your explanation then? Ethnic Swedes are more rapefriendly than other people? Sweden is higher up in rape per capita list than India. Do you actually believe that? No, it has to be that the Swedish society is far more feministic.

I don't know. I'm not interested in finding out either, but numbers are what they are.

[Insuperable]

I don't know. I'm not interested in finding out either, but numbers are what they are.

But you do know numbers are due to immigrants?

[Philo]

I voted they're less civilized today. Muslim Spain was very civilized compared to Europe at the time


what in the actual fuck. How is AngloJew allowed to even post shit on here...

If you don't like it:
http://captionsearch.com/pix/thumb/pijobf4e8h-t.jpg

[Damião de Góis]

But you do know numbers are due to immigrants?

Isn't your "sucking nordic cock" thread elsewhere? Or you want to continue sucking here too?

[Insuperable]

Isn't your "sucking nordic cock" thread elsewhere? Or you want to continue sucking here too?

Tsk tsk tsk If you have nothing to say you do not have to behave like that tsk tsk tsk

[Vasconcelos]

That didn't make any sense. As usual.

[Insuperable]

That didn't make any sense. As usual.

Its ok dude. You will understand eventually.

I was just addressing a certain post and Alex spits all over me.

[WOOHP]

I don't know. I'm not interested in finding out either, but numbers are what they are.

Funny. Everyone knows that the amount of unrecorded cases in Europe is huge. Especially in more religious/conservative countries in the East and South.

Well anyway. Even with those high numbers, Sweden ranks top 5 in HDI list which also shows the visible difference between Northwest and rest of Europe regarding living standard.

[Damião de Góis]

Funny. Everyone knows that the amount of unrecorded cases in Europe is huge. Especially in more religious/conservative countries in the East and South.

Oh no it isn't like that. Sort the 2010 column, and see that Sweden is a special case compared to everyone else, including their neighbours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

Other countries have immigrants as well, so blaming this on immigrants is flawed logic.


Well anyway. Even with those high numbers, Sweden ranks top 5 in HDI list which also shows the visible difference between Northwest and rest of Europe regarding living standard.

Yes, even despite all the rape... good work.

[Insuperable]

@ Alex don't be butthurt

[WOOHP]

Oh no it isn't like that. Sort the 2010 column, and see that Sweden is a special case compared to everyone else, including their neighbours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

Just like I said. If you had read my post.

Swedish women are more ready to report both foreign men and their husbands for rape. It's hard to accept that Swedish men, ethnic Swedish men rape more than the Danes or Norwegians.

[Durbedico]

It's the viking genes from Povoa de Varzim.

Oh man, im from Povoa de Varzim. I remember that when i was a kid, some of those blond kid, were as bad as gypsies.

[Odin]

Less civilized under Moorish rule.

[Dandelion]

Spain is obviously more civilised now (no-brainer) and probably also was after the Reconquista. Moorish Spain had slavery. Though the Spanish Empire also used slaves in the colonies.

Poll should've been public. I'm curious how many muslims voted for option #2. lol

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Well they certainly introduced bathing once a day thats for sure.

[sean]

It's difficult to generalise over a long period, though it is true that in their heyday around the 8th-11th century, Andalusia was amongst the best off region in Europe, having both a strong agricultural base and strong trade with a wide region, and was also the center of much philosophical thinking.

British historian Basil Davidson wrote that there were no lands in the 8th century "more admired by its neighbours, or more comfortable to live in, than a rich African civilisation which took shape in Spain".

After Reconquista, their only time of relevance was during the age of exploration and when they had colonies in the Americas and other places around the world. They lost all of their colonies by the end of the 1800s. They had no significant manufacturing history outside of art and so their economy was absolutely shit without the colonies propping them up.

Spain entered the 20th century with no colonies and no industry. This is why Spain succumbed to civil war unlike other European countries. It was so poor that communism (and anarchism I guess) seemed like a really viable and desirable option for a lot of people. Of course Franco won the war.

Under Franco, most Spaniards were poor and miserable. There was no great nationalist will to power driving people to improve themselves; most people lived their lives in mediocrity more or less as they do anywhere, except that economic growth and entrepreneurship was stifled by the overly powerful government, leading to unusually poor conditions relative to similarly developed nations. Today, Barcelona is the only area that actually produces anything on industrial scale.

