Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons

  1. #1
    From the Julian Alps curiousman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northeastern Italy
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Romance
    Ethnicity
    Italian
    Country
    Italy
    Gender
    Posts
    430

    Default Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons

    Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons

    Exclusive: Secret apartheid-era papers give first official evidence of Israeli nuclear weapons

    The secret military agreement signed by Shimon Peres, now president of Israel, and P W Botha of South Africa. Photograph: Guardian

    Secret South African documents reveal that Israel offered to sell nuclear warheads to the apartheid regime, providing the first official documentary evidence of the state's possession of nuclear weapons.

    The "top secret" minutes of meetings between senior officials from the two countries in 1975 show that South Africa's defence minister, PW Botha, asked for the warheads and Shimon Peres, then Israel's defence minister and now its president, responded by offering them "in three sizes". The two men also signed a broad-ranging agreement governing military ties between the two countries that included a clause declaring that "the very existence of this agreement" was to remain secret.

    The documents, uncovered by an American academic, Sasha Polakow-Suransky, in research for a book on the close relationship between the two countries, provide evidence that Israel has nuclear weapons despite its policy of "ambiguity" in neither confirming nor denying their existence.

    The Israeli authorities tried to stop South Africa's post-apartheid government declassifying the documents at Polakow-Suransky's request and the revelations will be an embarrassment, particularly as this week's nuclear non-proliferation talks in New York focus on the Middle East.

    They will also undermine Israel's attempts to suggest that, if it has nuclear weapons, it is a "responsible" power that would not misuse them, whereas countries such as Iran cannot be trusted.

    A spokeswoman for Peres today said the report was baseless and there were "never any negotiations" between the two countries. She did not comment on the authenticity of the documents.

    South African documents show that the apartheid-era military wanted the missiles as a deterrent and for potential strikes against neighbouring states.

    The documents show both sides met on 31 March 1975. Polakow-Suransky writes in his book published in the US this week, The Unspoken Alliance: Israel's secret alliance with apartheid South Africa. At the talks Israeli officials "formally offered to sell South Africa some of the nuclear-capable Jericho missiles in its arsenal".

    Among those attending the meeting was the South African military chief of staff, Lieutenant General RF Armstrong. He immediately drew up a memo in which he laid out the benefits of South Africa obtaining the Jericho missiles but only if they were fitted with nuclear weapons.

    The memo, marked "top secret" and dated the same day as the meeting with the Israelis, has previously been revealed but its context was not fully understood because it was not known to be directly linked to the Israeli offer on the same day and that it was the basis for a direct request to Israel. In it, Armstrong writes: "In considering the merits of a weapon system such as the one being offered, certain assumptions have been made: a) That the missiles will be armed with nuclear warheads manufactured in RSA (Republic of South Africa) or acquired elsewhere."

    But South Africa was years from being able to build atomic weapons. A little more than two months later, on 4 June, Peres and Botha met in Zurich. By then the Jericho project had the codename Chalet.

    The top secret minutes of the meeting record that: "Minister Botha expressed interest in a limited number of units of Chalet subject to the correct payload being available." The document then records: "Minister Peres said the correct payload was available in three sizes. Minister Botha expressed his appreciation and said that he would ask for advice." The "three sizes" are believed to refer to the conventional, chemical and nuclear weapons.

    The use of a euphemism, the "correct payload", reflects Israeli sensitivity over the nuclear issue and would not have been used had it been referring to conventional weapons. It can also only have meant nuclear warheads as Armstrong's memorandum makes clear South Africa was interested in the Jericho missiles solely as a means of delivering nuclear weapons.

    In addition, the only payload the South Africans would have needed to obtain from Israel was nuclear. The South Africans were capable of putting together other warheads.

    Botha did not go ahead with the deal in part because of the cost. In addition, any deal would have to have had final approval by Israel's prime minister and it is uncertain it would have been forthcoming.

    South Africa eventually built its own nuclear bombs, albeit possibly with Israeli assistance. But the collaboration on military technology only grew over the following years. South Africa also provided much of the yellowcake uranium that Israel required to develop its weapons.

    The documents confirm accounts by a former South African naval commander, Dieter Gerhardt – jailed in 1983 for spying for the Soviet Union. After his release with the collapse of apartheid, Gerhardt said there was an agreement between Israel and South Africa called Chalet which involved an offer by the Jewish state to arm eight Jericho missiles with "special warheads". Gerhardt said these were atomic bombs. But until now there has been no documentary evidence of the offer.

    Some weeks before Peres made his offer of nuclear warheads to Botha, the two defence ministers signed a covert agreement governing the military alliance known as Secment. It was so secret that it included a denial of its own existence: "It is hereby expressly agreed that the very existence of this agreement... shall be secret and shall not be disclosed by either party".

    The agreement also said that neither party could unilaterally renounce it.

    The existence of Israel's nuclear weapons programme was revealed by Mordechai Vanunu to the Sunday Times in 1986. He provided photographs taken inside the Dimona nuclear site and gave detailed descriptions of the processes involved in producing part of the nuclear material but provided no written documentation.

    Documents seized by Iranian students from the US embassy in Tehran after the 1979 revolution revealed the Shah expressed an interest to Israel in developing nuclear arms. But the South African documents offer confirmation Israel was in a position to arm Jericho missiles with nuclear warheads.

    Israel pressured the present South African government not to declassify documents obtained by Polakow-Suransky. "The Israeli defence ministry tried to block my access to the Secment agreement on the grounds it was sensitive material, especially the signature and the date," he said. "The South Africans didn't seem to care; they blacked out a few lines and handed it over to me. The ANC government is not so worried about protecting the dirty laundry of the apartheid regime's old allies."


