Greek relationship to r1b y-dna and indo-European language?

[Scholarios]

Proto-Greeks and Pre-Greeks acculturated to one another. R1a is a likelier candidate anyways.

[Scholarios]

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Another proof of ancient Greeks being more northern is that they had a stable economy. Countries of original European stock like Germany have a good economy today whereas Greek economy is a disaster

What is the common denominator between Bronze Age Mediterranean economics and modern capitalism ? And what was the state of Germanic tribes economics? Weren't they the illegal immigrants of the Roman world ? Always trying to break down the gates of Rome to get med wimminz and free shit from the Romans.

[altin]

The truth is simple, supported by every evidence, and useful to explain the present.
During the campaigns of Alexander as well as after his death lots of slaves were brought in Balkan from North-East Africa and South-West Asia, the so called "neolithic farmers". Among them there were Jews too.

Imagine if you are slaves, planing to kill the master and escape. But one guy betrays and tells everything to the master. Normally you would have punished the traitor, but the master rewards him and hangs the others. The master does this to give a message: "If you're faithful to me you're rewarded, if not you get hanged".
You need a mental framework to fight back: "Yes, the master rewarded the traitor, but there is another master, the greatest master, the Lord, that will punish him forever. And those heroes are not dead, maybe their body is, but their souls will live forever in the greatest place ever".

You're powerless slaves. You can't punish or reward anyone. That's why you postpone the justice after death. And because there's no way to demonstrate that your justice is taking place, you have to make it extreme and eternal, to compensate for the lack of evidence.

Jews invented this mental framework, Judaism, when they were slaves in Egypt. Apparently some event happened 2 millenniums ago that could be interpreted as mystic, the Lord had sent his son. This revived the mental framework of slaves in a new flavor, Christianity. Armed with the faith that dying for God ensured you an eternity of happiness, slaves rebelled, burning libraries or entire cities. There are records that the Library of Alexandria has been burned at least 4 times around the beginnings of Christianity, at least one of them with the order of a pope. All books of Etruscans have been destroyed by Christians, persistently for a millennium.

To cover up the destruction done by slaves/Christians, an imaginary monstrous external enemy was invented, the Huns, as well as a centuries long papyrus crisis that made it inevitable the destruction of some old books in order to write the new ones.

Facing repeated destructions, the people that were at the core of that civilization moved up in north, probably in many waves. And behind left the slaves/Christians, among which the Greeks.

Genes don't evolve that fast, so that in about 50 generations the northers to transform themselves from "hunter-gathers" (animals basically) in founders of the modern civilization.
The laws of Nature are such that genes don't degenerate, such that the people who run empires 50 generations ago (Greeks) now can't run a country.
And what's more, these two things can't happen simultaneously.

[Queen B]

I think you mean "original true ancient indo-europeans/greeks" versus "people who inhabit a country that is called greece in spite of having little to do with original greek speakers".
Of course we are concerned with impostor indo europeans sneaking their way into our legend.

No, I mean Northern Europeans give too much fucks about Greeks.Talking about DNA and stuff like that.
Unless you have DNA from ancient corpses and you have compared to modern Greek DNA and you have a clear result of we are speaking of way different people, then all that it is, is Northern Europeans giving too much fucks about Greeks.

[Breedingvariety]

Both sides believe in fairy tales. Then again, there's nothing but fairy tales on theapricity.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Proto-Greeks and Pre-Greeks acculturated to one another. R1a is a likelier candidate anyways.

How can r1a be more likely candidate when it is lower in frequency and strongly associated with the wrong language family?

[Bloodnigger]

^lol, nice conspiracy theory (mean altin)

Proto-greeks (the IE speakers) certainly belonged to an R1 clade but whether it was R1a or R1b or both, only further studies will show. Pre-Greeks (the original dwellers and founders of the minoan and helladic civilizations) were conquered and had the proto-greek language imposed on them, as conquerors have also done before. However, proto- and pre-greeks mixed during the rise of mycenean civilization and after the collapse of the bronze age and dawn of the greek dark ages with the foundation of city states, produced a homogenous genetic blend that has been so to today. That was according to anthropologists. Genetics are also starting to confirm that but now with Reich's r1b in Yamna and what have you, things are more complicated.

