So why aren't Circassians, Georgians, and Chechens considered Europeans by a lot of this forum?

[Berahthraban]

My point is that South Europeans are more Near Eastern/farmer (whatever you call it) admixed than Caucasians are, contrary to what most people -including you- think and say. National Geographic's ancestry composition is terrible compared to what we have on Gedmatch.

1. Are you out of your mind? I have repeatedly said that it is awful, and I even said that it was inaccurate now.
2. They barely have any WHG which is what makes them so "woggy". Sicilians have twice the amount.

You seem to have ignored my entire post. Turks forming a cluster near the Caucasus doesn't mean they are identical autosomally. They appear closer on PCAs than they do on Gedmatch's oracle. For example, a half South Italian half Uzbek person would probably plot within Lezgin cluster despite being totally different than Lezgin people. PCAs are ok, but gedmatch's oracle is much better at determing a population distance to other populations.

1. No, I just didn't want the maps all over the place.
2. Not the exact same proportions, but when added together, roughly identical, yes. You are free to link something from gedmatch, but be aware that most have close to zero precision, when Irish people get Czech and Hungarian, I get Dutch or Ukrainian etc.

[Imamudin]

1. Are you out of your mind? I have repeatedly said that it is awful, and I even said that it was inaccurate now.
2. They barely have any WHG which is what makes them so "woggy". Sicilians have twice the amount.



1. No, I just didn't want the maps all over the place.
2. Not the exact same proportions, but when added together, roughly identical, yes. You are free to link something from gedmatch, but be aware that most have close to zero precision, when Irish people get Czech and Hungarian, I get Dutch or Ukrainian etc.

Who is woggy?

[user_]

This so funny, when people on this forum consider North Caucasus European, just because they live on the Northern slopes of Caucasus, and Georgians not Europeans, cause they live on the South Slopes.
First travel to Chechnya, Dagestan and than travel to Georgia, to see the difference in all aspects and than decide who looks more Euro

[Petalpusher]

My point is that South Europeans are more Near Eastern/farmer (whatever you call it) admixed than Caucasians are, contrary to what most people -including you- think and say. National Geographic's ancestry composition is terrible compared to what we have on Gedmatch.

If you want to make real comparison, it's Basal Eurasian. Lezgin are in the same ballpark than Greeks/Tuscans/Albanians, the difference is their BE is more Iran_N than in Europe but it's really the same stuff that splitted apart. On the other hand they don't have much WHG.



Greek
Basal 42,25

Lezgin
Basal 41,83

Italian_North
Basal 40,48

(From the upcoming K7)

[Danishmend]

2. Not the exact same proportions, but when added together, roughly identical, yes. You are free to link something from gedmatch, but be aware that most have close to zero precision, when Irish people get Czech and Hungarian, I get Dutch or Ukrainian etc.

Gedrosia-DNA calculators are terrible, at least for European populations, but there are pretty accurate gedmatch calculators. MDLP, Eurogenes and even some outdated Dodecad calculators work much better than Gedrosia calculators.

I don't think I can find any individual result with zero distance, but I can use Turkish average.


Eurogenes K8, East-Central Anatolian Turkish Average (Cappadocian samples)


Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Turkish @ 0,80873
2 Azeri @ 5,424639
3 Ossetian @ 8,44629
4 Kurdish @ 8,963052
5 Iranian @ 9,393984
6 Adygei @ 9,600197
7 Abkhasian @ 9,699285
8 North_Ossetian @ 10,11616
9 Balkar @ 10,160396
10 Kabardin @ 10,464718
11 Kumyk @ 11,105368
12 Georgian_Laz @ 11,284381
13 Georgian_Imer @ 12,151084
14 Armenian @ 12,618906
15 Chechen @ 12,922456
16 Lebanese_Muslim @ 13,28911
17 Georgian_Jewish @ 13,68917
18 Ashkenazi @ 13,698742
19 Sephardic_Jewish @ 13,812133
20 Syrian @ 14,16589
163 iterations.


As you can see Georgians are far from the Turkish average, this is what all gedmatch calculators say.

2. They barely have any WHG which is what makes them so "woggy". Sicilians have twice the amount.

What they lack in WHG they make up for in ANE.

North Caucasians have more ANE than South Europeans (22-28% vs 0-9%)
South Europeans have more WHG than North Caucasians (19-34% vs 2-11%)
South Europeans have more Near Eastern than North Caucasians (60-67% vs %55-60)

Genetics aside, North Caucasians have higher rates of light hair and coloured eyes than South Europeans.

[Berahthraban]

If you want to make real comparison, it's Basal Eurasian. Lezgin are in the same ballpark than Greeks/Tuscans/Albanians, the difference is their BE is more Iran_N than in Europe but it's really the same stuff that splitted apart. On the other hand they don't have much WHG.



Greek
Basal 42,25

Lezgin
Basal 41,83

Italian_North
Basal 40,48

(From the upcoming K7)

Would you say this map is accurate or not? When it comes to where they plot

[Petalpusher]

Would you say this map is accurate or not? When it comes to where they plot

Generally it's accurate. So one could wonder how they could plot here if they are as much basal than south to central Europeans, it's just the lack of WHG, in a way they also have too much ANE related ancestry. If they were swapping some of it for some WHG they would be Bulgarian,Tuscan or even N.Italian.

[Shepherd]

[Myanthropologies]

Generally it's accurate. So one could wonder how they could plot here if they are as much basal than south to central Europeans, it's just the lack of WHG, in a way they also have too much ANE related ancestry.

Well in actuality, PCA plots only tell part of the picture. That's why they all look so different. Your best bet is some admixture calculators and d-stat runs. Even admixture calculators aren't always accurate, that's why no scientific studies ever use them. They often proxy component that are something else, and they don't weigh out how related certain components are to each other, they just compare score numbers of several labeled groups between modern population. However, admixture calculators still give a better picture than PCAs.


Also, that's pretty much every non european caucasoids problem of not clustering within the euro spectrum. They either lack the WHG or have too much of a foreign component.

[War Chef]

Higher ANE than Europeans, so no