Which one of these Romance languages is the most peculiar ?

[Robocop]

Germans joking that NL stands not for Netherlands but for Nur Limonade
We Czechs are perhaps Slavic version of Dutch people - we like to travel a lot, but saving each penny, everywhere.

I always admired that.

You travel a lot, while Croats on the other hand are always like; "oh why should we go, we have sea in Croatia" blah blah blah, but I don't agree with that, I travel everywhere where I can, and thank God my college while studying gave me the chance to see various countries, INCLUDING Czech Rep. - Prague.

[Mens-Sarda]

-Sardinian: I don't know much about it, how it sounds...The only things I can tell: like Romanian, this language belongs to the Eastern Romance family, and among all these languages, is possibly the closest to Latin. It has also very archaic structure and kept Pre-Latin roots.

Sardinian doesn't belong to the Eastern Romance Family, but to an isolated branch among the Romance family, the Insular Romance branch, derived from the insular Latin spoken in Sardinia and Corsica after the fall of the Roman Empire. It's in the middle between the Western and Eastern Romance languages, Sardinian shares features with both families, in addition to its own peculiarities that can be found only in Sardinian.

About the spoken Sardinian, the central-northern Sardinian (Logudoresu) sounds like Spanish but without Spanish accent; while Southern Sardinian (Campidanesu) sounds like Portuguese, with a lot of nasal pronounces, and weird vowels.

see picture : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanc...ication-en.png


btw to answer to the question, I'd say that Romanian is the strangest of the family, due to its secular isolation from the main body of the Romance family and the many Slavic influences; curiously northern Sardinian shares many words of its vocabulary with Romanian, words that are present only in these two languages, to mention just one word: "limba" (language, tongue); it seems to be a case of convergent evolution, since these two languages never had contacts during their history.

[Mens-Sarda]

I would like from all of you here from Romance countries to compare your languages to Dalmatian Latin language, here is our christian prayer on 4 Romance languages (so that you can compare), INCLUDING Dalmatian language of my ancestors:

DALMATIAN LANGUAGE:

Tuota nuester, che te sante intel sil,
sait santificuot el naun to.
Vigna el raigno to.
Sait fuot la voluntuot toa, coisa in sil, coisa in tiara.

Duote costa dai el pun nuester cotidiun.
E remetiaj le nuestre debete,
coisa nojiltri remetiaime a i nuestri debetuar.
E naun ne menur in tentatiaun,
miu deleberiajne dal mal.

ITALIAN LANGUAGE:

Padre nostro, che sei nei cieli,
sia santificato il tuo nome.
Venga il tuo regno.
Sia fatta la tua volontà, come in cielo così in terra.

Dacci oggi il nostro pane quotidiano
E rimetti a noi i nostri debiti,
come noi li rimettiamo ai nostri debitori.
E non ci indurre in tentazione,
ma liberaci dal male.

ROMANIAN LANGUAGE:

Tatăl nostru care eşti în ceruri,
sfinţească-se numele tău.
Vie împărăţia ta.
Facă-se voia ta, precum în cer, aşa şi pe pământ.

Pâinea noastră cea de toate zilele, dă-ne-o nouă astăzi.
şi ne iartă nouă păcatele noastre,
precum şi noi le iertăm greşiţilor noştri.
Şi nu ne duce pe noi în ispită,
ci ne mântuieşte de cel rău.

ISTRO-ROMAN LANGUAGE (notice how it has slavic influence much more than Romanian):

Ciace nostru car le şti en cer,
neca se sveta nomelu teu.
Neca venire craliestvo to.
Neca fie volia ta, cum en cer, aşa şi pre pemânt.

Pera nostre saca zi de nam astez.
Odproste nam dutzan,
ca şi noi odprostim a lu nostri dutznici.
Neca nu na tu vezi en napastovanie,
neca na zbăveşte de zvaca slabe.

I add northern Sardinian (Logudoresu), I can't add southern Sardinian (Campidanesu) since I'm unable to speak it


Version 1 (without courtesy form, using 2nd singular person)

Babbu nostru, qui ses in sos chelos,
santificadu síet su nómene tou.
Bénzat su regnu tou.
Fatta síet sa voluntade tua, comente in su chelu e gai in terra.
Da-nos hoe su pane nostru de ogni die
Remitte-nos sos dépidos nostros,
comente nóis los remittímus a sos depidores nostros.
E no nos fettas a rúere in tentazione,
ma libera-nos dae su male

Version 2 (with courtesy form, 2nd plural person; usually Sardinian uses the courtesy form when speaking about God)

