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Thread: Discussion of Irish genetics thread

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    Default Discussion of Irish genetics thread

    I have talked about Irish genetics a lot in a previous thread, but the thread itself had little to do with Ireland, I figure I should make a new thread specifically for discussion of Irish genetics.

    I want to start the thread by asking people who know more than me, why are Irish so different phenotypically from people from say countries like Germany, the Netherlands, Austria etc. do not try to deny, the Irish are a different looking people.

    Also, I want there to be discussion about the Basque connection in this thread, as I am really curious about that. Check these:
    http://rhesusnegative.com/celts-basques.htm
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/sc...nted=all&_r=1&
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/1256894.stm
    http://hubpages.com/hub/Irish-Blood-Genetic-Identity


    According to BBC and New York times the Irish are more closely related genetically to the Basques, than anyone else.

    "Research into Irish DNA at the beginning of the twenty-first century suggests that the early inhabitants of Ireland were not directly descended from the Keltoi of central Europe. In fact, the closest genetic relatives of the Irish in Europe are to be found in the north of Spain in the region known as the Basque Country. These same ancestors are shared to an extent with the people of Britain - especially the Scottish."

    Old Irish "myths" speak of a dark-skinned people who inhabited Ireland before the arrival of the Celts, perhaps these people were Iberians? The Romans described the Iberians as dark-skinned, and they also identified the Welsh that way, and even thought the Welsh were descended from Iberians because of dark skin and curly hair. Red hair gene also supposedly comes from the old Iberians.

    I just want to ask, genetically what are the Irish, really? It seems like the original Irish were related to old Iberians somehow, and thus related to todays Basques, but I mean modern Irish. How much of this old Iberian blood do modern Irish have? I have Irish ancestors who are pretty dark, so I am curious why there are dark Irish people - maybe these people just have more of that old Iberian blood in them?

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    There are some Iberian-like phenotypes too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    I have talked about Irish genetics a lot in a previous thread, but the thread itself had little to do with Ireland, I figure I should make a new thread specifically for discussion of Irish genetics.

    I want to start the thread by asking people who know more than me, why are Irish so different phenotypically from people from say countries like Germany, the Netherlands, Austria etc. do not try to deny, the Irish are a different looking people.

    Also, I want there to be discussion about the Basque connection in this thread, as I am really curious about that. Check these:
    http://rhesusnegative.com/celts-basques.htm
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/sc...nted=all&_r=1&
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/1256894.stm
    http://hubpages.com/hub/Irish-Blood-Genetic-Identity


    According to BBC and New York times the Irish are more closely related genetically to the Basques, than anyone else.

    "Research into Irish DNA at the beginning of the twenty-first century suggests that the early inhabitants of Ireland were not directly descended from the Keltoi of central Europe. In fact, the closest genetic relatives of the Irish in Europe are to be found in the north of Spain in the region known as the Basque Country. These same ancestors are shared to an extent with the people of Britain - especially the Scottish."

    Old Irish "myths" speak of a dark-skinned people who inhabited Ireland before the arrival of the Celts, perhaps these people were Iberians? The Romans described the Iberians as dark-skinned, and they also identified the Welsh that way, and even thought the Welsh were descended from Iberians because of dark skin and curly hair. Red hair gene also supposedly comes from the old Iberians.

    I just want to ask, genetically what are the Irish, really? It seems like the original Irish were related to old Iberians somehow, and thus related to todays Basques, but I mean modern Irish. How much of this old Iberian blood do modern Irish have? I have Irish ancestors who are pretty dark, so I am curious why there are dark Irish people - maybe these people just have more of that old Iberian blood in them?
    there is no Basque connection to Ireland. .

    and I don't know why there would be.

    that stuff is seriously outdated and no mainstream geneticist goes by that anymore. For a lot of good reasons.

    whatever Y-DNA R1b is found in both populations has to do with the Atlantic Bronze Age and there might be some other gene flow from other things like the Megalithic culture migrations that are common all over Atlantic Europe. From Iberia to Ireland, Wales, Britain etc...

