Are Montenegrins traitors?

[Stefan_Dusan]

When it comes to height and general look, majority of Kosovars (exclude Ashkalis) do not differ from Albanians from Malesia e Madhe.

On average everyone differs. More importantly, Coon (who people are using to base this) found that northern Albanian tribes dropped in height significantly once leaving Malesia a madha. In just small distances.

When it comes to customs or traditions, an old school Montenegrin would feel right at home in central Drenica, and he would be called a primitive in Serbia. This was very quite visible during their colonization of Kosova, where even the old Slavs of Kosova grouped them with the "Shiptar".

Eh, no he wouldn't be. I never heard any Serbs call a Montenegrin a "Shiptar" in my life. You just made that up. As to traditions, where is Krsna Slava in Drenica

When it comes to what are they genetically, then there is no doubt that the Brad Clans are a mere extension of the Albo Clans that mixed with the Slavs and Vlahs that wondered up in the mountains after the Ottoman arrival.

Maybe no doubt in your mind. But in my mind there is no doubt they are Serbian clans who in isolated cases mixed with neighboring Albanian clans. So who is right? So far MLDP is not on your side

[Skerdilaid]

On average everyone differs. More importantly, Coon (who people are using to base this) found that northern Albanian tribes dropped in height significantly once leaving Malesia a madha. In just small distances.



Eh, no he wouldn't be. I never heard any Serbs call a Montenegrin a "Shiptar" in my life. You just made that up. As to traditions, where is Krsna Slava in Drenica




Maybe no doubt in your mind. But in my mind there is no doubt they are Serbian clans who in isolated cases mixed with neighboring Albanian clans. So who is right? So far MLDP is not on your side

Coon mentions that the Dukagjini are the strongest and the most well build in all of Malesia, but yes regions differ in height, and heading towards Mirdita they do get shorter on average, but descending down into the Dukagjini plains and Kosova they don't differ in height.

Read some of the early Serbs that wrote regarding this very thing, there is countless of material written by Serbs in 1900s. Even Bato Tomasevic is a good reference. Krsna Slava meant nothing to a tribal Montenegrin back in the day.


Open your mind a bit, and show me a similar group of Slavs to them and their traditions

[Stefan_Dusan]

Read some of the early Serbs that wrote regarding this very thing, there is counties of material written by Serbs in 1900s. Even Bato Tomasevic is a good reference. Krsna Slava meant nothing to a tribal Montenegrin back in the day.

Actually Krsna Slava is how tribal Montenegrins trace their kinship and very important to them. Only now, after communism, is Krsna Slava something obsolete or not really practiced or practiced to some semi-extent. In addition Krsna Slava is only practiced by Serbs and Montenegrins. Macedonians don't, Bulgarians don't, Croatians don't. There is a famous saying, wherever one has family slava, one finds a Serb.

As to Bato Tomasevic, what did he say to support your claims? Put it here? Tomasevci are an old serb family in kosovo and montenegro.

Open your mind a bit, and show me a similar group of Slavs to them and their traditions

Very easy Serbs.

Everything from style of clothing, to Krsna Slava, to gusle, to wolf, to their epic songs connect them more to even Croatian Serbs than they do to much nearer Albanians in Malesia a madha.

[Leopard]

@stefan,solin

Will you show me some actual scientific work which uses atdna for tracking migrations and assimilations?

[Skerdilaid]

=Stefan_Dusan;2407628]Actually Krsna Slava is how tribal Montenegrins trace their kinship and very important to them. Only now, after communism, is Krsna Slava something obsolete or not really practiced or practiced to some semi-extent. In addition Krsna Slava is only practiced by Serbs and Montenegrins. Macedonians don't, Bulgarians don't, Croatians don't. There is a famous saying, wherever one has family slava, one finds a Serb.

As to Bato Tomasevic, what did he say to support your claims? Put it here? Tomasevci are an old serb family in kosovo and montenegro.