[Adamastor]

After Reconquista, their only time of relevance was during the age of exploration and when they had colonies in the Americas and other places around the world. They lost all of their colonies by the end of the 1800s. They had no significant manufacturing history outside of art and so their economy was absolutely shit without the colonies propping them up.



Actually the colonies were the nail in the coffin of both Spain and Portugal. They became used to receive tons of goods from the colonies without working too much on them, most of the relevant manufacture and hard intellectual work was done elsewhere. They were rich just for extracting absurd amounts of gold, silver and plantations from the colonies.
So in consequence they became complacent and unproductive due to all of these goods. The Portuguese and Spaniards were not that much intellectually prepared to the deeds they have done (which were indeed impressive): they were like the barbarians of Western Europe at the time of the Age of Explorations.

One of the main reasons Portugal was the first European country to explore the Atlantic was merely geographic, they had nowhere else to go. In the end they did great things, but they never used the resources in an intelligent way. A good portion of the capital the British used to finance the Industrial Revolution was taken from the gold the Portuguese extracted from gold mines in Brazil. But since they were not smart enough to use this in a proper way, most of the gold ended up in British hands through unequal commercial treaties signed by both countries.


If the main European powers behind the first Age of Explorations were Venice or Genoa they would have remained significant powers until our age. They had everything needed to succeed (intellectual capabilities, engineering, enterpreneurship, a developed commercial culture etc.), but were located in a very bad geographic milieu, unlike Iberians.

[Duffmannn]

When I read this boy, I´m more pride of the expelling of the jews of Spain.

http://www.editoriallapaz.org/images-default-folder/judios-salen-cartagena.jpg

[Duffmannn]

If the main European powers behind the first Age of Explorations were Venice or Genoa they would have remained significant powers until our age. They had everything needed to succeed (intellectual capabilities, engineering, enterpreneurship, a developed commercial culture etc.), but were located in a very bad geographic milieu, unlike Iberians.

Venice and Genoa were satellite countries of Spain.

[Adamastor]

Venice and Genoa were satellite countries of Spain.

Later, I'm talking about pre-discoveries times. Venice and Genoa declined economically exactly because the Portuguese reached Asia and found other ways of trading spices in Europe. But the Iberian discoveries in the end achieved nothing for the Iberians themselves in the long run...

[Joso]

Later, I'm talking about pre-discoveries times. Venice and Genoa declined economically exactly because the Portuguese reached Asia and found other ways of trading spices in Europe. But the Iberian discoveries in the end achieved nothing for the Iberians themselves in the long run...

True, they ve thrown all the gold they robbed at the trash

[Duffmannn]

It's difficult to generalise over a long period, though it is true that in their heyday around the 8th-11th century, Andalusia was amongst the best off region in Europe, having both a strong agricultural base and strong trade with a wide region, and was also the center of much philosophical thinking.

British historian Basil Davidson wrote that there were no lands in the 8th century "more admired by its neighbours, or more comfortable to live in, than a rich African civilisation which took shape in Spain".

After Reconquista, their only time of relevance was during the age of exploration and when they had colonies in the Americas and other places around the world. They lost all of their colonies by the end of the 1800s. They had no significant manufacturing history outside of art and so their economy was absolutely shit without the colonies propping them up.

Spain entered the 20th century with no colonies and no industry. This is why Spain succumbed to civil war unlike other European countries. It was so poor that communism (and anarchism I guess) seemed like a really viable and desirable option for a lot of people. Of course Franco won the war.

Under Franco, most Spaniards were poor and miserable. There was no great nationalist will to power driving people to improve themselves; most people lived their lives in mediocrity more or less as they do anywhere, except that economic growth and entrepreneurship was stifled by the overly powerful government, leading to unusually poor conditions relative to similarly developed nations. Today, Barcelona is the only area that actually produces anything on industrial scale.

The per capita income by purchasing parity (thus, having into account the cost of living in each country) between Canada and Spain is low.

