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Thread: Eurogenes Biogeographic Ancestry Project

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iberia View Post
    Polish are isolated ? Spaniards isolated ? Lithuanians ? Geographically British or Irish are more isolated.
    All these are on either the western or northern fringes of Europe, so yes they are isolated from the West Asian component. Just as Spaniards have almost no Eastern European component because they're too far away from them.
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    Progressive Collectivist Agrippa's Avatar
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    Also, it's important the routes. Was this Southern-Euro imported from outside or exported outside ? The west-asian component seems clearly to have been introduced in Europe from the Caucasus/Iranian Plateau.
    Everything "was imported", the question is not whether it came from outside, but WHEN!

    And you can't know for sure when "Mediterranean" came from outside - always thinking about the fact, that this is the result of an admixture run, probably there is something like ancestral component behind it, probably NOT.

    Or probably a component which peaks now in Georgians or Iran, but came from somewhere else and transformed in Europe in something different for the most part, like "Western European".

    yes, but that's the only european part they have. Otherwise, Lebanese would be 70% european, which is ridiculous. There has never been a massive presence of Europeans in the Levant. Also, the Morocco Jews have REAL european admixture, since some of them were sephardites expelled from Iberia.
    You see it the wrong way, because the pre-Semitic Eastern Mediterranean people in ancient times were MUCH CLOSER to Europeans by default and elements related to them entered Europe on a most likely MASSIVE SCALE in Neolithic times.

    If they wouldn't have changed that much in between or changed in a simlar way as Europeans, they would still be Europeans - but as things are, they did change, racially, genetically, culturally - for various reasons, some mentioned above, yet individually many still prove the now more distant, but still present, relatedness.

    That's not true, there is no isolation. See the surrounding areas of the Caucasus (Iranian plateau) have also very high levels of WA. And the surrounding areas of Basques, are genetically similar to them.
    Yet the Basques and Sardinians often get their own distant clusters, sometimes even further aways from other Europeans than some non-Europeans, in various genetic analysis.

    And of course, I spoke of relative isolation, which means there was no constant genflow going from the Caucasus-Anatolia to Northern Europe. There was most likely one or more MAJOR events of such kinds, during the Mesolithic and Neolithic colonisation periods in particular, but afterwards the isolation by distance worked out and from a certain time on, other factors, including languages and culture, helped to increase the distance.

    Isn't it interesting that the Basques are often in their own cluster and being oftentimes used as reference for "the West" - now the Caucasians are linguistically largely isolated too, some even proposed ancient links to the Basques, but the crucial point is: They were not part of the later Indo-European story.

    I wouldn't wonder if a major reason for the West Asian component as it is visible especially in the latest runs is the prominent position of the Caucasian relative isolates as representative of a more general West Asian base.

    These relative isolates seem to define themselves, whereas others being defined BY THEM in such admixture runs.

    That is often a problem it seems...

    Here is an example of how extremes can affect the whole result:
    Quote Originally Posted by Polako
    However, I then also removed one of the original western Irish samples (IE12), because he seemed to be skewing the results for everyone else. Indeed, he appeared to be so extremely western Irish, that he pushed all the other samples slightly, but noticeably, closer together. I double checked his data, and it looks free of errors, so I'm almost certain this phenomenon is tied to his ancestry.
    http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/06/e...-update-1.html

    The WA in the Dodecad K-12 results seems to be pretty balanced, but still one has to keep in mind their special history and I really doubt the origin was in the Caucasus anyway, but rather it is where it was best preserved...

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    Veteran Member Ibericus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    That's not so ridiculous at all, many Lebanese could pass for Southern Europeans. 70% is a low figure.
    well, that's your opinion, they don't look european to me, but that's irrelevant now. Being 70% european is equivalent of having a full european father and a half european mother. I don't see all that europeanness honestly. Where are all the most frequent european haplogroups ? I think we are confusing term, european with Caucasoid. Are they Caucasoid ? Sure, and probably more than 95%, but european-wise they are about 30%, mostly from the Mediterranean component, which peaks in North-Italians and Sardinians.

