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    Quote Originally Posted by B01AB20 View Post
    is there something that doesn't need to be 'created', whose existence is explained by itself?
    What has necessary existence rather than contingent existence.

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    Yo para ser feliz quiero un menhir. B01AB20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Also View Post
    What has necessary existence rather than contingent existence.
    the void.

    la nada, if you know what I mean.

    and it's better than god, god's existance cannot be proven, it's a matter of faith.

    but well, the void's existence is a matter of fact.

    void - 1.
    god - 0.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Diabolik View Post
    I prefer this alternative


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    Quote Originally Posted by B01AB20 View Post
    the void.

    la nada, if you know what I mean.

    and it's better than god, god's existance cannot be proven, it's a matter of faith.

    but well, the void's existence is a matter of fact.

    void - 1.
    god - 0.

    Void denotes absence of matter, but not strictly speaking nothing, you have time and space in the void. 'Nothing' itself has never been observed.

    The concept of God in Abrahamic religions has to involve necessary existence, for if it did not it would imply God has a degree of subordination, he could not exist, something that has only contingent existence due it's existence to things which he had no control that took place prior to its existence and indepently of it's own existence. So God would not be Almighty, he wouldn't have always existed and will always exist, so he wouldn't be what we call God in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Also View Post

    The concept of God in Abrahamic religions has to involve necessary existence, for if it did not it would imply God has a degree of subordination, he could not exist, something that has only contingent existence due it's existence to things which he had no control that took place prior to its existence and indepently of it's own existence. So God would not be Almighty, he wouldn't have always existed and will always exist, so he wouldn't be what we call God in the first place.
    OK, but that's methaphysics, it says how should be god nature's.

    Void denotes absence of matter, but not strictly speaking nothing, you have time and space in the void. 'Nothing' itself has never been observed.
    I'm not talking about the absence of matter somewhere in this universe, I'm talking of the void, the nothing, la nada... or whatever 'thing' IS outside this universe, or if you prefer, if universe was created in the big bang, what was before the big-bang.

    this universe is matter/energy, space and time evolutioning all togheter, outside the universe (maybe) there's no matter and hence no space-time.

    space and time are consequences of the existence of matter/energy, you could say matter/energy creates time and space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by B01AB20 View Post
    I'm not talking about the absence of matter somewhere in this universe, I'm talking of the void, the nothing, la nada... or whatever 'thing' IS outside this universe, or if you prefer, if universe was created in the big bang, what was before the big-bang.

    this universe is matter/energy, space and time evolutioning all togheter, outside the universe (maybe) there's no matter and hence no space-time.

    space and time are consequences of the existence of matter/energy, you could say matter/energy creates time and space.
    The thing is time and space started themselves in the Big Bang, they have a beginning, or at least that's what the current theories says. There is no 'outside' the universe/universes, and there is no 'before' the Big Bang, because there wasn't time.

    It should make you think that either everything has an origin in literally nothing, or the universe came out of something that exists outside of the time-space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Also View Post
    The thing is time and space started themselves in the Big Bang, they have a beginning, or at least that's what the current theories says. There is no 'outside' the universe/universes, and there is no 'before' the Big Bang, because there wasn't time.

    It should make you think that either everything has an origin in literally nothing, or the universe came out of something that exists outside of the time-space.
    I'm not an expert on last theories about cosmogenesis or physycs, but haven't you heard something like 'big bang was the outcome of fluctuations in the void (or nothing)'.
    I think is an accepted idea in quantum theory that matter can appear off 'literally nothing', a couple electron anti-electron system with total null energy for example.

    but speaking only about logic and not physycs, if the universe is not infinite, and it seems it is not, then is like and object floating into... into what?
    we can't conceive something that don't takes up space or don't has movement (in time), but that's our limitation only.

    what is the only possible final container of everything that IS, (or exists)?

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