We must take into account that Canada is a huge territory with massive productions of oil, wood, minerals, agricultural fertile lands, fishing, and Spain is a dry country, with poor agricultural lands and far from the european economic center. Also Spain has a very big population of gypsies than do not produce nothing, but they have to be taken into accounti on these statistics, so the difference of income between Canada and Spain (real spaniards) is even lower.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

So the evolution is really good, in a few decades Spain will be richer than Canada, despite its huge resources, and now it´s becoming a shithole way the massive importation of thirdworlders.

[Duffmannn]

Later, I'm talking about pre-discoveries times. Venice and Genoa declined economically exactly because the Portuguese reached Asia and found other ways of trading spices in Europe. But the Iberian discoveries in the end achieved nothing for the Iberians themselves in the long run...

Of course not, nowadays the biggest business and enterprises in Spain still have a monopolistic control of many (if not most) the economic sectors in the latin american countries, there are some where it is shared with the americans (Mexico, Panama mainly), even in Brazil. One of the biggest resources of the country.

I know it very well because I have worked with spanish multinationals there.

[Duffmannn]

Later, I'm talking about pre-discoveries times. Venice and Genoa declined economically exactly because the Portuguese reached Asia and found other ways of trading spices in Europe. But the Iberian discoveries in the end achieved nothing for the Iberians themselves in the long run...

You idealice so much Italy.

It´s a more mediocre country than Spain in every sense.

[Adamastor]

Of course not, nowadays the biggest business and enterprises in Spain still have a monopolistic control of many (if not most) the economic sectors in the latin american countries, there are some where it is shared with the americans (Mexico, Panama mainly), even in Brazil. One of the biggest resources of the country.

I know it very well because I have worked with spanish multinationals there.

Still, Spain was poorer than most of Western Europe from 1800 to early 1980s... Only now Spain recovered and Portugal still is the poorer Western European country.

[Mopi Licinius Crassus]

You idealice so much Italy.

It´s a more mediocre country than Spain in every sense.

when i visited naples a few years ago, i was amazed

its like the 3rd world

no spanish city is as dirty or disorganised...not by a long way

[Adamastor]

You idealice so much Italy.

It´s a more mediocre country than Spain in every sense.

South Italy, yeah. Northern Italy would be one of the richest European countries if it was a country.

Also, the foundational achievements of Western Culture were all developed in Italy, from the classical times to Renaissance. I don't even need to name the thousands of inventors, writers, philosophers, architects, scientists Italy produced in the Renaissance. Italian Renaissance was one of the biggest achievements of all human history. Even in more modern times Italy has been more productive than Spain in arts, science and inventions.

I don't dislike Spain, don't get me wrong, but I try to be objective.

[Tietar]

Spain was much more civilized than Al-Andalus, where slavery existed

http://agrega.juntadeandalucia.es/repositorio/23032017/f3/es-an_2017032312_9134002/peninsula_1170_350.png


The Cortes of León from year 1188 was a parliamentary body in the medieval Kingdom of León. According to UNESCO it is the first documented written example of modern parliamentarism in the history of Europe.[1]

After coming to power, King Alfonso IX, faced an attack by his two neighbours, Castile and Portugal, decided to summon the Curia regis. This was a mediæval organisation composed of aristocrats and bishops, but because of the seriousness of the situation and the need to maximise political support, Alfonso IX took the decision to also call the representatives of the urban middle class from the most important cities of the kingdom to the assembly.[2]

However, all these meetings were exceptional and did not lead to a regular attendance of town representatives in the Curiae.

León's Cortes dealt with matters like the right to private property, the inviolability of domicile, the right to appeal to justice opposite the King and the obligation of the King to consult the Cortes before entering a war

https://thereaderwiki.com/en/Cortes_of_Le%C3%B3n#cite_note-1


https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-O9_MJN9LPUo/WSW5pw1ZEEI/AAAAAAAAWNI/eEy81bMKk3wtXxiElBrX8NBfkoZT31glACLcB/s1600/Captura.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7300/8807167614_6396eb9731_o.jpg

[Nassbean]

Spain was much more civilized than Al-Andalus, where slavery existed

http://agrega.juntadeandalucia.es/repositorio/23032017/f3/es-an_2017032312_9134002/peninsula_1170_350.png


The Cortes of León from year 1188 was a parliamentary body in the medieval Kingdom of León. According to UNESCO it is the first documented written example of modern parliamentarism in the history of Europe.[1]

After coming to power, King Alfonso IX, faced an attack by his two neighbours, Castile and Portugal, decided to summon the Curia regis. This was a mediæval organisation composed of aristocrats and bishops, but because of the seriousness of the situation and the need to maximise political support, Alfonso IX took the decision to also call the representatives of the urban middle class from the most important cities of the kingdom to the assembly.[2]

However, all these meetings were exceptional and did not lead to a regular attendance of town representatives in the Curiae.

