Bitter Harvest: 2017 Hollywood movie about the Holodomor

[Sarmatian]

And you never specified where that was. As I brought up in another thread, I think I recall you stating your family was from Kuban prior to the forum crash. But I'm not 100 percent certain. Kuban is not a part of Ukraine today, but it is historically Ukrainian. Census figures easily show how Ukrainian it was. And yes indeed it was one of the worst impacted regions in the Holodomor.

Retarded Ukrs like to make such baseless claims a lot. Kuban was never Ukrainian, Don and Kuban cossacks were always different from hohols. Just a little similarity in language doesn't make Kuban Ukrainian.

Which is EXACTLY what my grandparents would always say. But it was more of a nonspecific lecture - you don't know what it's like to be truly hungry, is what they'd tell the kids. No, the systematic nature of the genocide is what I was referring to with that statement - e.g., the forced food confiscations.

The genocide of Ukrainians was systematic under Polish rule when food was confiscated so szhlachta could sell it for profits and get rich off that. Yet I don't see many Ukrainians complaining about that.

I bet you haven't even read any official document on the matter to figure out what was going on. Such accusations as you spill here require solid proof. Give me references to documents that will confirm genocidal intent of Soviet government and I may consider talking to you. Otherwise you're just another useful idiot repeating loud lies.

[Wanderer]

Let's not change the subject to Poles? Unlike katsaps, Poles are not harming Ukraine today.

Retarded Ukrs like to make such baseless claims a lot. Kuban was never Ukrainian, Don and Kuban cossacks were always different from hohols. Just a little similarity in language doesn't make Kuban Ukrainian.

A big fat lie from you. In fact, in the 1926 soviet census, roughly half the Kuban population stated that they were Ukrainian.

Give me references to documents that will confirm genocidal intent of Soviet government and I may consider talking to you. Otherwise you're just another useful idiot repeating loud lies.

Stalin:
"Oh, no, the Collective Farm policy was a terrible struggle... Ten million [he said, holding up his hands]. It was fearful. Four years it lasted. It was absolutely necessary..."

Winston Churchill, Memoirs of the Second World War. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1959 p. 633


"Farmers present by themselves the basic force of the national movement. Without farmers there can be no strong national movement. This is what we mean when we say that the nationalist question is, actually, the farmers' question."

Joseph Stalin, Marxist and the National-Colonial Question

[Jehan]

Don't twist the story around it by trying to present those in French SS as the true and only French fighters. At the end your country surrendered to Hitler and these people you talking about were serving the occupiers. That's the fact.

The true fighters were few Frenchmen who refused to give up the fight all the way until France was truly free. Like de Gaulle or the fellas in Normandie-Niemen.

Thoses people were serving europe.

Yeah De Gaulle is such warrior. It must have been so hard to resist in London.

Where did you get your nonsense from? Stop listening to idiocy of anti-Russian propaganda.

The journalist had never admitted any lie. He went to the frontline in search of material to publish. He asked battalion commander if there were any occurrences worth of article. Commander gave him the following story: there was a fight near village of Dubosekovo (true) where 28 men (not true) while heavily outnumbered (true) halted advance of German panzer units (true) and all died (not true) without giving up their positions (true). The battle happened literally day before so no exact information was available at the time. It's normal thing for combat environment when things happens fast and takes time to check what's really happened. Knowing that information was raw and unconfirmed journalist decided to publish the material anyway since it was exactly kind of story he was looking for.

In fact there was more than 28 men and not all of them died. Does that change the fact there was battle against far larger enemy force and men stood their ground to the end? The published story had some true and some false facts but which ones it had more? Can you just dismiss the whole story as a lie just because later it was found that commander haven't had all facts when talking to reporter?

It seems the journalist admitted that he made up most of the details which were published in his articles, including Klochkov's famous last words and the dying Natarov's tale.

Which non sens? you told it yourself the story isn't true or at least partially untrue and highly exagerate.

