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Thread: Did Mesolithic Europeans have dark skin, dark hair, and blue eyes?

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    Default Did Mesolithic Europeans have dark skin, dark hair, and blue eyes?



    The pictures above are from the movie 10,000BC, I saw it when I was in 5th grade. I remember the basics and just read about it on Wikipedia, it is about a group of hunter gatherers called the Yagahl who lived in the Ural mountains in far eastern Europe(probably a lot of mtDNA U5a, U4, and U2e). They were depicted as brownish skinned, dark haired, and brown eyed there was a foreign girl who they found named Evolet and was known as the blue eyed girl. The creators of the movie may have very accurately depicted what most Europeans looked like in 10,000BC. I doubt they had kinky hair though it was probably very straight because they were west Eurasian aka Caucasian.

    Lazaridis 2013 found that a hunter gatherer from Luxemburg dated to 6220-5990 BC named Loschbour had the "blue eye" variant of SNP rs12913832. I don't know why(can't download the study) but he was reported as having a 52.7% probability for blue eyes, 26.8% probability of intermediate, and 20.7% probability for brown eyes. He was reported as having a 73.4% probability of black hair, 25.6% probability of brown hair, and 1% probability of blonde hair, 97.5% probability of dark hair and 2.5% probability of light hair. He did not have the "light skin" variant of SNP rs146554 which is dominate in west Eurasia today. I can't download the Laz 2013 study(I could about a week ago and saw his alleles in rs146554 and rs12913832) that's why I don't know why they gave percentages of his chance to have certain hair and eye color and I can't see all the SNP variants associated with pigmentation that Loschbour had. I will have to just go off what others who do have access to Laz 2013 say.

    I read on a Evo and Proud thread(The brown man with blue eyes) that he "lacked the ‘European’ alleles at all three genes involved in the whitening of European skin". Wikipedia(Human skin color) lists three genes with a SNP that have a variant that help cause pale skin in Europeans: SLC45A2, SLC24A5, and TYR. Those are probably the same three Evo and Proud wrote about. Based on their distribution I don't think they make a big effect on skin color but I trust the experts and do think Loschbour probably had very dark skin, I also think he most likely had blue eyes.

    Late this year(not sure exactly when) it was reported by the Spanish website Leonoticias.com that some 8,000 year old(Ancestral Journeys says dated to 5,000BC) hunter gatherer from northern Spain named La Brana-1 had his full genome sequenced and a researcher named Carles Lalueza -Fox said
    " Brana 1 had blue eyes "for the same mutation which citizens of Northern Europe have blue
    I bet he is talking about the "blue eye" variant of SNP rs12913832. A new paper about La Brana-1's genome was suppose to be published a few weeks after December 11, 2013, maybe they are comparing La Brana-1 to what was found in Laz 2013 that's why it is taking so long. It will be interesting to see if La Brana-1 had the three light skin genes and what hair color he had, they probably know as much about his pigmentation as Laz 2013 do of Loschbour and the farmer Stuttgart(7,500ybp Germany, LBK culture)'s pigmentation.

    We now know blue eyes were probably decently popular in Mesolithic Europeans(a least western). I don't think blue eyes found in Mesolithic Europe is a coincidence because blue is the main eye color in much of Europe today and very restricted to Europe like Mesolithic European ancestry, Y DNA I, mtDNA U5, and U2e(kind of U4). All of which we know through ancient DNA existed and probably dominated Mesolithic Europeans. It is very surprising to me that Loschbour probably had very dark skin and dark hair, because today in Europe Mesolithic ancestry correlates with paler skin, light eyes-light hair, and blue eyes tend to be more popular in light skinned and haired populations.

    It is hard to believe my somewhat recent Mesolithic European ancestors may have been very dark skinned, and that light skin did not become dominate till their descendants mixed with brown eyed and dark haired near eastern farmers in the Neolithic. My family is 100% northwest European and there are multiple brown skinned people but most of us have pale skin and blue eyes and a bunch of us have light or red hair. I have not been isolated to my family though, I have known basically who I am genetically since I was very little and I know nearly all Europeans have light skin and southern Europeans are darker. I can easily recognize if someone is European especially if they are northern, central, or eastern European. It is hard to believe our signature features may have not existed as dominate traits in Europe during most of the Mesolithic.

