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Question speaks for itself.
Genetically, mainland Greeks are more "Balkan" than are Sicilians/Calabrese, Cypriots, and Anatolian Greeks who all cluster closer to one another (although Cypriots are a bit more Levantine than the rest). And have more of an Eastern European influence in their genes, even though it's not the most significant to their genes.
Calabrese, obviously.
Btw I said eastern Sicilians rather than the whole island since western Sicilians have a lot of Semitic and Norman ancestry and a mixture more akin to Ashkenazis.
The Greek contribution to the Sicilian and Calabrese genome is about 37%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sikeliot
I could argue that Illyrians, Thracians and other Balkan races were kin races to Ancient Greeks, and most Balkanites have some of this ancestry. So you can say we mixed with kin races, and no population on earth is unmixed. Italians too have mixed with Balkanites. Still our mixing with them is negligible.
That's island-wide for Sicily. If you consider that Trapani and Enna were the two areas most sampled, Trapani probably has very little Greek and Enna probably a lot. So eastern Sicily would be pushing 75%+ for Greek, while far western parts of the island are probably close to 10% or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raine
Even Apuglia and Central Italy has some Ancient Greek, we may have some Roman too, do you think people in Sicily have not changed at all in 2500 years?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sikeliot
Eastern Sicilians I think have changed very little since the Greeks settled. Those in the west have changed more due to more migration to there -- but they cluster closest to Jews and have both a strong Levantine and Norman input. Romans were not large settlers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raine
Subsequent groups like the Spanish and French, had little genetic impact if any.
I doubt Calabrese/E. Sicilians are very Greek in an ancient-racial sense. These were just enclaves, and enclaves don't last very long.
In Greece, most regions are surrounded by and mix with others of their own kind.
Greek enclaves in Italy are surrounded by other peoples who diffuse in through the years. Look at Aframs in the United States. They started out totally African but gradually became more like the surrounding majority (whites) in a relatively short time. What is it, like ~40% white now on average?
Keeping this in mind, "Greek" Italians can't be any more descended from Greek colonists than Pontians or Cypriotes are.
Then why are they genetically closer to Greeks proper than Pontians and Cypriots are? Although as I demonstrated with recent Dodecad data, they are a lot less Northern European than Greeks and slightly more SW Asian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Constantine13
Greeks in Sicily and Calabria would have mixed mostly with Phoenicians/Carthaginians, pre-Greek Neolithic groups like Elymians, and Italics. Although as I demonstrated, the Greeks were very adverse to the Italic groups and didn't mix with them and forced them out of their towns and cities.. practically genocided them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sikeliot
I'm not an expert, but I'd imagine that the Sicilian natives were more similar racially to the Greek colonists than the natives of Pontus/Cyprus were.
They would have been primarily Neolithic West Asian in character with various Italic, Anatolian, etc. inputs which is why some of them spoke Anatolian languages and others spoke Italic languages. And then there were Phoenicians who showed up later who likely wouldn't have been too different genetically than the people they encountered there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Constantine13
Why are you so obsessed with Sicilian and their Greek look?
Mainland Greeks are mixed with Albanians.
They are mixed with Greek Epirotes and you are mixed with them too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Pasha
The Greeks of Albania are ethnic Greeks who live in or originate from areas within modern Albania. They are mostly concentrated in the south of the country, in the areas of the northern part of the historical region of Epirus, in parts of Vlorė County,[4] Gjirokastėr, Korēė[5] and Berat County.[6] The area is also known as Northern Epirus. Consequently, the Greeks hailing specifically from South Albania/Northern Epirus are widely known as Northern Epirotes (Greek: Βορειοηπειρώτες Vorioipirotes, Albanian: Vorioepirot). The Greeks who live in the 'minority zones' of Albania are officially recognized by the Albanian government as the Greek minority in Albania (Greek: Ελληνική Μειονότητα στην Αλβανία, Elliniki Mionotita stin Alvania, Albanian: Minoriteti Grek nė Shqipėri).[7][8]
In 1913, after the end of five centuries of Ottoman rule, the area was included under the sovereignty of the newly founded Albanian state. The following year, Greeks revolted and declared their independence, and with the following Protocol of Corfu the area was recognized as an autonomous region under nominal Albanian sovereignty, however, this was never implemented.