    It's not even the same Y-DNA R1b subclade found in most Irish people and most Basques. And in the case of Basques. it's just a founder effect. And from being isolated, which is why the percentages are so high.

    Maps that show the difference and origins of Y-DNA R1b-L21 in the British Isles and Y-DNA R1b-DF27 more common in Iberia, and including the Basques/Gascony
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

    -'How did the Basques become R1b'-
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...come_R1b.shtml
    Last edited by Weedman; 05-06-2015 at 03:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    I have talked about Irish genetics a lot in a previous thread, but the thread itself had little to do with Ireland, I figure I should make a new thread specifically for discussion of Irish genetics.

    I want to start the thread by asking people who know more than me, why are Irish so different phenotypically from people from say countries like Germany, the Netherlands, Austria etc. do not try to deny, the Irish are a different looking people.

    Also, I want there to be discussion about the Basque connection in this thread, as I am really curious about that. Check these:
    http://rhesusnegative.com/celts-basques.htm
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/sc...nted=all&_r=1&
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/1256894.stm
    http://hubpages.com/hub/Irish-Blood-Genetic-Identity


    According to BBC and New York times the Irish are more closely related genetically to the Basques, than anyone else.

    "Research into Irish DNA at the beginning of the twenty-first century suggests that the early inhabitants of Ireland were not directly descended from the Keltoi of central Europe. In fact, the closest genetic relatives of the Irish in Europe are to be found in the north of Spain in the region known as the Basque Country. These same ancestors are shared to an extent with the people of Britain - especially the Scottish."

    Old Irish "myths" speak of a dark-skinned people who inhabited Ireland before the arrival of the Celts, perhaps these people were Iberians? The Romans described the Iberians as dark-skinned, and they also identified the Welsh that way, and even thought the Welsh were descended from Iberians because of dark skin and curly hair. Red hair gene also supposedly comes from the old Iberians.

    I just want to ask, genetically what are the Irish, really? It seems like the original Irish were related to old Iberians somehow, and thus related to todays Basques, but I mean modern Irish. How much of this old Iberian blood do modern Irish have? I have Irish ancestors who are pretty dark, so I am curious why there are dark Irish people - maybe these people just have more of that old Iberian blood in them?
    The original 'celts' are really nothing to do with Ireland.

    Here is a thread about their physical anthropology:

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...y-of-the-Celts

    Basically the celts, as well as the italics, almost always have a nordid phenotype, when you measure their skulls.

    That type is a reduced, germanic type that is basically nonexistent in Irish.



    Haplotypes really are the best way to see relation in people. And the subtypes don't matter that much. Things like hair and eye color would have been developed WAAAAAY before these haplotypes did, and originally the population would have been largely homogenous. That is the differences between populations are not random mutations. Eye and hair color don't randomly mutate that fast! They mutated just one time and mutation spread from there.

    Any differences come from mixing to other groups (that have other clades), not from genetic mutation differences between the original groups after they split.

    So you can see by that map the germanic and nordic crept into the british isles from the east. The Irish are also very close to the basque. In the south and west of iberia, dark skin and hair and eye genes crept in with north african mixture.

    The basques are pretty light though, if unmixed, just like the Irish. A lot of the lightening especailly of hair comes from germanics and nordics, it's nothing to do with the irish before they came.

    Anyway, some people who have serious issues will have a big phobia to be related to people they see as dark, but obviously basques are closer to irish than Irish are to nordics and germanics. But the core element, the original people (yes the same people at one point a few thousand years ago) is not a dark one, it's very irishlike.
    Out Of Africa Theory is a lie.
    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...88#post3431588
    And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

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    just a side note-

    independently and in and of themselves, the genes that affect eye and hair color have nothing to do with genetic mutations in regards to Y-DNA or any other genetic ancestry.

    genes like MCR1 have to do with that, and that's not on any Y-DNA or any other ancestral genetic material anyway

    the genes that cause hair, eye color or even skin tone, are independent of the genes that show ancestral genetic material or anything to do with Y-DNA, mtDNA or autosomal genetic ancestry.

