Are Montenegrins traitors?

[Stefan_Dusan]

@Solin

We here don't care about entire genome,but only part which is indicator of migrations and that's primarly y-dna,and then mtdna.
Bosniaks are indeed native to SE Europe,and they are genetically one of the most paleolithic Europeans (50%I2).
Are you people aware that these little amateurish atdna projects from amateur blogs are not used in real science?
And that only y-dna is used in real science?
atdna can be used only for individuals-not for populations.

Y-DNA only can explain origin of your surname. It can not explain your entire genetics. If I take African wife, my son will have my paternal haplogroup. Obviously he will be genetically foreign to the Balkans or even entire Europe. This is such blinding common sense I don't know why I have to explain it.

And no one knows if the dinaric subclade is originally from the Balkans or brought in by waves of other people from Eastern Europe. There is evidence for both.

[Stefan_Dusan]

It seems kind of stupid for a "nation" of six hundred thousand to split up from Serbia. All it accomplished was making Serbia landlocked which is obviously part of the Western agenda to punish and weaken it. Some people on this forum say Macedonians are confused Bulgarians but there is a far greater difference between Macedonia and Bulgaria then there is between Serbia and Montenegro.

They never split from Serbia but Yugoslavia. Montenegro was independent republic as was Serbia. Due to problems with Yugoslavia, and generous money from West, Montenegro politicians pushed the referendum hard. Even so only 55% of people voted for it, and that was due to Albanian, Bosniak, and Croatian minorities in Montenegro.

In the Balkans, Serbia and Montenegro have very good relations. I can travel there from Serbia without a passport. The ease of going into Montenegro from Serbia is easier than from Kosovo to Albania. Also no friendlier people to Serbs than Montenegrins except for maybe RS entity in Bosnia.

[Chieftain]

You are a boring Bosnian propagandist and a liar.

I see Albanians like to claim Montenegrins as their own but in reality they are much taller and more robust than Albos .Such Albos are mostly Albanised Serbs .

No one claims them or anything, but one thing is undeniable and that is that even if they are serbs as you say, they have a good proportion of albanian blood, so it's quite the contrary as Montenegrins are intermixed with Ghegs if not them being one themselves, as our set book of laws(Kanuni) banished individuals when mixed with slavs, turks or gypsies, such individuals were thrown out of the land and were now recognized as foreigners.

'Albanised Serbs' is an oxymoron I believe, as the highlanders from the North(I am one robust, tall light featured one) look exactly like the ones in Kosovo, as one can pick these so called 'albanised serbs' from a mile easily from other slavs, they show genetic proximity only to their brothers in Kosovo.

I am not claiming that all Montenegrins are slavicized albanians, but the striking similiarity in some habits, facial measurment, traditional clothes and traditions gives an outsider a hint of similiarity between Gheg Albanians and Montenegrins, whilst in these characteristics they change a lot from serbs/other slavs, plus these 'albanised serbs' ghegs score the least slavic genetic similiarity amongst all albanians, they have a very distant look.

If you want an example of this, look at Marko Miljanov who was born to a Montenegrin father and an Albanian mother, both from highlands clans.

As a result I believe them to be a mix of Illyrians, Slavs with obvious Vlachic and Venetian influence or in other words a mix of albanians, serbs, vlachs and ancient venetian settlers.

[Stefan_Dusan]

No one claims them or anything, but one thing is undeniable and that is that even if they are serbs as you say, they have a good proportion of albanian blood, so it's quite the contrary as Montenegrins are intermixed with Ghegs if not them being one themselves, as our set book of laws(Kanuni) banished individuals when mixed with slavs, turks or gypsies, such individuals were thrown out of the land and were now recognized as foreigners.

Which Kanun are you talking about? Leka's kanun does not even mention slavs, turks, or gypsies even once in entire tradition, and this is most famous kanun.

'Albanised Serbs' is an oxymoron I believe, as the highlanders from the North(I am one robust, tall light featured one) look exactly like the ones in Kosovo, as one can pick these so called 'albanised serbs' from a mile easily from other slavs, they show genetic proximity only to their brothers in Kosovo.

Find me such study.

If you want an example of this, look at Marko Miljanov who was born to a Montenegrin father and an Albanian mother, both from highlands clans.

He was to Serbian father and Miljanov identified as Serbian. Back then female heritage was not transported like female name or inheritance.

