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Thread: Haplogroup E-V13 is paleolithic european (Eupedia claims)

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    Default Haplogroup E-V13 is paleolithic european (Eupedia claims)

    The main points from the updated article about Haplogroup E1b1b

    This alternate hypothesis is that E-V13 migrated directly from North Africa to southern Europe, crossing the Mediterranean from Tunisia to Sicily, then to Italy and to the southern Balkans. This scenario would explain why E-V13 reaches its peak frequency just on the opposite side of the Strait of Otranto from Italy, i.e. in Albania (+ Kosovo) and Thessaly.

    During the Ice Age, Malta, Sicily and mainland Italy formed a single land mass and the coast of North Africa was approximately half the distance it was today, making Sicily visible from Tunisia. Considering that Homo sapiens managed to get all the way to Australia by boat between 70,000 and 40,000 years ago, crossing the Strait of Sicily, perhaps via the small island of Pantelleria halfway, would have posed no major problem. In fact, it is almost certain that humans crossed that strait numerous times during the Stone Age.

    Other subclades of E-M78 also present in North Africa and Europe today, like V12, V22 and V65, could also have crossed alongside V13. It is perhaps only due to a founder effect that V13 became considerably more common than other subclades in Europe, especially in the Balkans and eastern Europe. The greatest diversity of E-M78 subclades in Europe is actually found in Iberia, Italy and France, and not in the Balkans (where nearly all E1b1b are V13).

    E-V13 is more common in Lybia today than anywhere in the Near East, which concords with central North Africa as being a potential source for the European E-V13 (and other subclades of M78). In fact, the small presence of E-V13 in the Near East could be better explained by the extremely long Greek presence in the eastern Mediterranean from the time of Alexander the Great until the end of the Byzantine domination over the region during the Middle Ages.

    A strong argument in favour of E1b1b crossing directly from North Africa to southern Italy is that South Italians have more African admixture than people in the Balkans, Greece or Anatolia. This is true of the Northwest African admixture and the East African (Red sea) admixture. Another argument is that E1b1b has never been found among the dozens of Neolithic Y-DNA samples in the Balkans or Central Europe.

    The Neoltihic farmers who migrated from the Levant to the Balkans would have brought mostly Southwest Asian admixture and apparently exclusively Y-haplogroup G2a. Many Neolithic sites yielded an occasional "outsider" to the G2a majority, but these were lineages (C1a2, F, I1, I2) that are thought to belong to assimilated (or enslaved) Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. That was very probably the case with E-V13 in Catalonia too.

    In the Balkans, I2a1b lineages only came between the Bronze Age (Thracians, Illyrians) and the Middle Ages (Slavs). If haplogroups C, F and I were the only Paleolithic European lineages, why would indigenous Paleolithic lineages be wiped out from the Balkans and most of Italy with the arrival of Near Eastern farmers, but survive and remain the dominant lineage in Sardinia, which was an important Neolithic centre belonging to the same Cardium Pottery culture as the rest of Italy ? The best explanation is that E1b1b was already the dominant Paleolithic lineage in the Balkans and Italy, apart from Sardinia, and therefore Paleolithic lineages weren't wiped out, but assimilated by Neolithic farmers, which assured their survival.

    Nowadays E1b1b is the only Mediterranean haplogroup consistently found throughout Europe, even in Norway, Sweden, Finland and Baltic countries, which are conspicuous by the absence of other Neolithic haplogroups like G2a (bar the Indo-European G2a3b1), J1 and T (except in Estonia). However, since G2a is the only lineage that was consistently found in all Neolithic sites tested to date in Europe, the absence of Neolithic G2a lineages from Scandinavia and the Baltic implies that no Neolithic lineage survives there, and consequently E1b1b (mostly E-V13) does not date from the Neolithic in the region. It could easily have been brought by the Indo-European invasions during the Bronze Age, as a minority lineage picked up in Southeast Europe by the R1b tribes before they made their way to Central Europe and eventually Scandinavia. At present the most consistent explanation is that E-M78 was indigenous to southern Europe in the Mesolithic, and was assimilated by G2a farmers, then by R1b Indo-Europeans. There is in fact a very low diversity among E-V13 in central and north-east Europe, which is consistent with a relatively recent (Bronze to Iron Age) dispersal from a common source.