    the only way you can tell if Basques have any genetic ancestry with or are closely genetically related to, Irish people, even from ancient times, is with autosomal genetic testing, and Y-DNA, and mtDNA testing, between the 2 populations.

    if they're related populations then they should have some shared ancestral genetic ancestry material in common with each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weedman View Post
    just a side note-

    independently and in and of themselves, the genes that affect eye and hair color have nothing to do with genetic mutations in regards to Y-DNA or any other genetic ancestry.

    genes like MCR1 have to do with that, and that's not on any Y-DNA or any other ancestral genetic material anyway

    the genes that cause hair, eye color or even skin tone, are independent of the genes that show ancestral genetic material or anything to do with Y-DNA, mtDNA or autosomal genetic ancestry.

    the only way you can tell if Basques have any genetic ancestry with or are closely genetically related to, Irish people, even from ancient times, is with autosomal genetic testing, and Y-DNA, and mtDNA testing, between the 2 populations.

    if they're related populations then they should have some shared ancestral genetic ancestry material in common with each other.
    The autosomals are not much use for this, because they are very similar to start with, but the autosomals say the same story in this case anyway.

    Hair and eye color are not caused by y-dna but they are absolutely ASSOCIATED with them. At some point each clade's parent was all one population, and for a clade to have formed and become the majority they would have to be a closed, homogenous population at that time. So all the r1b people were all the same originally in basic looks, any changes after that come from mixing with other groups.
    Out Of Africa Theory is a lie.
    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...88#post3431588
    And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weedman View Post
    there is no Basque connection to Ireland. .

    and I don't know why there would be.

    that stuff is seriously outdated and no mainstream geneticist goes by that anymore. For a lot of good reasons.

    whatever Y-DNA R1b is found in both populations has to do with the Atlantic Bronze Age and there might be some other gene flow from other things like the Megalithic culture migrations that are common all over Atlantic Europe. From Iberia to Ireland, Wales, Britain etc...

    It's not even the same Y-DNA R1b subclade found in most Irish people and most Basques. And in the case of Basques. it's just a founder effect. And from being isolated, which is why the percentages are so high.

    Maps that show the difference and origins of Y-DNA R1b-L21 in the British Isles and Y-DNA R1b-DF27 more common in Iberia, and including the Basques/Gascony
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

    -'How did the Basques become R1b'-
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...come_R1b.shtml
    The 'Basque connection' is the fact that Basque and Irish are close, so there is a 'Basque connection'. I'm not saying the two are the same people, but close to each other. Fact is that the Irish are closer to the Basques, than the Germans, Nords, etc. they came from the east as Melonhead says. 'Celts' and Germanics are pretty close, no one is trying to deny that. But the Basque themselves are more close to Irish people than people from Sweden or Finland. They are definitely closer than some people have been saying, I'll say that much. You can't tell me otherwise, the facts are on my side here. You are right about most things, people act as if I am disagreeing with you and Grace on everything, quite the opposite really, I'm on your guys' sides. I just think Melonhead has one good little point that you guys are ignoring. Everything else he says is bullshit.

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    I wonder if Bede's idea that Ireland was south of Britain and close to Spain has anything to do with this.

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    I can tell you that, genetically, the Northern Irish are the same as the Scottish; we don't have the facts about the southern Irish yet but it is unlikely they will be much different to the northern. Maybe more like the Welsh. If anything, they have a strong connection with French Britanny people, not Basques or Iberians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neon Knight View Post
    I can tell you that, genetically, the Northern Irish are the same as the Scottish; we don't have the facts about the southern Irish yet but it is unlikely they will be much different to the northern. Maybe more like the Welsh. If anything, they have a strong connection with French Britanny people, not Basques or Iberians.
    TBH I will always believe the Irish and Basques are super close to each other. Autosomal is not the way to tell who is close to each other. They both have high amount of R1b and at some point R1b were their own homogenous people. Irish and Basque are closest to the old R1b homogenous group. No way they are closer to Nordics. Nordics aren't related at all, they had no R1b until some of them mixed with other groups.

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