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Thread: Uses of local languages in Italy - The map

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ouistreham View Post
    But from the moment scholars in Bologna had surrendered to Florentine supremacy, the Venetians couldn't but join the bandwaggon.
    True, and this supremacy was not just a matter of language only. The Italian identity was created much before as a cultural identity, due to medieval Florentine writers, rather than a political one.

    Sicilian writer Giuseppe Antonio Borgese wrote in 20th century: "L’Italia non fu fatta da re o capitani; essa fu la creatura di un poeta: Dante. Gli stranieri che identificano l'ltalia con Dante hanno in sostanza ragione. ll suo temperamento e la sua opera ebbero una influenza decisiva (...). Non è un’esagerazione dire che egli fu per il popolo italiano quello che Mosè fu per Israele”. If you need I translate you. But I guess you don't need any translation.

    These Dante's words are extremely true even today, after 700 years.

    Ahi serva Italia, di dolore ostello,
    nave sanza nocchiere in gran tempesta,
    non donna di province, ma bordello!

  2. #32
    Peyrol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulla View Post
    Who would be happy for the disappearing of local languages?
    Almost half of the italians i think.

  3. #33
    My Countship is not of this world Comte Arnau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ouistreham View Post
    Why did Dutch (basically a Low-German dialect), Portuguese and Catalan (Iberian dialects that should logically have been absorbed by Castilian) assert themselves as full-fledged literary and political languages?
    Because they were based on influential maritime cultures that could therefore evolve independently from the continental areas they were linked too, and were able to project themselves overseas. At some point they ruled the waves.
    This was just the case for the Venetian Republic.
    Partly true, although I don't see why you say should logically have been absorbed by Castilian. Galician-Portuguese was culturally important to the point that Castilians would even prefer to write poetry in it. The medieval Catalan masterpieces (1280 to 1490) were previous to the Castilian ones of the Siglo de Oro (it's as if the year 1492 had change the power in all spheres from Aragon to Castile). And even if Spaniards like to place the supposed "unity" of Spain very early, truth is that until the 18th century it didn't really start to unify things in 'nation-state' terms, with the Bourbons. The real effect of Castilian upon Catalonia took place in the 19th and 20th centuries, and it has never really had an effect in Portugal, so it's not as if its influence should have absorbed the two powerful peripherical languages. Now Asturian and Aragonese, that's a completely different story.
    < La Catalogne peut se passer de l'univers entier, et ses voisins ne peuvent se passer d'elle. > Voltaire

  4. #34
    Like Longbowman, but white Rudel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peyrol View Post
    Standard french unfortunately, but valdotaine french is filled with italianisms and ''arpitanisms''.
    The funny thing is that a good portion of the population is calabrese, but they still speak french. Like your estremenos and andalusos who speak catalan

    Piemontèis speakers were used to call valdotaines and occitanes of the valadas ''Patòi'' in the past centuries, and they were ashamed by this...piedmontèises in the past associated valdotain arpitan with ''' 'na lenga ed cravérs montagnàrds''...so the decline of arpitan french was also due to this fact, before the italianization.
    The population really transitioned to French as the reference language when Protestantism took root in the area (pastors coming from Genève or being instructed there).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouistreham View Post
    No.
    Never had any Italian dialect the slightest chance to replace literary Tuscan. As soon as printing presses were available, during the 16th century, it became the unchallenged administrative language in all Italian states and provinces, and from then on there couldn't be any way back.
    Venetian stood as mild chance, as I remember it. The Venetian literary scene being pretty healthy until late, albeit Venice isn't central.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peyrol View Post
    How can a person be happy for the disappearing of local languages? Seriously
    By having ideas different than yours ?

  5. #35
    Member Arthur Scharrenhans's Avatar
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    This book challenges the standard opinion that before the 19th or 20th century Italian only existed as an artificial literary language and all the people spoke in real life were local dialects. Actually, things are not so clear cut: the author shows that the Italian language was already in use in several contexts as a means of communication between all kinds of not-so-learned people. Of course it wasn't the refined language of literary authors, but then register variation is exactly what we'd expect from a living language. The point is, 'literary Tuscan' wasn't foisted upon a 100% dialect-speaking population in 1861 (or 1915-1918, or the 1960es), as some people would have it.

    That's not to deny, or to rejoice in, the disappearance of the local languages of Italy (and elsewhere); in fact, I deeply regret it.

  6. #36
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    Guardate che all'unità d'Italia l'italiano era compreso in tutta la penisola. Anche i briganti scrivevano lettere in italiano.

  7. #37
    Peyrol
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    Ma dai per favore...quanti ce l'avevano come lingua nativa?
    Siamo seri suvvia...voglio proprio vedere nel Veneto degli anni '50 dell'800, così come nel Cilento o in una valle bergamasca o nella Conca D'Oro negli stessi anni parlavano regolarmente italiano...

    Anche io qua scrivo post in inglese, questo non vuol dire che sia la lingua nativa.

    I briganti peraltro spesso erano analfabeti, così come buona parte della popolazione; se le lettere sono in italiano è perchè le dettavano a preti/compangni istruiti che lo conoscevano.
    La stessa cosa accadde ai soldati della grande guerra; anzi, l'incomprensione tra soldati provenienti da varie parti della penisola fu causa di parecchi...''disguidi'', diciamo.

    Se poi si vuole credere ancora alla favoletta fascista e risorgimentale che tutti parlassero italiano e del popolo che sin dall'era di Augusto è sempre stato ''dall'Alpe a Sicilia'' e che le lingue locali fossero ''dialetti della lingua italiana'' allora fate pure, ma dubito sia una buona scelta.

  8. #38
    Member Arthur Scharrenhans's Avatar
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    Ma no, è chiaro, sarebbe una visione ancor più distorta e credo nessuna persona istruita oggi la sostenga seriamente. Ed è chiaro anche che, scientificamente, i 'dialetti' sono varietà romanze a sé stanti e non corruzioni dell'italiano... insomma, sostenere tutto ciò sarebbe sfondare una porta aperta. Invece il fatto che esistesse presso vari strati della popolazione un italiano dell'uso, anche in contesti in cui non saremmo portati a immaginarlo, è interessante. Senza nulla togliere al riconoscimento della grande importanza dei 'dialetti'.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Scharrenhans View Post
    Ma no, è chiaro, sarebbe una visione ancor più distorta e credo nessuna persona istruita oggi la sostenga seriamente. Ed è chiaro anche che, scientificamente, i 'dialetti' sono varietà romanze a sé stanti e non corruzioni dell'italiano... insomma, sostenere tutto ciò sarebbe sfondare una porta aperta. Invece il fatto che esistesse presso vari strati della popolazione un italiano dell'uso, anche in contesti in cui non saremmo portati a immaginarlo, è interessante. Senza nulla togliere al riconoscimento della grande importanza dei 'dialetti'.
    Chiaro. E' stata comunque la ''lingua franca'' della cultura per secoli (e anche delle opere...Mozart usava l'italiano oltre un secolo prima dell'Unità), questo è innegabile.
    Lo stesso si può dire comunque del latino.
    Paradossalmente, se all'Unità avessero scelto il latino come lingua nazionale e la lingua avesse subito lo stesso iter di ''promozione'' subito dall'italiano...ora lo parleremo tutti.

  10. #40
    Member Arthur Scharrenhans's Avatar
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    Utinam fecissent! :-)

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