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View Full Version : Who has more Ancient Greek ancestry -- modern mainland Greeks, or eastern Sicilians and Calabrese?



Sikeliot
07-17-2013, 04:48 AM
Question speaks for itself.

Genetically, mainland Greeks are more "Balkan" than are Sicilians/Calabrese, Cypriots, and Anatolian Greeks who all cluster closer to one another (although Cypriots are a bit more Levantine than the rest). And have more of an Eastern European influence in their genes, even though it's not the most significant to their genes.

riverman
07-17-2013, 05:03 AM
Calabrese, obviously.

Sikeliot
07-17-2013, 05:05 AM
Btw I said eastern Sicilians rather than the whole island since western Sicilians have a lot of Semitic and Norman ancestry and a mixture more akin to Ashkenazis.

Raine
07-17-2013, 08:13 AM
Question speaks for itself.

Genetically, mainland Greeks are more "Balkan" than are Sicilians/Calabrese, Cypriots, and Anatolian Greeks who all cluster closer to one another (although Cypriots are a bit more Levantine than the rest). And have more of an Eastern European influence in their genes, even though it's not the most significant to their genes.

The Greek contribution to the Sicilian and Calabrese genome is about 37%.

I could argue that Illyrians, Thracians and other Balkan races were kin races to Ancient Greeks, and most Balkanites have some of this ancestry. So you can say we mixed with kin races, and no population on earth is unmixed. Italians too have mixed with Balkanites. Still our mixing with them is negligible.

Sikeliot
07-17-2013, 08:17 AM
The Greek contribution to the Sicilian and Calabrese genome is about 37%.


That's island-wide for Sicily. If you consider that Trapani and Enna were the two areas most sampled, Trapani probably has very little Greek and Enna probably a lot. So eastern Sicily would be pushing 75%+ for Greek, while far western parts of the island are probably close to 10% or so.

Raine
07-17-2013, 08:23 AM
That's island-wide for Sicily. If you consider that Trapani and Enna were the two areas most sampled, Trapani probably has very little Greek and Enna probably a lot. So eastern Sicily would be pushing 75%+ for Greek, while far western parts of the island are probably close to 10% or so.

Even Apuglia and Central Italy has some Ancient Greek, we may have some Roman too, do you think people in Sicily have not changed at all in 2500 years?

Sikeliot
07-17-2013, 08:26 AM
Even Apuglia and Central Italy has some Ancient Greek, we may have some Roman too, do you think people in Sicily have not changed at all in 2500 years?

Eastern Sicilians I think have changed very little since the Greeks settled. Those in the west have changed more due to more migration to there -- but they cluster closest to Jews and have both a strong Levantine and Norman input. Romans were not large settlers.

Subsequent groups like the Spanish and French, had little genetic impact if any.

Constantine13
07-17-2013, 08:38 AM
I doubt Calabrese/E. Sicilians are very Greek in an ancient-racial sense. These were just enclaves, and enclaves don't last very long.

In Greece, most regions are surrounded by and mix with others of their own kind.

Greek enclaves in Italy are surrounded by other peoples who diffuse in through the years. Look at Aframs in the United States. They started out totally African but gradually became more like the surrounding majority (whites) in a relatively short time. What is it, like ~40% white now on average?

Keeping this in mind, "Greek" Italians can't be any more descended from Greek colonists than Pontians or Cypriotes are.

Sikeliot
07-17-2013, 08:40 AM
Keeping this in mind, "Greek" Italians can't be any more descended from Greek colonists than Pontians or Cypriotes are.

Then why are they genetically closer to Greeks proper than Pontians and Cypriots are? Although as I demonstrated with recent Dodecad data, they are a lot less Northern European than Greeks and slightly more SW Asian.

Greeks in Sicily and Calabria would have mixed mostly with Phoenicians/Carthaginians, pre-Greek Neolithic groups like Elymians, and Italics. Although as I demonstrated, the Greeks were very adverse to the Italic groups and didn't mix with them and forced them out of their towns and cities.. practically genocided them.

Constantine13
07-17-2013, 08:44 AM
Then why are they genetically closer to Greeks proper than Pontians and Cypriots are? Although as I demonstrated with recent Dodecad data, they are a lot less Northern European than Greeks and slightly more SW Asian.

Greeks in Sicily and Calabria would have mixed mostly with Phoenicians/Carthaginians, pre-Greek Neolithic groups like Elymians, and Italics.


I'm not an expert, but I'd imagine that the Sicilian natives were more similar racially to the Greek colonists than the natives of Pontus/Cyprus were.