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    Senior Member Thrax's Avatar
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    I think I am in favor of the theory, since Maciamo explains it with good arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrax View Post
    At present the most consistent explanation is that E-M78 was indigenous to southern Europe in the Mesolithic
    That's probably true. The rest are just mumbo-jumbo theories of the clown Maciamo

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    I would be inclined to agree with this for a number of reasons:

    1) E1b1b is not common in the same places as J2 outside of Europe, and thus it is unlikely they arrived together into Europe
    2) E1b1b is more common on the Greek mainland and Albania than it is in Sicily and Greek islands, but the latter have higher Near Eastern autosomal admixture, so it's unlikely that this haplogroup carried any real West Asian tendencies with it

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    Would be an interesting turn of events, we'll have to wait for more aDNA.

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    That actually makes a lot of sense. The Illyrians were Paleobalkanic.

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    E-V13 in the Balkans dates probably at least to the Mesolithic and is related to the Natufians from the Levant. Jean Manco wrote this on Anthrogenica:

    The Greek Mesolithic is different from that in the rest of Europe. For a start there are very few Mesolithic sites. They are generally coastal. But the really striking thing is that they seem related to the Levantine Natufian. So these were likely to be coastal foragers wandering from the Levant via the coast of Anatolia to Greece as the climate warmed.
    The Natufians are very likely the "Basal Eurasian" population detected by Lazaridis et al 2014.

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    aR1an & hUnt4r-gatherer Artek's Avatar
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    As Maciamo really likes to write his own story, he states such things like

