What does a basic racial typology describe in Europe?

[Mordid]

What interesting about that graphic you made is that Nordid is the most ''progessive'' type because Nordid, Atlanto-Med/Pontid, Nord-Indid, Gracile Med, Iranid belong to Aurignacoid speciem and should be progressive in equal way.



It appear to me that West Baltid/Cromagnoid are closer to Cromagnid proper/Faelid, but aren't Borrebies suppose to be closer to Faelid/Cromagnid proper? Borrebies on normally are archaic Cromagnoid than West Baltids.

[Agrippa]

Both depictions suffer from the fact that they being two-dimensional, this means for some cases I had just the choice to put types side by side or changing connections in a way, I wouldn't have done in a written description or if using three dimensions.

But Borreby/Nordalpinoid is actually in the Cromagnoid spectrum or borderline in this graph too, even though it is suboptimal in this respect.

As for the progressive character of the Nordid type vs. others, on average it is just a peak type, but like you said others are pretty close, this means that almost the whole corner of the progressive side would be MUCH CLOSER if that wouldn't have been a bad graphical realisation.

Especially Atlantomediterranid, Dinarid and Iranid f.e.

[Ar-Man]

Yes it is related to the Cro-Magnon remains in the narrower sense.

That is important to note, because authors and even anthropologists speak of all early European Palaeolithic humans as of "Cro-Magnon" people so they mix up all kinds of types, which just lived at that time in Europe regardless of whether they being close by their features to "the Old of Cro-Magnon".......

Thank you.
And you have any suppositions when & where the Europoid-Cromagnoid type was completely formed?

[Agrippa]

Thank you.
And you have any suppositions when & where the Europoid-Cromagnoid type was completely formed?

Well, not really. I just know where it was present early on and in later times, you find such variants from Europe to China, and in North Africa and Asia.

So it is a really wide range of possibilities and only the combined archaeological typolocial-physical and genetic research can (probably) solve that in the future with a higher certainty.

But my idea is, that this type of man came into existence in Central Asia, rather, and spread from there in the regions mentioned.

[Ar-Man]

Well, not really. I just know where it was present early on and in later times, you find such variants from Europe to China, and in North Africa and Asia.......

I see, I was asking you because yesterday I read the recent K12a admixture experiment of Dienekes, that shows that Blumenbach may have been right in some level, about the original West Eurasians.

According to Dienekes's K12a Experiment the core component of Caucasoid race lived 16000 BP in Gobekli Tepe Region(Western Armenian Highland & Eastern Anatolia).




As I understood instead of West Asian term he's using now Caucasus & Gedrosia,as you can see in this graph Caucasus genetics component is centered, ie he is more closer to original Caucasoids, he explains it here:

Moreover, if these populations migrate from their original homeland and absorb the indigenous inhabitants wherever they go, then they will diverge even more, depending on how much admixture they undergo, and how distantly related the aboriginal inhabitants are.


It is clear that admixture has played a role in the overall divergence of the Six. For example, the Northwest_African component is shifted (relative to the remaining five) towards the other African components; the Southwest_Asian is also thus shifted, but less noticeably. The Gedrosia component is shifted towards the South_Asian one; and the easternmost components, the North_European, and Gedrosia ones, are shifted towards the Asian components.

All these shifts are quite salient in the MDS plot, and there is ample evidence for the aboriginal populations being shifted in the expected direction in each region.

Then he continues:

The Neolithic of West Eurasia started, by most accounts, c. 12 thousand years ago. Its origin was in the area framed by the Armenian Plateau in the north, the Anatolian Plateau in the west, the Zagros Range in the east, and the lowlands of southern Mesopotamia and the Levant in the south. Intriguingly, the prehistoric site of Göbekli Tepe sits right at the center of this important area, in eastern Anatolia/northern Mesopotamia.

If there is a candidate for where the ur-population that became the modern Six lived, the early Neolithic of the Near East is surely it. This hypothesis makes the most sense chronologically, archaeologically, genetically, and geographically.

Migrants out of the core area would have spread their genes in all directions, becoming differentiated by a combination of drift, admixture, and the selection pressures they faced in different natural and cultural environments; some of them would acquire lighter pigmentation, others lactase persistence, malaria resistence, the ability to process the dry desert air or to survive the long winter nights of the arctic. These spreads were sometimes gradual, sometimes dramatic: they took place over thousands of years and from a multitude of secondary and tertiary staging points.