As for soldier who was taken prisoner and served to Germans he was later returned back into Red Army and fought in it until the end of war. I believe NKVD had checked him thoroughly. If they had given him weapons to fight instead of executing him as traitor they had very good reasons to do so. I'm not going to judge him, the people authorized to do so at the time did it already.

Yet they send him to jail at the end of the war...

[Sarmatian]

Let's not change the subject to Poles? Unlike katsaps, Poles are not harming Ukraine today.

Poles do as much harm to Ukraine today as katsaps.

A big fat lie from you. In fact, in the 1926 soviet census, roughly half the Kuban population stated that they were Ukrainian.

Just another pearl of your retardation. During census all Cossacks were written as Ukrainians due to their language difference from Russian. But only in Ukrainian mythology Cossacks are Ukrainians, in reality they were not.

Stalin:
"Oh, no, the Collective Farm policy was a terrible struggle... Ten million [he said, holding up his hands]. It was fearful. Four years it lasted. It was absolutely necessary..."

Winston Churchill, Memoirs of the Second World War. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1959 p. 633

What does that supposed to mean? It was in reality a terrible struggle, lasted four years and was absolutely necessary. It's all true. But the number given isn't really specific. Ten millions of what?

"Farmers present by themselves the basic force of the national movement. Without farmers there can be no strong national movement. This is what we mean when we say that the nationalist question is, actually, the farmers' question."

Joseph Stalin, Marxist and the National-Colonial Question

If you want to be understood and have a remotely intelligent conversation you have to be absolutely clear on the meaning of your quotes. You listing a phrase taken out of context and expect me to interpret it in some way? I'm sorry but I have no telepathic powers yet, you will have to explain what does that mean to you and why it makes you so upset.

[Sarmatian]

Thoses people were serving europe.

Sure, if you say so.

It seems the journalist admitted that he made up most of the details which were published in his articles, including Klochkov's famous last words and the dying Natarov's tale.

Which non sens? you told it yourself the story isn't true or at least partially untrue and highly exagerate.

It could be described as heroic story. Ever heard of such things? They were told in every war on all sides with goal to boost morale. I don't see a problem here. Especially since in 1944 novel Volokolamsk Highway was published describing exactly same events from accounts of actual commander Bauyrzhan Momyshuly. I don't get it what you trying to achieve with your accusations.

Yet they send him to jail at the end of the war...

So he served the punishment he deserved. Does that anyhow compromises the fact of his heroism in Panfilov's division?

[ЛыSSый]

it's so painful and humiliative when you're ignorant immigrant with 3rd world background. You're forced to seek diffent shit for compensate it. Wandeder, we're awaithing for fairy tales from your grands about holodomor.
кстати, почему "Холодомор", если правильно "Голодомор"? опять эти канадские бляди на переводчике сэкономили.

[Wanderer]

Poles do as much harm to Ukraine today as katsaps.

A ridiculous notion. Poles & Ukrainians have not always gotten along. We Ukrainians do have historical grievances against the Poles, but it is not productive to dwell on them.

Just another pearl of your retardation. During census all Cossacks were written as Ukrainians due to their language difference from Russian.

You must be confusing the 1926 soviet census with the 1897 Russian Imperial census. Really, either one can be used to reasonably make my case, but I mentioned the former specifically because, unlike the 1897 one, it was an ethnographic census. The 1897 one was strictly linguistic.

Plus, the Kuban People's Republic sought unification with Ukraine (West Ukrainian People's Republic & Ukrainian People's Republic) prior to its incorporation into the USSR.

If you want to be understood and have a remotely intelligent conversation you have to be absolutely clear on the meaning of your quotes. You listing a phrase taken out of context and expect me to interpret it in some way? I'm sorry but I have no telepathic powers yet, you will have to explain what does that mean to you and why it makes you so upset.

