Caucasus VS Balkan which culture is more ME influenced?

[catgeorge]

You are the second butthurt fellow from Greece insulting Hungarians and myself in matter of minutes. But I bet you love it when our tourists contribute to Greek economy. Such ingratitude...

I do not really like Hungarians so better to stay where you are - they always insult in their delusions of grandeur of superiority. Little do they know we just see them as stupid chinks.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Asia Minor cuisine is Greek too, Ionian/Byzantine, from where Turks took almost everything.



Yeah, the ate only feta from katsikia. Again, doesn't mean gyros(Greek word) is not Greek.

Souvlaki(and gyros) is Ancient Greek.
http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thre...-ancient-greek

Greeks of asia minor have significant mena influence in their culture, we should not consider everything as byzantine, especially when these aspects were completely uncommon among native Greeks

Asia minor cuisine is closer to Lebanese than it is to native Greek, and many people who visit Greece and eat gyros may say "it is middle eastern" ignoring that native culture and cuisine is completely different

on contrary, in the mainland and most of the islands you can find cuisine (along with the rest of culture) which is much more similar to mediterranean Southern European countries than to mena or balkan people.

for example,from pelloponese to thessaly there have always been traditional handmade pasta dishes like "γκογκες"

[Hellenas]

Greeks of asia minor have significant mena influence in their culture, we should not consider everything as byzantine, especially when these aspects were completely uncommon among native Greeks

Most "mena" cultural influence asia minor Greeks have got it from the Byzantines and probably same goes for most "mena" influence mainland Greeks have. Mainland Greeks before the arrival of asia minor Greeks also had many oriental influences, Greece was never fully European culturally as well as genetically and racially.

Asia minor cuisine is closer to Lebanese than it is to native Greek, and many people who visit Greece and eat gyros may say "it is middle eastern" ignoring that native culture and cuisine is completely different

Asia minor cusine is the Byzantine cusine. I don't know if the Byzantine cuisine is closer to Lebanese or mainland Greek cuisine, I think it's unique but for sure mainland Greeks appreciated so much the asia minor cuisine that almost made it the national cuisine of Greece, everybody knows Greece for asia minor Gyros and Baklava not for Zacynthian Macarounes or Sgatzeto.

Italian cultural influences in Ionian islands through Venecians, Oriental influences in asia minor through Byzantines(without meaning that Gyros or Baklava are not Greek but "mena").

Your complaints to the Eastern Romans("Byzantines").


You have already deny this but ancient Greeks knew very well what tsifteteli/cordax and kandaulos/kebab means.

Reasonable evidence suggest Tsifteteli is Ancient Greek
http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thre...teteli-ancient

Souvlaki(and gyros) is Ancient Greek.
http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thre...-ancient-greek

"Athenaeus in Deipnosophistae and called the plate kandaulos. The skewed meat, kebab-like recipe, existed as a favourite in ancient Greece at Archaic times, as the earliest references are attested in Homer."


I hope you will laugh with that.

Tsifteteli in Zakynthos!!!

[WeirdLookingFellow]

I refuse to categorize Moldavians / Transylvanians as people of the Balkans. The Wallachians, maybe. But it's clearly because of the Turkish occupation and not because of a cultural similarity. So I'm just leaving you with some nice Moldovan music.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Mainland Greeks before the arrival of asia minor Greeks also had many oriental influences, Greece was never fully European culturally as well as genetically and racially.

I never denied this fact. However, the biggest part of Greek race, culture, mentality and language were southern European. Balkanic and Mena influence were minor.

After all, there is nothing in Europe 100% European

Asia minor cusine is the Byzantine cusine. I don't know if the Byzantine cuisine is closer to Lebanese or mainland Greek cuisine, I think it's unique but for sure mainland Greeks appreciated so much the asia minor cuisine that almost made it the national cuisine of Greece, everybody knows Greece for asia minor Gyros and Baklava not for Zacynthian Macarounes or Sgatzeto.

Italian cultural influences in Ionian islands through Venecians, Oriental influences in asia minor through Byzantines(without meaning that Gyros or Baklava are not Greek but "mena").

Your complaints to the Eastern Romans("Byzantines").

It's not only Zante, but every part of mainland has such influences or has influenced southern Europe. For example thessaly had also kinds of pasta (καμπανουλες) the same goes for pelloponese (γκογκες) and I suppose central Greece. In any case at least central Greece and pelloponese were more similar to southern Europe than to mena.

You have already deny this but ancient Greeks knew very well what tsifteteli/cordax and kandaulos/kebab means.

They didn't
We both know that in Greece we have the tendency to ancientfy everything, otherwise how do you explain that Noone in Greece was aware of both kebab and "kordaxtsiftenteli" until 70's.

I hope you will laugh with that.

Tsifteteli in Zakynthos!!!

Hahaha yes that was funny, believe it or not, that dance is more popular in the youth of the island, than the youth of thessaly, no matters of it has nothing in common with the tradition of both

Also, I would like to make it clear, that I respect the culture of Asia Minor and constantinopole, I love their cuisine, not their music or dances at all, but the only annoying thing is that their culture is often confused as "pan-greek" but it's not. Even if their culture is to be considered as part of Greek, not Greek as a whole can be accused as "mena", the biggest part is mostly non mena

[Hellenas]

They didn't

You say so! Your just in denial!