Babbu nostru, qui sézis in sos chelos,
santificadu síet su nómene 'ostru.
Bénzat su regnu 'ostru.
Fatta síet sa voluntade 'ostra, comente in su chelu e gai in terra.
Dade-nos hoe su pane nostru de ogni die
Remittide-nos sos dépidos nostros,
comente nóis los remittímus a sos depidores nostros.
E no nos fettédas a rúere in tentazione,
ma liberade-nos dae su male

[Robocop]

I add northern Sardinian (Logudoresu), I can't add southern Sardinian (Campidanesu) since I'm unable to speak it
[B]

Ok great, I will add them all togethar now, along with French & Portugese Prayer so that ppl can see them all togethar

[Robocop]

HERE THEY ARE PPL, Lord's Prayer on all Romance languages

DALMATIAN LANGUAGE:

Tuota nuester, che te sante intel sil,
sait santificuot el naun to.
Vigna el raigno to.
Sait fuot la voluntuot toa, coisa in sil, coisa in tiara.

Duote costa dai el pun nuester cotidiun.
E remetiaj le nuestre debete,
coisa nojiltri remetiaime a i nuestri debetuar.
E naun ne menur in tentatiaun,
miu deleberiajne dal mal.

ITALIAN LANGUAGE:

Padre nostro, che sei nei cieli,
sia santificato il tuo nome.
Venga il tuo regno.
Sia fatta la tua volontà, come in cielo così in terra.

Dacci oggi il nostro pane quotidiano
E rimetti a noi i nostri debiti,
come noi li rimettiamo ai nostri debitori.
E non ci indurre in tentazione,
ma liberaci dal male.

ROMANIAN LANGUAGE:

Tatăl nostru care eşti în ceruri,
sfinţească-se numele tău.
Vie împărăţia ta.
Facă-se voia ta, precum în cer, aşa şi pe pământ.

Pâinea noastră cea de toate zilele, dă-ne-o nouă astăzi.
şi ne iartă nouă păcatele noastre,
precum şi noi le iertăm greşiţilor noştri.
Şi nu ne duce pe noi în ispită,
ci ne mântuieşte de cel rău.

ISTRO-ROMAN LANGUAGE (notice how it has slavic influence much more than Romanian):

Ciace nostru car le şti en cer,
neca se sveta nomelu teu.
Neca venire craliestvo to.
Neca fie volia ta, cum en cer, aşa şi pre pemânt.

Pera nostre saca zi de nam astez.
Odproste nam dutzan,
ca şi noi odprostim a lu nostri dutznici.
Neca nu na tu vezi en napastovanie,
neca na zbăveşte de zvaca slabe.

FRENCH LANGUAGE:

Notre Père qui es aux cieux,
que ton nom soit sanctifié,
que ton règne vienne,
que ta volonté soit faite sur la terre comme au ciel.

Donne-nous aujourd’hui notre pain de ce jour.
Pardonne-nous nos offenses,
comme nous pardonnons aussi à ceux qui nous ont offensés.
Et ne nous soumets pas à la tentation,
mais délivre-nous du Mal.

PORTUGUESE LANGUAGE:

Pai Nosso que estais nos céus,
santificado seja o vosso Nome,
venha a nós o vosso Reino,
seja feita a vossa vontade assim na terra como no céu.

O pão nosso de cada dia nos dai hoje,
perdoai-nos as nossas ofensas
assim como nós perdoamos a quem nos tem ofendido,
e não nos deixeis cair em tentação,
mas livrai-nos do Mal.

NORTHERN SARDINIAN LANGUAGE:

Version 1 (without courtesy form, using 2nd singular person)

Babbu nostru, qui ses in sos chelos,
santificadu síet su nómene tou.
Bénzat su regnu tou.
Fatta síet sa voluntade tua, comente in su chelu e gai in terra.

Da-nos hoe su pane nostru de ogni die
Remitte-nos sos dépidos nostros,
comente nóis los remittímus a sos depidores nostros.
E no nos fettas a rúere in tentazione,
ma libera-nos dae su male

Version 2 (with courtesy form, 2nd plural person; usually Sardinian uses the courtesy form when speaking about God)

Babbu nostru, qui sézis in sos chelos,
santificadu síet su nómene 'ostru.
Bénzat su regnu 'ostru.
Fatta síet sa voluntade 'ostra, comente in su chelu e gai in terra.

Dade-nos hoe su pane nostru de ogni die
Remittide-nos sos dépidos nostros,
comente nóis los remittímus a sos depidores nostros.
E no nos fettédas a rúere in tentazione,
ma liberade-nos dae su male

SPANISH LANGUAGE:

Padre nuestro,
que estás en el cielo.
Santificado sea tu nombre.
Venga tu reino.
Hágase tu voluntad en la tierra como en el cielo.

Danos hoy nuestro pan de cada día.
Perdona nuestras ofensas,
como también nosotros perdonamos a los que nos ofenden.
No nos dejes caer en tentación y líbranos del mal.