Sikeliot
07-17-2013, 08:46 AM
I'm not an expert, but I'd imagine that the Sicilian natives were more similar racially to the Greek colonists than the natives of Pontus/Cyprus were.

They would have been primarily Neolithic West Asian in character with various Italic, Anatolian, etc. inputs which is why some of them spoke Anatolian languages and others spoke Italic languages. And then there were Phoenicians who showed up later who likely wouldn't have been too different genetically than the people they encountered there.

Ianus
07-17-2013, 09:54 AM
Why are you so obsessed with Sicilian and their Greek look?

Ali Pasha
07-17-2013, 09:56 AM
Mainland Greeks are mixed with Albanians.

Raine
07-17-2013, 10:29 AM
Mainland Greeks are mixed with Albanians.

They are mixed with Greek Epirotes and you are mixed with them too.

The Greeks of Albania are ethnic Greeks who live in or originate from areas within modern Albania. They are mostly concentrated in the south of the country, in the areas of the northern part of the historical region of Epirus, in parts of Vlorė County,[4] Gjirokastėr, Korēė[5] and Berat County.[6] The area is also known as Northern Epirus. Consequently, the Greeks hailing specifically from South Albania/Northern Epirus are widely known as Northern Epirotes (Greek: Βορειοηπειρώτες Vorioipirotes, Albanian: Vorioepirot). The Greeks who live in the 'minority zones' of Albania are officially recognized by the Albanian government as the Greek minority in Albania (Greek: Ελληνική Μειονότητα στην Αλβανία, Elliniki Mionotita stin Alvania, Albanian: Minoriteti Grek nė Shqipėri).[7][8]
In 1913, after the end of five centuries of Ottoman rule, the area was included under the sovereignty of the newly founded Albanian state. The following year, Greeks revolted and declared their independence, and with the following Protocol of Corfu the area was recognized as an autonomous region under nominal Albanian sovereignty, however, this was never implemented.
In modern times, the Greek population has suffered from the prohibition of the Greek language if spoken outside the recognized so-called 'minority zones' (which have remained after the communist era) and even limitations on the official use of its language within those zones.[9] According to Greek minority leaders, the existence of Greek communities outside the 'minority zones' is even outright denied.[10] Many formerly Greek place-names have been officially changed to Albanian ones.[11] Greeks from the 'minority zones' were also frequently forcibly moved to other parts of the country since they were seen as possible sources of dissent and ethnic tension. During communist rule many Greek members of Albanian political parties were forced to cut off their ties with the Orthodox Church.[9] In more recent times, the numbers of the minority have dwindled.
However, the official Albanian definition about minorities did not recognize as members of a minority ethnic Greeks who live in mixed villages and towns inhabited by both Greek and Albanian speaking populations, even in areas where ethnic Greeks form a majority (e.g. Himara).[9][18] Consequently, the Greek communities in Himarė, Korce, Vlorė and Berat did not have access to any minority rights.[19][20]
At the end of the second World War approximately 35,000 Northern Epirotes found refuge in Greece.
Since the collapse of the communist regime in Albania in 1990, an estimated 200,000 ethnic Greeks from Albania are believed to live and work (some of them on a seasonal basis) in Greece as immigrants.[24] They are considered 'omogeneis' (co-ethnics) by the Greek Ministry of the Interior and have received special residency permits available only to members of the Greek minority from Albania.[25]

MfA_
07-17-2013, 11:08 AM
Why are you so obsessed with Sicilian and their Greek look?

Welcome to The Apricity :lol:

Raine
07-17-2013, 11:12 AM
Why are you so obsessed with Sicilian and their Greek look?

You sound like me lol

Raine
07-17-2013, 11:13 AM
Western Turks are the troo Ancient Greeks

Mikel83
07-17-2013, 11:21 AM
Notice that after greeks, Sicily got arabs, normans, spanisc and french dominions. So ancient greek heritage is too far.
Greece is mixed with turkey and balkan people.

Mikel83
07-17-2013, 11:22 AM
If you study Homerus, you will learn that ancient greeks were often blond !

Petros Houhoulis
07-17-2013, 11:46 AM
If you study Homerus, you will learn that ancient greeks were often blond !

I have a red beard, but brown hair. Can I be a Greek, or you think it's too much?

Apart from the jokes, the original Greeks would have been R1b and maybe R1a and I invaders from the north who subdued J2 and E1b1b people. Ever since the majority of the Greek people are a combination of assimilated J2 and E1b1b people, who were not originally Greeks of course.

Somewhere in between a few Albanians farted... And they think they are somewhat relevant to the Greek culture because of it...

