Questions: Southern Cromagnoids(Berberids and peripheral types)

[Stefan]

I have a few questions on Southern Cromagnoids or what are also called Berberids.

- How much do Southern Cro-Magnoids differ from Northern Cro-Magnoids? Is it similar to the Nordid/Mediterranid differentiation or is it all genetic?

- Where did they originate as they are today? Is the phenotype representative of Iberian Ice-Age refugees? Did it originate in North Africa?

- The Berid? Are all Berids the product of Mediterranid/Southern Cro-Magnoid mixtures? I ask this because I find many representations where they just look Cro-Magnoid, although reduction seems to be working its effects on some.

- As for Alpinoids, is there a differentiation between origin? Could we split up Alpinization into two or more origins? The Alpinization of Northern Cro-Magnoids and Southern Cro-magnoids? I ask this as well, as there is a wide range it seems. Many look similar to Berids when found in the South, but others seem more Northern as well, and then there is an intermediate that just looks Central European to me.

- In their prominence how far did they spread? There seems to be remnants very far North(Paleo-Atlantid?). What culture did they spread with? Why was it that they were reduced in numbers and secluded by Mediterranids and other races? Why are they still present in such warm climates? Shouldn't they be more suitable for cold adaptation and have died out or changed by now?

- Are they exclusive to Western Europe? Is there any equivalent Eastern type?

- Can you post some textbook examples and then examples of mixtures? There doesn't seem to be many that I can find.

Again thanks for any help. up up

[Stefan]

Semi-Bump

Anyway here is what I mean by a Berid looking very Cro-magnoid yet is supposedly an intermediate between Mediterranid and Cro-Magnoid.

From SNPA:

Berid



Berberid



How is the Berberid any more Cro-Magnoid than the Berid guy? Actually it seems to be the opposite, the Berid guy looks more Cro-Magnoid derived to me, such as the heavy Brow-Ridges, the wide Nasal Index, and the pronounced zygomatics. The only area where the Berberid seems to "out cro-magnoid" him is the jaw and lower face. The Berid also seems to be reduced in comparison. I would think that is the biggest difference actually -- reduction. This seems to be most notable around the lower face. Where the Berberid has that strong jaw, the Berid seems to have lost that feature, but I wouldn't say it is because of Mediterranid admixture.

[Agrippa]

- How much do Southern Cro-Magnoids differ from Northern Cro-Magnoids? Is it similar to the Nordid/Mediterranid differentiation or is it all genetic?

Actually they are a diverse bunch of people so to say, probably the remnants or simply local variants of quite old age which survived and show great differences beside their basic similarities.

My personal impression is, that a robust, rather Palaeatlantid Cromagnoid form was among the first Europoids which settled Southern Europe and North Africa permanently and lasting in significant numbers.

From this early group, which had protomorphic traits quite often, many other branches might derive or being influenced at least.

Today there are Southern Cromagnoids which are almost indistinguishable from Dalofaelids, some are Alpinised and look similar to Central Europeans, others show a strong, coarse Palaeatlantid apperance, others a more reduced Berid one - I guess that the Berid type was once much more widespread, but became regionally Alpinised = Westalpinid and/or split-altered by mostly Mediterranid strains, which came later in the great region and/or developed regionally and spread from this region.

In any case these Palaeatlantids-Berids are the oldest stratum of significance in Western Europe and North Africa most likely. Some strains were altered, others disappeared, some survived roughly in the same form as they were or somewhat more reduced or progressive.

Berids are in my opinion therefore purely Cromagnoid, just reduced without brachycephalisation and refined facial traits - insofar not Alpinised but in some ways more primitive than Alpinids. The problem is just, that Berids as the old hunter-gatherer stratum of the more isolated and/or unfavourable areas was largely dissolved. F.e. Sardinia, where they might have been much more common in the more distant past, being nowadays and essentially Grazil- to Atlantomediterranid, so a very Mediterranid, island. The Berid strains are mostly in the inner areas and mixed. "Pure-typical" ones appear and prove the existence, but are relatively rare.

Obviously Berid is as much Mediterranid as Dalofaelid is Nordid, it depends on the definition, if you put Nordid in the narrower sense together with the Northern Cromagnid/Dalofaelid type/subtype, depending on author, you can put Mediterranid and Berid together, as some sort of regional-climatic adaptation with a long head and light or dark coloration respectively.

But otherwise Berids are definitely not Mediterranid in the classic, narrower sense, but reduced-protomorphic Cromagnids.

- As for Alpinoids, is there a differentiation between origin? Could we split up Alpinization into two or more origins? The Alpinization of Northern Cro-Magnoids and Southern Cro-magnoids? I ask this as well, as there is a wide range it seems. Many look similar to Berids when found in the South, but others seem more Northern as well, and then there is an intermediate that just looks Central European to me.

Alpinisation is a process which started among Cromagnoids, since there are different Cromagnoid strains which became Alpinised, they have different origins. Obviously its quite unlikely that most Alpinoids have more in common than a Cromagnoid base and a similar selective regime, which controlled the Alpinisation process.

