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Thread: Setu People – The Oldest Settled People In Europe

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    Default Setu People – The Oldest Settled People In Europe

    Setu People – The Oldest Settled People In Europe

    South-East Estonia at the coasts of lake Pihkva there live a special people – the Setus. The land of Setus (in Estonian Setumaa and in Setu called Setomaa) is thought to be the most far-away place in Estonia and the Setus are also different from the so-called average Estonians. There are about 10 000 Setus. They speak Setu language, which differs from the standard Estonian like for example Norwegian differs from Swedish.

    Celebrating All Souls’ Day at Petseri graveyard. Food on graves.

    If Estonians are mainly Lutherans then Setu follow the Russian orthodox/ Greek-Catholic orthodox religion. They have been strong believers for a rather long period of time. For instance during the Soviet regime when all religious activities were banned by the state the Setus decided to build new wooden churches. When they could not build the church during the day they would do it undercover of night and when the officials tore the construction down they would build it back the night after. Etc. Even today the monastery of Petseri is an important Russian orthodox monastery with its legendary sandstone caves. There are about 80 monks in this monastery now.
    But what makes the Setus a special people is not so much their religion but their ancient oral cultural heritage. The Setus remember their ancient customs, folk songs, tales, dances and rituals remarkably better than all other regions in Estonia. A subsistantial amount of folk song texts in the Estonian Literature Museum have been recorded in Setumaa. The remarkable aspect here is that the songs sung by some illiterate Setu singers have been estimated to be over 5000 years old and several experts claim the Setu people to be the oldest settled people in Europe – they have not participated in any migrations.
    Next to Christianity the Setu people have held on to their ancient pagan beliefs. Until quite recently it would have been no surprise to find a primeval wooden statue of fertility god Peko hidden somewhere near to the picture of Jesus. Until the beginning of the 20th century the Setus made blood sacrifices to Peko in secret rituals – full-grown men would fight until blood is spilled. Worshipping the souls of dead ancestors is still a vital practice. In the1970s I myself had the opportunity to observe the Setus celebrate All Souls’ Day. It took place at the cemetery. Ancestors’ graves were turned into dinner tables with food and drinks on them. The Setus ate and drank there and offered to visitors, leaving a meal also for the dead ones as they left. A real primeval experience as I recall it now. By the way until the 1950s the Setus accompanied their work in the fields with communal singing.

    Crisis of Identity
    The problem of Setus was that the Russians have always tried to indoctrinate them and the Estonians on the other had consider them Estonian. With independence of Estonia in 1918 according to the Russian-Estonian border treaty Setumaa belonged to Estonia. At conferences held in 1920s and 1930s about the Setus the general attitude was that “Setus should become Estonian”. And actions were taken by the government to reach this goal.
    The identity of Setus was once again put on trial during the Soviet regime. When in 1950s under the rule of Stalin private farms were turned into faming collectives many Setus found themselves to be unneeded at their homes and wandered out to cities. And the more wealthy farmers were deported to Siberia. All through the Soviet time children in Setumaa had to learn in Estonian or in Russian language while both Estonians and Setus lived in the constant fear that all education will be converted to Russian. The state was meant to be a melting pot subsuming all cultural differences. Setu language was only used at home amongst family. People would even be ashamed of their language hiding their Setu origin for decades.
    The new border treaty between Estonia and Russia (ratified by Estonian Parliament on the 22nd of June 2005) was one of the most recent blows on the Setu people. During the independent republic of Estonia all of Setumaa belonged to Estonia. In the Soviet Union they were a part of one Russian county but there was no border between Estonia and Russia then. But the new Estonian-Russian border runs through Setumaa, dividing the people in two. Petseri, the biggest town in Setumaa lies now in Russia. When before all the roads lead to Petseri, these roads now have no entry signs. This has created a virtual wall between the Setu people analogous to the Berlin wall. There have been cases when an emergency car had to drive across a field to reach the accident, a bus-driver emptied the tyres of his bus to be able to cross under a railway, several people have applied for a multiple entry visa for Russia to be able to visit the graves of their parents etc.