Before the IE migrations, the more to the north you went, the less populations you would find. Neolithic settlements have been found in quite large numbers in the south, especially the south east. Indo europeans would have an easier time geneticaly dominating a smaller population in the north than a much larger one further south. "Celtic-like" makes no sense as no one in europe is more than 50% indo-european genetically.

[Scholarios]

R1a is high on the steppe and the places immediate to them. It's highest among those whose language in contemporary times most closely resembles that of the PIE folk. It's found in corded ware skeletons and the kurgan corpses. It's in modern Indo-Iranian folk to a high degree. It disappears and fades the further we get from the Pontic steppe urheimat and the kurgans.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

^lol, nice conspiracy theory (mean altin)

Proto-greeks (the IE speakers) certainly belonged to an R1 clade but whether it was R1a or R1b or both, only further studies will show. Pre-Greeks (the original dwellers and founders of the minoan and helladic civilizations) were conquered and had the proto-greek language imposed on them, as conquerors have also done before. However, proto- and pre-greeks mixed during the rise of mycenean civilization and after the collapse of the bronze age and dawn of the greek dark ages with the foundation of city states, produced a homogenous genetic blend that has been so to today. That was according to anthropologists. Genetics are also starting to confirm that but now with Reich's r1b in Yamna and what have you, things are more complicated.

There's no r1a society that speaks an indo european language.

Before the IE migrations, the more to the north you went, the less populations you would find. Neolithic settlements have been found in quite large numbers in the south, especially the south east. Indo europeans would have an easier time geneticaly dominating a smaller population in the north than a much larger one further south. "Celtic-like" makes no sense as no one in europe is more than 50% indo-european genetically.

You mean there's no one who has YAMNAYA-like autosomals of more than 50%. It's a mystery however how this can grow larger the further from the heartland of r1b you get and maximizes in r1a populations however Now THAT is a conspiracy theory Your scenario could only work if r1b males took 0% of their mtdna with them, they killed off all their wives and took neolithic colony wives!

If you flip around and take the obvious choice, imagine that the neolithic colonizers are the invaders, and that the western mtdna they have actually comes from taking western wives. Then things actually start to make sense. Yamnaya crap is nothing to do with r1b except maybe very anciently, but more with r1a, and r1b didn't invade neolithic settled by outsiders and take their women, they were always like they are now. Anyway I have little doubt that's the case once all the bullshit propaganda is cut away, the greek language question is perhaps more difficult to decipher.

[Bloodnigger]

There's no r1a society that speaks an indo european language.



You mean there's no one who has YAMNAYA-like autosomals of more than 50%. It's a mystery however how this can grow larger the further from the heartland of r1b you get and maximizes in r1a populations however Now THAT is a conspiracy theory

If you flip around and take the obvious choice, imagine that the neolithic colonizers are the invaders, and that the western mtdna they have actually comes from taking western wives. Then things actually start to make sense. Yamnaya crap is nothing to do with r1b except maybe very anciently, but more with r1a, and r1b didn't invade neolithic settled by outsiders and take their women, they were always like they are now. Anyway I have little doubt that's the case once all the bullshit propaganda is cut away, the greek language question is perhaps more difficult to decipher.

What you say is right. The neolithic invasion was indeed that, an invasion, but it was not only men but also mt-dna that it brought. Whether non-neolithic mt-dna is due to survivors or was reintroduced by IEs of some sort, I don't know. However, the big change from the IE one is that it was a farming thus demographically far, far more powerful population than hunter gatherers and IE pastoralists. Wherever we have farming, we also have cities and wherever we have cities, we have a population and civilization boom.

We have very good evidence to believe that R1a came down during the IE invasions and now, with Reich, we have cause to believe the same for r1b too. According to anthropology, one group came down from the north and the other down through the caucasus, anatolia and what-have-you. It doesn't mean that they originated in anatolia, just that they passed through it. There is a nice study about armenians being a result of such old bronze age groups mixing between each other. My advice to you would be to wait for further results rather than try to draw your own with what little we know about r1b. Personally, I'd rather believe in genomes rather than languages. Visigoths conquered Spain but the Spanish speak latin. Turks conquered a mostly greek-speaking anatolia but they now speak a turkish language and are around 1/10th genetically turkish on average only.