The Shroud of Turin: Physical Proof of the Existence, Resurrection, and Divinity of Christ

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Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes

So is it deception or are they blind? I'm not sure if you're aware but I judge people's arguments based on whether there are contradictions.

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Both. They are blind to the truth, and in their blindness they conjure up all sorts of deceptions to deceive those who don't believe as they do.

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The Talmud wasn't written in Babylon. You could have simply looked that up. It's basically a religious legal source and rabbi opinions on different subjects. It's not a religious text.

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Jews (at least many of them) consider the Talmud canonical, and they use it more than the Torah. And of course it was written in Babylon. That's why it is called the Babylonian Talmud. You can check Wikipedia if you don't believe me.

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The old testament does not describe Jesus perfectly. What the NT does is shoe horn Jesus into the OT. How do I know? The Gospels were written not only long after Jesus died but even the four gospels that were accepted (there are many gospels) are problematic. First off, 3 of the 4 have been shown to come from an older gospel. The slight differences between the three shows human manipulation. The Gospel of John, which doesn't come from the same source as the other three, is so different from the other three that it's almost reading a different Jesus. The point I'm making is the Gospels are suspect for manipulation. It's very easy to manipulate the story and refer it back to a prophecy from the OT. The big problem, however, is that no where in the OT does it say the messiah will be God in the flesh.

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It does. The Old Testament is very clear about Jesus being the messiah. I know the Bible quite well, and I can agree with this. And now you come and cast suspicion on the gospels... interesting. When the Old Testament fully confirms the New Testament Gospel. Every true student of scripture and genuine person looking for God will know this. I can give you many, many pieces of evidence, and perhaps I should do so... since I can see ignorance about these matters is widespread. I will make sticky threads about it.

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He's not lying. That is what Jews actually believe about Jesus. How do I know? It doesn't differ from what other Jews think about Jesus and so you're being absurd.

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Yeah, that's what most of them do believe about Jesus, because their eyes are blinded to the truth... it is actually funny that they call chapters in the Old Testament that clearly point to Jesus as "cursed", and then they refuse to read it. Interesting...

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Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes

I already heard about the "bible code.' When I was a teen I liked to look at the weird books from the New Age section. It's a lot of fun for one's imagination but I never took any of it seriously. It's amusing fiction written as non-fiction.

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It's not that "Bible code" he's talking about... as in Dan Brown's fictional story. But yeah I see you didn't watch the video (both people in the video are Jews who have accepted Jesus as messiah, btw).

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Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes

People will cling to just about anything. Even if the shroud can be dated to the very long stretch of time between 200BC and 400AD it doesn't automatically mean it has any relation to Jesus.

btw, this is why Jews don't believe Jesus was the messiah: the concept of the messiah is very different to Jews than it is to Christians.

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There are plenty of Jews who have come to Christ throughout the ages. We already know that they have a different concept and that they were mistaken. That is actually in the scriptures.

There is nothing to "cling" to. If you watch the videos, everything points to the authenticity of the shroud. It's not just the age of the cloth, which has already been dated accurately to the First century. It's also the wounds matching the descriptions given in the bible, the pollen that can only be found in Jerusalem during the Spring (He was killed during Passover - in the Spring), the limestone bits which are found that match the limestone in the Jerusalem area, and there is symbolism on the man himself. He literally has a plaque on his heck which was placed there when he was buried that reads in Hebrew "Lamb of God." Those who buried him also placed coins with a shepherd's crook on his eyes (coins that date the shroud since they were printed in 23 AD by Pontius Pilat). He is the Good Shepherd.

They may as well have put a name plaque on him. The wounds themselves are very unique. How many other men where crucified with a crown of thorns?

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Originally Posted by Loki

Both. They are blind to the truth, and in their blindness they conjure up all sorts of deceptions to deceive those who don't believe as they do.

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And one of these 'deceptions' is pointing out that their messiah has always been defined as a political figure and not God in the flesh? It's a rhetorical question. I already know the answer.