    The Rebirth
    Rather late but finally time has become more supportive for the Setu people. Estonian republic no longer follows the strategy of state being a melting pot but rather a salad bowl where different people are able to preserve their origins and cultural differences. Being different is now an advantage rather than something to be ashamed of. A Setu support group has been created in the Estonian parliament. Six conferences on Setu issues have contributed a great deal to the revitalization of Setumaa. Even ideas such as cultural autonomy for Setumaa, a separate Setu law etc. have been suggested but not broadly accepted.
    August 20. 1994 Setumaa was declared a kingdom. This date is considered the event of rebirth for Setumaa. Even though the monarchy lasted for one day only it captured the attention of whole Estonia. On this day besides the king, also the king’s singer, giant-hero, glove and belt-knitter, baker, brewer and other officials were elected. People also decided upon the earthly embodiment of the mythical king Peko, they sang the hymn of Setumaa and performed ancient rituals. Supposedly some Finnish people in eastern part of Norway also declare their kingdom for one day every year. Finnish people have also shown great interest in the Setus.
    The biggest highlight of the Setu Kingdom Days is leelo – a primordial way of singing which has regained popularity amongst the Setu people. Choirs have appeared uniting the old and the young generations of singers. Leelo is a way of singing where a soloist is singing a verse which is then repeated polyphonically by the entire choir. When hearing leelo for the first time it might sound as strange as for example the joig of the Saamis in Finland. In any case the aim of leelo is not bel canto or beautiful singing but expressivity. The soloist can be improvising – singing about what he or she sees or thinks at the moment. By the way in the Soviet time some leelo singers served a political order singing about the greatness of Stalin and communism in leelo- form. A more absurd situation would be difficult to imagine.
    Setu language is no longer a matter of shame but of pride. A newspaper called “Setomaa” is being published now, several radio stations send programs in Setu language, one can join Setu portals and mailing lists on the internet. Schools are using study books and literature in Setu, children study about the cultural history of Setumaa, stage plays in Setu language etc.

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    I suppose that the relationship between Estonians "proper" and Setos is akin to the relationship between the Finns and East/Orthodox Karelians before and during WW II. Also the Finns tried to Finnicize, in some cases Lutheranize, the East Karelians.

    In recent years I've come to the conclusion that it was the Protestant reformation which destroyed the unique cultural and religious heritage of the Baltic Finnish nations that lived within its reach. I've been reading a book about the interwar period in Finland, I kind of "prelude" to the wars, and the writer makes the same conclusion as he talks about visiting Orthodox mass and generally touring the Orthodox areas of the lost Karelian territories.

    The epic poetry that was used for the Kalevala for example was almost exclusively collected from non-Protestant Baltic Finnish areas, and it also seems to me that that the Orthodox Baltic Finns have also managed to maintain a far closer connection to their cultural heritage and sense of community.

    Perhaps this would deserve a topic of its own, perhaps in the Academic Baltic Finnish Society.
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    esaima
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    Thanks to Karl to this interesting thread.
    Nobody knows the exact number of Setus, because officially they are Estonians. But as far as i know according 1934 nose count they were counted as a special ethnicity and then the number was 15000.
    Today Setus live mostly outside of their county (or in fact there is no county now) and among the South-East Estonians and are pretty "Estonianized" but the number of them can be the same than it was before ww2.

    The language they speak is the South-East Estonian dialect(or language).There is no special Setu language.At least i can understand "Setu language" as well because i know South-Eastern dialect (eh, not so well to be honest).There is no difference between the language of South-Eastern Estonians and the the language of Setus.The difference is only historical and the religion has been different, imo.

    But sometimes the Setus are counted as a special ethnic group-at this map for example



    Peko- the God

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    Formation of the Seto area.