In modern times, the Greek population has suffered from the prohibition of the Greek language if spoken outside the recognized so-called 'minority zones' (which have remained after the communist era) and even limitations on the official use of its language within those zones.[9] According to Greek minority leaders, the existence of Greek communities outside the 'minority zones' is even outright denied.[10] Many formerly Greek place-names have been officially changed to Albanian ones.[11] Greeks from the 'minority zones' were also frequently forcibly moved to other parts of the country since they were seen as possible sources of dissent and ethnic tension. During communist rule many Greek members of Albanian political parties were forced to cut off their ties with the Orthodox Church.[9] In more recent times, the numbers of the minority have dwindled.
However, the official Albanian definition about minorities did not recognize as members of a minority ethnic Greeks who live in mixed villages and towns inhabited by both Greek and Albanian speaking populations, even in areas where ethnic Greeks form a majority (e.g. Himara).[9][18] Consequently, the Greek communities in Himarė, Korce, Vlorė and Berat did not have access to any minority rights.[19][20]
At the end of the second World War approximately 35,000 Northern Epirotes found refuge in Greece.
Since the collapse of the communist regime in Albania in 1990, an estimated 200,000 ethnic Greeks from Albania are believed to live and work (some of them on a seasonal basis) in Greece as immigrants.[24] They are considered 'omogeneis' (co-ethnics) by the Greek Ministry of the Interior and have received special residency permits available only to members of the Greek minority from Albania.[25]
Welcome to The Apricity :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaldaboath
You sound like me lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Jaldaboath
Western Turks are the troo Ancient Greeks
Notice that after greeks, Sicily got arabs, normans, spanisc and french dominions. So ancient greek heritage is too far.
Greece is mixed with turkey and balkan people.
If you study Homerus, you will learn that ancient greeks were often blond !
I have a red beard, but brown hair. Can I be a Greek, or you think it's too much?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel83
Apart from the jokes, the original Greeks would have been R1b and maybe R1a and I invaders from the north who subdued J2 and E1b1b people. Ever since the majority of the Greek people are a combination of assimilated J2 and E1b1b people, who were not originally Greeks of course.
Somewhere in between a few Albanians farted... And they think they are somewhat relevant to the Greek culture because of it...
Since both my parents are Greeks, I have more "Greek ancestry" than any Italian. As far as the other stuff, I have no idea. I used to think I knew, but if you have been around the message boards long enough you realize that the genetic opinion trends change quite a lot. If I was like 19 again and we had 23andme back then I would probably buy in as well though.
Well, one needs to define what "Greek" means first.
Before the Greek language formed, there were pre-Greek people living in Greece. Those people interacted with Proto-Indo-Europeans entering the Balkans (whether PIEs entered from Turkey or the North is another story). The Pre-Greek language(s) blended with the PIE language to form Greek.
Now, the majority of Greek people have always been E1b1b1 and J2 people (these haplogroups represent the native pre-Greek element) with an R1b and an R1a element which represents PIEs or other population movements that occurred throughout Europe (and parts of Asia).
Also, it is important to remember that E1b1b1 peaks in Albania and not in Greece, while J2 is found at high frequencies throughout the Balkans. R1b and R1a is also found at noticeable levels throughout the Balkans, including the Greek world. This pattern obviously shows that all Balkanites are very similar genetically.
In other words, mainland Greeks have not exactly distanced themselves genetically from ancient Greeks by mixing with other Balkan populations. The only valid argument would be that they distanced themselves genetically from ancient Greeks by mixing with invading Slavs, but then again, the Slavs did not really have a significant genetic impact anywhere in the Balkans.