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Jews (at least many of them) consider the Talmud canonical, and they use it more than the Torah. And of course it was written in Babylon. That's why it is called the Babylonian Talmud. You can check Wikipedia if you don't believe me.

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You specifically said it came from when Jews were held captive in Babylon. This is not true. And yeah I double checked Wikipedia.

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The Babylonian Talmud (Talmud Bavli) consists of documents compiled over the period of Late Antiquity (3rd to 5th centuries).[16] During this time the most important of the Jewish centres in Mesopotamia, a region called "Babylonia" in Jewish sources and later known as Iraq, were Nehardea, Nisibis (modern Nusaybin), Mahoza (al-Mada'in, just to the south of what is now Baghdad), Pumbedita (near present-day al Anbar Governorate), and the Sura Academy, probably located about 60 km south of Baghdad.[17]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud#History

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Babylonia didn't even exist as an actual place when it was written. It's simply a name they used for the area from historical memory.

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It does. The Old Testament is very clear about Jesus being the messiah. I know the Bible quite well, and I can agree with this. And now you come and cast suspicion on the gospels... interesting. When the Old Testament fully confirms the New Testament Gospel.

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I'm sure you know the Bible quite well as someone who became a fundamental Christian... a couple of months ago? I'm very confident I know the Bible, both OT and NT, far better than you. If anything I've shown so. I don't think you knew the first three Gospels in the NT is based on the same written source. There isn't a debate about it.

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Every true student of scripture and genuine person looking for God will know this. I can give you many, many pieces of evidence, and perhaps I should do so... since I can see ignorance about these matters is widespread. I will make sticky threads about it.

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Dude, I would bury you on a discussion about Bible and religion. I think you realize this and hence the 'oh, you are ignorant. Now watch me get basic information wrong.' So far I get a +1 that the Talmud wasn't written in Babylonia (and not during their captivity).

You know what was written in Babylonia during the captivity? The Torah or I should say most of the books in the Torah.

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Yeah, that's what most of them do believe about Jesus, because their eyes are blinded to the truth... it is actually funny that they call chapters in the Old Testament that clearly point to Jesus as "cursed", and then they refuse to read it. Interesting...

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What chapters would these be? Educate me. By doing so you educate everyone else.

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Originally Posted by OsricPearl

There are plenty of Jews who have come to Christ throughout the ages. We already know that they have a different concept and that they were mistaken. That is actually in the scriptures.

There is nothing to "cling" to. If you watch the videos, everything points to the authenticity of the shroud. It's not just the age of the cloth, which has already been dated accurately to the First century. It's also the wounds matching the descriptions given in the bible, the pollen that can only be found in Jerusalem during the Spring (He was killed during Passover - in the Spring), the limestone bits which are found that match the limestone in the Jerusalem area, and there is symbolism on the man himself. He literally has a plaque on his heck which was placed there when he was buried that reads in Hebrew "Lamb of God." Those who buried him also placed coins with a shepherd's crook on his eyes (coins that date the shroud since they were printed in 23 AD by Pontius Pilat). He is the Good Shepherd.

They may as well have put a name plaque on him. The wounds themselves are very unique. How many other men where crucified with a crown of thorns?

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I can think of a dozen ways to pull this off. Here is the most common sense one: take someone who has been crucified (the common way to execute someone) pierce his hands and place a crown on his head and there you go. You could do this at anytime during the Roman period. The Romans crucified many people across their empire. It was a popular way to execute someone.

btw, Pontius Pilate wasn't in Palestine in 23AD. He was there from 26AD to 36AD and so if I was you I'd check from the source you got your information because when someone who pretends to be an authority makes one error you can be sure there will be more.

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Originally Posted by Loki

It's not that "Bible code" he's talking about... as in Dan Brown's fictional story. But yeah I see you didn't watch the video (both people in the video are Jews who have accepted Jesus as messiah, btw).