León's Cortes dealt with matters like the right to private property, the inviolability of domicile, the right to appeal to justice opposite the King and the obligation of the King to consult the Cortes before entering a war

https://thereaderwiki.com/en/Cortes_of_Le%C3%B3n#cite_note-1


https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-O9_MJN9LPUo/WSW5pw1ZEEI/AAAAAAAAWNI/eEy81bMKk3wtXxiElBrX8NBfkoZT31glACLcB/s1600/Captura.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7300/8807167614_6396eb9731_o.jpg


Pure propaganda ...all serious people who have study this era know very well that al-andalus was way more civilized than any other parts of iberia ( it's not a coincidence if the majority of the most visited monuments were built by the moors) and wtf are you even talking about you think spaniards in america never enslaved amerindians or black africans to work on their fields ?? ( also posting paintings from the XIXth century won't help you ) :picard1:

[Nassbean]

"Spain was much more civilized than Al-Andalus, where slavery existed" ...

Reality :


the libraries of Moorish Spain contained close to a million manuscripts…in Cordoba books were more eagerly sought than beautiful concubines or jewels…the city's glory was the Great Library established by Al-Hakam II…ultimately it contained 400, 000 volumes…on the opening page of each book was written the name, date, place of birth and ancestry of the author, together with the titles of his other works. Forty-eight volumes of catalogues, incessantly amended, listed and described all titles and contained instructions on where a particular work could be found. It was only with the Reconquest of Spain and Sicily by the Normans in the 13th century that much of this material was closely scrutinized by the Church, or physically removed for 'safekeeping' in the new universities or palaces of Europe. 43 The scribes of Christendom had never seen anything like the wealth of knowledge produced under the reign of the Spanish Arabs. The introduction of the more economical paper medium was also, as noted, a crucial boost to European literacy. 44 Compared to their monastic brothers in the north, the secular Arab scribes also had the benefit of much wider literacy, as well as unhindered trade access to all manner of bibliographic materials (ink, paper, etc.) from the East.


In the ninth century, the library of the monastery of St. Gall was the largest in Europe. It boasted 36 volumes. At the same time, Cordoba’s library contained over 500,000! Moreover, studying at colleges was first applied by Muslims. Universities first appeared in Muslims countries in the late 600s and the early 700s, while leading colleges, like Oxford and the University of Paris (French: Université de Paris), were founded in the thirteenth century.Amazingly, early European universities were also funded by trusts similar to Islamic ones. Some historians even trace old European colleges back to the Islamic system as their internal organization was very similar to the Islamic one. For example, the idea of Graduate (Sahib) and undergraduate (mutafaqqih) is derived directly from Islamic terms.All the Islamic discoveries were used by the Europeans as the raw material for the Scientific Revolution. It’s tragic how Muslims’ contributions go by unacknowledged by Europe, whose renaissance couldn’t have occurred without the Islamic discoveries.

source : C. Prince, "The Historical Context of Arabic Translation, Learning, and The Libraries of Medieval Andalusia", Library History, v. 18, July 2002, pp. 73-87.


For there was nothing like it, at that epoch, in the rest of Europe. The best minds in that continent looked to Spain for everything which most clearly differentiates a human being from a tiger. (Cleugh, 1953, p. 70)


In another of James Burke's works titled "Connections," he describes how the Moors thawed out Europe from the Dark Ages. "But the event that must have done more for the intellectual and scientific revival of Europe was the fall of Toledo in Spain to the Christians, in 1105." In Toledo the Arabs had huge libraries containing the lost (to Christian Europe) works of the Greeks and Romans along with Arab philosophy and mathematics. "The Spanish libraries were opened, revealing a store of classics and Arab works that staggered Christian Europeans." (Burke, 1978, p. 123)


