Explain this: Kyrgyz 70-80% Mongoloid autosomal DNA, Y-DNA ( 25.5% C3, O3 8.5%, 55.3% R1a )

[Rethel]

I seriously doubt the first Turkic state was created by IE's but even if that was the case.

State is not = people. IEs could created state with mongolian people. Simply.

Many if not all kagans from first turkut's kaganate have Iranic names. The turkic script is
a sogdian one, and sogdian was a cultural language of the kagante. Probably majority of
people were of mongolian provenance, so altaic language dominated all members of this state.

Maybe Turkic was originally Siberian Mongoloid with paternal IE' ancestry. The Pazyryk culture is a Iranic but the males were part Mongoloid and females were Europoid.

In this area mixes were happening since millenia, so it is nothing strange.
But some lingusts point on that, that turk is an iranian name. If I correctly
remember, there was some iranic/scythian tribe with similar name, and what
is also important, iranic mythology considerd them equaly related people who
descendend from three brothers, one was Sarmatian, second Turk and fourth
Iranian. It of course doesn not mean, that 100% of turkic speakers in XIII century
had that provenance, but the elite and main culture making part of that people.

Hungarians are from Ural and Syberia, but only 0,48% of them is really of that provenance.
similar situation is woth Bulgars. So, you have to divided people on parts to knw, who is from.
There is no one good answer, becasue there is no one people.

" Reconstruction of the mounds number 5, 6 show burial Stone Barn in racial make women Ural Europoid mixed type men - striking features of Central Asian Mongoloid."

Because they were mixing - it is logical, then if on the steppe lived both kind
of people, then they were mixing with each other. What other did you expect?

[Rethel]

Yes sure but how do we know if those R1a were already tainted by heavy Mongoloid admixture.

It could have it, of course.
Especially, that among Kyrgyzes the usual way of making a wife is to kidnaped her.
Even today 1/5 of marriages are making by this way.
That practice could have it's origin when early not-yet-named-and-speak-kyrgyzes
where kidnapping women from other tribes. Obviously mongoloidic tribes. Plus some
confederations which they made, male slaves and captives which they took - all
this could very early influenced their look. BUT the very fact, that they were white
and light pigmented people, shows, that they were originally IEs - especially that
they have big amount of R1 a and b, and that early sources say it, and that they
originally lived in the very same place, where lived earlier/other surly IE people.

[ButlerKing]

It could have it, of course.
Especially, that among Kyrgyzes the usual way of making a wife is to kidnaped her.
Even today 1/5 of marriages are making by this way.
That practice could have it's origin when early not-yet-named-and-speak-kyrgyzes
where kidnapping women from other tribes. Obviously mongoloidic tribes. Plus some
confederations which they made, male slaves and captives which they took - all
this could very early influenced their look. BUT the very fact, that they were white
and light pigmented people, shows, that they were originally IEs - especially that
they have big amount of R1 a and b, and that early sources say it, and that they
originally lived in the very same place, where lived earlier/other surly IE people.

" The dominant type of the Yenesy Kyrgyz was Mongoloid, but there is and indisputable admixture of Europoid elements in their composition. The specific position of this admixture is approximately the same as with the modern Kirgiz.[18] "


Source ----> Anthropology of the North: Translations from Russian Sources, Issues 1-3 [1]

[Rethel]

" The dominant type of the Yenesy Kyrgyz was Mongoloid, but there is and indisputable admixture of Europoid elements in their composition. The specific position of this admixture is approximately the same as with the modern Kirgiz.[18] "


Source ----> Anthropology of the North: Translations from Russian Sources, Issues 1-3 [1]

In which time?

[ButlerKing]

In which time?

That's what I like to know but it's definitely before before the time of Mongol invasion. The yenesei Kirghiz migrated from Siberia to what it's today Kirghistan, truth is the territory that inhabits kirghizstan was named after the tribe there was no kirghizstan before the soviet union.

[ButlerKing]

In which time?

Also there is a theory that even claimed the original Kirghiz as Uralic people who became turkified.
The Uralic Caucasian and Uralic Mongoloids are known for blonde hair, red hair ,brown hair.

Like the Khanty are a Mongoloid Uralic people having blonde and red hair is nothing uncommon for them, they are also predominant mongoloid group with high europoid admixture of 35-45%. Maybe the Kirghiz looked like these ?

[Petalpusher]

Europe would be only 70% W.Eurasian applying the same logic based on Y/mt but it's +95% on average. "When your logic keeps failing, maybe find another logic" non Mongoloid proverb.

[Peterski]

B/C r1a1 came from early neolithic lake baikal area:

Maternal and Paternal Polymorphisms in Prehistoric Siberian Populations of Lake Baikal
https://era.library.ualberta.ca/file...m#.V8oGHE0rLIV

The oldest currently known sample of R1a1 is from Europe - from Karelia.

That sample from Lake Baikal is much younger. Here are radiocarbon dates:

1) Baikal sample is 7250–6040 years BP (6125–4885 BCE), see Mooder 2006:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16323184

Quote:

"Noncalibrated radiocarbon dates (Isotrace, University of Toronto) from Lokomotiv suggest that this cemetery was used from approximately 7250–6040 BP. These dates correspond to the period between 6125–4885 BC when calibrated with the methodology of Stuiver et al. (1998)"

2) European (Karelian) sample is ca. 2000 years older according to Fu 2016:

See Extended Data Table 1 from Fu et al., "The Genetic History of Ice Age Europe":

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Ice_Age_Europe

Karelian R1a is dated to 8800–7950 years BP by Fu 2016: https://s21.postimg.io/4z3cnibiv/Karelian_HG.png



"Ancestral Journeys" dates it to 6850–6000 years BC: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

[johen]

The oldest currently known sample of R1a1 is from Europe - from Karelia.