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...uclear-weapons

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Lulletje Rozewater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    South africa
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Germanic/French
    Ethnicity
    Dutch
    Ancestry
    Holland/France/Germany
    Country
    Netherlands
    Region
    Prussia
    Politics
    to preserve whiteness
    Religion
    none
    Gender
    Posts
    2,411


    I admire those who fight for a cause and despise those who cause fights.

    When in doubt, make a fool of yourself. There is a microscopically thin line between being brilliantly creative and acting like the most gigantic idiot on earth. So what the hell, leap.



  3. #3
    Banned Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"


    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Nea Solunika
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Slavo-Hellenic
    Ethnicity
    Macedonian
    Ancestry
    Carstvo Macedon
    Country
    Macedonia
    Y-DNA
    E1b1b1a2
    mtDNA
    T2a1
    Politics
    Realism
    Religion
    Agnostic
    Age
    22
    Gender
    Posts
    12,963

    Default

    South Africa having nuclear weapons would be only useful in preserving apartheid (as a deterrent to those who may try to topple the apartheid via conventional warfare) otherwise I don't see much point in SA having nuclear weapons.

  4. #4
    Kebab Removal Specialist
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    And
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Serbia
    Ethnicity
    ...
    Ancestry
    Now
    Country
    Albania
    Region
    Aboriginal
    Politics
    Forever!
    Gender
    Posts
    5,890

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hippaforalkus View Post
    South Africa having nuclear weapons would be only useful in preserving apartheid (as a deterrent to those who may try to topple the apartheid via conventional warfare) otherwise I don't see much point in SA having nuclear weapons.
    Communist-backed neighbours whom against the SA Army fought?
    Finns - The Bestest Finnics since 1227

  5. #5
    Banned Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"


    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Nea Solunika
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Slavo-Hellenic
    Ethnicity
    Macedonian
    Ancestry
    Carstvo Macedon
    Country
    Macedonia
    Y-DNA
    E1b1b1a2
    mtDNA
    T2a1
    Politics
    Realism
    Religion
    Agnostic
    Age
    22
    Gender
    Posts
    12,963

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Riippumaton View Post
    Communist-backed neighbours whom against the SA Army fought?
    Well, nuclear weapons aren't very useful in guerrilla wars (the wars SA solely fought from the 60s' up until the 80s') mainly because guerrilla wars aren't conventional and there's no conventional army to defeat but rather you have to send soldiers to crush uprisings and wipe out leaders which is often the case in guerrilla wars.

  6. #6
    Veteran Member Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    Groenewolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Death
    Ethnicity
    Death
    Country
    Netherlands
    Age
    99
    Gender
    Posts
    3,361

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hippaforalkus View Post
    Well, nuclear weapons aren't very useful in guerrilla wars (the wars SA solely fought from the 60s' up until the 80s') mainly because guerrilla wars aren't conventional and there's no conventional army to defeat but rather you have to send soldiers to crush uprisings and wipe out leaders which is often the case in guerrilla wars.
    There is more involved in crushing guerrilla's then just that. That what was the US in Vietnam and the USSR in Afghanistan mostly did and effectively. However to crush a guerrilla in the long run you also have to do other things like undermining recruitment potential, or else you will keep on crushing uprisings and wiping out leaders.
    Last edited by Groenewolf; 05-25-2010 at 04:48 PM.

  7. #7
    Veteran Member Lulletje Rozewater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    South africa
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Germanic/French
    Ethnicity
    Dutch
    Ancestry
    Holland/France/Germany
    Country
    Netherlands
    Region
    Prussia
    Politics
    to preserve whiteness
    Religion
    none
    Gender
    Posts
    2,411

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hippaforalkus View Post
    South Africa having nuclear weapons would be only useful in preserving apartheid (as a deterrent to those who may try to topple the apartheid via conventional warfare) otherwise I don't see much point in SA having nuclear weapons.
    They knew they would lose the battle against the world and dismantled every tiny bit before an agreement with the blacks were established.


    I admire those who fight for a cause and despise those who cause fights.

    When in doubt, make a fool of yourself. There is a microscopically thin line between being brilliantly creative and acting like the most gigantic idiot on earth. So what the hell, leap.



  8. #8
    NO! Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    Grumpy Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Feline
    Ethnicity
    Snowshoe
    Country
    Canada
    Politics
    I voted once, it was horrible
    Religion
    All my 9 lives are devoid of meaning
    Gender
    Posts
    6,720

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hippaforalkus View Post
    South Africa having nuclear weapons would be only useful in preserving apartheid (as a deterrent to those who may try to topple the apartheid via conventional warfare) otherwise I don't see much point in SA having nuclear weapons.
    How so? If theoretically they used a nuclear weapon on those who would try to topple the government, the areas populated by the white elite who ran the government would be affected by the fallout. Cancer would spread like wildfire.

  9. #9
    Banned Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"


    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Nea Solunika
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Slavo-Hellenic
    Ethnicity
    Macedonian
    Ancestry
    Carstvo Macedon
    Country
    Macedonia
    Y-DNA
    E1b1b1a2
    mtDNA
    T2a1
    Politics
    Realism
    Religion
    Agnostic
    Age
    22
    Gender
    Posts
    12,963

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AcadianDriftwood View Post
    How so? If theoretically they used a nuclear weapon on those who would try to topple the government, the areas populated by the white elite who ran the government would be affected by the fallout. Cancer would spread like wildfire.
    No I was talking about a Iraq scenario.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •