Genocide and Germany

[Jarl]

At least no inhumane rapes, torturing, murder, thievery, humiliation, destruction, treason etc.

Rapes or mass-murder were commited mainly by deserters or Red Army soldiers. I have not come across stories of Polish civilians raping or murdering German civilians, even though I have read many accounts. Certainly incidents like those did happen among civilians too. But they were relatively rare. They were also commited on pro-Polish Masurians or Silesians. However, from the accounts I read the main whirlwind came with the armies. That was the time most raping, pillaging and murder occured. Everywhere there were bands of marauders terrorising the countryside.

Polish settlers came onto German lands in several waves afterwards. Thefts, humiliation happened indeed. But it was there during occupation, during interbellum and during XIX century Prussian-German Kulturkampf too.

I'm not saying Germans were angels, surely they were not, and there were conflicting interests, but to say Germans were the only ones to blame for the war and violence, especially in the case of Poland, is ridiculous.

If we would really follow this string, it would take us back to XIX century and the Congress of Vienna 1815. Duchy of Warsaw was abolished. Or even further back to 1795 and the last division of Poland between Russia, Prussia and Austria. It was a spiral of injustice indeed. Action brought reaction, and opression brought retribution.

[Jarl]

I meant BEFORE THE WAR obviously, in the last trials for a peaceful solution - with a fair compromise like Danzig and a Prussian corridor, just for having a connection with East Prussia, even if it would have been just an extraterritorial high- and railway.

The only reason why Poland got the corridor was because the allies wanted to weaken Germany, Poland was aggressive and they argued Poland needed an access to the sea, the people in question were never a question and more than a million Germans fled from the "tolerant Polish state" because of the oppression.

Still Germany was ready to make a fair compromise!

That is a difficult judgement for an uninformed person like me. If compromise was possible I do not know. I'd love to believe that it was only about ex-territorial railway/highway... But was this really a matter of life and death??? It does not seem so to me. I know times were different and the tensions were very high. This was a rather strange ultimatum at that time.

If they were so sure about it and everything was so fair, why no official referendum for all regions under an international commission?

In Greater Poland, Poles took arms en masse since the situation here was extremely hostile and Germans were in clear minority. There was no referendum, but the Powers let Germany keep most of the areas with German majority as Grenzmark Posen-Westpreussen. A similar case occured in Silesia, where pro-Polish locals took arms. Here however the settlement was different. Most area stayed with Germany, including some regions with Polish majority. Many people from Silesia swapped sides. Pro-Polish went to Polish Silesia, pro-German to the German part.


West Prussia - Corridor is a different story. There was indeed no referendum and the case was decided arbitrarily by the Entente on tha basis of ethnic majority. Most of West Prussia was Polish and German majority was clustered in Vistulean towns - Gdansk/Danzig, Tczew/Dirschau, Starogard, Grudziadz/Graudenz etc. For Poland it was not only the last chance to hold on to this piece of land before its germanisation, but also of utmost strategic importance. More here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Corridor


The decision was mainly due to:

- Polish ethnic majority

- strategic importance - acess to the sea


The country was extremely rural. Poland had to built a whole new harbour from scratch in Gdynia. Now definitely Germans lost some territory but for them it was mostly a matter of prestige. For Poland it was a matter of independence and viability - to which after 100 years of opression the nation had every right to...


It is true many Germans left the Corridor and Greater Poland after WW I, but on the other hand at least 150 000 came in there from mainland Germany as German settlers forcefully grafted onto Polish soil (grabbed from poor Polish farmers by the Prussian Colonial Comission).


Now you can't expect that people who actively participated in germanisation of the country, took land of expropriated Poles or beat the children in schools for speaking Polish would stay... They had to leave.


The country was in flames, people enraged. Greater Poland had to be freed by force, as the Germans would not give it up. Germany promised re-creation of the Kingdom of Poland in 1916, yet would not hold onto her promises. Ceratinly injustices were made. Not all the German families who had to leave were anti-Polish or champions of Kulturkampf, but this was the price they had to pay for living on a Polish soil that was occupied by Germans since 1815 - arena of germanisation and struggle between nationalisms.


I dont know how many left. But those 150 000 champions of Ostsiedlung filling their bellies and sitting on other peoples' property had to go. So did all the German troops, garrisons, soldiers and their families. Policemen, teachers, administration... But were they expelled? I don't think there were many forced expulsions after WW I. Most Germans left because of Uprising and fightings, later they did not want to live in Poland. Yet majority still remained.

[Agrippa]

Even the rather anti-German Wikipedia article states about the expulsion of German people in the East (not just Poland):

The movement of Germans involved a total of at least 12 million people, with some sources putting the figure at 14 million, and was the largest movement or transfer of any single ethnic population in modern history.

The events have been variously described as population transfer, ethnic cleansing or democide.

Many deaths were attributable to the flight and expulsions, with estimates ranging from 500,000 to 2.0 million, where the higher figures include deaths from famine and disease as well as from violent acts. Many German civilians were also sent to internment and labor camps.

Almost the complete male German population remaining east of the Oder and Neisse, numbering several tens of thousands, were arrested as "Hitlerists" by the Soviet secret police, NKVD.[67] Only a minority were Nazi party members.

Subsequently, most remaining Germans were expelled from pre-war Poland and the 'recovered territories' (formerly eastern Germany) to the territory west of the Oder-Neisse Line. Some, prior to their expulsion, were used as forced labor in communist-administered camps[40] such as those run by Salomon Morel and Czesław Gęborski. These included Central Labour Camp Jaworzno, Central Labour Camp Potulice, Łambinowice and Zgoda labour camp. Besides these large camps, numerous other forced labor, punitive and internment camps, urban ghettos and detention centres, sometimes consisting only of a small cellar, were set up.[76] Germans considered "indispensable" for the Polish economy were retained until the early 1950s,[76] though virtually all had left by 1960.[75] Close to 165,000 Germans were transported to the Soviet Union for forced labor, where most of them perished.[76] According to Reichling [80] 520 000 were transported, 185 000 of them died.

About the personal conduct of Poles:

Some engaged in looting and various crimes, including murders, beatings and rapes, against Germans

Source:

Matthew J. Gibney, Randall Hansen, Immigration and Asylum: From 1900 to the Present, 2005

Also:

In territories that belonged to Poland before the war, Germans were treated even more harshly than in the former German territories[62]. Deprived of any citizen rights, many were used as forced labor prior to their expulsion, sometimes for years, in labor battalions or in labour camps[63][64] such as Glaz, Milecin, Gronowo, Sikawa, Central Labour Camp Jaworzno, Central Labour Camp Potulice, Łambinowice (run by Czesław Gęborski), Zgoda labour camp and others. The death toll was between twenty and fifty percent[65], and as the guards were not paid regular salary they forcefully extracted their wage from the inmates

Zayas states that "in many internment camps no relief from outside was permitted. In some camps relatives would bring packages and deliver them to the Polish guards, who regularly plundered the contents and delivered only the remains, if any. Frequently, these relatives were so ill-treated that they never returned. Internees who came to claim their packages were also mistreated by the guards, who insisted the internees should speak Polish, even if they were Germans born in German-speaking Silesia or Pomerania

After the Potsdam Conference, Poland was officially in charge of the territories east of the Oder Neisse line. Despite the fact that article 8 of Potsdam agreement from August 2, 1945 stated that "population transfer" should be performed in ordered and humane manner, and should not commence until after the creation of an expulsion plan approved by the Allied Control Council, the expulsions continued without rules and were associated with many criminal acts.

Another problem the Germans and, to a lesser extent, even the newly arrived Poles were facing was an enormous crime wave, most notably theft and rape, committed by gangs not only consisting of regular criminals but also Soviet soldiers, deserters or former forced laborers (Ostarbeiter), coming back from the west[86]. In Upper Silesia, a party official complained about some Polish security forces and militia raping and pillaging the German population and a general loss of sense for right and wrong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_...r_World_War_II

And this are just the rather objective to Anti-German descriptions of the mere facts, just hear victims of the atrocities and what the Poles and Czechs did to them and how many died...

Also with some "neighbour stories" - even though asocial scum, militias, Communists and Jews were highly responsible for the atrocities.

That is a difficult judgement for an uninformed person like me. If compromise was possible I do not know. I'd love to believe that it was only about ex-territorial railway/highway... But was this really a matter of life and death??? It does not seem so to me. I know times were different and the tensions were very high. This was a rather strange ultimatum at that time.

In fact, the Poles treated the Germans like the Israelis treat the Palestinians right now, thats really comparable.

The major difference is just that unlike the Palestinians, the Germans had a strong nation which could force the Poles to comply, if they don't want to.

The Poles didn't want to, like I said because they already planned the West expansion and Britain-USA wanted no German sphere of interest in all of Eastern Europe, but destroy it, because it was an independent power and freed itself from the plutocratic rule - no gold standard, no dependence from the international stock exchange, expanding trade and influence in America, Asia and especially East-South East Europe.

They wanted to destroy that German approach, "Nazi or not Nazi", "Hitler or no Hitler" - they wanted their Capitalist rule over the World and knew very well, that National Socialist Germany was a greater threat to them than Bolshevik Russia under Stalin.

That's it, or why else did they declare war only on Germany but not on the Soviet Union, even though the Soviet Union annexed and/or attacked Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Eastern Poland, Bessarabia etc...

And Poland was asked by Germany: Are you our enemy?

Of course it was also about Danzig and the corridor, that was a question of national pride and souvereignty, to get AT LEAST THIS! But as you can see, with this great and generous offer, Germany was ready for a fair compromise.

Poland said yes and that they will conquer Germany with the help of Great Britain and France. That's why the war started, because the Poles were abused to start the war with Germany - with little chance of success, though the allies thought Poland would make it some time longer and weaken Germany more...

As for the ethnic majorities: There are different statistics and many areas were definitely pred. German and directly at the German border, so that it wouldn't have been any problem to leave them with Germany.

