Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

[Lahtari]

It is also the closest option to the natural human condition, i.e. eating what is available in the area (fish near the sea, animals in the steppes, plants where there is fertile soil, etc.)

Does this mean I can eat freshly hunted deer meat and muikku's (whatever those are called, the small fish you can troll () from the lakelands of eastern Finland..)? And blini/pelmeni (because that's just around the border)? I'll be one damn happy hippie.

It takes 5,000 gallons of water to produce 1 pound of meat. That’s a measurable difference. A vegan diet requires....

Mmm... One pound of meat...

[Lahtari]

A/C (electricity produciton also involves water)

Hey, hands off my daily AC/DC!




*Hiiiiiiiiiigghway to Hell!!!*

[Chris]

“I'm a selfish b!tch - and simply can not find it in me to deny myself strong bones and health while those around me indulge in such frivolities AND eat all the meat/dairy they want!”

Countries that consume less dairy have less osteoporosis.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/chronicl...eoporosis.html

“But you are fooling yourself if you think you are making any measurable difference considering the background against which you live your life. The only real difference you're making is in your head.”

You’re just nay saying at me That’s just the collective apathy articles, though humorous, like the one linked above are striving for. Even if you were correct that I am a drop in the bucket, at least it‘s a drop.

I’m selfish too btw. I like material goods and shiny things.

[Fortis in Arduis]

I am a lacto-vegetarian who tries not to eat onion, garlic etc. (allium family), mushrooms, and the nightshade family.

There is nothing in the religious books that tell me that I should not eat animals and those particular foods because it is wasteful or cruel, the arguments state that avoiding those foods will help me maintain a clear mind for yoga.

I take clarified butter (ghee) to help with my digestion and I take yoghurt and milk, and freshly made cheese in moderation, and with restrictions.

For example, I would not mix milk and salt, and there are many other rules besides. I would boil milk with spices to make it more digestible.

The health of the body and mind comes first, and I do not like these moral arguments against eating meat.

However, I must say that eating arthropods does gives me the ooglies.

I take allium family and mushrooms sometimes and chocolate and coffee too, and egg sometimes, but I never stoop as low as fish and meat.

There is an 'eww' factor involved, rather than a moral factor for me, but I notice the difference in clarity of mind.

If I go out to restaurants eating willy-nilly everything goes to pot!

Vegan cuisine loaded with onion, garlic and mushrooms, coffee, tea and chocolate, and chilli, potato and tomato is of no interest to me whatsoever.

EDIT: I recognise that plants have consciousness, but that they also have a lesser consciousness than most animals.

[nisse]

Countries that consume less dairy have less osteoporosis.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/chronicl...eoporosis.html

Could be true...or not...these things change faster than the seasons...

One thing doesn't - tradition. I'll stick to the wisdom of my ancestors who ate everything in good measure, which works fine as far as I've seen first-hand.

You’re just nay saying at me That’s just the collective apathy articles, though humorous, like the one linked above are striving for. Even if you were correct that I am a drop in the bucket, at least it‘s a drop.

I’m selfish too btw. I like material goods and shiny things.

...and that's precisely why I dislike "vocal" vegans. Either be dedicated to it and do *everything* you can to "save the planet" (i.e. cnaturalist commune), or shut it like the rest of us.

I for one, am not materialistic, try to buy as little as I can, recycle, all that jazz - I'm still a drop in the bucket though, and I don't go preaching to people to save/how I'm saving the earth because I fully understand and appreciate that despite all my efforts I am doing a lot more harm than good, simply by being part of this society.

[Chris]

“...these things change faster than the seasons…”

As Asians adapt our diet they'll acquire more chronic and degenerative diseases, and even more animals will suffer.

“...and that's precisely why I dislike "vocal" vegans. Either be dedicated to it and do *everything* you can to "save the planet" (i.e. naturalist commune), or shut it like the rest of us.”

I haven‘t preached at anyone. You’re so derogatory to me mainly because I cited some stats and mentioned babies calves suffering. Sorry if I sounded that way---I'm a "cold writer." Sound harsh when I'm not trying to.

You tell me to “shut up” if I don’t go live on a commune or use a computer, yet I’m sure you don’t Teetotal everything you do, but you express your opinion on those matters. I bet you’re quite “vocal” about it too.

[nisse]

As Asians adapt our diet they'll acquire more chronic and degenerative diseases, and even more animals will suffer.

Quite possibly so, since Western diet is not always more nutritious, despite having every opportunity to be so.
...as for suffering animals - most were bred to suffer and die to keep us happy and fed.