    The research of the earliest history of Setomaa, as regarded from the aspect of Seto people, is still in the initial stage. According to the latest archaeological finds the area of Setomaa has been inhabited for as long as 8 400 years. The earliest known dwelling site of the Stone Age was found on the territory of the village of Meremäe. Other settlements of ancient inhabitants were found on the shores of the Bay of Värska, in the environs of Izborsk (Irboska) and at Lesgi, on the slopes of the valley of the Optyok River. The ancestors of the people speaking the Võro-Seto dialect or - according to the latest researches - the Southern-Estonian language, belonged to the Balto-Finnic eastern tribes who, during the first millennium inhabited both shores of Lakes Pihkva and Peipsi, also the areas to the east and south-east of these lakes and the environs of the Velikaya River. In old chronicles they have been mentioned probably under the name of the Chudes. Seto people are their lineal descendants. The land of the Chudes was crossed by several important waterways and trade routes with the largest centres in Pskov, Izborsk and Rõuge. In the 9th century, in 862 these lands were occupied by the kings of the Vikings. Together with the Vikings the Chudes were probably involved in the formation of the Old-Russian Power and the conquest of Kiev, but from the 11th and 12th centuries gradually forfeited their domains and authority. Of the ancient Chudeland only the area between the Piusa River and Irboska (Izborsk) preserved. It is supposed that the Setos have retained the original culture and the intellectual and material heritage of the Chudes. In the 10-13th centuries, Christianity in the form of Orthodoxy reached Setomaa. Several ancient headers have preserved from that time. Large-scale Christianization in this area was associated with the establishment of Pechorsky Monastery in the 15th century. Beginning from the 14th century, the Pskov Principality from the one side, and the Tartu Diocese from the other, started determining their spheres of interest. The princes of Pskov erected the fortress of Izborsk and the Bishop of Tartu on his part erected the stronghold of Vastseliina. From then on Setomaa became the ground of continuous battles. A significant turning point in the history of Setomaa was the establishment of Pechorsky Monastery in 1473. The cloister was built on the slopes of the valley of the Kamenka River, a tributary of the Piusa. Under the supervision of abbot Kornily in the 16th century, the Pechorsky Monastery became consolidated. Numerous stone crosses on the ancient Seto graves date from that period. In the monastery chronicles were written; several churches and schools were established in the neighbourhood. Abbot Kornily died by an accident caused by Ivan Grozny, the ruler of Russia. The personality of Kornily inspired heroic legends; traits of his character can be recognized in Peko, the hero of the Seto national epic. In the course of the great wars of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries, powerful kings sojourned Setomaa: Stefan Batory of Poland, Gustav II Adolph of Sweden and Peter I of Russia. Although numerous armies tramped across Setomaa, the people still managed to preserve their villages. From 862 until 1920, Setomaa was part of Russia; and between 1920 -1940, part of the Republic of Estonia. In 1920, the Treaty of Tartu between the Republic of Estonia and the Russian Federation was concluded. According to the Treaty, Setomaa was linked with Estonia. Setomaa became an administrative unit - a county called Petserimaa with the administrative centre, Petseri. First the county was divided into four, later into eleven parishes. While determining the borders for the new parishes, the traditional ethnic habitation was taken into consideration so that the new parishes would possibly have purely Russian or Seto population. The folk have divided Setomaa into twelve parts, or communities (nulk). Each community comprises 10-12 villages, often the borders of the communities have been set by nature. Names for the communities have been derived either from the central village or settlement: e.g. Irboska nulk (Irboska community), or from the peculiarity of landscape: e.g. Üle-Pelska nulk (i.e. the area to the west of the Pelska River). Names were also based on other features: e.g. Anomanulk - implying at the clay craftsmen residing in the area (anom translates as “vessel”), or Kohopiimänulk - implying at the local tradition of making cottage cheese ( kohopiim is a sort of cottage cheese). In the autumn of 1921 a state regulation was issued according to which Seto people were for the first time ever given surnames. Since 1944, Setomaa has administratively been divided between two states. Currently the western part belongs to the Republic of Estonia and the eastern part to the Russian Federation. This kind of division is the source of the Setos’ burning problems: the split-up congregations, location of properties and relatives on the other side of the state border. Burial mounds, stone crosses, tsässons (village chapels) are evidence of the past and of people’s faith that helped them make it through hard times. The numerous battles between the Russian, German, Polish and many other warriors were the reason why local inhabitants started to call this land Setomaa which in the local dialect means the Land of Wars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenna View Post
    Formation of the Seto area.

