Uses of local languages in Italy - The map

[Comte Arnau]

Percentages of use of local languages in Italy.

Heavy declining for some of them (piedmontese, lombard, ligurian, emilian, rumagnol), but the North-East is still a stronghold, as Sardinia and part of the south.

Does the deep blue Aosta Valley refer to Valdostan or to Standard French?

[Peyrol]

Does the deep blue Aosta Valley refer to Valdostan or to Standard French?

Standard french unfortunately, but valdotaine french is filled with italianisms and ''arpitanisms''.
The funny thing is that a good portion of the population is calabrese, but they still speak french. Like your estremenos and andalusos who speak catalan

Piemontèis speakers were used to call valdotaines and occitanes of the valadas ''Patòi'' in the past centuries, and they were ashamed by this...piedmontèises in the past associated valdotain arpitan with ''' 'na lenga ed cravérs montagnàrds''...so the decline of arpitan french was also due to this fact, before the italianization.

[Comte Arnau]

Standard french unfortunately, but valdotaine french is filled with italianisms and ''arpitanisms''.
The funny thing is that a good portion of the population is calabrese, but they still speak french. Like your estremenos and andalusos who speak catalan

Many of those Southern Spaniards who came here in the 60s didn't really speak it. That's when the slur xarnego spread to call non-Catalans. It's the 2nd generation who did speak it because it's the language in education, although many just used it at school or at work. Now many of the third generation may not even feel related at all to their ancestors or are children of mixed couples.

[Smaug]

Yeah it is.

There is a recent trend on venetic nationalism and the language isn't in danger of extinction.

Southerners don't migrate much to the Northeast?

[Peyrol]

Many of those Southern Spaniards who came here in the 60s didn't really speak it. That's when the slur xarnego spread to call non-Catalans. It's the 2nd generation who did speak it because it's the language in education, although many just used it at school or at work. Now many of the third generation may not even feel related at all to their ancestors or are children of mixed couples.

Cool, i didn't know the existence of that word.

At least their offsprings know and speak the language...unlike modern estremenos who didn't know a single word of their dying language.

Southerners don't migrate much to the Northeast?

No, mostly foreigners.

Remember that the Northeast wealth is a recent thing...after the '70s, unlike Piedmont and Lombardy which received the massa of southerner from the '50s, due to our ''Miracolo economico''.

[caviezel]

Standard french unfortunately, but valdotaine french is filled with italianisms and ''arpitanisms''.
The funny thing is that a good portion of the population is calabrese, but they still speak french. Like your estremenos and andalusos who speak catalan

Piemontèis speakers were used to call valdotaines and occitanes of the valadas ''Patòi'' in the past centuries, and they were ashamed by this...piedmontèises in the past associated valdotain arpitan with ''' 'na lenga ed cravérs montagnàrds''...so the decline of arpitan french was also due to this fact, before the italianization.

ma nessuno parla francese in vda, al massimo parlano l'arpitano locale a casa e nella vita quotidiana parlano italiano.

[Smaug]

Cool, i didn't know the existence of that word.

At least their offsprings know and speak the language...unlike modern estremenos who didn't know a single word of their dying language.



No, mostly foreigners.

Remember that the Northeast wealth is a recent thing...after the '70s, unlike Piedmont and Lombardy which received the massa of southerner from the '50s, due to our ''Miracolo economico''.

Yes, the reason why so many Venetians left their homeland to seek a better life overseas.

[Peyrol]

ma nessuno parla francese in vda, al massimo parlano l'arpitano locale a casa e nella vita quotidiana parlano italiano.

Se è insegnato a scuola tutti lo conoscono. E comunque tutti i valdostani che conosco parlano arpitano, che poi non è una lingua a se stante ma fa parte del continuum dialettale delle lingue d'oil.

[Ouistreham]

Yes.
Just take piedmontèis...100 years ago was the only and only language of the Savoyarde Court, they were used to speak and talk to each others in piedmontèis (or in french).

The same king Victor Emmanuel II, when firstly entered in Rome, said to Camillo Cavour, in piedmontèis, about the city: ''Finalmént aj suma, ma al ma piàs nèn...a simea a misòn de crìn'' (we, finally we're here...but i don't like this city...it remind me a pigsty''

Impossible.
Cavour was indeed poorly fluent in standard Italian, but he only spoke French to his king.
He never visited Rome, didn't want to see the town as long as it was ruled by the pope, and he died in 1861, years before Rome became Italian.

The same, IMHO, would have happened to sicilian if the island would have remained with the independent Two Sicilies...neapolitan would haved replaced the language.

No.
Never had any Italian dialect the slightest chance to replace literary Tuscan. As soon as printing presses were available, during the 16th century, it became the unchallenged administrative language in all Italian states and provinces, and from then on there couldn't be any way back.

[Ulla]

Never had any Italian dialect the slightest chance to replace literary Tuscan. As soon as printing presses were available, during the 16th century, it became the unchallenged administrative language in all Italian states and provinces, and from then on there couldn't be any way back.

That's true, even in Venice Tuscan was used as diplomatic and administrative language at least since 16th century. The first Italian court to use it as administrative language was the Duchy of Milan under Ludovico il Moro at end of 15th century.

La diffusione di una lingua letteraria di base toscana era cominciata già attorno alla fine del XIII secolo a Bologna; nel secolo successivo i principali poli di irradiazione furono le città del Veneto (Venezia, Treviso, Padova) e la corte dei Visconti a Milano. Nel 1332 il metricologo e poeta padovano Antonio da Tempo dichiara la lingua tusca, cioè il toscano, magis apta [...] ad literam sive literaturam quam aliae linguae «più adatta all’espressione scritta e alla letteratura delle altre lingue». Sempre nel Trecento, il modello fiorentino si diffonde anche in centri dell’Italia centrale e meridionale come Perugia e Napoli. Il processo di unificazione della lingua letteraria, anzitutto poetica, procede – anche se con esitazioni e regressioni – nel Quattrocento, accelerando alla fine del secolo, grazie soprattutto all’affermarsi del petrarchismo.

Più tarda è l’adozione del toscano nella lingua amministrativa. La prima corte che adotta il fiorentino trecentesco come modello, oltre che nella letteratura, anche nella prassi cancelleresca, è quella di Ludovico il Moro, signore di Milano tra il 1480 e il 1499 (Vitale 1988).

(...)Nell’ambito cancelleresco, amministrativo, giuridico, ecc., l’uso dell’italiano-fiorentino restava basato su conoscenze approssimative e condizionato dal volgare locale più a lungo di quanto accada nella lingua letteraria. Così, per es., le relazioni degli ambasciatori veneziani al Senato della Serenissima all’inizio del XVI secolo appaiono scritte in un volgare sostanzialmente toscano, cioè italiano, ma che conserva ancora elementi fonologici, morfologici e lessicali veneziani. Questo genere di lingua è chiamata spesso tosco-veneto. Nei decenni successivi i tratti locali vennero progressivamente abbandonati, e si giunse entro la fine del secolo a una pressoché completa toscanizzazione (Durante 1981: 163-164; Tomasin 2001: 158-164). L’adozione del modello toscano nel secondo Cinquecento e nel Seicento è un fenomeno che riguarda più in generale la lingua degli scriventi colti di tutta Italia. Da questo termine in avanti solo le scritture dei semicolti (➔ italiano popolare) presentano fenomeni di ibridismo tra la norma scritta nazionale, l’italiano, e la lingua parlata locale, il dialetto (Bartoli Langeli 2000).


Volgari medievali, Enciclopedia dell'Italiano (2011) di Alvise Andreose, Lorenzo Renzi

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/...27Italiano%29/