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Thread: The Polish or Slavic R1a M458 haplogroup in Greece and FYROM

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    Default The Polish or Slavic R1a M458 haplogroup in Greece and FYROM

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194a.html

    Abstract


    Human Y-chromosome haplogroup structure is largely circumscribed by continental boundaries. One notable exception to this general pattern is the young haplogroup R1a that exhibits post-Glacial coalescent times and relates the paternal ancestry of more than 10% of men in a wide geographic area extending from South Asia to Central East Europe and South Siberia. Its origin and dispersal patterns are poorly understood as no marker has yet been described that would distinguish European R1a chromosomes from Asian. Here we present frequency and haplotype diversity estimates for more than 2000 R1a chromosomes assessed for several newly discovered SNP markers that introduce the onset of informative R1a subdivisions by geography. Marker M434 has a low frequency and a late origin in West Asia bearing witness to recent gene flow over the Arabian Sea. Conversely, marker M458 has a significant frequency in Europe, exceeding 30% in its core area in Eastern Europe and comprising up to 70% of all M17 chromosomes present there. The diversity and frequency profiles of M458 suggest its origin during the early Holocene and a subsequent expansion likely related to a number of prehistoric cultural developments in the region. Its primary frequency and diversity distribution correlates well with some of the major Central and East European river basins where settled farming was established before its spread further eastward. Importantly, the virtual absence of M458 chromosomes outside Europe speaks against substantial patrilineal gene flow from East Europe to Asia, including to India, at least since the mid-Holocene.

    Conclusion 1


    If R-M458 had started expanding 10.7ky ago, then by the time of the early dispersals of Kurgan groups east, it would have been present among them, and we would expect to find it east of the Urals and in the Near East/Central/South Asia. To reconcile this age with the archaeological picture of west-east movements across the steppe seems impossible. However, the situation resolves itself neatly when we realize that J-P58 is only 3-4 thousand years old, and was not in existence at the time of the Kurgan expansion.

    However, the paper also is inconsistent with an origin of R-M17 either in a glacial refugium or with the expansion of the Kurgan culture, as the diversity of R1a1a*(xR1a1a7) is not particularly high in either Russia or the Ukraine and is much higher in India and Pakistan:
    Analysis of associated STR diversity profiles revealed that among the R1a1a*(xM458) chromosomes the highest diversity is observed among populations of the Indus Valley yielding coalescent times above 14 KYA (thousands of years ago), whereas the R1a1a* diversity declines toward Europe where its maximum diversity and coalescent times of 11.2 KYA are observed in Poland, Slovakia and Crete.

    Conclusion 2

    The presence of R1a in Scandinavia does not reflect any sort of Balto-Slavic admixture, as R-M458 is lacking in them. This, coupled with the discovery of R1a chromosomes in ancient remains from Eulau and Lichtenstein in German territory suggests that R1a was present among ancient Germanic speakers. However, there is also structure in R-M458 frequency in Germany itself, with lowest percentages reached in the north and west; this suggests an admixture with Baltic and/or Slavic elements in present-day Germany itself.

    In several Balkan samples the frequency of R-M458 ranges between 0-12% which is at most a third of its maximum frequency, suggesting that the extent of Slavic admixture in the Balkans is upper-bounded by about 1/3. The complete absence of R-M458 in Italy and its sub-1% representation in Anatolia further support the idea that R-M458 in the Balkans is of medieval and later origins.

    Conclusion 3

    The samples from Greece (N=263), Macedonian Greeks (N=57), and Crete (N=361) have R-M458 frequency of 4.2, 6.8, and 2.2%. Assuming a frequency of R-M458 at 36.4% in ancestral Balkan Slavs and as in south Poland, the admixture estimates are 8, 13, 6%. These should probably be interpreted as upper limits (plus statistical margins) because the highest present-day frequency of R-M458 is probably lower than that in early Slavs.
    Conclusion 4

    Interestingly, the Slavs of FYROM have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%!!! barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that they Slavs of FYROM are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some FYROMian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong. The actual truth is that the Slavs of FYROM are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language.
    “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Eph. 6:12

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    Conclusion 4

    Interestingly, the Slavs of FYROM have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%!!! barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that they Slavs of FYROM are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some FYROMian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong. The actual truth is that the Slavs of FYROM are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language.

    Now you really need to sit down and decide but take your time.

    Are we Slavs or pre-Slavic people?

    Hmm

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    Quote Originally Posted by catgeorge View Post
    R-M458 had started expanding 10.7ky ago

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Conclusion 4

    Interestingly, the Slavs of FYROM have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%!!! barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that they Slavs of FYROM are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some FYROMian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong. The actual truth is that the Slavs of FYROM are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language.

    Now you really need to sit down and decide but take your time.

    Are we Slavs or pre-Slavic people?

    Hmm
    You are Paeonians who got cucked by Slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis View Post
    You are Paeonians who got cucked by Slavs.
    In 280 BC, the Gallic invaders under Brennus ravaged the land of the Paeonians, who, being further hard pressed by the Dardani, had no alternative but to join the Macedonians. Despite their combined efforts, however, the Paeonians and Macedonians were defeated. Paeonia consolidated again but, in 217 BC, the Macedonian king Philip V of Macedon (220-179 BC), the son of Demetrius II, succeeded in uniting and incorporating into his empire the separate regions of Dassaretia and Paeonia. A mere 70 years later (in 168 BC), Roman legions conquered Macedon in turn, and a new and much larger Roman province bearing this name was formed. Paeonia around the Axios formed the second and third districts respectively of the newly constituted Roman province of Macedonia.[53] Centuries later under Diocletian, Paeonia and Pelagonia formed a province called Macedonia Secunda or Macedonia Salutaris, belonging to the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum.

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    Outdated paper from several years ago. BTW, there is still no any R1a-M458 in ancient DNA.

    On the other hand, R1a-CTS1211 (also known as R1a-M558) can be linked with Balto-Slavs:

    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post4938898

    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post4948572

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterski View Post
    Outdated paper from several years ago. BTW, there is still no any R1a-M458 in ancient DNA.

    On the other hand, R1a-CTS1211 (also known as R1a-M558) can be linked with Balto-Slavs:

    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post4938898

    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post4948572
    I wonder why there is still no aDNA for M458. Supposedly there is alot of R1a diversification around Romania. Maybe some M458 will turn up there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterski View Post
    Outdated paper from several years ago. BTW, there is still no any R1a-M458 in ancient DNA.

    On the other hand, R1a-CTS1211 (also known as R1a-M558) can be linked with Balto-Slavs:

    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post4938898

    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post4948572
    Why does ancient dna matter, polack. Which meta-ethnicity is mostly M458 nowadays? Slavs.

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    Slavic admixture in Greece is 4.4% some 8 years ago
    “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Eph. 6:12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick View Post
    Why does ancient dna matter, polack. Which meta-ethnicity is mostly M458 nowadays? Slavs.
    But most of South Slavic R1a is CTS1211, not M458. M458 is only so common among West Slavs.

    What I mean is that you cannot calculate Slavic admixture in Greeks based just on M458.

    You need to add CTS1211 + M458 + I2a-Din if you want to know what % of Greek Y-DNA is Slavic.

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