    I found through Wikipedia(click here) and two other sources(click here and here) that the "light skin" variant of SNP rs146554 in gene SLC24A5 is dominate in west Asia and Europe at least 90% in every population(said 97.5-100% in Europeans), and is also somewhat popular in north Africans, central Asians, and south Asians. It is said to have been found to make a major effect on lighting skin in Europeans, and causes 25-40% of the skin color difference between Europeans and west Africans. I totally believe them it causes pale skin(they dedicate their lives to science) but going from literally black to literally white is a huge step, and I am sure there are many other factors to skin color that haven't been found.

    There was a study in 2007(click here) that estimated the light skin variant in SNP rs146554 had its selective sweep in Europe 6,000-12,000ybp. A study from 2013(click here) estimated this light skin gene to have coalescence age of 22,000-28,000 years old. A study from 2012(click here) states that the three genes associated with European pale skin had their selective sweep 11,000-19,000 years ago. It is obvious these three light skin genes had positive selection and replaced their ancestral forms but it is hard to say why and when. I can tell by looking at maps of these three light skin genes that the only one that is significantly more popular in Europeans than west Asians is MATP(in gene SLC45A2) and I guess somewhat for the allele variation of an SNP in TRY.

    Here are the maps I am referencing to. Map of SLC24A5(variant of one of its SNP's) on top and the one colored in green, SLC45A2(variant of one of it's SNP's) the next down, and TYR(variant of one of it's SNP's) at the bottom.












    I do believe these genes are factors to creating pale skin in Europeans, but also that they are not the only factors. Like I said above there is only one maybe two that are(is) significantly more popular in Europe than west Asia. I think these studies assume all Europeans are mainly descended from one source. Europeans have many different sources of ancestry and can be very different from each other. It was common sense even before Laz 2013 that modern Europeans are mainly a mix between ingenious European hunter gatherers and near eastern farmers. There are of course other sources of ancestry for modern Europeans, Laz 2013 and other studies think Europeans, west Asians, south Asians, central Asians, native Americans, and maybe others(don't remember all the populations and cant download Laz 2013) have significant ancestry from an Upper Palaeolithic north Eurasian population. There is recent east Asian ancestry in eastern Europe, African(mainly north African) ancestry in Iberia and other parts of southern Europe, recent near eastern ancestry in Italy and the Balkans, and maybe some more sources. Greeks are more related to near easterns than they are to Finnish even though both are European.

    Not all European populations have the same skin color. From what I have seen northern, central, and eastern(Balkans-) typically have very pale skin but southern Europeans have what can be described as olive skin, and brown skin isn't rare(correct me if I am wrong). Based on Laz 2013 and other sources I think northern, central, and eastern Europeans(Balkans-) have close to 50% hunter gatherer ancestry, a little under 50% farmer ancestry and significant ANE(ancient north Eurasian) ancestry. Southern European(Iberia, Italy, and Balkans) have vast majority farmer and recent near eastern ancestry, with little amount of European hunter gatherer and ANE ancestry. That is just a generalization I didn't mention east Asian ancestry in east Europeans or the higher amount of hunter gatherer ancestry in Croatians and Basque compared to other southern Europeans, etc. Light skin overall is dominate in Europe and most likely has a common source.

    I totally dis agree with people who are now saying light skin comes from the near eastern farmers and blue eyes from the hunter gatherers. This is evidence I have seen these people use for that argument: of the three genes with SNP's associated with European light skin 8,000 year old hunter gatherer from Loschbour, Luxemburg didn't have any of the three, Stuttgart(7,500BP, LBK farmer girl from Germany) had one light, one dark, and one heterozygous, and ~5,250 year old early copper age farmer from the alps named Otzi had two light and one dark. I got the info in the previous sentence from a blogger on Dienekes(click here to see the thread he posted on) I cant verify because I cant download Laz 2013 right now but when I could I remember seeing Stuttgart did have light skin variant of SLC24A5. What those people don't understand what was found in the farmers are excepted results for modern west Asians and Europeans and Luschbour's results are extremely rare for a west Asian or European person, and most modern Europeans don't have all three anyways. Modern Sardinia are very close match's to Stuttgart and Otzi in autosomal DNA so I think they probably had olive skin, and possibly brown, and very white like modern Sardinia.