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I know he's not talking about Dan Brown. I didn't even give the impression that that was what I thought.

You clearly can't comprehend English and hence why you couldn't understand my very clearly written post. Dan Brown is a fiction writer. He's not a New Age writer. Maybe you don't go to bookstores much to know what nonsense can be found in the New Age section. You'll find your 'Bible Code' there. You won't find it in the actual religion section.

If you couldn't understand my post, then you clearly can't comprehend the Bible. It's a more dense read than an internet post in simple English.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes

I can think of a dozen ways to pull this off. Here is the most common sense one: take someone has been crucified (the common way to execute someone) pierce his hands and place a crown on his head and there you go. You could so this at any time. The Romans crucified many people across Rome. It was a popular way to execute someone.

btw, Pontius Pilate wasn't in Palestine in 23AD. He was there from 26AD to 36AD and so if I was you I'd check from the source you got your information wrong because when someone who pretends to be an authority makes one error you can be sure there will be more.

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haha :rofl_002:

Yes, I'm sure that's what happened. They got some guy who was crucified and gave him the exact same wounds that they gave Jesus, pierced his side, pulled his beard, punched his face, nailed his hands and feet (and gave him the same sort of angles necessary), and then found a way to burn the image, along with the flowers and other items they buried on him, on to an expensive linen cloth in such a way that no one has been able to replicate it until modern times (and even then not perfectly).

And to add a to the deception, they put a plaque on his neck that reads "Lamb of God" and shepherds crook coins on his eyes - using the rarer variant. These two items cannot be seen unless the camera lens is open at a certain aperture because the image has a 3D quality to it.

So easy, even a caveman can do it!

I'm not going to sperg over three years, bro. You can sperg over three years. I probably got the date wrong. Oh well.

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Originally Posted by OsricPearl

haha :rofl_002:

Yes, I'm sure that's what happened. They got some guy who was crucified and gave him the exact same wounds that they gave Jesus, pierced his side, pulled his beard, punched his face, nailed his hands and feet (and gave him the same sort of angles necessary), and then found a way to burn the image, along with the flowers and other items they buried on him, on to an expensive linen cloth in such a way that no one has been able to replicate it until modern times (and even then not perfectly).

And to add a to the deception, they put a plaque on his neck that reads "Lamb of God" and shepherds crook coins on his eyes - using the rarer variant. These two items cannot be seen unless the camera lens is open at a certain aperture because the image has a 3D quality to it.

So easy, even a caveman can do it!

I'm not going to sperg over three years, bro. You can sperg over three years. I probably got the date wrong. Oh well.

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Why would I sperg? I don't care what you believe. I'm just pointing out the obvious and this is assuming it does come from... between 200BC and 400AD.

It is quite easy to do and there is an incentive to do so. People will do all sorts of things for a belief and anything that perpetuates the belief will be held with value.

But you're probably right. It's more likely the son of God left an imprint cuz... that just makes so much more sense.

Maybe you should be more skeptical and not just read only what tells you what you want to hear. That's no way to go through life.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes

And one of these 'deceptions' is pointing out that their messiah has always been defined as a political figure and not God in the flesh? It's a rhetorical question. I already know the answer.

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You think you're smart but you know nothing. However, you will one day see Jesus is the real messiah.. for sure. You can remain wallowing in your own ignorance if you prefer it, it's your life.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes

You specifically said it came from when Jews were held captive in Babylon. This is not true. And yeah I double checked Wikipedia.

Babylonia didn't even exist as an actual place when it was written. It's simply a name they used for the area from historical memory.

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I'm not sure what kind of trick you're trying to pull here, but I was right... Babylon/Babylonia... whether the ancient Babylon or the modern nearby regions... makes no real difference... it's still written by Jews from the exile to Babylon, in that same area which is now Iraq. Hence it is called the Babylonian Talmud. As opposed to Israel/Palestine...