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Thread: On Turkey and the Turks

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    Bas the Bad Ass Equinox's Avatar
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    Default On Turkey and the Turks

    Hello,

    Inspired by this thread I would like to create a thread about the genetic and cultural assimilation of people from Turkey into European lands and gene-pools.

    I am starting a thread about this, but it does not follow that I am a proponent of multiracial relationships or believe that Turks are necessarily European.

    This is about addressing an issue that I do not believe has been addressed before. Obviously it is something that can very easily degenerate into a flame-war. Thus I would appreciate it is people posted sources, asked reasonable questions and left counter-productive statements and opinions to themselves.

    If anyone has found any studies on the genetic make-up of the average Turk, or inhabitant of Turkey, it would be grand if you could post them.

    There seems to be a lot of ambiguity surrounding what constitutes a "Turk". For example.



    Regards,
    Equinox

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    Indo, you're-a-peein! The Khagan's Avatar
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    I've always wondered, me being an Indo-European fetishist, how much of the genetic legacy was carried over from the Hittites into modern Turks. I've noticed upon looking at anthropological portraits of Turkish people (Blame stormfront and google for that one) that more easterly Turks, notably ones around Ankara* and farther east, are lighter on average. Has always made me curious of the population genetics of Anatolia as a whole what with the waves of immigrants, invasions and whatnot. Iranic peoples (Kurds, Persian Empire) have historically and contemporaneously occupied Eastern areas of the region.

    According to most, the population of Anatolia is pretty indigenous, going back a couple thousand years at least. Only language being enforced by a dominant minority and conquering force.

    *Ankara has Hittite, Roman, Persian and Celtic history.

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    You mean this?



    Memories only.

    There's nothing celtic or european there anymore. Physical traces you may find many. Spiritual and cultural traces? maybe if you go to some ruins, shut senses and do a time warp by yourself.

    It's an interesting exercise to detect european look-alikes in Turkey or even in Iran: you'll certainly find many which look undoubtely euro. But why to do so? They all live in a culture completely alien to us. And it's not as they are enslaved, they are really part of it.

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    Indo, you're-a-peein! The Khagan's Avatar
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    Uh, people of Iranic and Anatolian origin are wholly caucasoid and far more European looking than their Arab neighbors. Hell, the major Y Haplogroup in Turkey is R1b.

    Edit: and aside from Iran, Turks certainly do not live in a culture so far off from Europe, ever since Ataturk's reforms, Turkey has been pretty Western, especially relative to what surrounds it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arngrim View Post
    Uh, people of Iranic and Anatolian origin are wholly caucasoid and far more European looking than their Arab neighbors. Hell, the major Y Haplogroup in Turkey is R1b.
    But, how can that be resourceful for us?

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    Progressive Collectivist Agrippa's Avatar
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    The truth is simple: Turkey is a big country and the Turkish people a mixed bunch.

    There are still a lot of rather European and a lot very progressive racial forms in Turkey and there are some basic principles to consider:

    - The real Turkic genetic influence, the influence from the Asiatic steppe people and Mongoloid blood in particular, is rather small.

    - The great majority of todays Turks being descendents of pre-Turkic people

    - There is and always was a West-East gradient, the European Turks (autochthonous) and those from Western Anatolia, especially along the coastline in the South West, being much more European in racial character, than those from Central Anatolia or further East.

    - In ancient times the whole region was more European Europid, but that changed with the climate and racial change (Mediterranid -> Anadolid-Alpinoid in the Anatolian highlands which became dryer), as well as the influx of other people.

    - There seems to be also a social stratification, with those from the higher classes being more often closer to Europeans and of course progressive than the average, yet the Anatolian lower classes.

    - In the East live Kurds, these Kurds belong in their core group to a very progressive racial form, the Iranid type with Nordoid influences, yet the "village-Kurds" which dont descent all from the free herder-warrior Kurds, are a mixed bunch like the Anatolian Turks. In any case, even the progressive-harmonious Iranids are no Europeans, they represent a foreign racial form, one of quality, but still.


    The problem with those having an European racial phenotype is, besides their ethnocultural identity and religious confession, that they often have recessive traits of foreign character. So quite often, if looking at the rest of the family, they show the foreign traits, even if the individual doesnt.

    But again, especially in European Turkey, former Thracia and Western coastal Turkey, as well as parts of Istanbul etc., one can find a lot of basically European phenotypes - racial forms.