I haven‘t preached at anyone. You’re so derogatory to me mainly because I cited some stats and mentioned babies calves suffering. Sorry if I sounded that way---I'm a "cold writer." Sound harsh when I'm not trying to.

Oh no? So the images of evil media trying to make you feel helpless, crying calves, humanity being some unnatural uber-predator with nightmareish farming methods, and your own sadness at being the only vegan in the thread are all stone cold arguments? Clearly we have very different ideas of what that means.

If you had stuck to citing stats about water usage, etc. (i.e. were actually a logical, "cold" writer) instead of making some emotional appeal, my attitude towards your posts would have been very different.

You tell me to “shut up” if I don’t go live on a commune or use a computer, yet I’m sure you don’t Teetotal everything you do, but you express your opinion on those matters. I bet you’re quite “vocal” about it too.

Sure I don't teetotal everything I do, but I don't talk about it often, and when I do, I qualify all my statements as appropriate and don't use "we" when I mean "me". That's what I was refering to. If you want to talk about *your* personal choice and why *you* think it's right - sure, but don't presume that your diet gives you the moral authority to be telling *me* what is and isn't the same as a crying calf and what the media is trying to do....especially when you don't make an argument for either statement but just present them as some absolute truths (very preachy).

[Klärchen]

I don't believe in good and evil anyway

In my opinion, suffering is the cause for "evil". No one will do any harm to anybody else if he feels peaceful and loving in himself; our desires cause pain to ourselves and to others as well.

This world is a world of contrasts and duality – we cannot imagine any "good" without comparing it to something "evil". There is no day without the night and no high without the low. But unlike the animals, human beings are able to discern and to realize that they are doing harm to others when they hurt or kill them. There is consciousness in every form of life – even the stones have some sort of life in them – but the consciousness is much lower in plants than it is in animals, esp. in the higher developed ones. And unfortunately, we have to nourish on something, so if there is some feeling and empathy in us, we should not discriminate between animals that one can eat and animals that one should not eat (like our pet dogs or cats), but we should spare all of them. Buying meat in some shop is easy, but who of you would be capable of killing himself the animal that he wants to eat?

[Chris]

“…humanity being some unnatural uber-predator…”

You’re projecting. I never said that. I said we outnumber our prey.

“…your diet gives you the moral authority to be telling *me* what is and isn't the same as a crying calf…”

Before I was a vegan, I could see how alike a baby cow crying for it’s mom, and a human infant crying for it’s mom are. It’s not preachy. Maybe rhetorical, since I thought *we* would feel an affinity with the infant.

“…as for suffering animals - most were bred to suffer and die to keep us happy and fed.”

That’s just glib. That’s how slavery was defended.

[nisse]

In my opinion, suffering is the cause for "evil". No one will do any harm to anybody else if he feels peaceful and loving in himself; our desires cause pain to ourselves and to others as well.

You mean if he/she's doped up? You're probably right.

This world is a world of contrasts and duality – we cannot imagine any "good" without comparing it to something "evil". There is no day without the night and no high without the low.

Meaningless, and what's worse, false, comparisons. Day and night are two extremes of solar light intensity. Where there are no such extremes there is polar day/polar night. High and low are positions within the earth gravitational field corresponding to (obejectively) higher or lower potantial energy. Good and evil are abstract concepts in our heads that can be summed up by no objective measure, rest on no facts and can be *completely* internal (think of crazy people)

But unlike the animals, human beings are able to discern and to realize that they are doing harm to others when they hurt or kill them.

Is that why we as a society refuse euthanesia? Because "we" know better than the sufferer whether or not death is good/bad?

There is consciousness in every form of life – even the stones have some sort of life in them – but the consciousness is much lower in plants than it is in animals, esp. in the higher developed ones.

Well there's a fact I was not aware of. Care to cite something on that?

And unfortunately, we have to nourish on something, so if there is some feeling and empathy in us, we should not discriminate between animals that one can eat and animals that one should not eat (like our pet dogs or cats), but we should spare all of them.

And why not? We have made that distinction for centuries. Farming (including animals) is part of our culture (i.e. the thing we are trying to preserve)

Buying meat in some shop is easy, but who of you would be capable of killing himself the animal that he wants to eat?

No one said it's easy. It's a skill, as any other..and if there were no stores around, most of us would probably be able to kill our dinner, as we were before . Pretty much everyone I know who was brought up on a farm has no problem with killing animals for food, meanwhile being the urban dweller that I am, I can barely bring myself to touch uncooked meat.