    I looked at the blue eye gene(takes to long to say alleles SNP of whatever gene) click here, it seems to be a major factor to creating blue eyes but of course it does not always result in blue eyes. There were plenty of other SNP's listed on SNPedia's page for SNP rs12913832 as being connected with blue eyes I have no idea if Loschbour had them. According to SNPedia 80% of people with alleles A,A have brown eyes, all with A,G have brown eyes, and 99% with G,G have blue eyes. To me that would mean Loschbour without almost any doubt had blue eyes, but I will just go by what Laz 2013 said 52.7% probability because they know more than me. I have heard people reference some study that claims the first person to have blue eyes lived 6,000-10,000ybp and was a farmer. I think they were basing that on a blue eye gene already found in two Mesolithic European hunter gatherers so we now know it did not first appear in the Neolithic and modern blue eyes probably descend from pre Neolithic hunter gatherers of Europe.

    If blue eyes were somewhat popular in Mesolithic Europe(at least western) than that probably means they were light skinned and had a high amount of light hair. The reason is because today heavily blue eyed populations always have light skin and high amounts of light hair. I don't see how some or all Mesolithic European populations had dark skin, dark hair, and a high amount of blue eyes.

    Here is a list of European populations with their WGH(west European hunter gatherer: based on Loschbour), ANE(Ancient north Eurasian based on MA1), and EEF(based on Stuttgart) results from Laz 2013 and Eurogenes EEF, WHG, and ANE test with their hair and eye color percentages. The hair and eye color statistics are from here. I rank them from highest WGH to lowest

    1.Sami(saw on this thread, results for one north sami person tested in Laz 2013) EEF=28.3, WGH=51.57, ANE=20.1, Norway Sami light hair=49%(blonde=30%, red=1%), light eyes=68%(blue=50%)

    2.Estonian EEF=32.2, WGH=49.5, ANE=18.3, light hair=70%(blonde=48%, red=1%), light eyes=85%(blue=69%)

    3.Finn(posted results on this Eurogenes blog) EEF=32.49, WGH=48, ANE=19.42, light hair=80%(blonde=58%, red=2%), light eyes=89%(blue=72%)

    4.Lithuanian EEF=36.4, WGH=46.4, ANE=17.2, light hair=57%(blonde=38%, red hair=0%) light eyes=78%(blue=61%)

    5. 75% Swedish, 25% Finnish(posted results on this Eurogenes) EEF=36, WGH=46, ANE=17.9, Swedish light hair=78%(blonde=54%, red=3%), light eyes=88%(blue=72%), Finnish light hair=80%(blonde=58%, red=2%), light eyes=89%(blue=72%). There are not even 100 samples for hair and eye color for each population so I have maps under them.

    6.Icelandic EEF=39.4, WGH=45.6, ANE=15, probably mixture of Irish and Scandinavian percentages.

    7.Belorussian EEF=41.8, WGH=43.8, ANE=15.1 light hair=55%(blonde=35%, red=0%), light eyes=74%(blue=55%)

    8.Norweigan EEF=41.1, WGH=42.8, ANE=16.1 light hair=75%(blonde=48%, red=5%), light eyes=88%(blue=72%)

    8.Scottish EEF=39, WGH=42.8, ANE=18.2 light hair=52%(blonde=23%, red=11%), light eyes=80%(blue=63%)

    9.Polish(averaged two posted results from Eurogenes) EEF=41.9, WGH=40.7, ANE=17.3, light hair=46%(blonde=28%, red=1%), light eyes=68%(blue=50%)

    10.Ukrainian EEF=46.2, WGH=38.7, ANE=15.1, light hair=45%(blonde=28%, red=0%), light eyes=53%(blue=37%)

    11.Orcadien(region of Scotland) EEF=45.7, WGH=38.5, ANE=15.8 Scotland light hair=52%(blonde=23%, red=11%), light eyes=80%(blue=63%)

    12.Czech(posted results on Eurogenes) EEF=47, WGH=37.34, ANE=15.84 light hair=54%(blonde=34%, red=1%), light eyes=65%(blue=48%)

    13.English EEF=49.5, WGH=36.4, ANE=14.1 light hair=56%(blonde=30%, red=6%), light eyes=74%(blue=55%)

    14.Czech EEF=49.5, WGH=33.8, ANE=16.7 light hair=54%(blonde=34%, red=1%), light eyes=65%(blue=48%)

    15.French EEF=55.4, WGH=31.1, ANE=13.5 light hair=37%(blonde=18%, red=3%), light eyes=48%(blue=32%)

    16.Basque EEF=59.3, WGH=29.3, ANE=11.4, light hair=15%(blonde=7%, red=1%), light eyes=28%(blue=17%)

    17.Croatian EEF=56.1, WGH=29.3, ANE=14.5, light hair=25%(blonde=14% red=0%), light eyes=40%(blue=26%)