    The research of the earliest history of Setomaa, as regarded from the aspect of Seto people, is still in the initial stage. According to the latest archaeological finds the area of Setomaa has been inhabited for as long as 8 400 years. The earliest known dwelling site of the Stone Age was found on the territory of the village of Meremäe. Other settlements of ancient inhabitants were found on the shores of the Bay of Värska, in the environs of Izborsk (Irboska) and at Lesgi, on the slopes of the valley of the Optyok River. The ancestors of the people speaking the Võro-Seto dialect or - according to the latest researches - the Southern-Estonian language, belonged to the Balto-Finnic .
    As an ethnic South-Estonian it is of course extremely proud to be the oldest settled people in Europe but how dou you know, my dear friend that those first inhabitants 8400 years ago spoke Estonian/Setu language?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenna;252220
    [QUOTE
    The research of the earliest history of Setomaa, as regarded from the aspect of Seto people, is still in the initial stage.
    I see.

    According to the latest archaeological finds the area of Setomaa has been inhabited for as long as 8 400 years.
    How to explain Estonian (Setu, Baltic-Finnic) origin, let´s say for a 10 y.o. child?



    The theories of the origin of the Baltic Finns include the Migration Theory and the Settlement Continuity Theory, ...if we talk about theories which are well-known in...EuropeIn fact there are some other theories as well

    The Settlement Continuity Theory (Kalevi Wiik and etc)is based on archaeology and genealogy. Genealogic studies have shown that the Baltic Finns have a much closer genetic relationship to the northern and central Europeans than to the eastern Finnic peoples such as the Volga Finns. The theory suggests that Baltic Finns have lived in the region for up to 10,000 years, rather than the 3,000 years suggested by the Migration Theory. Some linguists have also supported this theory, but the issue is hotly debated, as genetic continuity does not necessarily prove continuity of languages.

    What is the most imporant feature of an ethnicity? Common colour of eyes, same shape of nose?

    No, the language is.
    At least if we are talking about Estonians.
    And so, let´s stop fetishing The Settlement Continuity Theory and lets look to the Migration Theory.

    According to the Migration Theory that was based primarily on comparative linguistics, the proto-Finnic peoples migrated from an ancient homeland somewhere in northwestern Siberia or from Kama-Volga area to the shores of the Baltic Sea around 1,000 BC, at which time Finns and Estonians separated. The Migration Theory has been called into question since 1980, based on genealogy, craniometry and archaeology. Recently, a modified form of the Migration Theory has gained new support among the younger generation of linguists, who consider that archaeology, genes or craniometric data cannot supply evidence of prehistoric languages.

    So,let´s try to explain it for a schoolboy.

    Well, Estonians are:

    the earliest inhabitants (UP survivors, blond ones)

    +

    Uralic speakers (from Kama-Volga area, speakers of the Finno-Ugric tongue, blond ones?lol)

    +

    Indo-European speakers (blond ones?non-blond ones?who knows)

    +

    many migrants from historical times from all neighbouring countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by esäimä View Post

    I see.



    How to explain Estonian (Setu, Baltic-Finnic) origin, let´s say for a 10 y.o. child?