Scholarios Chiotis
07-17-2013, 11:59 AM
Since both my parents are Greeks, I have more "Greek ancestry" than any Italian. As far as the other stuff, I have no idea. I used to think I knew, but if you have been around the message boards long enough you realize that the genetic opinion trends change quite a lot. If I was like 19 again and we had 23andme back then I would probably buy in as well though.

ABest
07-17-2013, 12:25 PM
Well, one needs to define what "Greek" means first.

Before the Greek language formed, there were pre-Greek people living in Greece. Those people interacted with Proto-Indo-Europeans entering the Balkans (whether PIEs entered from Turkey or the North is another story). The Pre-Greek language(s) blended with the PIE language to form Greek.

Now, the majority of Greek people have always been E1b1b1 and J2 people (these haplogroups represent the native pre-Greek element) with an R1b and an R1a element which represents PIEs or other population movements that occurred throughout Europe (and parts of Asia).

Also, it is important to remember that E1b1b1 peaks in Albania and not in Greece, while J2 is found at high frequencies throughout the Balkans. R1b and R1a is also found at noticeable levels throughout the Balkans, including the Greek world. This pattern obviously shows that all Balkanites are very similar genetically.

In other words, mainland Greeks have not exactly distanced themselves genetically from ancient Greeks by mixing with other Balkan populations. The only valid argument would be that they distanced themselves genetically from ancient Greeks by mixing with invading Slavs, but then again, the Slavs did not really have a significant genetic impact anywhere in the Balkans.

So, saying that Southern Italians/Sicilians are significantly more Greek than mainland Greeks is not exactly an accurate statement.

Mikel83
07-17-2013, 12:29 PM
so do you mean that modern greeks got few mix with turkey?

and have you ever hearth about dori population invasion, so greek of Mykenes is a thing , greek of Socrates is totally other thing.
It makes not sense this geenralization.

Raine
07-17-2013, 12:34 PM
Also, it is important to remember that E1b1b1 peaks in Albania and not in Greece, while J2 is found at high frequencies throughout the Balkans. R1b and R1a is also found at noticeable levels throughout the Balkans, including the Greek world. This pattern obviously shows that all Balkanites are very similar genetically.

On the other hand E-V13 is more diverse in Greeks than in Albanians. It is also very frequent and old in Peloponnese whereas Albanian E-V13 seems much younger..

Raine
07-17-2013, 12:37 PM
so do you mean that modern greeks got few mix with turkey?

and have you ever hearth about dori population invasion, so greek of Mykenes is a thing , greek of Socrates is totally other thing.
It makes not sense this geenralization.

Turks mixed with Northern Italians

ABest
07-17-2013, 12:37 PM
On the other hand E-V13 is more diverse in Greeks than in Albanians. It is also very frequent and old in Peloponnese whereas Albanian E-V13 seems much younger..

Yes, I've read about that. Could that mean that E-V13 mutated in Albania?

Mikel83
07-17-2013, 12:39 PM
So many stupid things together!!

What about Northern Greece? They got bulgarian and turkish influences, in Thessaloniki also many jews arrived from Spain....and families became mixed !!

Let“study!!

Raine
07-17-2013, 12:42 PM
Yes, I've read about that. Could that mean that E-V13 mutated in Albania?

Could be..I basically have no idea :biggrin:

Raine
07-17-2013, 12:43 PM
So many stupid things together!!

What about Northern Greece? They got bulgarian and turkish influences, in Thessaloniki also many jews arrived from Spain....and families became mixed !!

Let“study!!

Those families emigrated to Northern Italy and mixed with you

Mikel83
07-17-2013, 12:49 PM
ahahha you are so stupidly racist and ignorant about Greece !!

you think that Akilles looked like current greeks, you are so absurd !

tEhSaint
07-17-2013, 12:50 PM
I have a red beard, but brown hair. Can I be a Greek, or you think it's too much?


Means nothing, really.



Apart from the jokes, the original Greeks would have been R1b and maybe R1a and I invaders from the north who subdued J2 and E1b1b people. Ever since the majority of the Greek people are a combination of assimilated J2 and E1b1b people, who were not originally Greeks of course.


This is probably a highly flawed assumption. If you study the ancient civilizations movements from middle east where J1* , J2* and possibly E1b1* (NA) peaked at the time you will notice, that their works, arts, buildings, language influences, etc. , have a continuity from Middle East and all this civilization greatness ends around Italy where the aforementioned Y-dna lines fades.