Could not find the book in the web, I think you have to buy it: http://www.goodreads.com/author/show...Bato_Tomasevic
Again, having some orthodox traditions of celebrating Slava and such did not mean much to the Brda Clans, as I explained. They were Catholic until about 1600s, Kuci for example. Slava could have come with the Serbs that came up on the mountains and mingled with the locals, basic logic man. Tomasevici are not an old Serb family from Kosova, they are Kuci Clan from Montenegro that came as colonizer in 1900s in Kosova, specifically in Mitrovica. Guess what, they don't deny Albo roots either, the Tomasivci

Very easy Serbs.

Everything from style of clothing, to Krsna Slava, to gusle, to wolf, to their epic songs connect them more to even Croatian Serbs than they do to much nearer Albanians in Malesia a madha.

Yugoslavia has changed the demographics and the core culture of the Slavs of the Yugo, in 1900s Montenegrin's were almost identical to the Albos in every day life and the traditions they practiced, such as the Kanun, which Serbs in general were the opposite of what the Montenegrin's actually were.

Why the denial man? Like Hrulj in the other thread was willing to admint that the name Gjin is actually the Trukish loan that means devil, while totally putting aside the countless of sources that confirm, that the name was used by Albanians prior to Ottoman arrival in the Balkans.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Again, having some orthodox traditions of celebrating Slava and such did not mean much to the Brda Clans, as I explained. They were Catholic until about 1600s, Kuci for example. Slava could have come with the Serbs that came up on the mountains and mingled with the locals, basic logic man. Tomasevici are not an old Serb family from Kosova, they are Kuci Clan from Montenegro that came as colonizer in 1900s in Kosova, specifically in Mitrovica.

Slava is not an Orthodox tradition as you can't find it among any other Orthodox people. It's a Serbian Orthodox tradition. As to this tiring debate, we had it before and before and before. No Kuci was originally Orthodox, as recorded in Montenegro itself. If you don't want to believe this fine, but don't keep repeating they were Catholic as if your telling me something new. I heard you, and it's wrong. These people trace their ancestry very well and they trace it to Serbians Orthodox.

Why the denial man? Like Hrulj in the other thread was willing to admint that the name Gjin is actually the Trukish loan that means devil, while totally putting aside the countless of sources that confirm that the name was used by Albanians prior to Ottoman arrival in the Balkans.

Gjin is an Albanian name, it has little to no relationship to Djin. I saw the thread, and didn't bother responding to it. Djin = evil spirits and it's almost exclusively a Serbian name, i.e not Bosniak or Albanian. See Zoran Djindjic. The reason why Serbs took that name was when they became rebels and decided to terrorize turks other Muslims. A common, non Serbian example, is Count Dracul and his son, Dracula who named themselves after dragons because of terrorizing Turks. Another related word is Dzhin, like Haris Dzhinovic that Hrulj introduced (as slight of hand to replace Djinovic since he can't find a Bosniak with this name) also asian load word meaning giant. But here it's taken as descriptor and not title.

Anyways the Albanian guy from Ulcinj, who claims his name Gjinaj was modified to Djinovic, maybe he's right and that's true. But maybe he's just making it up. He looks more like a Serbian to me than Albanian (at least going by stereotypes) though that doesn't mean much. But anyways it's like me suddenly wanting to be Albanian and saying my name Progoni was changed to Progovac.

No such denial, all Serbian clans trace their ancestry well and they trace it to Serbian Orthodox founders. It's Albanians trying to invent fiction here. Like the old/new Kuci debate we had.

[Skerdilaid]

Slava is not an Orthodox tradition as you can't find it among any other Orthodox people. It's a Serbian Orthodox tradition. As to this tiring debate, we had it before and before and before. No Kuci was originally Orthodox, as recorded in Montenegro itself. If you don't want to believe this fine, but don't keep repeating they were Catholic as if your telling me something new. I heard you, and it's wrong. These people trace their ancestry very well and they trace it to Serbians Orthodox.



Gjin is an Albanian name, it has little to no relationship to Djin. I saw the thread, and didn't bother responding to it. Djin = evil spirits and it's almost exclusively a Serbian name, i.e not Bosniak or Albanian. See Zoran Djindjic. The reason why Serbs took that name was when they became rebels and decided to terrorize turks other Muslims. A common, non Serbian example, is Count Dracul and his son, Dracula who named themselves after dragons because of terrorizing Turks. Another related word is Dzhin, like Haris Dzhinovic that Hrulj introduced (as slight of hand to replace Djinovic since he can't find a Bosniak with this name) also asian load word meaning giant. But here it's taken as descriptor and not title.