    18.French south EEF=67.5, WGH=19.5, ANE=13, around the same hair and eye color percentages as Basque

    19.Bergamo(in north Italy) EEF=71.5, WGH=17.7, ANE=10.8, Italy light hair=15%(blonde=7%, red=1%), light eyes=30%(blue=18%)

    20.Sardinian EEF=81.5, WGH=17.5, ANE=0.8, light hair=guess around 90%, light eyes=guess around 3-5%

    21.Bulgarian EEF=71.5, WGH=14.7, ANE=14.1, light hair=10%(blonde=5%, red=0%), light eyes=27%(blue=17%)

    22.Tuscan EEF=74.6, WGH=13.6, ANE=11.8, Italy light hair=15%(blonde=7%, red=1%), light eyes=30%(blue=18%)

    23.Pais Vasco EEF=71.3, WGH=12.5, ANE=16.3 light hair guess=10-20%, light eyes guess=20-30%

    24.Albanian EEF=78.1, WGH=9.5, ANE=12.7, light hair=8%(blonde=4%, red=0%), light eyes=20%(blue=11%)

    25.Spainish EEF=80.9, WGH=6.8, ANE=12.3, light hair=12%(blonde=6% red=1%), light eyes=26%(blue=15%)

    26.Greek EEF=79.2, WGH=5.8, ANE=15.1, light hair=4%(blonde=2%, red=0%), light eyes=17%(blue=9%)



    It seems to me light eyes(especially blue) and blonde hair or any light hair color that is not red correlate pretty well with WGH. This is the main reason I think they were popular in Mesolithic Europe. I don't understand people who claim they descend from near eastern farmers(EEF), there is really no evidence for that. I do think it is possible some populations in Europe during the Mesolithic were very dark overall and some very light. 2/2 blue eyes from Mesolithic west Europe makes me think they were pale but Loschbour not having all three genes associated with European light skin and that he had very dark hair may mean they were somewhat dark, we need more ancient DNA to know if Loschbour was a fluke. I think he may have been a Fluke because today in Europe darkness correlates with EEF and lightness with WGH.

    Germanics and Celts probably mainly descend from Indo Europeans that spread in west Europe from far eastern Europe during the metal ages, Finnish and Sami descend from Uralic's who spread in Scandinavia from far eastern Europe during the metal ages, Slavs and Balts may mainly descend from Indo Europeans and Uralic's who spread there in the metal ages from eastern Europe. These are the Europeans who have high amount of WGH ancestry, pale skin, and high amounts of light hair and eyes and it is very possible all of them trace most of their ancestry to around the same area of Russia just 6,000 years ago. Who knows how related their ancestors in Russia where but I am sure they were somewhat related because of how close they were to each other. This could mean there was a massive spread of light skin, hair, and eyes from far eastern Europe during the metal ages.

    There needs to be a lot more ancient genomes to know if this is true or not, I still think it is more likely Mesolithic Europeans were very pale skinned, light haired and eyed, but still possible they were very dark skinned, haired, and eyed or very blue eyed. It is very hard to figure out when Europeans ancestors depigmentated it happened at some point. Evo and Proud seems to support the hypothesis that pale features became dominate because of sexual selection of females, and thinks it was complete 10,000-20,000ybp. I think it was recent based on constant age estimates of the three light skin genes, blue eyes, and blonde hair that are within the range of 10,000-20,000ybp. This major change in pigmentation also had a lot to do with genetics.
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    Last edited by Fire Haired; 01-13-2014 at 03:26 AM.

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    The studies go in that direction, in fact even the latest Loschbour sample had only 52% chance of Light Eyes so he could very well had brown eyes..

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    Quote Originally Posted by safinator View Post
    The studies go in that direction, in fact even the latest Loschbour sample had only 52% chance of Light Eyes so he could very well had brown eyes..
    I don't know why they reported him having a 52.7% probability of blue eyes, because just based on the fact he had G,G alleles in SNP rs12913832 would mean there is a very small possibility he did not have blue eyes. They also reported that he had only a 20.7% chance for brown eyes. Blue eyes were just reported in a some 8,000 year old(Ancestral journeys says dated to 5,000BC) hunter gatherer in northern Span, that researcher said he had the same blue eye gene that is in modern north Europeans so probably the gene in Loschbour I just mentioned. There is already basically prove that blue eyes existed in Mesolithic west Europe. I guess they could be wrong about that genes connection with blue eyes, and both the hunter gatherers had brown eyes. The whole reason I made this thread is because it is surprising news that Mesolithic Europeans may have been very dark and I wanted to show as much info there is that can help discover the pigmentation history of Europe. I am starting to understand Laz 2013 and probably will make multiple threads about the study.