Just think about the wide range and the usually limited mobility of the typical Alpinoid tillers. F.e. Westalpinid, Nordalpinoid-Borreby, Eastalpinid, which can be split again in European Eastalpinid and West Asian Eastalpinid or simply Asian Alpinoid, North African Alpinoid or Alpinised Berberids etc. So they are present among most old farmer stock people, as are the leptodolichomorphic ones - the former more sedentary, dependent, frugal tillers, the later more mobile, good organised herder-farmer-warriors usually. In a way a complementary thing and depending on the society and respective selective processes, this or that dominates, with the Taurids (with the exception of reduced Armenids) having the same role as the leptodolichomorphic Aurignacoids/Nordid-Suedeuropids, just for the higher, more mountainous areas primarily.

- In their prominence how far did they spread? There seems to be remnants very far North(Paleo-Atlantid?). What culture did they spread with? Why was it that they were reduced in numbers and secluded by Mediterranids and other races? Why are they still present in such warm climates? Shouldn't they be more suitable for cold adaptation and have died out or changed by now?

The point is, that the Cromagnoids advantage largely lost with the warm climate, but they have no real disadvantage in the sense of lower survival rate, obviously they can survive perfectly in a warm climate, why not? But the Nordid-Suedeuropid/Aurignacoid group just had NO DISADVANTAGES any longer, with the beginning warm period. So without they could outplay THEIR advantages, especially with the related cultural innovations and the new social structures which emerged.

Only the highly progressive Cromagnids could compete with them, if adapting fast culturally and probably getting some genflow from the Nordid-Suedeuropid spectrum, like it was the case with the Kurganoids, which were an expensive but highly effective human model which could compete with everyone, as long as the effectiveness paid off biologically - yet they were not highly superior or superior significantly to the more progressive Aurignacoid variants, so once they shared their warlike culture, they could be outcompeted too, which happened in the East (decrease of the Cromagnoid, increase of the Nordid-Suedeuropid).

Simply put, only the best Cromagnids can compete as a group, but then very successfully, with progressive Nordid-Suedeuropid people, but they need more energy and are even more dependent on their investment paying off, than the progressive Leptodolichomorphs are. So they survive primarily as long as the high level individual and group selection is very active and even then they have no real advantage over the leptodolichomorphs.

Thats why, sooner or later, most Cromagnoids became altered, more one sided, less progressive, reduced etc. Typically the more progressive (Dalofaelid, Dalofaelid-Nordid, robust, somewhat Cromagniform Iranid) variants survived the longest in significant numbers among warlike herder-farmers and herders - in Northern Europe and the Iranian plateau, mostly in solution, similar to the Kurganoid.

- Are they exclusive to Western Europe? Is there any equivalent Eastern type?

The Eastern ones became mostly Alpinised or were merged with the Nordid-Suedeuropid groups, forming more robust and somewhat Cromagniform (like robust Iranid) variants of the respective leptodolichomorphic spectra.

F.e. left robust Iranid, right gracile/fine Iranid woman:


Kurdish chief of the robust Iranid variant:


They are in a way quite similar to the Kurganoid variants we find in the steppe or the Anglo-Saxon variants in the North West, more harmonised intermediates, typically with the facial features of the Nordid-Suedeuropid, but the frame being strongly influenced, tending towards the Cromagnoid side as well.

How is the Berberid any more Cro-Magnoid than the Berid guy? Actually it seems to be the opposite, the Berid guy looks more Cro-Magnoid derived to me, such as the heavy Brow-Ridges, the wide Nasal Index, and the pronounced zygomatics. The only area where the Berberid seems to "out cro-magnoid" him is the jaw and lower face. The Berid also seems to be reduced in comparison. I would think that is the biggest difference actually -- reduction. This seems to be most notable around the lower face. Where the Berberid has that strong jaw, the Berid seems to have lost that feature, but I wouldn't say it is because of Mediterranid admixture.

Obviously not. Personally I'd say the blond Berberid is more Mediterranid/Nordid-Suedeuropid (unknown exact type) influenced than the Berid and thats quite obvious.

Here a more typical light Berberid variant (in my opinion), which still might have a certain amount of Aurignacoid influences though (high face-nose etc.):


The similarities to the Dalofaelid spectrum should be obvious, just note the eyes and jaws, the robustness of the cranium etc.

Berberids come interestingly, depending on region, tribe etc., in very light (like this guy) and (for Europids) very dark complexion, even without obvious Negroid admixture - so rather typological variation inside of the Berberid/Southern Cromagnoid spectrum in North Africa.

They were most likely the first Europids there, but again being colonised by Suedeuropid settlers which expanded mainly in Neolithic times.

[Yuffayur]

Semi-Bump

Anyway here is what I mean by a Berid looking very Cro-magnoid yet is supposedly an intermediate between Mediterranid and Cro-Magnoid.

From SNPA:

Berid



Berberid



How is the Berberid any more Cro-Magnoid than the Berid guy? Actually it seems to be the opposite, the Berid guy looks more Cro-Magnoid derived to me, such as the heavy Brow-Ridges, the wide Nasal Index, and the pronounced zygomatics. The only area where the Berberid seems to "out cro-magnoid" him is the jaw and lower face. The Berid also seems to be reduced in comparison. I would think that is the biggest difference actually -- reduction. This seems to be most notable around the lower face. Where the Berberid has that strong jaw, the Berid seems to have lost that feature, but I wouldn't say it is because of Mediterranid admixture.

The Berberid is the only CM subrace that have some Bracycephal tendencies that why they have tall faces

[StonyArabia]

Libyans look like dark Berberids.