Óðinn and Shamanism

[Vargtand]

Edit: Thread split from here

I've known of some of Odin's various names and meanings, but it's an interesting list. From a Shamanic perspective he could easily be summoned for a specific purpose - as I'm sure he is. Has anyone applied this kind of summoning to their rites, and if so, what was the purpose, along with the end result? I'm not meaning to go off-topic but I'm curious. As a Shaman, I work along those lines.

Just one thing though.. Shamanism was never part of Asatro, at least not to my knowledge; I know that the Sami had lots of shamanism though.

[Psychonaut]

Just one thing though.. Shamanism was never part of Asatro, at least not to my knowledge; I know that the Sami had lots of shamanism though.

That Odin was originally a shamanic deity is pretty well established in academia. There's an interesting article in the first issue of the Journal of Germanic Folklore and Mythology that I posted here that deals with his origins. Also, if you can get a copy of Shamanism by Mircea Eliade, he provides probably the best sourced argument in favor of that position.

EDIT: Here's another great essay Shamanism and the Image of the Teutonic Deity Óðinn by Asbjørn Jøn.

[Brynhild]

Just one thing though.. Shamanism was never part of Asatro, at least not to my knowledge; I know that the Sami had lots of shamanism though.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I am of the understanding that Odin is a Shaman. The word Shaman itself is probably an incorrect one to use to start with, but that is one I'm used to.

Odin would most certainly have been a teacher gifted with site, who journeyed into the underworld - hence the hanging from Yggdrasil for 9 days. It is usually perceived as a Shamanic journey. His reward was the runes, along with the knowledge from his underworld journeys.

[Vargtand]

That Odin was originally a shamanic deity is pretty well established in academia. There's an interesting article in the first issue of the Journal of Germanic Folklore and Mythology that I posted here that deals with his origins. Also, if you can get a copy of Shamanism by Mircea Eliade, he provides probably the best sourced argument in favor of that position.

Well, that the origence that he was a shamanistic god, does not directly make it so that in Asatro shamanism would be utilised.
Oden was the god of Sejd. That's what I know it from at least. But I hate to admit I am not into magic being a man after all.

But one might call it shamanism though I think it would be more proper to call it what it was called and not what historians call it.

I shall check it out.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I am of the understanding that Odin is a Shaman. The word Shaman itself is probably an incorrect one to use to start with, but that is one I'm used to.

Odin would most certainly have been a teacher gifted with site, who journeyed into the underworld - hence the hanging from Yggdrasil for 9 days. It is usually perceived as a Shamanic journey. His reward was the runes, along with the knowledge from his underworld journeys.

He was thought magic by freja though not by reciving the runes.


Alright, I have to say I am not to familiar with shamanism to begin with but what exactly does hanging from a tree upside down, dying and then be resurrected have to do specifically with shamanism?
I mean nothing ill with the question I am curios, self enlighten trough hardship yes, a struggle for inner peace perhaps, a sort of masochistic form of meditation at worst

[Brynhild]

Well, that the origence that he was a shamanistic god, does not directly make it so that in Asatro shamanism would be utilised.
Oden was the god of Sejd. That's what I know it from at least. But I hate to admit I am not into magic being a man after all.

But one might call it shamanism though I think it would be more proper to call it what it was called and not what historians call it.

I shall check it out.

Aww, don't want to tap into your feminine side? Tsk Tsk
Sidr and Shamanism are one and the same, and practical magic serves a great purpose - but then again, I'm a woman after all

[Psychonaut]

Oden was the god of Sejd. That's what I know it from at least. But I hate to admit I am not into magic being a man after all.

Actually, Óðinn learned seið from Frejya, since it was thought by the Norse to be the domain of women. However, Rune magic, which seems to have been male dominated, was certainly Óðinn's specialty.

But one might call it shamanism though I think it would be more proper to call it what it was called and not what historians call it.

Shamanism and seið are not exactly the same thing. Seið and the Runes both developed from shamanism, but are not shamanism per se. Perhaps it would be more correct to call Wōđanaz a strictly shamanic deity, whereas Óðinn was a magician deity influenced by old Germanic shamanism.