It hardly requires telepathic powers to discern the significance of the quote. What this shows is that stalin viewed the backbone of the "national movement" (i.e., the so-called counterrevolutionary--in communist parlance--movements for national independence, particularly strong among Ukrainians), as residing with the peasantry. It's an insight into the stalinist mentality. This is why the policies were deliberately carried out to decimate the rural Ukrainian population and significantly weaken the movement for national liberation. To this end, food was confiscated by brutal means, and all the while the USSR was actually exporting grain, so there wasn't truly a deficit - starvation was induced intentionally.

[Jehan]

I don't get it what you trying to achieve with your accusations.

I try to acheive nothing except saying the truth. A russian member critics the futur movie about holodomor and quote the 12 panfilov men as an histoical Movie. As it's not I just correct it.
It doesn't disturb you that invents facts are present as the historical truth? That's strange like you always try to correct everybody when it comes to history and give a good picture of russia and soviet union.

[Sarmatian]

I try to acheive nothing except saying the truth. A russian member critics the futur movie about holodomor and quote the 12 panfilov men as an histoical Movie. As it's not I just correct it.
It doesn't disturb you that invents facts are present as the historical truth? That's strange like you always try to correct everybody when it comes to history and give a good picture of russia and soviet union.

So by you truth is to dismiss the whole story. Even after all the true facts I presented to you. Well, you entitled to your opinion but that's mean just that - your biased ignorant opinion, not truth.

As for me I'm not trying to give good picture of Russia, I'm speaking against obvious lies, that's about it.

[Sarmatian]

A ridiculous notion. Poles & Ukrainians have not always gotten along. We Ukrainians do have historical grievances against the Poles, but it is not productive to dwell on them.

Yet you find it productive to dwell on grievances against Russians. Fascinating stupidity.

Anyway you don't get my point. Today Russians do as much harm to Ukraine as Poles. Or should I rather say as little as Poles. Most of damage to Ukraine was done by Ukrainians themselves. In 1991 the country's economy was 3rd in Europe with zero debt (because Russia had taken all obligations of USSR). The responsibility for condition of the country today lies exclusively on people who were running it for last 25 years. And Yanukovich was the least problem.

You must be confusing the 1926 soviet census with the 1897 Russian Imperial census. Really, either one can be used to reasonably make my case, but I mentioned the former specifically because, unlike the 1897 one, it was an ethnographic census. The 1897 one was strictly linguistic.

Funny thing is there was no mention of Ukrainians in census of 1897, they didn't existed as entity back then. So I'm not confusing anything, in 1926 all Cossack population of Kuban was written as Ukrainians. That's a fact since my family was there at the time.

Plus, the Kuban People's Republic sought unification with Ukraine (West Ukrainian People's Republic & Ukrainian People's Republic) prior to its incorporation into the USSR.

Don't try to present your wishful thinking for truth. There were some people in Kuban who wanted to join Ukraine to resist Communists. It's simple unification in face of bigger threat, nothing to do with ethnic unity.

It hardly requires telepathic powers to discern the significance of the quote. What this shows is that stalin viewed the backbone of the "national movement" (i.e., the so-called counterrevolutionary--in communist parlance--movements for national independence, particularly strong among Ukrainians), as residing with the peasantry. It's an insight into the stalinist mentality. This is why the policies were deliberately carried out to decimate the rural Ukrainian population and significantly weaken the movement for national liberation. To this end, food was confiscated by brutal means, and all the while the USSR was actually exporting grain, so there wasn't truly a deficit - starvation was induced intentionally.

You are an idiot. In any significant country to this day peasants and farmers are backbone of economy. Only an imbecile would decimate them for his own ideological reasons. It would be outright retarded to suggest Stalin's mental deficiency given the success of his industrialization policies.

The quotes you provided couldn't be considered as valid historical source since first are words of third person about what Stalin said and the second is sentence taken out of context. Both are indirect and open to interpretations. What I was asking for is official documents which would prove ill intent of government towards Ukrainian peasantry beyond any reasonable doubt. All files are open now and most are available in digital form. Feel free to search them and come back once you find anything. Then we will talk. Good luck.