    I might also add, that the vast majority of Turks which migrated to Germany, Austria, Switzerland etc, obviously doesnt belong to those Turks I mean, but are mostly lower level Anatolian Turks. So what the average Central European sees of Turks in his own country, is not just foreign, its also not the best Turkey has to offer, but quite often the opposite, by education, culture, religious beliefs, race, intelligence etc.

    Thats one of the reasons why many Turks of the better sort look down upon those which live in varioius European countries, at least the average representatives.

    Most of the higher level Turks come as students, scientists or businessmen to Europe I might add, and they are not too many so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arngrim View Post
    Uh, people of Iranic and Anatolian origin are wholly caucasoid and far more European looking than their Arab neighbors. Hell, the major Y Haplogroup in Turkey is R1b.

    Edit: and aside from Iran, Turks certainly do not live in a culture so far off from Europe, ever since Ataturk's reforms, Turkey has been pretty Western, especially relative to what surrounds it.
    Seeing how you're an American it would make sense you'd spout this much ignorance. Have you ever heard of a band called the Bashi-Bazouks? They were irregular soldiers who served under the Sultan. They became so famous because one of the biggest massacres perpetrated by the Turks were done by the Bashi-Bazouks who slaughtered more than 15,000 Bulgarians.
    Schuyler's group spent three weeks visiting Batak and other villages where massacres had taken place. Schuyler's official report, published in November 1876, said that fifty-eight villages in Bulgaria had been destroyed, five monasteries demolished, and fifteen thousand people in all massacred. The report was reprinted as a booklet and widely circulated in Europe
    Does that sounds like what Europeans would do? I don't think so. Your fetish with Turks disgusts me, and you considering them European disgusts me even further.

    Here is a famous painting which is a VERY good representative of what the Bashi-bazouk scum did.


    Now, regarding to the genetics of Turks, no they are not genetically Europeans. Sure, some of them may have some European genes but having some European genes does not qualify them to be considered European otherwise we might as well consider halfbreed blacks in America who possess partly European ancestry thanks to race-mixing as European, eh?

    Turkey
    1
    4
    0.5
    7.5
    15
    11
    21
    12.5
    11
    2
    2
    4

    From eupedia.com, and they only categorize European Y-dna but I'll bet your rear that they have a whole lot of Asiatic Y-dna not listed on this website. As you can see from the chart above they have a lot of "Anatolian" (J2 or light green), and Arabic, Semitic genes (J1 or dark green). The predominance of Arabic genes within them is just enough to disqualify them. Not to mention the whole lot of Asiatic genes within them from their Seljuk, Ottoman ancestors have already disqualified them. And you might have noticed that they have a lot of everything meaning they are mongrels compared an average European country.

    Let's compare them to France and Bulgaria.


    Bulgaria
    3
    33
    1
    14
    18
    1
    17
    0
    12
    1
    0
    0


    France
    9.5
    3
    4
    2.5
    61
    5
    7
    0
    7
    1
    0
    0


    As you might have noticed, the Y-dna within both countries are more concentrated. The Bulgarians have a lot of Danubian (I2a or dark blue), and Celtic (R1b or red), and Slavic (R1a or orange). Meanwhile France has a lot of Nordic (I or teal), and Celtic (R1b or red).

    What the average Turk looks like, not Turkificied Europeans of the Janissary-era.



    Plus just look at the flag of Turkey, doesn't that just SCREAM non-European? The crescent is a symbol of Islam, I just don't get it sometimes, why would Europeans like you accept them, they are the ANTITHESIS of everything European.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugoslav View Post
    Seeing how you're an American it would make sense you'd spout this much ignorance. Have you ever heard of a band called the Bashi-Bazouks? They were irregular soldiers who served under the Sultan. They became so famous because one of the biggest massacres perpetrated by the Turks were done by the Bashi-Bazookas who slaughtered more than 15,000 Bulgarians.
    Does that sounds like what Europeans would do? I don't think so. Your fetish with Turks disgusts me, and you considering them European disgusts me even further.

    Here is a famous painting which is a VERY good representative of what the Bashi-bazouk scum did.


    Now, regarding to the genetics of Turks, no they are not genetically Europeans. Sure, some of them may have some European genes but having some European genes does not qualify them to be considered European otherwise we might as well consider halfbreed blacks in America who possess partly European ancestry thanks to race-mixing as European, eh?

