How Indo-European are modern Europeans?

[Kazbolat]

Steppe people were dark. See the Yamnaya genes for skin and eyes.

Yes they were, yet your darkness has nothing to do with Indo europeans. It comes from Neolithic farmers and possibly Moors

[Arhat]

Only in your wet dreams. It is impossible for Europeans to score 40-50% Yamna, as Yamna samples have 40-45% ANE admixture. Europeans on average have ~10% ANE admixture, which means they are mostly neolithic farmers and primitive WHGs with clubs who got raped by original Indo European horse herders. The calculator you are talking about was an earlier "experiment", this one is certainly more accurate.

Funny to see "descendant of corded ware" in your ethnicity section, you have most likely 8-10% ANE admixture (European average) , or %15 at most (if you are northeast european) LOL.


Europe= descendants of Neolithic and WHG losers who dream about being steppe aryans

You are not less biased than this "Nordics" and wannabe Aryans here. You really don't get that PIEs had no real ANE they carried EHG which is 3x times higher in Europe than anywhere in Asia. This are just the facts and I have significantly above 20% ANE

[Rugevit]

ANE is too old and should be ignored for estimating Indo-European ancestry among Asians. Yamnaya and Corded Ware had no real ANE like this Siberian Boy from Paleolithic Siberia. They carried EHG which is closely related to ANE but distinct from it. ANE in Asia is often a mix of this EHG, older real ANE and other ANE-like components. Much of ANE among modern Indo-Iranians is probably not EHG and not from an Indo-European source the same is true for ANE in the Caucasus. EHG peaks today among North-East Europeans and is much lower in Asia. But Proto-Indo-Iranians of Sintashta were mainly EHG.

How do you know that people of the Sintashta were Indo-Iranians? Because of Z93 marker? They could had been proto-Indo-European speakers.

[Ibericus]

Yes they were, yet your darkness has nothing to do with Indo europeans. It comes from Neolithic farmers and possibly Moors

I'm not talking about me.. I don't care about steppe people, they are easterns invaders, I'm just stating a fact, they were dark not "aryans" in the nazi sense.

[Arhat]

eurocentric crap. "We don't have much ANE, so ANE is bad" LOL. .

This is my favorite part
"Yamnaya and Corded Ware had no real ANE like this Siberian Boy from Paleolithic Siberia" ANE in Yamnaya and Corded Ware was actually WHG!!!!

You probably even don't know what EHG means. ANE was in Paleolithic Siberia more than 20000 years ago and yes PIEs are genetically closely related to ANEs but they lived much later and were descendants of another branch of North Eurasians. You troll also forget that the Malta Boy carried a R lineage which is extinct today and was not ancestral to both R1a or R1b. So PIEs were in no way direct and pure descendants of him.

[Arhat]

How do you know that people of the Sintashta were Indo-Iranians? Because of Z93 marker? They could have proto-Indo-European speakers.

Sintashta was maybe not Proto-Indo-Iranian and already postdated the Proto-Indo-Iranian but not sure about that. They are too late to be PIE speaking and Sintashta shows distinct Indo-Iranian cultural traditions.

However, against the context of the Rgveda (GENING 1977) it is important to note that the Sintashta sites share some cultural features described in this text. These are simple settlements fortified with ramparts and ditches, with a circular or rectangular fence or wall built from unfired clay and wooden frames (pur, RAU 1976). And there are remnants of horse sacrifices (aśvamedha) and primitive horse drawn chariots (ratha, raθa) with spoked wheels (ANTHONY and V INOGRADOV 1995). A real "tripura", Arkaim, was discovered in 1987 by G.Z DANOVICH. It has two circular walls and two circles of dwellings around a central square. The external wall was built from soil packed into timber framesbefore being faced with adobe bricks (*išt).The Sintashta-Arkaim sites have been explained as administrative and ceremonial centers for about 1,000-2,000 people and the aristocracy. The settlements (70 x 120 m) consist of frame houses, slightly sunk into ground (which reminds of Rgvedic kula "hollow, family" (if this indeed be the etymology, see EWA I 373), with traces of copper (ayas) production. Apart from the development of the chariot, the Sintashta culture shows links with E.Europe both in pottery and bronze artifacts. The graves at Sintashta are mounds with burial pits and log and timber chambers (cf. The "clay house", RV) Horse sacrifices have been made both inside and on top of the burialchamber. The graves also contain some light chariots with wheels up to 1 m in diameter and up to 10 spokes. These chariots still are very narrow in width, pointing to their origin from, by necessity narrow, oxen-drawn wagons (anas). Horse bits made of bone have also been found. Most tellingly, perhaps, at the site of Potapovka (N. Krasnoyarsk Dst., near Kuybyshev on the N. Volga steppe), a unique burial has been found. It contains a human skeleton whose head has been replaced by a horsehead; a human head lies near his feet, along with a bone pipe, and a cow's head is placed near his knees. This looks like an archaeological illustration of the Rgvedic myth of Dadhyañc , whose head was cut off by Indra and replaced by that of a horse. The bone pipe reminds, as the excavator has noted, of the RV sentence referring to the playing of pipes in Yama's realm, the world of the ancestors (GENING 1977)

There are several Proto- Indo-Aryan and Proto- Iranian loanwords in Uralic languages so Indo-Aryan and Iranian languages were already spoken in Bronze Age Russia/Siberia. Interestingly the Proto-Indo-Aryan loanwords are much older than the Proto-Iranian loanwords so Indo-Aryans were the first which got in contact with Uralics but almost impossible to pin point the exact location of this contacts. But it should be somewhere not far away from the Ural and Volga river. Many modern Indo-Iranians show some (small) Volga Finn-like genetic signals.