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrax View Post
    This alternate hypothesis is that E-V13 migrated directly from North Africa to southern Europe, crossing the Mediterranean from Tunisia to Sicily, then to Italy and to the southern Balkans. This scenario would explain why E-V13 reaches its peak frequency just on the opposite side of the Strait of Otranto from Italy, i.e. in Albania (+ Kosovo) and Thessaly.
    Basing on modern distribution(especially frequencies)? Nonsense, it was proven wrong many times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrax View Post
    During the Ice Age, Malta, Sicily and mainland Italy formed a single land mass and the coast of North Africa was approximately half the distance it was today, making Sicily visible from Tunisia. Considering that Homo sapiens managed to get all the way to Australia by boat between 70,000 and 40,000 years ago, crossing the Strait of Sicily, perhaps via the small island of Pantelleria halfway, would have posed no major problem. In fact, it is almost certain that humans crossed that strait numerous times during the Stone Age.
    Agreed with that. It can't be denied that this area was easier to cross in the past.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thrax View Post
    Other subclades of E-M78 also present in North Africa and Europe today, like V12, V22 and V65, could also have crossed alongside V13. It is perhaps only due to a founder effect that V13 became considerably more common than other subclades in Europe, especially in the Balkans and eastern Europe. The greatest diversity of E-M78 subclades in Europe is actually found in Iberia, Italy and France, and not in the Balkans (where nearly all E1b1b are V13).
    "Diversity" argument, proven invalid many times. And the diversity in those areas was inflated by various movements that took place during antiquity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thrax View Post
    E-V13 is more common in Lybia today than anywhere in the Near East, which concords with central North Africa as being a potential source for the European E-V13 (and other subclades of M78). In fact, the small presence of E-V13 in the Near East could be better explained by the extremely long Greek presence in the eastern Mediterranean from the time of Alexander the Great until the end of the Byzantine domination over the region during the Middle Ages.
    Partially agreed, though it would be good to see if those lines diverged earlier or later from bulk of European E-V13. And E-V13 from Levant should be studied more closely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrax View Post
    Another argument is that E1b1b has never been found among the dozens of Neolithic Y-DNA samples in the Balkans or Central Europe.
    That's right, though it's neither argument for nor against paleolithic (Southern) European character. It very well may prove that it could've been more recent in the Balkans, than we thought it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrax View Post
    The Neoltihic farmers who migrated from the Levant to the Balkans would have brought mostly Southwest Asian admixture and apparently exclusively Y-haplogroup G2a. Many Neolithic sites yielded an occasional "outsider" to the G2a majority, but these were lineages (C1a2, F, I1, I2) that are thought to belong to assimilated (or enslaved) Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. That was very probably the case with E-V13 in Catalonia too.
    Agreed, although other two lineages add up to this : T1 and H2.(which aren't from assimilated european mesolithic hunters)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrax View Post
    In the Balkans, I2a1b lineages only came between the Bronze Age (Thracians, Illyrians) and the Middle Ages (Slavs).
    But there were other I2 lineages? So that's not an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrax View Post
    If haplogroups C, F and I were the only Paleolithic European lineages, why would indigenous Paleolithic lineages be wiped out from the Balkans and most of Italy with the arrival of Near Eastern farmers, but survive and remain the dominant lineage in Sardinia, which was an important Neolithic centre belonging to the same Cardium Pottery culture as the rest of Italy ?
    He haven't studied thesis of Francalacci. Sardinian I2 exploded quite recently, it wasn't a significant lineage for a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrax View Post
    The best explanation is that E1b1b was already the dominant Paleolithic lineage in the Balkans and Italy, apart from Sardinia, and therefore Paleolithic lineages weren't wiped out, but assimilated by Neolithic farmers, which assured their survival.
    First time he writes that there was no E-V13 among the Balkan neolithic farmer remains, second time he writes that they assimilated hunters-gatherers what helped preserving their lineages. Then he writes that E-V13 was a dominant Paleolithic Balkan lineage (though no assimilated E-V13 was found there or in other areas except Catalonia). Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrax View Post
    Nowadays E1b1b is the only Mediterranean haplogroup consistently found throughout Europe, even in Norway, Sweden, Finland and Baltic countries, which are conspicuous by the absence of other Neolithic haplogroups like G2a (bar the Indo-European G2a3b1), J1 and T (except in Estonia).
    He consistently repeats that J1 is Neolithic. It is but rather not in Europe. Those haplogroups that are considered absent by him, are present in aforementioned countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrax View Post
    It could easily have been brought by the Indo-European invasions during the Bronze Age, as a minority lineage picked up in Southeast Europe by the R1b tribes before they made their way to Central Europe and eventually Scandinavia. At present the most consistent explanation is that E-M78 was indigenous to southern Europe in the Mesolithic, and was assimilated by G2a farmers, then by R1b Indo-Europeans. There is in fact a very low diversity among E-V13 in central and north-east Europe, which is consistent with a relatively recent (Bronze to Iron Age) dispersal from a common source.
    I agree, though I'm not sure where it was really picked up.

    More aDNA, less theories,
    R1a-Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y3226>YP5224>BY27800
    N1c-L1026>CTS10760>VL29>Z4908>L550>L1025>M2783>Y5580>L591>BY158>Y5576
    R1a-Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP1019>YP1020>YP1033*
    R1b-U152>L2>DF103>S14469
    It's still not an end.
    R1a and R1b unite - Join!

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    No its not really.

    E-v13 also known as E1b is the Neolithic farmer haplogroup,it is also the main haplogroup of root Jewish people,Sub Saharan Africans,Somalis etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HunterSV View Post
    No its not really.

    E-v13 also known as E1b is the Neolithic farmer haplogroup,it is also the main haplogroup of root Jewish people,Sub Saharan Africans,Somalis etc.
    V13 isn't the root of Jewish people, SSA or Somalis. They have (mostly) other E1b lineages, phylogenetically quite distant.
    R1a-Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y3226>YP5224>BY27800
    N1c-L1026>CTS10760>VL29>Z4908>L550>L1025>M2783>Y5580>L591>BY158>Y5576
    R1a-Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP1019>YP1020>YP1033*
    R1b-U152>L2>DF103>S14469
    It's still not an end.
    R1a and R1b unite - Join!

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