On the other hand, lets say that indeed you assumption is correct. That means that Northern invaders brought civilization to South Europe and middle East. Which it basically a nonsense since all Northern / Central Europe got minimal to non existent traces of ancient civilizations and totally unrelated to S. Europe / Middle East.

Scholarios Chiotis
07-17-2013, 12:51 PM
So many stupid things together!!

What about Northern Greece? They got bulgarian and turkish influences, in Thessaloniki also many jews arrived from Spain....and families became mixed !!

Let“study!!

Dear Mike,


I appreciate your interest in the historical population of Greece. However, it is more complicated than "mixed families". Personally, I believe that population genetics (as far as it is "studied" in these forums) is largely pseudoscience (ie bullshit). The Ottoman millet system largely limited mixing between Muslims and Christians. Though it is true that Balkan Christians did mix to an extent. However, the differences between these Balkan Christian populations and their changes over time are largely exaggerated.

Scholarios Chiotis
07-17-2013, 12:54 PM
ahahha you are so stupidly racist and ignorant about Greece !!

you think that Akilles looked like current greeks, you are so absurd !

https://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/images/pottery/painters/keypieces/tiverios/28-p175-medium.jpg

Raine
07-17-2013, 12:54 PM
ahahha you are so stupidly racist and ignorant about Greece !!

you think that Akilles looked like current greeks, you are so absurd !

Behave or I'll call Hellenas :rolleyes:

Mikel83
07-17-2013, 12:55 PM
ok, but noboy can negate that ancient greeks were another race: they are often blond, do you know it? It is written in Homeros texts and ancient greek literature also. Isnt it?

ABest
07-17-2013, 01:02 PM
ok, but noboy can negate that ancient greeks were another race: they are often blond, do you know it? It is written in Homeros texts and ancient greek literature also. Isnt it?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SwbkRI5Xi5k/UF9-DWmyhxI/AAAAAAAADLY/zfvCTUByNHg/s1600/cat-snow.gif

Ianus
07-17-2013, 01:05 PM
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh167/John_Azare/facepalm.jpg

Petros Houhoulis
07-17-2013, 01:08 PM
so do you mean that modern greeks got few mix with turkey?

and have you ever hearth about dori population invasion, so greek of Mykenes is a thing , greek of Socrates is totally other thing.
It makes not sense this geenralization.

Those Dorians were the real Greeks. Quite a few folks before them were also Greeks, but it is noticeable that the terms "Hellene" and "Greek" become predominant AFTER the Dorian invasion.

Scholarios Chiotis
07-17-2013, 01:12 PM
Means nothing, really.



This is probably a highly flawed assumption. If you study the ancient civilizations movements from middle east where J1* , J2* and possibly E1b1* (NA) peaked at the time you will notice, that their works, arts, buildings, language influences, etc. , have a continuity from Middle East and all this civilization greatness ends around Italy where the aforementioned Y-dna lines fades.

On the other hand, lets say that indeed you assumption is correct. That means that Northern invaders brought civilization to South Europe and middle East. Which it basically a nonsense since all Northern / Central Europe got minimal to non existent traces of ancient civilizations and totally unrelated to S. Europe / Middle East.

I do not believe that this theory entails civilizing by Northerners (though this was implied by some of the coiners of the theory who wanted to link cultures of Ancient World to the icy North). Basically, Proto-Greeks simply gave their language and some aspects of their religion to that J2/E1b/Levantine/Mediterranean whatever population. But otherwise, the PIE Greeks were assimilated by the older superior culture of the Pre-Greeks. (Commonly referred here as Pelasgians)

Petros Houhoulis
07-17-2013, 01:13 PM
So many stupid things together!!

What about Northern Greece? They got bulgarian and turkish influences, in Thessaloniki also many jews arrived from Spain....and families became mixed !!

Let“study!!

The Turks gave very little genetic input in the Balkans. Half the real Turks in Turkmenistan are slanty-eyed like the Chinese. There are barely any slanty-eyed folks in Greece.

The Bulgarians are also a population of Bulgars diluted into a huge pool of Slavs, many of whom had intermixed with Greek colonists in the Balkans long before they arrived in Greece proper.

Thessaloniki is the true exception, or at least it was until the NAZIs wiped out the vast majority of the Jews there...

To make a long story short, yes there were quite a lot of admixtures, but they had very little impact overall. Why? Because the only cases where a population really replaces the previous one (Until the modern era at least) is when the invaders have better agriculture than the older populations. This is how the Anglosaxons and other colonists conquered much of the known world... But the Greeks' knowledge of agriculture was always better than those who tried to take over.