[Dandelion]

-French is an atypical Western-Romance language because of its strong Celtic and Frankish influence. This language doesn't sound Romance at all when you hear it spoken for the first time.
Strange nasalized vowel sounds. Many closed vowels, the presence of mid front rounded vowels /ø/, /œ/ et /ə/ and a guttural "r" are typical of Germanic languages. Unlike other Romance languages, emphatic stress is less pronounced, that's why it doesn't sound as melodious as Italian, Spanish etc...

I'm no expert on the French language and its phonology, but the guttural 'r', isn't that a more recent introduction? Didn't historically many French (or langue d'oïl) speakers speak with a rolling 'r'? Farmer's language is sometimes stereotyped with a rolling 'r' as well, like here (schlager music, almost 'ashamed' for linking this, also probably how French people stereotype Belgians )
If you ask me, the French guttural 'r' won from every other 'r' for French and the rolling 'r' fell into disuse to the point only very rural people still used it mid 20th century. Used to be different centuries ago, in the Middle French where the rolling 'r' was likely still the norm.



As for the guttural 'r' being a Germanic thing. Is it really? In Southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland the rolling 'r' is more common. In Dutch it really depends on individuality and how one pronounces it is optional. Some Flemish people, especially women, even speak with the same guttural 'r' as French people though (sometimes even the 'old-fashioned' uvular trill that only a minority of French people still use, like Edith Piaff's), others roll it. Many Dutch people pronounce it rolling in front of a word and guttural toward the end of a word. Others have an ugly almost American-like 'r'. More Germanic than Latin for sure, however.

[Melki]

I add northern Sardinian (Logudoresu), I can't add southern Sardinian (Campidanesu) since I'm unable to speak it


Version 1 (without courtesy form, using 2nd singular person)

Babbu nostru, qui ses in sos chelos,
santificadu síet su nómene tou.
Bénzat su regnu tou.
Fatta síet sa voluntade tua, comente in su chelu e gai in terra.
Da-nos hoe su pane nostru de ogni die
Remitte-nos sos dépidos nostros,
comente nóis los remittímus a sos depidores nostros.
E no nos fettas a rúere in tentazione,
ma libera-nos dae su male

Version 2 (with courtesy form, 2nd plural person; usually Sardinian uses the courtesy form when speaking about God)

Babbu nostru, qui sézis in sos chelos,
santificadu síet su nómene 'ostru.
Bénzat su regnu 'ostru.
Fatta síet sa voluntade 'ostra, comente in su chelu e gai in terra.
Dade-nos hoe su pane nostru de ogni die
Remittide-nos sos dépidos nostros,
comente nóis los remittímus a sos depidores nostros.
E no nos fettédas a rúere in tentazione,
ma liberade-nos dae su male

Thanks for sharing this. Very interesting. I didn't know Sardinian occupied an intermediate position between western and eastern-Romance
Yes, I still think Romanian and French are more odd-looking.

I'm no expert on the French language and its phonology, but the guttural 'r', isn't that a more recent introduction? Didn't historically many French (or langue d'oïl) speakers speak with a rolling 'r'? Farmer's language is sometimes stereotyped with a rolling 'r' as well, like here (schlager music, almost 'ashamed' for linking this, also probably how French people stereotype Belgians )
If you ask me, the French guttural 'r' won from every other 'r' for French and the rolling 'r' fell into disuse to the point only very rural people still used it mid 20th century. Used to be different centuries ago, in the Middle French where the rolling 'r' was likely still the norm.



As for the guttural 'r' being a Germanic thing. Is it really? In Southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland the rolling 'r' is more common. In Dutch it really depends on individuality and how one pronounces it is optional. Some Flemish people, especially women, even speak with the same guttural 'r' as French people though (sometimes even the 'old-fashioned' uvular trill that only a minority of French people still use, like Edith Piaff's), others roll it. Many Dutch people pronounce it rolling in front of a word and guttural toward the end of a word. Others have an ugly almost American-like 'r'. More Germanic than Latin for sure, however.

I don't know where the guttural "r" comes from. It's a common feature shared with Breton and the Frankish German dialects spoken in Northeastern France.
I know some peasants used to roll the "r" in some regions. When we want to imitate a peasant for fun, we usually roll the "r" in an exaggerated way.
French as it is spoken in Paris became standard French. Everywhere in France, due to the expansion of media in the second half of the 20th Century, young people from all parts of France started to lose their accent, even in southern Occitania and Germanic Alsatia, specifically in educated circles.

Only older Belgians speak French with a thick accent (that Frenchmen like to imitate when they tell jokes about them) But younger Walloons speak like in France, with no noticeable difference that could betray them, except for "septante", "nonante"...and the special way they pronounce "huit", "nuit", "puis", pronunced "houit", "nouit", "pouis".