Problem is where this one came from.

comments regarding ceramic's Central Asian trek by Jordan & Zvelebil:

"After c. 7,500 BC (9,500 BP), in the context of early post-glacial environmental conditions, pottery is dispersed further to the north-west, via the northerly route through central Russia, the Upper Volga, into Karelia and beyond, forming various local traditions of pointed-based pitted and combed ware, such as the Sperrings pottery of Finland, and entering the East Baltic and northern Scandinavia by about 5,000 BC"

the similar pottery of lake baikal was found in Karelia area.
http://archaeology.org.az/pdf/AASIA&...sentation7.pdf

[Peterski]

Lake Baikal region was inhabited by Caucasoid populations from deep prehistory until the Iron Age:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andron...l_anthropology

Quote:

"The Andronovo have been described by archaeologists as exhibiting pronounced Europoid features.[16] A 2004 study also established that, during the Bronze/Iron Age period, the majority of the population of Kazakhstan (part of the Andronovo culture during Bronze Age), was of West Eurasian origin (with mtDNA haplogroups such as U, H, HV, T, I and W), and that prior to the thirteenth to seventh century BC, all Kazakh samples belonged to European lineages.[23] Other studies confirm, that during Bronze Age in areas to the north of present-day China, the boundary between Europoid and Mongoloid populations was on the eastern slopes of the Altai, in Western Mongolia.[24][25] Some Europoid influence extended also into Northeast Mongolia,[26] and the population of present-day Kazakhstan was Europoid during the Bronze/Iron Age period.[27] Archaeological investigations likewise suggest, that in the steppe region of Central Asia and the Altai Mountains, the first food production began towards the end of the 3rd millennium BC and that the peoples who first entered this region were Europoids of the Afanasevo culture who came from the Aral Sea area (Kelteminar culture).[28]

In 2009, a genetic study of ancient Siberian cultures, the Andronovo culture, the Karasuk culture, the Tagar culture and the Tashtyk culture, was published in Human Genetics.[16] Ten individuals of the Andronovo horizon in southern Siberia from 1400 BC to 1000 BC were surveyed.[16] Extractions of mtDNA from nine individuals were determined to represent two samples of haplogroup U4, one sample of Z1, one sample T1, one sample of U2e, one sample of T4, one sample of H, one sample of K2b and one sample of U5a1.[16] Extractions of Y-DNA from one individual was determined to belong to Y-DNA haplogroup C (but not C3), while the other two extractions were determined to belong to haplogroup R1a1a, which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans.[16] Of the individuals surveyed only two (or 22%) were determined to be Mongoloid while seven (or 78%) were determined to be Europoid, with the majority being light-eyed and light-haired.[16]

In June 2015, another genetic study[29] surveyed one additional male and three female individuals of Andronovo culture. Extraction of Y-DNA from this individual was determined to belong to R1a1a1b2a2.[30] Extractions of mtDNA were determined to represent two samples of U4 and two samples of U2e.

References:

[16] Keyser, Christine; Bouakaze, Caroline; Crubézy, Eric; Nikolaev, Valery G.; Montagnon, Daniel; Reis, Tatiana; Ludes, Bertrand (May 16, 2009). "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people". Human Genetics. Springer-Verlag. 126: 395–410. doi:10.1007/s00439-009-0683-0. PMID 19449030. Retrieved 15 February 2015.
[23] Fox, Lalueza; Sampietro, M. L.; Gilbert, M. T. P.; Facchini, F.; Pettener, D.; Bertranpetit, J. (May 7, 2004). "Unravelling migrations in the steppe: mitochondrial DNA sequences from ancient central Asians.". Proceedings of the Royal Society. Royal Society. 271: 941–7. doi:10.1098/rspb.2004.2698. PMC 1691686free to read. PMID 15255049.
[24] González-Ruiz, Mercedes; et al. (2012). "Tracing the Origin of the East-West Population Admixture in the Altai Region (Central Asia)". PLOS ONE. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0048904.
[25] Hollard, Clémence; et al. (2014). "Strong genetic admixture in the Altai at the Middle Bronze Age revealed by uniparental and ancestry informative markers". FSI:Genetics. doi:10.1016/j.fsigen.2014.05.012.
[26] Kim, Kijeong; et al. (2010). "A western Eurasian male is found in 2000-year-old elite Xiongnu cemetery in Northeast Mongolia". American Journal of Physical Anthropology. doi:10.1002/ajpa.21242.
[27] Ismagulov, O; et al. (2010). "Physical Anthropology of Kazakh People and their Genesis".
[28] Panyushkina, Irina P; et al. (2013). Liviu Giosan; Dorian Q. Fuller; Kathleen Nicoll; Rowan K. Flad; Peter D. Clift, eds. "Climate-Induced Changes in Population Dynamics of Siberian Scythians (700-250 BC)". ResearchGate. doi:10.1029/2012GM001220.
[29] Allentoft, Morten E.; Sikora, Martin; et al. (2015). "Population genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia". Nature. doi:10.1038/nature14507.
[30] sample RISE512 (Allensoft et al 2015)"