In Arabia, the migrants would have met aboriginal Arabians, similar to their next door-neighbors in East Africa, undergoing a subtle African shift (Southwest_Asians). In North Africa, they would have encountered denser populations during the favorable conditions of MIS 1, and by absorbing them they would became the Berbers (Northwest_Africans). Their migrations to the southeast brought them into the realm of Indian-leaning people, in the rich agricultural fields of the Mehrgarh and the now deserted oases of Bactria and Margiana. Across the Mediterranean and along the Atlantic facade of Europe, they would have encountered the Mesolithic populations of Europe, and through their blending became the early Neolithic inhabitants of the Mediterranean and Atlantic coasts of Europe (Mediterraneans). And, to the north, from either the Balkans, the Caucasus, or the trans-Caspian region, they would have met the last remaining Proto-Europeoid hunters of the continental zone, becoming the Northern Europeoids who once stretched all the way to the interior of Asia.

Source : http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/12...ians-came.html


So I was curious about your opinion, can it be the Archaic Eurasin Sapiens or the Aurigancoid type?

Thanks.

[Comte Arnau]

The Mediterranean label there is confusing and should rather be South-Western European, as it's predominant in Sardinians and Basques, and dominant in Iberians, French, North Italians and British.

That, or Norwegians and Swedes are more Mediterranean than Sicilians.

[Ar-Man]

The Mediterranean label there is confusing and should rather be South-Western European, as it's predominant in Sardinians and Basques, and dominant in Iberians, French, North Italians and British.

That, or Norwegians and Swedes are more Mediterranean than Sicilians.

Those are just names in any case, I suppose in his new calculations he found out something new and that is why he named it Mediterranean rather than Southern European.

[Comte Arnau]

Those are just names in any case, I suppose in his new calculations he found out something new and that is why he named it Mediterranean rather than Southern European.

Well, judging from this at least, Western European would even be a better name than Southern European.

[Agrippa]

I see, I was asking you because yesterday I read the recent K12a admixture experiment of Dienekes, that shows that Blumenbach may have been right in some level, about the original West Eurasians.

According to Dienekes's K12a Experiment the core component of Caucasoid race lived 16000 BP in Gobekli Tepe Region(Western Armenian Highland & Eastern Anatolia).

Actually he and others spoke about a different option, now hardly to define, namely Central Asia.

It is quite clear that important waves to Europe, important also for the formation of the modern Europid races in Europe, came from the East. Most authors held up two options, Anatolia-Caucasus and Eastern Europe-Central Asia. From both areas came important waves of modern humans at different times, but the main problem for the case of Central Asia is, that Europid Central Asia, like it existed for thousands of years, doesn't exist any longer, because of the Turko-Mongol expansion and the huge wedge it formed.

For example between Nordo-Cromagnoid and Irano-Indoid is now a huge Mongoloid dominated wedge, but that wasn't the case in the crucial period, even on the contrary, Central Asia might have been a centre which influenced both!

Also for Blumenbach: He judged mostly by the skulls and living phenotypes, he didn't look at the genes and it is very important to note, once again, that ancient genetic relationship and modern racial-phenotypical relations can be quite different, especially if considering that the Armenoidisation happened rather late, at a time most of the immigrants from Southern West Asia (Near East) were already on the continent!

And those which brought the huge genetic impact were predominantely Mediterranoid, some had Alpinoid tendencies, but they were for the most part not even remotely Armenoid.

So genetic relationship is one thing, racial another, because many things changed in both places in meantime.

Another issue is that, like I said, a huge wave came from that Anatolian-Near Eastern area, but the question is, did a major wave (Indo-Europeans) came directly, or indirectly. In the later case, rather a package of traits and customs moved, rather than the full genetic impact.

And I think that is true for the area North of the Caucasus, were Indo-Europeans came up, mostly influenced from two sides late Mesolithic-Neolithic Mediterranoids and local robust Aurignacoids and even more Cromagnoids. The fusion produced Indo-Europeans, rather, than the original wave being Indo-European already - that's at least my opinion, also based on the fact that the "old Mediterranean" cultures had many important aspects, but lacked many others for the "Indo-European package", so additional ingredients, from race-genes to culture-memes, and local pressures, competition and selection, seems to have been needed.

So I was curious about your opinion, can it be the Archaic Eurasin Sapiens or the Aurigancoid type?

The expansive group can only have been Proto-Mediterranoid/Aurignacoid, no doubt about it, because we see an explosion and massive expansion of that type together with the higher cultural package.

It started earlier in the warmer period already, even Mesolithics, mainly in the South Eastern Europe and the area North of the Caucasus, interestingly the two main candidates today for the formation of Indo-Europeans as well...

[Ar-Man]

And those which brought the huge genetic impact were predominantely Mediterranoid, some had Alpinoid tendencies, but they were for the most part not even remotely Armenoid.

I know that Armenoid is relatively young subrace, do you have an idea how old it is? And also the age of the Nordid sub-race, if it is possible. Thanks.