So, saying that Southern Italians/Sicilians are significantly more Greek than mainland Greeks is not exactly an accurate statement.
so do you mean that modern greeks got few mix with turkey?
and have you ever hearth about dori population invasion, so greek of Mykenes is a thing , greek of Socrates is totally other thing.
It makes not sense this geenralization.
On the other hand E-V13 is more diverse in Greeks than in Albanians. It is also very frequent and old in Peloponnese whereas Albanian E-V13 seems much younger..Quote:
Originally Posted by ABest
Turks mixed with Northern ItaliansQuote:
Originally Posted by Mikel83
Yes, I've read about that. Could that mean that E-V13 mutated in Albania?Quote:
Originally Posted by Raine
So many stupid things together!!
What about Northern Greece? They got bulgarian and turkish influences, in Thessaloniki also many jews arrived from Spain....and families became mixed !!
Let“study!!
Could be..I basically have no idea :biggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by ABest
Those families emigrated to Northern Italy and mixed with youQuote:
Originally Posted by Mikel83
ahahha you are so stupidly racist and ignorant about Greece !!
you think that Akilles looked like current greeks, you are so absurd !
Means nothing, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis
This is probably a highly flawed assumption. If you study the ancient civilizations movements from middle east where J1* , J2* and possibly E1b1* (NA) peaked at the time you will notice, that their works, arts, buildings, language influences, etc. , have a continuity from Middle East and all this civilization greatness ends around Italy where the aforementioned Y-dna lines fades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis
On the other hand, lets say that indeed you assumption is correct. That means that Northern invaders brought civilization to South Europe and middle East. Which it basically a nonsense since all Northern / Central Europe got minimal to non existent traces of ancient civilizations and totally unrelated to S. Europe / Middle East.
Dear Mike,Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel83
I appreciate your interest in the historical population of Greece. However, it is more complicated than "mixed families". Personally, I believe that population genetics (as far as it is "studied" in these forums) is largely pseudoscience (ie bullshit). The Ottoman millet system largely limited mixing between Muslims and Christians. Though it is true that Balkan Christians did mix to an extent. However, the differences between these Balkan Christian populations and their changes over time are largely exaggerated.
https://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/images/...175-medium.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Mikel83
Behave or I'll call Hellenas :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel83
ok, but noboy can negate that ancient greeks were another race: they are often blond, do you know it? It is written in Homeros texts and ancient greek literature also. Isnt it?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SwbkRI5Xi5...0/cat-snow.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Mikel83
Those Dorians were the real Greeks. Quite a few folks before them were also Greeks, but it is noticeable that the terms "Hellene" and "Greek" become predominant AFTER the Dorian invasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel83
I do not believe that this theory entails civilizing by Northerners (though this was implied by some of the coiners of the theory who wanted to link cultures of Ancient World to the icy North). Basically, Proto-Greeks simply gave their language and some aspects of their religion to that J2/E1b/Levantine/Mediterranean whatever population. But otherwise, the PIE Greeks were assimilated by the older superior culture of the Pre-Greeks. (Commonly referred here as Pelasgians)Quote:
Originally Posted by tEhSaint
The Turks gave very little genetic input in the Balkans. Half the real Turks in Turkmenistan are slanty-eyed like the Chinese. There are barely any slanty-eyed folks in Greece.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel83
The Bulgarians are also a population of Bulgars diluted into a huge pool of Slavs, many of whom had intermixed with Greek colonists in the Balkans long before they arrived in Greece proper.
Thessaloniki is the true exception, or at least it was until the NAZIs wiped out the vast majority of the Jews there...
To make a long story short, yes there were quite a lot of admixtures, but they had very little impact overall. Why? Because the only cases where a population really replaces the previous one (Until the modern era at least) is when the invaders have better agriculture than the older populations. This is how the Anglosaxons and other colonists conquered much of the known world... But the Greeks' knowledge of agriculture was always better than those who tried to take over.