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    @Fire Haired

    There are dozens of SNPs which are associated with eye color, a dozen probably with blue eye color, the most important one being the one which you mention. Yes, I have seen the 23andme statistics, but still...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solin View Post
    @Fire Haired

    There are dozens of SNPs which are associated with eye color, a dozen probably with blue eye color, the most important one being the one which you mention. Yes, I have seen the 23andme statistics, but still...
    Based on that one SNP and what Laz 2013 I think Loschbour probably had blue eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solin View Post
    @Fire Haired

    There are dozens of SNPs which are associated with eye color, a dozen probably with blue eye color, the most important one being the one which you mention. Yes, I have seen the 23andme statistics, but still...
    I know a few people that have brown eyes and have GG(Most likely blue) at rs12913832.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Based on that one SNP and what Laz 2013 I think Loschbour probably had blue eyes.
    Probably according to Laz 2013, but I was trying to tell you why HG individual may have 50+% probability of having blue eyes instead of 99%. He may not have all allele associated with blue eyes common in todays people where blue eyes and people who are GG positive on rs12913832 predominate.

    Again I know nothing about this, just trying to give you some explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solin View Post
    Probably according to Laz 2013, but I was trying to tell you why HG individual may have 50+% probability of having blue eyes instead of 99%. He may not have all allele associated with blue eyes common in todays people where blue eyes people who are GG positive on rs12913832 predominate.

    Again I know nothing about this, just trying to give you some explanation.
    I can't download Laz 2013 you should try here and see if he has all the right alleles in the SNP's listed that are suppose to be connected with blue eyes click here. What do you think about paleness in Europeans and our ""child like faces" being very strong sexual selection of women(click here). I think Evo and proud makes some good points, I don't know how true the child like face thing is. If you exclude southern Europeans, Europeans are almost totally half and half native hunter gatherer and near eastern farmer so the facial features should be a mix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hevo View Post
    I know a few people that have brown eyes and have GG(Most likely blue) at rs12913832.
    SNPedia said that 99% of the people with GG have blue eyes.

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    Safantor and Hakon if Mesolithic Europeans(at least western) had dark skin and dark hair there is no way they had a high amount of blue eyes, if they had a high amount of blue eyes then they also had pale skin and a high amount of light hair. Those are two facts people need to understand, possible this so called blue eye gene doesn't cause blue eyes and is just a gene from Mesolithic Europeans, and blue eyes today correlate to the distribution of Mesolithic ancestry that's why the two have been connected. I doubt that's true though, the blue eye gene found in Mesolithic Europe probably means they had pale skin and a high amount of light hair. Loschbour missing all three of the pale skin genes(debatable how much of an effect they make) and that he probably had black hair is very unexpected.

    Black hair today is rare but exists in heavily Mesolithic descended Europeans like Estonians and Finns, missing the light skin genes is rare for all modern Europeans and west Asians. The farmers Stuttgart and Otzi were typical for Europeans or west Asians in their light skin genes, which probably means they ere already dominate in west Asia by the begging of farming. It is possible these genes did not exist in Neolithic west Asians long lost relatives Mesolithic Europeans, and that they were all brought to Europe with farming. I doubt that, if it is true I think there are other factors to European light skin that Loschbour probably did have.


    Take a look at Loschbour's skull it is strangely archaic looking. Even though he was around 100% west Eurasian aka Caucasian(directly descended of Upper Palaeolithic Europeans), he is probably the only genome there is of a pure European. I bet he looked very strange in person.



    Now look at La Brana-1's skull a hunter gatherer from about 1,000 years later(Spanish website said he is some 8,000 years old) and is from northern Spain he had some farmer admixture but mainly of the same blood as Loschbour. He was reported as having the same blue eye gene as modern north Europeans have, bet its that same gene Loschbour had.



    Here is a skull of a modern European not sure what type which matters a lot. Greeks have a very small amount of hunter gatherer ancestry while Sami have well over majority hunter gatherer ancestry.



    La Brana-1 to me obviously looks Caucasian, but Loschbour has an extremely strange skull with a flat and wide nose. There is probably a huge variety of skull shapes west Eurasians aka Caucasians can have today but they go by the same basic shapes. Loschbour could have been something unique. It is fun to imagine what these people looked like all we need right now is their pigmentation, there are already tons of skeletons.
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