Dear Serb brother, if you had the chance to see the heroes that I have seen, your heart would give you no peace until you have responded to the heroes who die merrily for their own and rights of all of us. - Miljanov

As a result I believe them to be a mix of Illyrians, Slavs with obvious Vlachic and Venetian influence or in other words a mix of albanians, serbs, vlachs and ancient venetian settlers.

They are Serbians mixed with Croatians in north-western regions and albanians in eastern regions. But overall Serbs. Maybe Italians on the coast. Aromanians and Illyrians are pretty much extinct people.

[Hevo]

Just for emphasis because I hear this stupidity repeated again and again and again on this forum. Though it's bit curious to me why Macedonians are closer than Serbians. Perhaps more testing needs to be done on either Montenegrins, Serbs or Macedonians. One things for sure, "Kosovars" (Gheg Kosovar Albanians) are way way way off. On average the only Albanians who resemble Serbian Montenegrins are those from far north. And that's due to historical intermixing. Whereas the rest of Albanians not so much at all. Anywhere you go in Serbia, there is not big difference between Montenegrins and Serbs except Montenegrins are maybe slightly more dinaric version.

I agree, MDLP calculators are not perfect but it shows that Montenegrins and Kosovar Albanians cluster far from each other.(20.+ distance is almost irrelevant)

[Chieftain]

Which Kanun are you talking about? Leka's kanun does not even mention slavs, turks, or gypsies even once in entire tradition, and this is most famous kanun.



Find me such study.



He was to Serbian father and Miljanov identified as Serbian. Back then female heritage was not transported like female name or inheritance.

Dear Serb brother, if you had the chance to see the heroes that I have seen, your heart would give you no peace until you have responded to the heroes who die merrily for their own and rights of all of us. - Miljanov



They are Serbians mixed with Croatians in north-western regions and albanians in eastern regions. But overall Serbs. Maybe Italians on the coast. Aromanians and Illyrians are pretty much extinct people.

Ghegs from where I come from descend from 12 tribes(Shkrel, Kastrat, Kelmend, Hoti, Gashi, Bytyci, Krasniqi, Koja e Kuçit, Pali i Bardhe being the most famous/numerous) and we form the core of North-Western Albania, we do not obey the Kanun of Leke(that is for the region of Dukagjini) and that's why it's called the Kanun of Leke Dukagjini and our own Kanun is called Kanuni Maleve(Highlands LKnun) and it is written in the third chapter(point 53 in the heritage/racial laws) of it that intermixing with gypsies, turks and slavs is forbidden and cursed both by the population, God and the Catholic church(we're the bulk of Catholics in Albania).


Now I am aware that amnogst slavs the motherline was not important/acknowledged and that individuals identified with the fatherline always, but tell me: Can a british born englishman identify as English when his mother is Nigerian or Pakistani?

My point was that even whilst some montenegrins might be derived from slavs(I don't jump around saying that all are slavicized albanians) some are derived from Albanians and a good proportion of them has our blood, even though not in the fatherline.

Just wanted to say that R1a is less than 3% amongst my people which is the lowest in Albania as you might find more slavs in Southern Albania than here lol, they have even no cultural/traditional link to slavs or serbs..so the albanised serbs dream is just a dream my friend

Overall I agree that they're a mix of albanians, slavs and maybe ancient venetian settlers. but denying that they are mixed with albanians and they have nothing to do with them is quite strange if you consider their close proximity and that albanians have always been a quite considerable part of that country(over 5% of the population now, but due to large immigration/assimilation it surely has been higher in the past.)

[Black Wolf]

Montenegrins are essentially Slavicized Albanians.

That is true I believe.

[Stefan_Dusan]

That is true I believe.

On what basis do you believe it when Kosovar Albanians score farther to them than Norwegians?

[Black Wolf]

On what basis do you believe it when Kosovar Albanians score farther to them than Norwegians?

Hmmm interesting I did not know that. You mean genetically of course right? It could be because Kosovar Albanians have been isolated from other Balkan groups genetically. I read before that Montenegrins are essentially Albanians who have adopted or assimilated aspects of South Slavic culture.

[safinator]

On what basis do you believe it when Kosovar Albanians score farther to them than Norwegians?

MDLP is an amateur project, besides assimilation and migrations are always tracked down by Y-DNA frequencies and never by autosomal, in fact even MTdna isn't taken into account considering migrations!