In many French-speaking cantons of Switzerland, the accent remains strong. I think it's because France has more contacts and exchanges with Belgium ("le plat pays": "the flat land") than with Switzerland (not part of the EU, mountains separating us).

Canada (Quebec, New-Brunswick) is more isolated, and too far away from France. As a result, they will never loose their thick accent (a legacy of the 17th Century)

[Cristiano viejo]

I meant "azafata"...I typed the wrong letter...it doesn't really change anything to the fact it's still Arabic...

Oh, azafata.
I never denied there are some words which have Arabic origin.

and in French lemon is "citron", the tree is called "citronnier". "Limon" means something else, and it's not a fruit. We still have borrowed many Arabic words, but much less than you.

Well, I extracted this from the French wiki page

Noms communs

citronnier, limonier. En allemand : Zitronenbaum, en anglais : lemon (qui est également le nom du fruit), ou lemon tree, en espagnol : limonero, en italien : limone (nom de l'arbre ou du fruit).

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citronnier

Even its Latin name is Citrus ×limon... but you only focus in the Spanish version...

And yss, France has many Arabs because unlike you, French were able to conquer North Africa...

(Unfortunately) we still own Canary Islands, Ceuta, Melilla and several islands and islets.

And I don't really understand, you accept Persian and Hindu words in your vocabulary, but not Arabic ? Originally, the Arabs were nomads adapted to the life in the desert, who borrowed most of their culture (architecture, arts, poetry, gastronomy) from the Persians (and to a lesser extent the Berbers, the Turks, the Greeks, the Indians...) The Almohad Caliphate which ruled over Spain was mostly Berber, not Arab.

It is not a question about if I accept this or that but the stubborn reality

The Mosque-Cathedral of Córdoba was maybe built by the Visigoths, but the Moors (Arabs + Berbers) turned it into a mosque, and made an architectural masterpiece of it.

Dont insist calling it Mosque, it is not a Mosque.
Man, take a book or at minimum read the fuckin wikipedia... "maybe" NOT: Visigoths built a Cathedral and this is as clear as the sun of the morning. Yes, Moors turned into a Mosque... and then when Spaniards reconquered Córdoba in 1236, turned it again in a Cathedral... until today.

And you didn't tell me: what about the Alhambra ?

What about the Great Mosque of Paris? do you visit it?

[Melki]

Well, I extracted this from the French wiki page
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citronnier

Even its Latin name is Citrus ×limon... but you only focus in the Spanish version...

I've never heard of "limonier" before. But why not ? Usually we say "citronnier". Anyway French drink "limonade" and "citronade" (maybe a slight difference between the two drinks, I don't know).

"Limon" exists but doesn't mean "lemon". No Frenchman will understand you if you want to buy "limons". I tell you why: My grandmother was Spanish (Yes, France is a very mixed country, and it makes me proud). My grandparents, my mother and uncles, always spent the summer vacations near Bilbao to visit my family who lived there.
Sometime in the 50's-60's, after coming back to France after a long stay in Spain, my grandma sent my mom to the grocery stone in order to buy some lemons. And my mother, who was fluent in both French and Spanish, momentarily forgot her French and asked some "limons". The grocer couldn't understand her and was confused. "What is a limon?" My mother thought he was stupid or that he was making fun of her. She started to explain "it's a yellow fruit which has a sour taste." Suddenly, the grocer understood: "Aah, des CITRONS !". When she realized her mistake, my mother felt very ashamed.

(Unfortunately) we still own Canary Islands, Ceuta, Melilla and several islands and islets.

In other words, you only got leftovers and not the main dish. And the Brits still own Gibraltar.

Dont insist calling it Mosque, it is not a Mosque.
Man, take a book or at minimum read the fuckin wikipedia... "maybe" NOT: Visigoths built a Cathedral and this is as clear as the sun of the morning. Yes, Moors turned into a Mosque... and then when Spaniards reconquered Córdoba in 1236, turned it again in a Cathedral... until today.

It's not me, it's Wikipedia (your best friend Wikipedia ) who insists on calling it a Mosque-Cathedral

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque...f_C%C3%B3rdoba
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezqui...e_C%C3%B3rdoba

What about the Great Mosque of Paris? do you visit it?

I've never visited it. I wouldn't mind doing it if I had the opportunity (although it's not as beautiful as the Mosque-Cathedral of Córdoba ) . I'm happy to live in a melting-pot society, rather than in a fantasized "racially pure" country where everyone ends up marrying her cousin who will give birth to degenerate consanguineus kids like these guys...

E32Rthb.jpg

Adios, Franquista !

[Cristiano viejo]

Adios, Franquista !