Alright, I have to say I am not to familiar with shamanism to begin with but what exactly does hanging from a tree upside down, dying and then be resurrected have to do specifically with shamanism?

Tree based initiation rites seem to have been a universal practice for shamans in most of Neolithic Europe and North Asia. They're still practiced by a handful of Siberian tribes. The Hangagoð's connection to Yggdrasil (Ygg's steed) certainly show his shamanic roots.

[Vargtand]

Actually, Óðinn learned seið from Frejya, since it was thought by the Norse to be the domain of women. However, Rune magic, which seems to have been male dominated, was certainly Óðinn's specialty.

Yeah that was what I wrote he was thought magic (aka sejd) by freja, He was how ever seen as the formost sejdare, so aparently he surpassed his teacher.

Are you entirely sure rune magic was dominated by men? I was led to the impression that rune magic was included into the term sejd, of course that he introduced it but after all him being a god, I don't see how we should question his motivations

Shamanism and seið are not exactly the same thing. Seið and the Runes both developed from shamanism, but are not shamanism per se. Perhaps it would be more correct to call Wōđanaz a strictly shamanic deity, whereas Óðinn was a magician deity influenced by old Germanic shamanism.

Yes I think that would be a fair compromise, though I do not doubt that in different sub-cultures of the Germanic people he had more, or less of the traits of the former god.

Tree based initiation rites seem to have been a universal practice for shamans in most of Neolithic Europe and North Asia. They're still practiced by a handful of Siberian tribes. The Hangagoð's connection to Yggdrasil (Ygg's steed) certainly show his shamanic roots.

Well who can blaim them it is a cool concept

I'm unsure [in here should be a good argument but I have not figured one out] I just get a sense that just because something is prevalent in one type of religion that the procedure is strictly belonging to that form of religious practice, seems a bit odd.

Oh well it is just a feeling I get, I’m trying to place my self in their shoes

Aww, don't want to tap into your feminine side? Tsk Tsk
Sidr and Shamanism are one and the same, and practical magic serves a great purpose - but then again, I'm a woman after all

Don't want to end up with Lokes daughter

[Psychonaut]

Are you entirely sure rune magic was dominated by men? I was led to the impression that rune magic was included into the term sejd, of course that he introduced it but after all him being a god, I don't see how we should question his motivations

None of the descriptions in the Lore that I can think of give us any examples of women doing anything with Runes. Any time females perform magic in the Lore they are usually Völvas and are performing some sort of oracular magic. I'm thinking specifically of The Saga of Erik the Red and the Völuspá .

[Vargtand]

None of the descriptions in the Lore that I can think of give us any examples of women doing anything with Runes. Any time females perform magic in the Lore they are usually Völvas and are performing some sort of oracular magic. I'm thinking specifically of The Saga of Erik the Red and the Völuspá .

Not Monty pythons Erik the red then?

I find it strange though, that runes would be tolerated by not sejd, as from what I understand the primary reasons for sejd not being accepted was pretty much for the same reasons knights hated archers, it struck from afar.. Now with rune enchantments and rune magic would not basically the same effect been reached? Or have I misunderstood the extent to which runes were considered magical?

as I can see enchantments and such things as semi acceptable, a bit like steroid use but hell anything is fair in war, except for archery if you are a rustbucket

[Psychonaut]

Not Monty pythons Erik the red then?

I find it strange though, that runes would be tolerated by not sejd, as from what I understand the primary reasons for sejd not being accepted was pretty much for the same reasons knights hated archers, it struck from afar.. Now with rune enchantments and rune magic would not basically the same effect been reached? Or have I misunderstood the extent to which runes were considered magical?

Don't forget that a lot of the Iron Age Runic inscriptions that have survived are on the blades of swords or the tips of spears that were enchanted by the Vitkis for the use of the warriors. Also, there are several instance in the Sagas (I'm thinking of Egil here) of warriors who use Runes for a variety of purposes, martial and non-martial.