[Rugevit]

Sintashta was maybe not Proto-Indo-Iranian and rather just Proto-Iranians but not sure about that. They are too late to be PIE speaking and Sintashta shows distinct Indo-Iranian cultural traditions. There are several Proto- Indo-Aryan and Proto- Iranian loanwords in Uralic languages so Indo-Aryan and Iranian languages were already spoken in Bronze Age Russia/Siberia. Interestingly the Proto-Indo-Aryan loanwords are much older than the Proto-Iranian loanwords so Indo-Aryans were the first which got in contact with Uralics but almost impossible to pin point the exact location of this contacts. But it should be somewhere not far away from the Ural and Volga river. Many modern Indo-Iranians show some (small) Volga Finn-like genetic signals

The Sintashta culture existed between 4,000-5,000 ybp. 4,500-5,000 ybp is well within the time frame of Proto-Indo-European language. Is it not? What traditions people of the Sintashta had that Indo-Europeans of eastern Europe did not have? Horse sacrifices, swastikas, chariots? Horse sacrifices survived in eastern Europe, Lithuania for example till 1000AD. Swastika is most common in eastern Europe outside of northern India. Metallurgy also existed. There are fine examples in cultures of western Balts and Lithuanians. Uralic languages have even more ancient Baltic loan-words than Indo-Iranian loan-words. Middle Volga was always within a reach of the nomads from the steppes. The last wave of migration took Bulgars to middle Volga. That's probably the region where Uralic languages obtainedd their Indo-Iranian loan-words. I think the important evidence is Sintashta' genetics . People of Sintashta are genetically similar to Belarusians , Lithuanians and some Russians at genome-wide level (autosomal DNA), who are Indo-Europeans. z93 marker is not convincing evidence for me.

[Kazbolat]

and I have significantly above 20% ANE

It is impossible for a European to score more than %16-17 ANE, so you must be Uralic, Caucasian, South Central Asian or Indian then? Or you are just a liar talking out of his ass.

[Arhat]

The Sintashta culture existed between 4,000-5,000 ybp. 4,500-5,000 ybp is well within the time frame of Proto-Indo-European language. Is it not? What traditions people of the Sintashta had that Indo-Europeans of eastern Europe did not have? Horse sacrifices, swastikas, chariots? Horse sacrifices survived in eastern Europe, Lithuania for example till 1000AD. Swastika is most common in eastern Europe outside of northern India. Metallurgy also existed. There are fine examples in cultures of western Balts and Lithuanians. Uralic languages have even more ancient Baltic loan-words than Indo-Iranian loan-words. Middle Volga was always within a reach of the nomads from the steppes. The last wave of migration took Bulgars to middle Volga. That's probably the region where Uralic languages obtainedd their Indo-Iranian loan-words. I think the important evidence is Sintashta' genetics . People of Sintashta are genetically similar to Belarusians , Lithuanians and some Russians at genome-wide level (autosomal DNA), who are Indo-Europeans. z93 marker is not convincing evidence for me.

Uralic languages have Proto-Indo-Aryan/Indic loanwords and neither Scythians, Saka or other historical steppe people were Indo-Aryans. So Indo-Aryans were earlier than Scythians and Saka there and this could be just in the early Bronze Age if not even earlier. Just Sintashta, Fedorova-Andronovo or Potapovka are places where this contact between Proto-Indo-Iranians and Uralics could happen but maybe even earlier in Abashevo i am not an expert and maybe also totally wrong but this is my opinion. It is generally common sense among scholars to associate Sintashta with Proto-Indo-Iranians already before we knew anything about their DNA. The oldest Indo-European loanwords in Uralic languages are Indo-Iranian and not Balto-Slavic as far as i know. Z93 is in my opinion an good evidence for an Indo-Iranian character of Sintashta because Z93 is everywhere today present where Indo-Iranians live or once lived. The tested Sintashta males were also not just Z93 they were also Z94, Z2125 and Z2124 which are downstream markers of Z93 and today only very common among Indo-Iranians. So they were not just Z93 which was probably still PIE speaking.