    Irrelevant, because Indo-Europeans themselves (or their forebears) migrated from Asia into Europe anyway. So we are talking about progenitors of Europeans, not necessarily modern Europeans who have settled there.
    We don't even know if the indo-european presence was MASSIVE in Europe.

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    Veteran Member Ibericus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    Everything "was imported", the question is not whether it came from outside, but WHEN!

    And you can't know for sure when "Mediterranean" came from outside - always thinking about the fact, that this is the result of an admixture run, probably there is something like ancestral component behind it, probably NOT.
    It's irrelevant the When. What it's important, is the alleles frequency which peak in certain populations, see the Europeans at Behar et al. :


    You see it the wrong way, because the pre-Semitic Eastern Mediterranean people in ancient times were MUCH CLOSER to Europeans by default and elements related to them entered Europe on a most likely MASSIVE SCALE in Neolithic times.
    What pre-Semitic people ? What makes you believes the populations have changed in the now semitic areas ? Sounds to me like a fairy tale.
    If they wouldn't have changed that much in between or changed in a simlar way as Europeans, they would still be Europeans - but as things are, they did change, racially, genetically, culturally - for various reasons, some mentioned above, yet individually many still prove the now more distant, but still present, relatedness.
    Sorry, that's all fantasy. There is no reason to believe that Ancient West-Asians where a different population than now.

    Yet the Basques and Sardinians often get their own distant clusters, sometimes even further aways from other Europeans than some non-Europeans, in various genetic analysis.
    That's because we don't have in-between populations to fill the gaps, that's why they seem to look isolated. If we were to include surrounding areas we would see a continuum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iberia View Post
    Do you realize that Iranians, Assyrians, Turks, Lebanese, etc are more than 50 % West-Asia?
    Lebanese, and other predominantly Muslim Levantine populations, have the least West Asian scores in the entire Near East, Caucasus, and surrounding areas, excluding Arabians (eg Yemeni, Saudis, etc.):

    Population West_Asian
    1 Georgians 72.3
    2 Lezgins 64.6
    3 Adygei 62.9
    4 Armenian_D 54
    5 Assyrian_D 50.6
    6 Iranian_D 49.3
    7 Urkarah 47.2
    8 Azerbaijan_Jews 43.4
    9 Kalash 42.9
    10 Kurd 41.8
    11 Iraq_Jews 41.3
    12 Turkish_D 41.1
    13 Druze 40.7
    14 Iranian_Jews 40.6
    15 Georgia_Jews 38.9
    16 Stalskoe 38.9
    17 Uzbekistan_Jews 38.4
    18 Makrani 35.5
    19 Samaritans 35.2
    20 Cypriots 35.1
    21 Brahui 34.8
    22 Balochi 33.6
    23 Syrians 33.6
    24 Lebanese 32.4
    25 Palestinian 30.6
    26 Jordanians_19 29.3

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    Veteran Member Ibericus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Transhumanist View Post
    Lebanese, and other predominantly Muslim Levantine populations, have the least West Asian scores in the entire Near East, Caucasus, and surrounding areas, excluding Arabians (eg Yemeni, Saudis, etc.):

    Population West_Asian
    1 Georgians 72.3
    2 Lezgins 64.6
    3 Adygei 62.9
    4 Armenian_D 54
    5 Assyrian_D 50.6
    6 Iranian_D 49.3
    7 Urkarah 47.2
    8 Azerbaijan_Jews 43.4
    9 Kalash 42.9
    10 Kurd 41.8
    11 Iraq_Jews 41.3
    12 Turkish_D 41.1
    13 Druze 40.7
    14 Iranian_Jews 40.6
    15 Georgia_Jews 38.9
    16 Stalskoe 38.9
    17 Uzbekistan_Jews 38.4
    18 Makrani 35.5
    19 Samaritans 35.2
    20 Cypriots 35.1
    21 Brahui 34.8
    22 Balochi 33.6
    23 Syrians 33.6
    24 Lebanese 32.4
    25 Palestinian 30.6
    26 Jordanians_19 29.3
    Well, im not a robot I was talking out of memory. But yes, the West-Asian is most frequent in the Iranian plateau, as seen in the list.