The Poles just wanted to get as much from Germany as possible, regardless of the consequences or inhabitants!

The country was in flames, people enraged. Greater Poland had to be freed by force, as the Germans would not give it up. Germany promised re-creation of the Kingdom of Poland in 1916, yet would not hold onto her promises.

First of all: What was Poland before? It was a Russian province!

And the Germans finally helped the Poles to form their new state!

The Poles thanked it the way we discussed it - by taking away German lands!

Not all the German families who had to leave were anti-Polish or champions of Kulturkampf, but this was the price they had to pay for living on a Polish soil that was occupied by Germans since 1815 - arena of germanisation and struggle between nationalisms.

In the end, the Poles in Germany and Austria had a much better life than in Poland! And yes, the authorities wanted to make them "good Germans", many Poles are Polonised Germans too as well, but even though that was "not fair" to the Poles, the situation in the 1st World War was generally speaking not hostile to the Poles and with German help they founded their state - the rest...

If Pilsudski would have ruled Poland, chances would have been higher for a treaty between Germany and Poland, and peace secured between those two nations.
I'm pretty sure about that.

As for the German-Polish cooperation, compare with the Polish Legions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Legions_in_WWI

[Jarl]

Source:

Also:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_...r_World_War_II

And this are just the rather objective to Anti-German descriptions of the mere facts, just hear victims of the atrocities and what the Poles and Czechs did to them and how many died...

Also with some "neighbour stories" - even though asocial scum, militias, Communists and Jews were highly responsible for the atrocities.

Sure. But you need to remember that all prisons all police forces in Poland were run by the NKVD. Some camps were run directly by the Soviets. Others by "Poles". Ultimately it was all totally steered from Moscow. Just like the whole country and the puppet government. Even within the "Polish Army", half of the officers were simply Russians.


And like it says:

Another problem the Germans and, to a lesser extent, even the newly arrived Poles were facing was an enormous crime wave, most notably theft and rape, committed by gangs not only consisting of regular criminals but also Soviet soldiers, deserters or former forced laborers (Ostarbeiter), coming back from the west[86]. In Upper Silesia, a party official complained about some Polish security forces and militia raping and pillaging the German population and a general loss of sense for right and wrong

Marauding bands of soldiers often terrorised both sides. Do you think there were no rapes or thefts in the East where Poles were expelled from? Poles filled the NKVD prisons too. In smaller proportions than the Germans, yet still substantial.


People like Geborski or Salomon Morel were pawns. The camps, the police the whole force was run by people like Bierut - people who have 20-30 year gaps in their biographies, several birthplaces and whom noone really knows where they came from. Or Moczar half Ukrainian Bolshevik and NKVD agent (finished his NKVD training in Gorky in 1941). Some like Rokossowski or Popławski could hardly speak Polish. In all cases they were trusted NKVD agents and Soviets.


Definitely there was enmity and there was unrest. After 5 years of war what one could expect? However I really do not think civilians were the main group involved in serious atrocities like murder or rape.





Polish 1st Army:

Almost 40% of officers and technical specialists were Soviets[1], while for command staff and training officers the proportion reached 70 to 85%.


You think the Soviets allowed any POLISH force to run lose without control? Don't be naive. They held the whole country tightly by the neck. AK soldiers were as ruthlessly persecuted as Nazis.


And in the end... the issue of borders and expulsions was decided by the big three. Mainly by Stalin who even sketched the maps by his own hand. And this was it. No matter what would then happen. This was the political objective given by the Politburo and it was no Moczar's or Bierut's role to ask question. Their role was to supervise it and do it. Or get a bullet in the head (which Bierut got anyway in the end).

[Wintersun]

Polacks suck.

[Äike]

Genocide is bad, my people have suffered from it quite recently.

[spearofperun]

highly effective dead men dont walk, dont talk, dont breed and they dont kill. Tolerance on the other look to the ex yugo and see what it gets you. instead of you being the one doing the genocide the oppostie happens your people get genocided.

as far a germans go they can kill all the jews and gypsys they want good for them. i applaud it. but when they started killing slavics retaliation is highly justified.

[AndreasMeyer]

I have read a certiain website advertised by Zyklop recently:

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scr...ivesindex.html


But since I don't like double-measures and too much of shameless finger pointing at others... I think before we move to blaming lets carefully look at the whole image. Here is another thread from the series of inconvenient subjects, after "Polish concentration camps" and "Video of Czech atrocities":





A German policeman shoots individual Jewish women who remain alive in the ravine after the mass execution. (1942).




Ukrainian Jews who were forced to undress before they were massacred by Einsatzgruppe detachments.




German police and Ukrainian collaborators in civilian clothes look on as Jewish women are forced to undress before their execution





Mizocz Ghetto Ukraine




A Latvian policeman leads a group of Jewish women to the execution site in Latvia.




Liepaja, Latvia




Children in concentration camp













German soldier shooting a woman with a child










Execution of Poles by Einsatzkommando

And you verified those dubious pictures void of any probative value, right?

May I see how you've done that?