How much of R1a (what %) could there be in West Germany before WW2 ???

[Rugevit]

Poles came from Ukraine with the expansion of Prague-Korchak cultural horizon. This is mentioned in every book in all Slavic countries from Macedonia to Russia.

[Peterski]

I was asking from which regions of Poland did he take samples, not how large his sample is.

I have no time at the moment to read this paper, that's why I asked if he says where are his samples from.

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Edit:

Poles came from Ukraine (...)

New study of aDNA from area of Poland was published on 22 October 2014:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post444836

"Ancient DNA Reveals Matrilineal Continuity in Present-Day Poland over the Last Two Millennia", published on October 22, 2014:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0110839

This study attempts to establish which of modern ethnic groups (18 were examined) are descendants of inhabitants of Iron Age Poland and of Early Medieval (first Piast dynasty rulers) Poland. The study compares samples of fossil mtDNA from Late Iron Age Poland (200 BC - 500 AD) and Early Medieval Poland (950 AD - 1250 AD), with samples of mtDNA from modern populations. Sample sizes are 23 individuals from 4 burial sites of Ancient Poland and 20 individuals from 2 burial sites of Medieval Poland. These Ancient and Medieval samples were compared to a large modern sample of 3595 individuals from 18 ethnic groups (300 Poles, 305 Belarusians, 307 Russians, 300 Czechs & Slovaks, 300 Bosnians, Slovenians & Croatians, 300 Bulgarians, 293 Macedonians & Serbians, 300 Ukrainians, 296 Swedes, 300 Germans, 277 Lithuanians & Latvians, 317 Finns & Estonians).

Ancient burial sites are Kowalewko (K), Karczyn (KA), Gąski (G) and Rogowo (R) associated with Iron Age Przeworsk & Wielbark Cultures.
Medieval burial sites are Ostrów Lednicki (OL) and Cedynia (C), both associated with the reigns of Mieszko I and Bolesław I (960 - 1025).



Briefly, the results of the study can be described like this:

The highest % of shared informative mtDNA lineages with people of Iron Age Poland is among modern: Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Czechs, Slovaks.

The highest % of shared informative mtDNA lineages with people of Early Medieval Poland is among modern: Poles, Bulgarians, Belarusians, Ukrainians.

The lowest % of shared informative mtDNA lineages with people of Iron Age Poland is among modern: Macedonians, Serbs, Finns, Estonians, Germans.

Out of 18 examined modern ethnic groups, Poles share the highest % of mtDNA with both Ancient Poland and Medieval Poland. Modern Germans appear to share only little of mtDNA with Iron Age Poland (samples from 4 burial sites of Przeworsk and Wielbark Cultures). So Ancient amber traders along the Amber Road were not biological ancestors of Germans. The study confirms continuity of many lineages between those traders and modern Poles. But it seems that there was also immigration of new lineages (similar to Bulgarians & East Slavs) between 400 AD and 900 AD.

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And if including also non-informative lineages then ethnic Poles still come 2nd (72 matches with the aDNA sample of 23 in a modern sample of 300 Poles), but the highest percent of shared similar mtDNA with aDNA from Roman times Iron Age in what is now Poland, is among Bosnians-Croatians-Slovenians (93 matches with the aDNA sample of 23 in a modern sample of 300 Bos-Cro-Slo).

But non-informative as far as I understand means that those types of mtDNA could be geographically widespread already in ancient times - so these are not necessarily descendants of ancient people who lived in what is now Poland; they can be descendants of people with similar mtDNA who lived elsewhere. While informative lineages are for sure from this specific part of Europe.

[Rugevit]

I was asking from which regions of Poland did he take samples, not how large his sample is.

If the tables shows results for Poles, then from several regions representing all Poland. Those researchers have published extensively in peer-reviewed journals. I would not doubt their expertise on obtaining samples for research.

[Rugevit]

"Ancient DNA Reveals Matrilineal Continuity in Present-Day Poland over the Last Two Millennia", published on October 22, 2014:

mtDNA studies are less informative than Y-DNA studies on human migration for several reasons.

[Peterski]

Y-DNA is only informative on migrations of males.

Continuity of mtDNA means that at least females survived, sized by new husbands.

BTW - I don't believe that you already finished reading this study, but you comment?

Helena Maelmstrom - is she from your country? - participated in that study.

But I wonder why didn't they compare also modern peoples from Iberia and Italy.

[Peterski]

If the tables shows results for Poles, then from several regions representing all Poland. Those researchers have published extensively in peer-reviewed journals. I would not doubt their expertise on obtaining samples for research.

I have seen studies from peer-reviewed journals which took their samples from just one city, and - moreover - small samples... You really have too much trust, it is better to take things with a grain of salt and carefully check their reliability.

[Peterski]

It would have been higher in East Germany than West Germany anyway. Your premise is flawed.

Yes, but before WW2 there was likely just ca. 1% - 3% of R1a in West Germany.

That's what I mean.

[Longbowman]

Yes, but before WW2 there was probably just between ca. 1% and ca. 3% of R1a in West Germany.

I doubt it. R1a is higher than that even in Britain. West Germany is 10-15% now. Soviet rapes did not change the demographics hugely.

[Peterski]

Rapes never change demographics because females either abort pregnancies or kill such babies after birth. And Soviet rapes would have brought a lot of Central and East Asian HGs too, because the Red Army was very multi-ethnic (as multi-ethnic as modern Sweden or London).

However, you apparently did not read my posts on page 1 at all. There I explained who brought this R1a. In Britain they have different subclades of R1a than in West Germany. AFAIK, most of British R1a is "Norwegian" Z284 - right? It was brought there by Scandinavians.

[Rugevit]

Y-DNA is only informative on migrations of males.

Continuity of mtDNA means that at least females survived, sized by new husbands.

BTW - I don't believe that you already finished reading this study, but you comment?

Helena Maelmstrom - is she from your country? - participated in that study.

But I wonder why didn't they compare also modern peoples from Iberia and Italy.

I know what are mtDNA and Y-DNA and which parent these markers are passed to their offsprings. mtDNA studies are less informative because they don't show consistent trends in human migrations, as women were taken into other villages, towns or countries, while men stayed at home more often. It's for this reason mtDNA are more diverse in any European population than Y-DNA.