    The theories of the origin of the Baltic Finns include the Migration Theory and the Settlement Continuity Theory, ...if we talk about theories which are well-known in...EuropeIn fact there are some other theories as well

    The Settlement Continuity Theory (Kalevi Wiik and etc)is based on archaeology and genealogy. Genealogic studies have shown that the Baltic Finns have a much closer genetic relationship to the northern and central Europeans than to the eastern Finnic peoples such as the Volga Finns. The theory suggests that Baltic Finns have lived in the region for up to 10,000 years, rather than the 3,000 years suggested by the Migration Theory. Some linguists have also supported this theory, but the issue is hotly debated, as genetic continuity does not necessarily prove continuity of languages.

    What is the most imporant feature of an ethnicity? Common colour of eyes, same shape of nose?

    No, the language is.
    At least if we are talking about Estonians.
    And so, let´s stop fetishing The Settlement Continuity Theory and lets look to the Migration Theory.

    According to the Migration Theory that was based primarily on comparative linguistics, the proto-Finnic peoples migrated from an ancient homeland somewhere in northwestern Siberia or from Kama-Volga area to the shores of the Baltic Sea around 1,000 BC, at which time Finns and Estonians separated. The Migration Theory has been called into question since 1980, based on genealogy, craniometry and archaeology. Recently, a modified form of the Migration Theory has gained new support among the younger generation of linguists, who consider that archaeology, genes or craniometric data cannot supply evidence of prehistoric languages.
    Even if you're not a believer of Kalevi Wiik's theories, then it is still certain that the proto-Finno-Ugric homeland was in Eastern-Europe, west of the Urals.

    So,let´s try to explain it for a schoolboy.

    Well, Estonians are:

    the earliest inhabitants (UP survivors, blond ones)

    +

    Uralic speakers (from Kama-Volga area, speakers of the Finno-Ugric tongue, blond ones?lol)

    +

    Indo-European speakers (blond ones?non-blond ones?who knows)

    +

    many migrants from historical times from all neighbouring countries.
    Estonians are mostly UP-survivors/Uralic speakers.

    You can find Indo-Europeans in Southern-Italy and the Balkan area. They're not very blond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by esäimä View Post
    As an ethnic South-Estonian it is of course extremely proud to be the oldest settled people in Europe but how dou you know, my dear friend that those first inhabitants 8400 years ago spoke Estonian/Setu language?
    And of course they didn't - I noticed that even Lenna didn't dare to explicitly say so.

    South-Estonian is the first language to diverge from the Proto-Finnic language, but this happened only ca. 2 000 years ago.

    It also seems that the Uralic languages have been present in the Fennobaltia less than 4 000 years. But the Proto-Uralic area indeed seems to be located west of Urals.

    We all (excluding Wiik) know that archaeological and genetic continuity cannot methodologically prove the linguistic continuity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    And of course they didn't - I noticed that even Lenna didn't dare to explicitly say so.
    Concerning their language, Estonian linguist Paul Ariste had a theory that there are a number of loanwords and placenames of "proto-European" origin (being non-Finnic and non-IE), such as "meri", "higi", "saar", "mägi", "haug", "must", "Peipsi", "Pärnu", etc. Estonian wiki states Wiik's theory considers them the oldest layer of words in the Finnic languages.

    Quote Originally Posted by esäimä View Post
    The language they speak is the South-East Estonian dialect(or language).There is no special Setu language.At least i can understand "Setu language" as well because i know South-Eastern dialect (eh, not so well to be honest).There is no difference between the language of South-Eastern Estonians and the the language of Setus.The difference is only historical and the religion has been different, imo.
    One difference between Võro and Setu is that Setu uses many Russian loanwords whereas Estonian and Võro have the typical German/Swedish ones. For instance, "tea" is "tsäi" in Setu (through Russian "tšai"), "tii" in Võro and "tee" in standard Estonian. But stuff like this just reflects the cultural-historical difference.

    By the way, the Setu curseword for Estonians (tšuhna) sounds highly suspicious to say the least.

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    Nice but I think Basques and Iberians are as old or more than these people.

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