It's fascinating to realize just how much Europe learned from the Moorish texts and even greater to see how much that knowledge has endured. Because of the flood of knowledge, the first Universities started to appear. College and University degrees were developed (Burke, 1985, p. 48). Directly from the Arabs came the numerals we use today. Even the concept of Zero (an Arabic word) came from the translations (Castillo & Bond, 1987, p. 27) . Along with texts, Arabic music spread throughout Europe, giving us the keyboard, the flute and the concept of harmony. It's also fair to say that renaissance architectural concepts came from the Moorish libraries. Mathematics and architecture explained in the Arab texts along with Arab works on optics led to the perspective paintings of the renaissance period (Burke, 1985 p. 72). The first lawyers began their craft using the new translated knowledge as their guide. Even the food utencils we use today come from the Cordova kitchen! (Burke, 1985 p. 44) All of these examples show just some of the ways Europe transformed.


Etc...

(P.s : btw spain never existed at the time of al andalus be careful with your anachronisms)

[Tietar]

Pure propaganda ...all serious people who have study this era know very well that al-andalus was way more civilized than any other parts of iberia ( it's not a coincidence if the majority of the most visited monuments were built by the moors) and wtf are you even talking about you think spaniards in america never enslaved amerindians or black africans to work on their fields ?? ( also posting paintings from the XIXth century won't help you ) :picard1:


Although many injustices were committed in those days, Spain was much more advanced than the rest of the world. It is the first time in the history of mankind that the conquerors are punished and the conquered defended, it is the first time laws are made to defend them



Codified universal human rights

Isabel promoted women’s education. She studied assiduously for her own education and ensured a good education was available to her daughters and to other women in Spain and the Americas. She appointed women as professors in universities. Beatrice Gallando (b.1475) studied Latin classics in Salamanca. Isabel named her Professor of Latin for the Royal Court. Isabel was certain of a woman’s capability and right to rule. Before her death she gave firm instructions that if she should die before her husband, her daughter “the Princess has to come to take possession and governance of these kingdoms as proprietary señora, that they then will be hers, and that without her the Prince has no part, nor will he be received in any manner.”

The Catholic Kings opposed slavery. After the Canary Islands had been discovered Isabel and Ferdinand gave orders that the Guanches, the inhabitants, should be treated like subjects of Castile. This was the practice the Queen would apply, by means of her Will and Codicil, to the many millions of Indians of Spanish America.

Queen Isabel sent instructions to Ovando, the Governor of Hispanola, saying: “because we have been informed that some Christians of the islands, especially those of Hispaniola, have taken Indian’s women, daughters and things against their will, as soon as you arrive, you will give the order to return all that was unjustly taken, and you will enforce this on the pain of strict punishment, so that in the future, no one will dare to do such a thing.”

The first stone building the Spaniards constructed in the Americas was not a fortress, a church or a residence but a hospital which on the instructions of Queen Isabel of 29th March 1503 was to be “where the poor will be received and cured, Christians as well as Indians.” She decreed that “each town should be obliged to have a church, chaplain and hospital: the children should be educated in Christian faith: together with the church a house should be built to where the children can go twice a day, and where the chaplain not only teaches them to read and write, but also to make the sign of the cross and learn the Our Father, Hail Mary, the Creed and the Salve.”

On her deathbed Isabel’s dictated her Last Will and Codicil, saying: “…no consent nor place is given for the mistreatment of the Indian natives and inhabitants of said Indies and Mainland, already gotten and still to gain, to their persons or their possessions, but it is so ordered that they be well and justly treated and if they receive any grievance that it be remedied, and that it be provided for…” Following this last will, in which she commanded, asked and implored pity for her new subjects, Isabel’s successors created the ‘Leyes de Indias’ (Laws of the Indies) an admirable corpus of legislation comprising some 6,000 laws which strongly underlined the dignity, rights and defence of American Indians.

http://www.queenisabel.org/Greatest/Codified.html

[Nassbean]

Although many injustices were committed in those days, Spain was much more advanced than the rest of the world. It is the first time in the history of mankind that the conquerors are punished and the conquered defended, it is the first time laws are made to defend them



Codified universal human rights

Isabel promoted women’s education. She studied assiduously for her own education and ensured a good education was available to her daughters and to other women in Spain and the Americas. She appointed women as professors in universities. Beatrice Gallando (b.1475) studied Latin classics in Salamanca. Isabel named her Professor of Latin for the Royal Court. Isabel was certain of a woman’s capability and right to rule. Before her death she gave firm instructions that if she should die before her husband, her daughter “the Princess has to come to take possession and governance of these kingdoms as proprietary señora, that they then will be hers, and that without her the Prince has no part, nor will he be received in any manner.”