Everything you have to know about the ancient Hellenic origins of Tsifteteli.
https://ellinondiktyo.blogspot.gr/20...g-post_18.html

The kebab-like kandaulos is described by Aristophanes in "Acharnians", by Xenophon in "Hellenica" and by Aristotle in "Politics".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souvlaki

You can deny everything, it's your right.

We both know that in Greece we have the tendency to ancientfy everything,

I know exactly the opposite, that we have the tedency to de-hellenize everything Greek and offer it to all other peoples, especially to Balkanians and Turks.

otherwise how do you explain that Noone in Greece was aware of both kebab and "kordaxtsiftenteli" until 70's.

Asia Minor was Greece too by the antiquity and these things always were known there, in mainland Greece many things were forgotten, like Pandura-Bouzouki

http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/132/bouzouki-ancient-greek

but not in asia minor. Mainland Greece became more a goat-culture full of shepherds and sheepfolds. Mainland Greece compared to Asia Minor and especialy Constantinople and Smyrna was just a bumpkin-province.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Then I can't really get the way all the things that mainland Greeks forgot were mena -like things, and the way asia minor Greeks observed to that degree almost only mena like things. Anyway, the only sure is that all Greeks except of kapadokians and Pontic Greeks were assimilated after the ottoman occupation, and the first Greek inhabitants of asia minor were immigrants mostly from the islands and pelloponese in 16th century. These Greeks, living mostly in Smyrna and constantinopole were kinda different from other anatolians and their culture was mostly European oriented

[Hellenas]

Then I can't really get the way all the things that mainland Greeks forgot were mena -like things, and the way asia minor Greeks observed to that degree almost only mena like things.

What is mena to you, kebab, bouzouki etc are not really mena but Greek influences to near easterners, only music is mena influenced. Asia Minor Greeks were closer to near easterners than mainland Greeks and they got more oriental influences, same goes for Byzantines and ancient asia minor Greeks, known as Ionians. People in the Aegean islands also have many oriental cultural influences but less than asia minor Greeks. Also mainland Greeks were never culturally 100% Europeans culturally and same goes for all Balkanians. Nothing more normal than this. Why mainland Greeks forgot their oriental influences that Ionian/Byzantines had and Asia Minor Greeks maintained? Because they were for centuries more in contact with Balkanians than Asia Minor Greeks or Near Easterners, for exapmle foustanella can be found in all over the Balkans.

the first Greek inhabitants of asia minor were immigrants mostly from the islands and pelloponese in 16th century.

Asia Minor always inhabited by Pelasgians and then Ionians, Aeolians and Dorians settled. Of course then Greeks from mainland Greece and the islands also settled there.

These Greeks, living mostly in Smyrna and constantinopole were kinda different from other anatolians and their culture was mostly European oriented.

Their culture was Asia Minor Greek that inluenced both by western european and oriental cultures. Especially Constantinople always was the most oriental oriented Greek city.

[brennus dux gallorum]

What is mena to you, kebab, bouzouki etc are not really mena but Greek influences to near easterners, only music is mena influenced. Asia Minor Greeks were closer to near easterners than mainland Greeks and they got more oriental influences, same goes for Byzantines and ancient asia minor Greeks, known as Ionians. People in the Aegean islands also have many oriental cultural influences but less than asia minor Greeks. Also mainland Greeks were never culturally 100% Europeans culturally and same goes for all Balkanians. Nothing more normal than this.

not all the islands, crete, cyclades and dodecansese had also minor mena or balkanic influences and mostly a mediterranean culture, like most of mainland. On contrary, in a weird way, ionian islands had some mena influecne too.

anyway, my point, in all of my posts, is that Greek culture is mostly (not fully) a non mena culture, mostly a southern european culture, and that in most cases the "mena" elements, that someone will find in modern Greece were usually not common among Greeks except of Greeks from asia minor. I can't find the point in which you disagree.

[Hellenas]

not all the islands, crete, cyclades and dodecansese had also minor mena or balkanic influences and mostly a mediterranean culture, like most of mainland. On contrary, in a weird way, ionian islands had some mena influecne too.

anyway, my point, in all of my posts, is that Greek culture is mostly (not fully) a non mena culture, mostly a southern european culture, and that in most cases the "mena" elements, that someone will find in modern Greece were usually not common among Greeks except of Greeks from asia minor. I can't find the point in which you disagree.

I don't disagree with that, asia minor Greeks had more oriental(not mena, mena means middle eastern + noth african) than other Greeks but again Cretans have more Arab, Epirots more Albanian of Illyrian origin, Thessalians more balkanian through Vlachs, Macedonians more south Slav and Ionian islanders more Italian, what does that means? That no one ever was and shall never be 100% pure on any level, cultural, genetic, linguistic, whatever. It just can't be done.

Anyway, most asia minor Greeks have already assimilated by mainland Greeks both racially and culturally and what they had all mainland and islander Greeks got it too.