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    Senior Member Kadu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iberia View Post
    It's irrelevant the When. What it's important, is the alleles frequency which peak in certain populations, see the Europeans at
    Yes, but what good are genetics for if you can't infer historical processes from it. E.g. how informative is to know that you have some north African, eastern European affinity or whatever if you can't correlate it to a specifical historical period of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iberia View Post
    What pre-Semitic people ? What makes you believes the populations have changed in the now semitic areas ? Sounds to me like a fairy tale.
    Code:
    POP	Eeuro	Weuro	Medit	NeoAfr	WeAsi	Sasian	NEAsia	SEAsia	Eafrica	SwAsia	NwAfric	PalAfri
    
    Dhimmi* populations for ~ 1500 years, save for the Druze
    Levant through Mesopotamia
    ASY	0.6	0.7	26.7	0.0	49.1	2.9	0.1	0.2	0.0	19.5	0.3	0.0
    MAN	0.8	2.4	27.4	0.3	43.0	6.4	0.6	0.0	0.0	19.2	0.0	0.0
    IQJ	0.4	2.1	28.2	0.1	41.3	4.4	0.0	0.1	0.7	22.0	0.8	0.0
    DRZ	0.4	2.6	31.5	0.4	40.7	0.6	0.1	0.2	1.8	20.0	1.4	0.2
    IRJ	0.9	2.7	26.9	0.0	40.6	5.9	0.2	0.2	1.0	20.5	1.0	0.0
    SAM	0.1	1.6	32.2	0.2	35.2	0.0	0.1	0.0	1.9	25.9	2.8	0.0
    
    Levantine Arab Muslims
    Levant
    SYR	2.3	1.8	23.8	2.2	33.6	3.3	0.5	0.5	1.9	28.4	0.9	0.9
    LEB	2.5	1.2	28.8	1.9	32.4	1.4	0.7	1.0	3.1	23.9	2.2	0.9
    PAL	0.3	2.3	27.4	2.4	30.6	1.0	0.2	0.3	5.5	24.7	3.9	1.5
    JOR	1.0	0.7	26.9	2.3	29.3	1.6	0.4	0.6	4.7	28.7	2.5	1.3
    *The Status of Non-Muslim Minorities Under Islamic Rule

    Dhimmitude: the Islamic system of governing populations conquered by jihad wars, encompassing all of the demographic, ethnic, and religious aspects of the political system. The word "dhimmitude" comes from dhimmi, an Arabic word meaning "protected". Dhimmi was the name applied by the Arab-Muslim conquerors to indigenous non-Muslim populations who surrendered by a treaty (dhimma) to Muslim domination. Islamic conquests expanded over vast territories in Africa, Europe and Asia, for over a millennium (638-1683). The Muslim empire incorporated numerous varied peoples which had their own religion, culture, language and civilization. For centuries, these indigenous, pre-Islamic peoples constituted the great majority of the population of the Islamic lands. Although these populations differed, they were ruled by the same type of laws, based on the shari'a.

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    Veteran Member Ibericus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadu View Post
    Yes, but what good are genetics for if you can't infer historical processes from it. E.g. how informative is to know that you have some north African, eastern European affinity or whatever if you can't correlate it to a specifical historical period of time.
    Im not saying it's irrelevant from a historical point of view, im saying irrelevant to determine wether something is European or not (European as in a component that peaks in Europe, as in the dark-blue in Behar et al.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iberia View Post
    Im not saying it's irrelevant from a historical point of view, im saying irrelevant to determine wether something is European or not (European as in a component that peaks in Europe, as in the dark-blue in Behar et al.)
    West Asian seems to peak just north of the Caucasus, which is technically Europe - by your own map that you posted.
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