    Turkey
    1
    4
    0.5
    7.5
    15
    11
    21
    12.5
    11
    2
    2
    4

    From eupedia.com, and they only categorize European Y-dna but I'll bet your rear that they have a whole lot of Asiatic Y-dna not listed on this website. As you can see from the chart above they have a lot of "Anatolian" (J2 or light green), and Arabic, Semitic genes (J1 or dark green). The predominance of Arabic genes within them is just enough to disqualify them. Not to mention the whole lot of Asiatic genes within them from their Seljuk, Ottoman ancestors have already disqualified them. And you might have noticed that they have a lot of everything meaning they are mongrels compared an average European country.

    Let's compare them to France and Bulgaria.


    Bulgaria
    3
    33
    1
    14
    18
    1
    17
    0
    12
    1
    0
    0


    France
    9.5
    3
    4
    2.5
    61
    5
    7
    0
    7
    1
    0
    0


    As you might have noticed, the Y-dna within both countries are more concentrated. The Bulgarians have a lot of Danubian (I2a or dark blue), and Celtic (R1b or red), and Slavic (R1a or orange). Meanwhile France has a lot of Nordic (I or teal), and Celtic (R1b or red).

    What the average Turk looks like, not Turkificied Europeans of the Janissary-era.



    Plus just look at the flag of Turkey, doesn't that just SCREAM non-European? The crescent is a symbol of Islam, I just don't get it sometimes, why would Europeans like you accept them, they are the ANTITHESIS of everything European.

    Haha, such a cop out, because being American is a prerequisite for ignorance, right?

    Actually yes, slaughtering 15,000 people sounds very European. I'd hate to break this to you man, but people kill people, doesn't make the Turks any less Europid or Western for it. Germans slaughtered millions of people as well as fellow Europeans, not to mention the fiasco that was the Bosnian War, which South Slavs killed other South Slavs. Little close to home eh? Europe has a history written in blood of other Europeans and peoples.

    I never said the Turks as a whole were European, their phenotype is Europid, their history is intrinsically tied with the European continent and for a majority muslim country, they are very western and secular. I used genetics to back up my claim, however, genetics matter very little. And no, they don't have "hidden" asiatic genes. The population is pretty indigenous.

    You've got an obvious bias, exemplified by what you said about their flag. That's entirely subjective, and why does that even matter? They're muslim, you wanna go chastise some Balkan muslims while you're at it too?

    Also, I'm not European... I'm American.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arngrim View Post
    Haha, such a cop out, because being American is a prerequisite for ignorance, right?
    Considering how your recent post is seething with ignorance. I'd say yes.
    Actually yes, slaughtering 15,000 people sounds very European. I'd hate to break this to you man, but people kill people
    Sure, people kill people but you're a twat because you don't know what the Bashi-Bazouks are. Go do some research. Maybe start at the kindergarten level, like wikipedia.

    To think Turks "Europid", HAHAHA. You're mentally damaged.



    You've got an obvious bias, exemplified by what you said about their flag.
    You're stupid, their flag is who they are.
    That's entirely subjective, and why does that even matter? They're muslim, you wanna go chastise some Balkan muslims while you're at it too?
    Islam is THE antithesis of everything we believe in. Islam is a multicultural religion. Please go kill yourself.
    Also, I'm not European... I'm American.
    Sure, you're American by nationality but ethnically European although I have doubts that you are judging how pro-Turk you are.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugoslav View Post
    Considering how your recent post is seething with ignorance. I'd say yes.
    Sure, people kill people but you're a twat because you don't know what the Bashi-Bazouks are. Go do some research. Maybe start at the kindergarten level, like wikipedia.

    To think Turks "Europid", HAHAHA. You're mentally damaged.



    You're stupid, their flag is who they are.
    Islam is THE antithesis of everything we believe in. Islam is a multicultural religion. Please go kill yourself.
    Sure, you're American by nationality but ethnically European although I have doubts that you are judging how pro-Turk you are.
    I'm not pro-Turk, nothing that I've stated has any connotations of me being pro-Turk. I have no feelings, negative or positive towards Turkish people. However, I will give them the benefit of the doubt for being undeniably Western in juxtaposition to their other Muslim neighbors.

    Who's we? And what do "we" believe in?

    All I got from that wikipedia article was that they were somewhat like hired mercenaries, what's so horrible about that?

    And





    Yep, totally NOT Europid/Caucasian. The population is extremely varied and diverse, but almost all of them fit under the Caucasoid/Europid phenotype.

    Your patronizing and condescending comments add nothing to your argument and truly show your zealous bias going as far to post my picture on here and say that someone of primarily Irish and Swedish extraction to be a Turkish mongrel. I'd consider actually giving me something substantial to work with here, all it does is make you look foolish and unintelligent.

    and how do I look Turkish?

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