The Catholic Kings opposed slavery. After the Canary Islands had been discovered Isabel and Ferdinand gave orders that the Guanches, the inhabitants, should be treated like subjects of Castile. This was the practice the Queen would apply, by means of her Will and Codicil, to the many millions of Indians of Spanish America.

Queen Isabel sent instructions to Ovando, the Governor of Hispanola, saying: “because we have been informed that some Christians of the islands, especially those of Hispaniola, have taken Indian’s women, daughters and things against their will, as soon as you arrive, you will give the order to return all that was unjustly taken, and you will enforce this on the pain of strict punishment, so that in the future, no one will dare to do such a thing.”

The first stone building the Spaniards constructed in the Americas was not a fortress, a church or a residence but a hospital which on the instructions of Queen Isabel of 29th March 1503 was to be “where the poor will be received and cured, Christians as well as Indians.” She decreed that “each town should be obliged to have a church, chaplain and hospital: the children should be educated in Christian faith: together with the church a house should be built to where the children can go twice a day, and where the chaplain not only teaches them to read and write, but also to make the sign of the cross and learn the Our Father, Hail Mary, the Creed and the Salve.”

On her deathbed Isabel’s dictated her Last Will and Codicil, saying: “…no consent nor place is given for the mistreatment of the Indian natives and inhabitants of said Indies and Mainland, already gotten and still to gain, to their persons or their possessions, but it is so ordered that they be well and justly treated and if they receive any grievance that it be remedied, and that it be provided for…” Following this last will, in which she commanded, asked and implored pity for her new subjects, Isabel’s successors created the ‘Leyes de Indias’ (Laws of the Indies) an admirable corpus of legislation comprising some 6,000 laws which strongly underlined the dignity, rights and defence of American Indians.

http://www.queenisabel.org/Greatest/Codified.html



This is after al andalus ...

[CostaRicaBall]

Nowadays they are far civilized than when them were under moorish control BUT their first years without moors they didn't. I would say that they surpass their moorish version until industrial revolution.

[Tietar]

This is after al andalus ...

¿and this?


Siete Partidas 1251-1265

Generally considered the most important law code of the Middle Ages (and largest legislative compilation since Roman times). In 1251 Alfonso commissioned a group of jurists to effect the legislative reform envisioned by his father, Fernando III. The work was intended to ultimately replace the bastardized Visigothic Forum Judicum (the Fuero Juzgo, in Asturias & Leon) as well as the diverse, conflicting, and confusing legislative maze of local Fueros and unwritten customs (in Castile). Based on customary law, Roman and canon law, Alfonso's Fuero Real, and ideas of Aristotle, Seneca and Isidore of Seville, this legislative synthesis (enriched with doctrinal commentary and exposition of philosophical principles) is intended to guide jurists and future monarchs and promote social harmony by providing subjects with norms and legal dispositions to regulate human activity in all forms of social intercourse.

http://legalhistorysources.com/KrakowLectures/Law508/SietePartidasHistory.htm


THE LAWS OF LAS SIETE PARTIDAS, WHICH ARE STILL IN FORCE IN THE STATE OF LOUISIANA.

https://www.lesserbooks.com/pages/books/32552/l-moreau-lislet-henry-carleton/the-laws-of-las-siete-partidas-which-are-still-in-force-in-the-state-of-louisiana

[Nassbean]

¿and this?


