Plz. classify Mesolithic/Neolithic Dutchman

[The Black Prince]

This man was part of the Swifterbant culture (5300 - 3400 BCE), the finds of this culture are hard to separate from the contemporary North-German Ellerbeck culture and the Danish Ertebølle culture. All three are therefore sometimes grouped together and seen as the predecessor of the western TRB culture. The three cultures are interesting because while they start as Mesolithic and halfway adapt to the domestication of animals and plants (Neolithization), they keep showing strong continuity.

[Alano]

cromagnon, i guess iam right

[Allenson]

Terrific reconstruction!

Yes, Cro-Magish/Northwest type (Doggerlander??)--particularly considering the low orbital height, moderate nasion depression, a degree of facial flattening, moderately long, straight nasal bridge.

His zygomatic arches are a bit more "Old European" and archaic than is often found today--but still, he has a familiar look to me.

Great pigmentation (skin, hair & eyes) and facial lines/creases too!


Where did you find these BP?

[Loki]

Russo-Latvian mix

[The Lawspeaker]

Russo-Latvian mix

If some elderly Dutchman would let their hair and beard grow then some would look very much like this chap.
As a matter of fact I know someone who looks just like him but I don't have a picture.

[Allenson]

Russo-Latvian mix

In the Mesolithic?

[Agrippa]

Definitely Cromagnid ("Proto-Dalofaelid"), a classic example even. Did they test his genetic background? Would be quite interesting because of the discontinuity theories and the fact that some regions and resulting populations might have had a significant genetic change since the Neolithic times and this individual could be someone before the Indoeuropean arrival.

[Allenson]

Definitely Cromagnid ("Proto-Dalofaelid"), a classic example even. Did they test his genetic background? Would be quite interesting because of the discontinuity theories and the fact that some regions and resulting populations might have had a significant genetic change since the Neolithic times and this individual could be someone before the Indoeuropean arrival.

Yes, the pendulum certainly has swung lately, hasn't it?

I'm not firmly in either camp at the moment--I think there is much more to come to light before we say with any definition.

I do wonder, if R1b for example, is so recent in Europe, how was it able to saturate the west of the continent as it did in so short of a time span?

Then again, it staurated much of North America in only a few hundred years...... But, there is archeological evidence of this certainly where this isn't so black and white back in Europe....

[Agrippa]

Yes, the pendulum certainly has swung lately, hasn't it?

I'm not firmly in either camp at the moment--I think there is much more to come to light before we say with any definition.

I do wonder, if R1b for example, is so recent in Europe, how was it able to saturate the west of the continent as it did in so short of a time span?

Then again, it staurated much of North America in only a few hundred years...... But, there is archeological evidence of this certainly where this isn't so black and white back in Europe....

Newer results just showed us how uncertain many theories which seemed to have been covered by solid genetic results really are. I totally agree with you that things aren't ready yet and we need much more complete data and results before the last word can be spoken.

However, the tests of ancient DNA are one of the best ways to get a grip on this issue, because if the prehistoric specimen had DNA we dont or just rarely find in moderns, this is definitely a hard blow for any continuity hypothesis, without single results being sufficient for big theories of course - rather hints until the picture is made clear by comprehensive comparative studies.

I had always doubts about the "big continuity" thesis and dont believe in a large substitution neither. My personal opinion is that we will find the truth rather in the middle between the two rather illogic extremes.

[Allenson]

Newer results just showed us how uncertain many theories which seemed to have been covered by solid genetic results really are. I totally agree with you that things aren't ready yet and we need much more complete data and results before the last word can be spoken.

However, the tests of ancient DNA are one of the best ways to get a grip on this issue, because if the prehistoric specimen had DNA we dont or just rarely find in moderns, this is definitely a hard blow for any continuity hypothesis, without single results being sufficient for big theories of course - rather hints until the picture is made clear by comprehensive comparative studies.

I had always doubts about the "big continuity" thesis and dont believe in a large substitution neither. My personal opinion is that we will find the truth rather in the middle between the two rather illogic extremes.

I agree, Agrippa--the truth likely lies somewhere between complete continuity and complete replacement.

From what I understand, ancient mtDNA is much easier to retrieve than is the Y-chromosome.