RISE392. Stepnoe VII. Sintashta, Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123>Y877+ Y939-
[...]
RISE386. Bulanovo. Sintashta Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>S23592>YP1456 (YP1460 level YP1456)

Finally, I would like to shortly discuss the implications for the contacts between Indo-Iranian and Uralian speakers, which is the actual theme of this conference. As is well known, Uralic has heavily borrowed from Indo-Iranian, but I agree with those scholars who believe that many of the apparent early borrowings rather reflect an etymological relationship between Uralic and Indo-European, and I doubt that there are Proto-Uralic borrowings from Indo-European. At any rate, borrowings from Indo-Iranian start with the Finno-Ugrian period. It is remarkable that the oldest layer of borrowings often concerns words which are only attested in Sanskrit and not in Iranian . This fact can be explained by the vanguard position of the Indo-Aryans, who were the first to come into contact with the Uralic population on their move to the east. The Iranians, who came slightly later, lived in the neighboorhood of the Uralians for a very long time and continuously contributed to the enrichment of the Uralian vocabulary

4,000-5,000 ybp is too late for PIE in my opinion and 3500 ybp there were already distinct Indo-Aryan and Iranian languages, what we see in Rgveda and Avesta. Yes genetically they are extremely similar to modern Balto-Slavs but we still find NE Euro-like genetic signals among Indo-Iranians especially among Pamiri Tajiks ( East Iranians) and Jatts (Indo-Aryans). Indo-Iranians mixed much with BMAC folks before they even entered Afghanistan, India or Iran so we should not expect that modern Indo-Iranians are genetically closer to Sintashta than modern Balto-Slavs even when they are unlike them direct descendants of them.

Andronovo was clearly derived from Sintashta. Andronovo is the link between Proto-Indo-Iranians and historical Iranian and Indo-Aryan people andit also shows distinct Indo-Iranian traditions.

In accordance with my methodology the decisive arguments for the ethnic attribution of the Andronovo culture rests on the evidence of material culture, economy and cultural complex. The data on the burial rite and beliefs can be used only to verify the hypothesis. As the Andronovo burial rite is in full systematic agreement with the Vedic one, this fact can be used as a decisive argument for declaring the Andronovans as Indo-Iranians. The absence of a pig sacrifice and the special role of the horse and chariot serve as particular ethnic indicators that distinguish Indo-Iranians from other Indo-European peoples and single out the Andronovans from neighboring tribes. The rite of cremation which is characteristic only of the Fedorovo tribes of the Andronovo culture makes this population close to the Indo-Aryans.

[Rugevit]

Uralic languages have Proto-Indo-Aryan/Indic loanwords and neither Scythians, Saka or other historical steppe people were Indo-Aryans. So Indo-Aryans were earlier than Scythians and Saka there and this could be just in the early Bronze Age if not even earlier. Just Sintashta, Fedorova-Andronovo or Potapovka are places where this contact between Proto-Indo-Iranians and Uralics could happen but maybe even earlier in Abashevo i am not an expert and maybe also totally wrong but this is my opinion. It is generally common sense among scholars to associate Sintashta with Proto-Indo-Iranians already before we knew anything about their DNA. The oldest Indo-European loanwords in Uralic languages are Indo-Iranian and not Balto-Slavic as far as i know. Z93 is in my opinion an good evidence for an Indo-Iranian character of Sintashta because Z93 is everywhere today present where Indo-Iranians live or once lived. The tested Sintashta males were also not just Z93 they were also Z94, Z2125 and Z2124 which are downstream markers of Z93 and today only very common among Indo-Iranians. So they were not just Z93 which was probably still PIE speaking.





4,000-5,000 ybp is too late for PIE in my opinion and 3500 ybp there were already distinct Indo-Aryan and Iranian languages, what we see in Rgveda and Avesta. Yes genetically they are extremely similar to modern Balto-Slavs but we still find NE Euro-like genetic signals among Indo-Iranians especially among Pamiri Tajiks ( East Iranians) and Jatts (Indo-Aryans). Indo-Iranians mixed much with BMAC folks before they even entered Afghanistan, India or Iran so we should not expect that modern Indo-Iranians are genetically closer to Sintashta than modern Balto-Slavs even when they are unlike them direct descendants of them.

Andronovo was clearly derived from Sintashta. Andronovo is the link between Proto-Indo-Iranians and historical Iranian and Indo-Aryan people andit also shows distinct Indo-Iranian traditions.

Prior to genetic analysis of the Sintashta samples archaeologists assumed people of the Sintashta were proto-Indo-Iranic. In my opinion , such conclusion may have do with geographic location of the Sintashta culture in relation to Indo-European cultures, which are western. The Sintashta culture is just north of Kazakhstan in southern Ural mountains.

At genome-wide level not only modern Balto-Slavs are very similar to people Sintashta (bronze age) but also other north European populations, such as south-western Finns, Scandinavians and Scotts if we compare genetic similarities between Sintashta and modern-day Indo-Iranians.

Either

- Original Indo-Iranians of Sintashta were like modern day Indo-Europeans genetically.
- people of Sintashta were not Indo-Iranians; or
- the model is wrong or we miss some important bits of information.


Rugevit on this map is me. Are you implying I am an Indo-Iranian in denial? Show me a single Indo-Iranian who speaks a language similar to mine, looks like me or genetically is similar to me.