Raine
07-17-2013, 01:15 PM
ok, but noboy can negate that ancient greeks were another race: they are often blond, do you know it? It is written in Homeros texts and ancient greek literature also. Isnt it?

they dyed their hair

Petros Houhoulis
07-17-2013, 01:16 PM
ok, but noboy can negate that ancient greeks were another race: they are often blond, do you know it? It is written in Homeros texts and ancient greek literature also. Isnt it?

Yes, they were another race, but they did never truly replace the Pelasgian populations of Greece. They just imposed their language upon them!

Raine
07-17-2013, 01:18 PM
Yes, they were another race, but they did never truly replace the Pelasgian populations of Greece. They just imposed their language upon them!

Not really, they totally replaced them

Petros Houhoulis
07-17-2013, 01:20 PM
Means nothing, really.



This is probably a highly flawed assumption. If you study the ancient civilizations movements from middle east where J1* , J2* and possibly E1b1* (NA) peaked at the time you will notice, that their works, arts, buildings, language influences, etc. , have a continuity from Middle East and all this civilization greatness ends around Italy where the aforementioned Y-dna lines fades.

On the other hand, lets say that indeed you assumption is correct. That means that Northern invaders brought civilization to South Europe and middle East. Which it basically a nonsense since all Northern / Central Europe got minimal to non existent traces of ancient civilizations and totally unrelated to S. Europe / Middle East.

It isn't, because I never said that the Greeks brought civilization with them. In fact, it is the quite opposite: They brought disaster and the early dark ages. Civilization existed in Greece before the Greeks!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages


The Greek Dark Age or Ages and Geometric or Homeric Age (ca. 1200 BC–750 BC) are terms which have regularly been used to refer to the period of Greek history from the presumed Dorian invasion and end of the Mycenaean palatial civilization around 1200 BC, to the first signs of the Greek poleis in the 9th century BC. These terms are gradually going out of use, since the former lack of archaeological evidence in a period that was mute in its lack of inscriptions (thus "dark") has been shown to be an accident of discovery rather than a fact of history.[1]
The archaeological evidence shows a widespread collapse of Bronze Age civilization in the eastern Mediterranean world at the outset of the period, as the great palaces and cities of the Mycenaeans were destroyed or abandoned. Around this time, the Hittite civilization suffered serious disruption and cities from Troy to Gaza were destroyed. Following the collapse, fewer and smaller settlements suggest famine and depopulation. In Greece the Linear B writing of the Greek language used by Mycenaean bureaucrats ceased. The decoration on Greek pottery after ca 1100 BC lacks the figurative decoration of Mycenaean ware and is restricted to simpler, generally geometric styles (1000–700 BC). It was previously thought that all contact was lost between mainland Hellenes and foreign powers during this period, yielding little cultural progress or growth; however, artifacts from excavations at Lefkandi on the Lelantine Plain in Euboea show that significant cultural and trade links with the east, particularly the Levant coast, developed from c 900 BC onwards, and evidence has emerged of the new presence of Hellenes in sub-Mycenaean Cyprus and on the Syrian coast at Al Mina.

Petros Houhoulis
07-17-2013, 01:22 PM
Not really, they totally replaced them

Nope. The E1b1b and the J2 populations are still prevalent in Greece, and they have no relation with any Indo-European people whatsoever (excluding Greek colonists in south Italy and elsewhere)

All of the other known E1b1b and J2 populations in the world speak some form of Afro-Asiatic language...

Raine
07-17-2013, 01:24 PM
It isn't, because I never said that the Greeks brought civilization with them. In fact, it is the quite opposite: They brought disaster and the early dark ages. Civilization existed in Greece before the Greeks!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages

So now the Mycanean civilization is not Greek? :picard1:

ABest
07-17-2013, 01:36 PM
I do not believe that this theory entails civilizing by Northerners (though this was implied by some of the coiners of the theory who wanted to link cultures of Ancient World to the icy North). Basically, Proto-Greeks simply gave their language and some aspects of their religion to that J2/E1b/Levantine/Mediterranean whatever population. But otherwise, the PIE Greeks were assimilated by the older superior culture of the Pre-Greeks. (Commonly referred here as Pelasgians)

Agreed. R1b/R1a PIEs mainly had a linguistic impact on the populations that they encountered. Also, their look is very ambiguous, as is their origin. The two main competing theories are that they either originated from the Pontic Steppe or from Anatolia.

Some people like to represent PIEs as pale, blond, blue-eyed ubermensch that civilized the world, but that is far from the truth.

One needs to simply look at the physical appearance of the Finns and the Estonians, the blondest people on earth, who also speak non-Indo-European Uralic languages.