Siete Partidas 1251-1265

Generally considered the most important law code of the Middle Ages (and largest legislative compilation since Roman times). In 1251 Alfonso commissioned a group of jurists to effect the legislative reform envisioned by his father, Fernando III. The work was intended to ultimately replace the bastardized Visigothic Forum Judicum (the Fuero Juzgo, in Asturias & Leon) as well as the diverse, conflicting, and confusing legislative maze of local Fueros and unwritten customs (in Castile). Based on customary law, Roman and canon law, Alfonso's Fuero Real, and ideas of Aristotle, Seneca and Isidore of Seville, this legislative synthesis (enriched with doctrinal commentary and exposition of philosophical principles) is intended to guide jurists and future monarchs and promote social harmony by providing subjects with norms and legal dispositions to regulate human activity in all forms of social intercourse.

http://legalhistorysources.com/KrakowLectures/Law508/SietePartidasHistory.htm


THE LAWS OF LAS SIETE PARTIDAS, WHICH ARE STILL IN FORCE IN THE STATE OF LOUISIANA.

https://www.lesserbooks.com/pages/books/32552/l-moreau-lislet-henry-carleton/the-laws-of-las-siete-partidas-which-are-still-in-force-in-the-state-of-louisiana

nothing really surprising compared to what i posted just reread what I posted and then come back to me.

[MinervaItalica]

You idealice so much Italy.

It´s a more mediocre country than Spain in every sense.

:lol00002:

[Ruggery]

WHAT

[Ruggery]

The per capita income by purchasing parity (thus, having into account the cost of living in each country) between Canada and Spain is low.

We must take into account that Canada is a huge territory with massive productions of oil, wood, minerals, agricultural fertile lands, fishing, and Spain is a dry country, with poor agricultural lands and far from the european economic center. Also Spain has a very big population of gypsies than do not produce nothing, but they have to be taken into accounti on these statistics, so the difference of income between Canada and Spain (real spaniards) is even lower.
Certainly, Canada, despite being an almost frozen country and being 8 of the 12 months in winter, is a much larger country with many more resources than Spain, especially in oil and wood, to which we must add that it is literally a neighbor of USA and share the same culture.

The reason why Canada is safer than Spain is because Spain has much more marginal immigration.
Compare Asian and European immigration that Canada receives with Morish and African immigration that Spain receives.

So the evolution is really good, in a few decades Spain will be richer than Canada, despite its huge resources, and now it´s becoming a shithole way the massive importation of thirdworlders.

I'm curious to know how that will happen.

[Tietar]

nothing really surprising compared to what i posted just reread what I posted and then come back to me.

They had many books, but they did not profit, in 8 centuries important contributions are scarce.

In fact, the Cordoba library was burned in 976 because it went against the precepts of Islam.

AD 976 – Library of al-Hakam II : Córdoba, Al-Andalus – All books consisting of “ancient science” were destroyed by the order of Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir & religious scholars.

https://wakefromthedream.wordpress.com/libraries-destroyed/

nobody can deny that there were many great arab people who brought the forgotten knowledge and advances of the east in the first centuries, but as a society Al-Andalus was quite decadent

when Christians take Toledo, a school of translators is created and disseminate knowledge throughout Europe, they were the precursors of the renaissance, this is the difference

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_School_of_Translators

[Nassbean]

They had many books, but they did not profit, in 8 centuries important contributions are scarce.

In fact, the Cordoba library was burned in 976 because it went against the precepts of Islam.

AD 976 – Library of al-Hakam II : Córdoba, Al-Andalus – All books consisting of “ancient science” were destroyed by the order of Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir & religious scholars.

https://wakefromthedream.wordpress.com/libraries-destroyed/

nobody can deny that there were many great arab people who brought the forgotten knowledge and advances of the east in the first centuries, but as a society Al-Andalus was quite decadent

when Christians take Toledo, a school of translators is created and disseminate knowledge throughout Europe, they were the precursors of the renaissance, this is the difference

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_School_of_Translators

your examples are ridiculous ..in your own source i found this :


1499 – Madrassah Library : Granada, Crown of Castile – Books burned by troops ordered by Cardinal Cisneros.

Also in your second source that's what they say :
The Toledo School of Translators (Spanish: Escuela de Traductores de Toledo) is the group of scholars who worked together in the city of Toledo during the 12th and 13th centuries, to translate many of the philosophical and scientific works from Classical Arabic.

They simply translated what the moors had ( they were just intermediates because at that time the moors didn't care about spreading their knowledge to the rest of europe) ....your arguments are so weak stop embarassing yourself again.