Reich: Yamnaya brought R1b to Europe

[curupira]

Vennemann studied old european river names, showing a correlation with Basque languages in Western Europe. Celtic languages arrived after that, just like the clades of R1b in Western Europe. Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasconic_substratum_theory

Basque R1b is not associated with the Basque languages. Like all Iberian R1b, it is R1b-P312, a very new haplogroup which got there very recently, perhaps as recent as 2000 years BC (at the same time Lusitanian and Celtic IE languages got in Iberia). Gimbutas associated Bell Beaker with the IE, and she was right, since the earliest R1b found in Europe so far, in East Germany, was in a Bell Beaker site.

R1b has not been found in neither Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. The timeframe of its arrival in Western Europe coincides with that of IE languages. It could not have been spoken by the original Basque speakers. The study of river names in Western Europe shows Basque like languages were more widespread before the arrival of IE, at a time earlier than the arrival of R1b there.

The point is: the timeframe of IE languages in Western Europe coincides with the spread of R1b. There is no R1b in either Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. How could it get to Western Europe and become the dominant lineage there if not with the spread of IE languages? Both events took place at about the same time. We know it by studying linguistic and the R1b clades.

You are not really familiar with R1b clades in Western Europe, are you? They are extremely recent, and their arrival coincides with that of IE languages. Just read about it and inform yourself. Western Europe is dominated by R1b-P312 and R1b-U106, they are both the most downstream (not upstream) clades. We knew the upstream clades are found in the East. It was not difficult to foresee an association with Yamnaya and Samara would have been reported: and it was, yesterday!

But why is that it has a peak in Basques:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29
Did Basques precede "Indo-Europeans" that came with R1b. Are Basques earlier than 3500 years in Spain? That's ludicruous...
Are people from W Sicily 30% "Indo-European"? There is no documented presence of Aryans in W Sicily prior to Greco-Roman times. One would expect an all-time-low average for this region, but instead here we have among the highest ratio in Italy.

[Grace O'Malley]

Also explaining the differences in ANE in North Western European and places like Iberia. I'll see if I can find a link but there was a population crash in Ireland around this time so it would have been very sparsely populated leaving room for all these R1b people carrying ANE whereas Southern Europe was a lot more populated already so didn't get quite the same hit and ANE was lost on the R1b route through France where people mixed and then further into Iberia.

[Jackson]

Reich also apparently said that the Bell Beakers in Germany and in Spain had WHG, EEF and ANE but in different proportions - Presumably in Iberia they had more EEF, less WHG and ANE, or at least less ANE. The northern Bell Beakers were not that different to Corded Ware individuals, but they must have assimilated more locals in Iberia. Ie IE had linguistic and genetic success in Iberia, but the level of replacement must have been lower there than in northern Europe.

The figures were 60-100% replacement by farmers between Mesolithic-Neolithic transition.
Then followed by some WHG resurgence.
Then 60-80% replacement by steppe groups.
Followed by some resurgence in previous ancestry.

I don't know if the figures are just referring to one area of Europe - i imagine the upper and lower bound are geographically different locations. Although, if replacement was lower (60%) somewhere like Iberia, and then resurgence since the bronze age stronger there, could explain the differences between modern groups, as well as the Beaker groups being genetically a bit different in the first place.

[Arhat]

no samples were shown and r1b among yamna was not confirmed. Reich even did not mention that he found r1b, he just mentioned that he thought that yamna brought r1b to europe but he has not shown any evidences and r1b could be just picked up by yamna people who brought it later to western europe but this does not mean that it had anything to do with PIEs. Even when r1b was found in yamna, this does not mean that european r1b was brought from there.

[Grace O'Malley]

no samples were shown and r1b among yamna was not confirmed. Reich even did not mention that he found r1b, he just mentioned that he thought that yamna brought r1b to europe but he has not shown any evidences and r1b could be just picked up by yamna people who brought it later to western europe but this does not mean that it had anything to do with PIEs. Even when r1b was found in yamna, this does not mean that european r1b was brought from there.

So R1b appears 4,000 years ago as well as Indo-European languages with large population turnover and there is no link?? There are also 7 Yamnaya samples so all will be revealed when the papers are published.

[Graham]

Would be interesting too see how the ancient populations start to look more like Modern Western Europeans, if we have the beaker results.

[Danishmend]

What a glourious day!!

Soon they will also reveal that Yamnaya had some sort of J2 or G haplogroups as well, as they were roughly 50% (ANE + some WHG) + 50% Near Eastern farmer-like population, so they must have absorbed some J2 or G male lineages. Then entire Europe will eventually become 100% Indo-European!!!!

There is no R1b in either Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe.

Really?


Let's take Basques who have the lowest amount of ANE admixture in Europe for example, they have 80-90% R1b.
Indo-European men invade Basque people who lack any sort of R1b, mate with local Basque women and R1b becomes the most dominant male lineage among these people. But they don't switch to Indo-European language somehow, although they absorb similar amount of ANE and R1b as other Southwest Europeans.

I'm not saying R1b didn't exist in Yamnaya, buy saying all of R1b spread across Europe with Indo-Europeans is ridiculous.

[Arhat]

So R1b appears 4,000 years ago as well as Indo-European languages with large population turnover and there is no link?? There are also 7 Yamnaya samples so all will be revealed when the papers are published.

explain me why centum tocharians had no r1b and why basques have 80% r1b. Maybe some special subclades of r1b orginate in yamna but surely not most of modern european r1b. R1b was not present among ancient scythian steppe people and they were direct descendant of the steppe people. R1b was maybe present in the most western part of the european steppe but it was surely orginally not indo-european

[curupira]

I'm not saying R1b didn't exist in Yamnaya, buy saying all of R1b spread across Europe with Indo-Europeans is ridiculous.

Read my post above. You seem to ignore that R1b Basque is very recent in Iberia, it arrived earlier than Basque languages (which we can infer from the study of river names in Western Europe). The fact that somehow Basque did not went extinct likely has to do with an incomplete process of Indo Europeanisation in Iberia, which is the exception, not the rule (check the British Isles, France, the Netherlands, France). You have to look at the forest (the bigger picture).

[curupira]

This is what Roy King said:

I'm very certain that R1b will be found in the aDNA Samara/Yamnaya samples from Reich's comments. Phylogeographically it makes sense--M73 and M269 are sister clades and both are found among Bashkirs and other Middle Eastern/Central Asian populations, eg among Tajiks and in the Iranian samples along the South Caspian. L23 variance is actually highest in Pakistan! I've said very little for two reasons: 1) I am an academic and honor the peer review process and 2) I have been a major proponent of J2 convecting the first Neolithic farmers to Europe which is clearly now not the case, with G2a taking preeminence.
That said, R1b surfed from the Eastern/Northern Caspian all the way into Europe with, probably, some R1b-L23 migrating from the Balkans into Anatolia, ferrying the Anatolian languages there.

February 9, 2015 at 6:46 PM

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?bl...8&isPopup=true

no samples were shown and r1b among yamna was not confirmed. Reich even did not mention that he found r1b, he just mentioned that he thought that yamna brought r1b to europe but he has not shown any evidences and r1b could be just picked up by yamna people who brought it later to western europe but this does not mean that it had anything to do with PIEs. Even when r1b was found in yamna, this does not mean that european r1b was brought from there.