Anyway, whatever the look and origin of the PIEs, their linguistic impact was pretty clear in Greece. Their language blended with the Pre-Greek language(s) to form Greek. That is manifested by the numerous words in Greek that do not have an Indo-European origin.

Raine
07-17-2013, 01:44 PM
Anyway, whatever the look and origin of the PIEs, their linguistic impact was pretty clear in Greece. Their language blended with the Pre-Greek language(s) to form Greek. That is manifested by the numerous words in Greek that do not have an Indo-European origin.

And yet, Indo-Hellenic like Indo-Germanic and the Lithuanian language of the Baltic subfamily of the IE languages, contains the most PIE (Proto Indo-European words) than any other IE language. According to a relevant study, 65% of the Indo-Germanic words are of PIE origin, 63% of the Indo-Hellenic words are of PIE origin, and 60% of the Lithuanian language are of PIE origin.

ABest
07-17-2013, 01:49 PM
And yet, Indo-Hellenic like Indo-Germanic and the Lithuanian language of the Baltic subfamily of the IE languages, contains the most PIE (Proto Indo-European words) than any other IE language. According to a relevant study, 65% of the Indo-Germanic words are of PIE origin, 63% of the Indo-Hellenic words are of PIE origin, and 60% of the Lithuanian language are of PIE origin.

Thanks for the info. Can you actually link me to that study?

What about Latin languages? Don't they have over 60% Indo-European-derived words as well?

Also, what about Iranian and Indo-Aryan languages?

riverman
07-17-2013, 01:54 PM
ahahha you are so stupidly racist and ignorant about Greece !!

you think that Akilles looked like current greeks, you are so absurd !


Hahahahahahahahaha yes Greeks can be amusing, I generally agree with Raine on most issues though.

tEhSaint
07-17-2013, 02:38 PM
It isn't, because I never said that the Greeks brought civilization with them. In fact, it is the quite opposite: They brought disaster and the early dark ages. Civilization existed in Greece before the Greeks!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages

Neither did I.

Greek dark age? Unrelated, plus there is not enough information regarding this. My point is that civilization came from Middle East (the people who lived there, J1* / J2* carriers) and basically spurt and advanced in Europe. You cant deny the ancient civilization paths. Also R1* / R2* groups are quite diverse, from gypo-Indians to Eastern/Western European mutations of the clade.

Petros Houhoulis
07-17-2013, 02:49 PM
So now the Mycanean civilization is not Greek? :picard1:

O.K. the Mycenaean civilization was Greek too - only that they didn't use the name yet. Nevertheless, there were other non-Greek civilizations before the Mycenaean. In Minoan Crete no less than 4 different languages were spoken at that time!

Petros Houhoulis
07-17-2013, 02:50 PM
Neither did I.

Greek dark age? Unrelated, plus there is not enough information regarding this. My point is that civilization came from Middle East (the people who lived there, J1* / J2* carriers) and basically spurt and advanced in Europe. You cant deny the ancient civilization paths. Also R1* / R2* groups are quite diverse, from gypo-Indians to Eastern/Western European mutations of the clade.

Civilization came from the Middle East, language came from the north. Case closed.

Sikeliot
07-17-2013, 05:27 PM
Why are you so obsessed with Sicilian and their Greek look?

This is about genetics not looks (this topic I mean). But your friends on Anthroscape try to deny the ancient Greek influences, so why not ask them why they deny that there is any and give ridiculous figures like "ancient Greek ancestry is less than 10%"? :rolleyes:

I am of Sicilian descent btw so I want to know what that is comprised of. I don't need your input or permission. Thanks!

Sikeliot
07-17-2013, 05:28 PM
Notice that after greeks, Sicily got arabs, normans, spanisc and french dominions.

Arab and Norman yes, especially in the west of the island -- you see more of both haplogroups like I1 and J1 there) but not the Spanish and French -- they were the island's least benevolent rulers and I'd bet people refused to mix with them. This is why I said "eastern Sicily" in the poll and excluded the west due to the higher Middle Eastern and Norman there.

Going by y-dna, Sicilian R1b is more linked to the Italian peninsula and Alps area, while most of the rest of the population is J2, E1b1b etc.

But I'll also note Calabria did not have any of those influences.

Prince Carlo
07-17-2013, 05:54 PM
Notice that after greeks, Sicily got arabs, normans, spanisc and french dominions. So ancient greek heritage is too far.
Greece is mixed with turkey and balkan people.

Calabrians were pretty much Greek until few centuries ago. No invader changed its genetic make up. The biggest Greek speaking minority of Italy is in Calabria.

Sikeliot
07-17-2013, 10:17 PM
Calabrians were pretty much Greek until few centuries ago. No invader changed its genetic make up. The biggest Greek speaking minority of Italy is in Calabria.

Same with eastern Sicily. Messina and Catania, at least, spoke Greek until about 1500 I believe.

Western Sicily though is a whole other matter -- I have seen some people from there on 23andme get 20%+ Middle Eastern (highest I've seen for any European, excluding Cypriots), and then some of alfieb's relatives get a lot of Northern European. So I don't deny high MENA and/or Norman ancestry there.

Loki
07-17-2013, 10:28 PM
Civilization came from the Middle East, language came from the north. Case closed.

It came from Egypt (E-M78 parent), via the Levant into modern day Greece.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mlwilson/E1b1b1Route.gif

What do the Ancient Egyptians and the Ancient Greeks have in common? Both came from the same E1b1b big daddy in upper Egypt, thousands of years ago.

Sikeliot
07-17-2013, 10:31 PM
But Greek E1b is different than the Levantine or the Egyptian E1b. Iberians have Berber E1b, and southern Italians have Greek E1b.
Sicilians have all three types in various amounts depending on region.

Loki
07-17-2013, 10:34 PM
But Greek E1b is different than the Levantine or the Egyptian E1b.

Of course, please re-read my post. They stem from the same E-M78 ... which later split up and formed new offshoots.

Sikeliot
07-17-2013, 10:38 PM
The map above also shows how Phoenicians spread across N. Africa into Sicily and whatnot so it makes sense that North Africa, Sicily, and Malta probably have the widest diversity of E1b subclades.

Petros Houhoulis
07-18-2013, 02:20 AM
Same with eastern Sicily. Messina and Catania, at least, spoke Greek until about 1500 I believe.

Western Sicily though is a whole other matter -- I have seen some people from there on 23andme get 20%+ Middle Eastern (highest I've seen for any European, excluding Cypriots), and then some of alfieb's relatives get a lot of Northern European. So I don't deny high MENA and/or Norman ancestry there.

Western Sicily was Carthaginian territory, not Greek.

Sikeliot
07-18-2013, 05:14 AM
Western Sicily was Carthaginian territory, not Greek.

I know. That is why they have both higher MENA and Nordic and less Greek.

Stormer99
07-18-2013, 05:28 AM
Modern Greeks. Their base is Greek with a few things added here and there. Eastern Sicilians and Calabrese are significantly Greek but it is not the base but one of the biggest components.

Scholarios Chiotis
07-18-2013, 05:30 AM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Il3C_PAhgz0/Swo1rvdFbAI/AAAAAAAABJ8/QN0o6uNFiqU/s640/akritas_Macedonian_Kingdom.jpg


In southern Greece, the traditions concerning the pre-Greek Pelasgians coincide to a remarkable degree with certain innovations in the pottery that had made their ap¬pearance slightly earlier in western Macedonia, central Macedonia, Chalkidike, eastern Macedonia and further to the east and north.[3] This suggests that Macedonia was in¬habited by Pelasgians at the end of the Neolithic period.[4] The Pelasgians were one of the pre-Greek Indo-European peoples,[5] as were the Dryopes,[6] a section of whom remained in the valley of the Erigon (Crna) and survived into the historical period, when they were known by the name Derriopes, or Deuriopes or Douriopes: Dry-, Derr-, Deur- and Dour- are all the evolved form or rendering of the same root, the original meaning of which was 'tree' and which later came to mean oak tree.[7]

The features of the 'Tumulus Culture' that appeared in southern Macedonia towards the end of the Neolithic period and somewhat later in the Chalkidike and eastern Macedonia, suggest the arrival of a number of Indo-European groups that cannot be identified.[8] Proto-Phrygians (Briges), Proto-Armenians?




The language and religion of the ancient Greeks contain features derived from a variety of different sources. They are predominantly Indo-European, but the non - Indo-European, or 'Mediterranean' features are by no means in¬significant. The Indo-European elements may in turn be divided into a main and a secondary group; the latter are connected with a variety of Indo-European peoples that had been absorbed by the dominant group, which had also absorbed the remnants of 'Mediterranean' peoples. The main ancestors of the ancient Greeks are usually also described as Greeks. This term, however, obscures the fact that the ancient Greeks also had other forebears, both Indo-European and 'Mediterranean'. In order to dis¬tinguish the historical Greeks from the main group of their prehistoric ancestors, the term Proto-Greeks has recently come to be applied to the latter.[9]

Study of the interrelations between the various Indo-European languages has shown that the Proto-Greek tongue had its closest and longest [I]contact with Proto-Aryan (the forerunner of Indian and Iranian languages); that these two languages took shape in the centre of the area occupied by the Indo-European peoples (from the Ukraine to east of the Caspian); and that they separated out after the dispersal of the Indo-European peoples sur¬rounding the Proto-Greeks and Proto-Aryans.[10] A variety of archaeological evidence has demonstrated that the fragmentation of the main mass of the Indo-Europeans was already completed by the beginning of the fourth phase of the 'Tumulus Culture' of the Eurasian steppes (c. 2500 B.C.). Some features of this culture make their ap¬pearance on the Greek mainland and on adjacent islands, under conditions that suggest they were brought by im¬migrants, at the beginning of Early Helladic III (c. 2100 B.C.), though the main immigration dates to the beginning of the Middle Helladic period (1900 B.C.).[11] From that time to the end of the Late Helladic period (c. 1125 B.C.) there is no trace of any migration to Greece.


Sakellariou, Peoples, 137-49,246-47,294-306.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ui1ZkrRHrKE/Ued8SBjHcKI/AAAAAAAAAgM/IyhcZDNXouQ/s576/horses%2520greece.jpg

The Horse and the Proto-Greeks. 込田 伸夫, Nobuo Komita, 1991, Kanagawa Institute of Technology

Furthermore, later migrations and invasions (like the one that destroyed the Mycenean civilization can be explained thus). Lastly, the eventual domination of the peninsula by the Macedonians also can be seen as a completion of the invasions, making this sequence of subsequent invasions and dominations by Northerners complete.

Prince Carlo
07-18-2013, 07:14 AM
Same with eastern Sicily. Messina and Catania, at least, spoke Greek until about 1500 I believe.

Western Sicily though is a whole other matter -- I have seen some people from there on 23andme get 20%+ Middle Eastern (highest I've seen for any European, excluding Cypriots), and then some of alfieb's relatives get a lot of Northern European. So I don't deny high MENA and/or Norman ancestry there.

Sicilians were latinized by force after the Norman conquest. Later French and Spanish invasions cancelled the remains of one of the biggest Orthodox Greek speaking community outside of Greece.

Sikeliot
07-18-2013, 07:17 AM
Sicilians were latinized by force after the Norman conquest. Later French and Spanish invasions cancelled the remains of one of the biggest Orthodox Greek speaking community outside of Greece.

Yes this is true. And some of the Latinization was done by bringing in people from other parts of southern Italy who were already Latinized, which would not change the genetics that much. I have yet to see proof that Sicilians have any substantial French or Spanish ancestry worth mentioning and frankly, most Sicilians barely think about France or Spain, ever. Usually Greek, Roman, Norman, and Carthaginian are the elements people actually value, at least on a sentimental value.

Kalimtari
03-27-2014, 11:30 AM
les Grecs ofc

Raine
04-01-2014, 03:13 PM
Yes, they were another race, but they did never truly replace the Pelasgian populations of Greece. They just imposed their language upon them!

There is a Pelasgian heritage in Greece. There are thousands of words in Greek that have neolithic origin and possibly nothing to do with any language group we know of today.

Lets start with some examples (few out of many):

Ναι = Yes
Oυκ/Όχι = No

The two everyday words that are completely unrelated to other IE languages. In fact, anything in the form of ne/nei/nai/no etc has a negative meaning in all IE languages, while in Greek it means Yes! As for όχι it is more close to a negative particle in some N. Caucasian language than IE

Now lets have a look on water...

IE Greek: ύδωρ/υδρό- ydor
Non IE Greek: νηρόν/νερό. nero

Actually νηρόν can refer to a fluid, something wet or even a current. Now, doesn't that remind you of the Nairi (alternative name of the Urartu) who lived around the Van lake? Doesn't remind you of the nireids?

As you can see, ύδωρ has obvious IE cognates and was originally *Fύδωρ (wudor). Νηρόν has no connection to any word in IE languages and is obviously pre-Greek.

kabeiros
04-01-2014, 06:42 PM
It came from Egypt (E-M78 parent), via the Levant into modern day Greece.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mlwilson/E1b1b1Route.gif

What do the Ancient Egyptians and the Ancient Greeks have in common? Both came from the same E1b1b big daddy in upper Egypt, thousands of years ago. Danaus (E-V13?) was Aegyptus (E-V12?) brother and Phoenix's(E-M123?) first cousin in Greek mythology. They are all descendants of great Poseidon (E1b1b?)