Anyways the Albanian guy from Ulcinj, who claims his name Gjinaj was modified to Djinovic, maybe he's right and that's true. But maybe he's just making it up. He looks more like a Serbian to me than Albanian (at least going by stereotypes) though that doesn't mean much. But anyways it's like me suddenly wanting to be Albanian and saying my name Progoni was changed to Progovac.

No such denial, all Serbian clans trace their ancestry well and they trace it to Serbian Orthodox founders. It's Albanians trying to invent fiction ere. Like the old/new Kuci debate we had.

The dude is Albanian, and his name was written by Serbs in Yugoslavia, so it's exactly as the Albo Gjin but written in the Serbian version. Your DJ, is the equivalent of our GJ. There are countless of examples where the Yugoslav officials wrote our last names how it sounded to them, and not how we actually write them and they even added IC to them too. For example the Kuka last name in Drenica, were written as Kukici. They have modified it now though to Kuka. Prenaj, were written down as Prenici and etc..

We are not inventing fiction man, but Kuci Clan is larger among Albos then Serbs today, and they were culturally exactly like us, the Serbs portion, so what do you make out of this?

[Stefan_Dusan]

The dude is Albanian, and his name was written by Serbs in Yugoslavia, so it's exactly as the Albo Gjin but written in the Serbian version. Your DJ, is the equivalent of our GJ. There are countless of examples where the Yugoslav officials wrote our last names how it sounded to them, and not how we actually write them and they even added IC to them too. For example the Kuka last name in Drenica, were written as Kukici. They have modified it now though to Kuka. Prenaj, were written down as Prenici and etc..

I don't know about his individual case but I do know Djin has little to nothing to do with Gjin. There is a reason it's almost exclusively found among Orthodox Serbs and not Muslim Serbs and it's because a title Serbs took when they began terrorizing Turks.

We are not inventing fiction man, but Kuci Clan is larger among Albos then Serbs today, and they were culturally exactly like us, the Serbs portion, so what do you make out of this?

At least in Montenegro it's overwhelmingly Serbian Orthodox. I do not know much about the clan in northern Albania or Kosovo or how authentic members they are of Kuci or not.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Anyways, this is posted by Vukodav:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...-in-Montenegro

Montenegrins 7.4
Serbs 13.2
Bosniaks/Muslims 25.1
Albanians 39.4
Croats 35.6
Roma 46.4
Americans 31.5
French 29.9
Russians 30.2
Germans 30.1
English 28.6
Italians 29.2

You can think smaller the number, the more the groups mix, the more similar they are culturally. Etc. Montenegro is included as control group. As obvious, Serbians are their, by far, closest grouping. Albanians are the farthest just before gypsys and after Croats, Bosniaks (Muslims!), Americans, and Russians.

Genetically I've never seen Montenegrins plot away from other South Slavs, specifically Serbs, for Albanians in either Albania or Kosovo. So Montenegrins are south slavs, say Serbs, with some Albanian admixture in isolated case. Not Albanians with some south slav admixture, as being presented on apricity.

So where is this evidence?

[Skerdilaid]

Anyways, this is posted by Vukodav:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...-in-Montenegro



You can think smaller the number, the more the groups mix, the more similar they are culturally. Etc. Montenegro is included as control group. As obvious, Serbians are their, by far, closest grouping. Albanians are the farthest just before gypsys and after Croats, Bosniaks (Muslims!), Americans, and Russians.

Genetically I've never seen Montenegrins plot away from other South Slavs, specifically Serbs, for Albanians in either Albania or Kosovo. So Montenegrins are south slavs, say Serbs, with some Albanian admixture in isolated case. Not Albanians with some south slav admixture, as being presented on apricity.

So where is this evidence?

Animosity between Montes and Albos started when the Brda Clans joined Vladika, and this is exactly around 1700s. So, what today's Montes think about Albos we all know, but I bet if Yugoslavia did not play it's role in ridiculing Albos then their attitude would have been quite different.


If you say so, then why were they culturally Albanian rather then Serbs/Slavs?