Albanians, indigenous in kosovo?

[Ushtari]

Serbs and Greeks claim Albanians have their origin in Azerbaijan, only because there was an ancient land called Albania there. What Serbs/Greeks dont know is that the Word Albania is a proto-european word wich means "White Alps" in Latin. We dont call ourself "Albanians" but Shqiptar, earlier we called ourself "Arbëreshë"

Also

"Alba, a Gaelic name for Scotland, may be related to the Greek name of Britain Albion, Latinized as Albania during the High Medieval period, and later passed into Middle English as Albany."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania_(name)

Serbs claim Albanians are intruders to Kosovo. Well lets see what facts have to say about this.


"Not long after these barbarian invaders swept through the Balkans, the Slavs appeared. Between the 6th and 8th centuries they settled in Illyrian territories and proceeded to assimilate Illyrian tribes in much of what is now Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Serbia. The tribes of southern Illyria, however--including modern Albania--averted assimilation and preserved their native tongue."

"In the course of several centuries, under the impact of Roman, Byzantine, and Slavic cultures, the tribes of southern Illyria underwent a transformation, and a transition occurred from the old Illyrian population to a new Albanian one."

"As a consequence, from the 8th to the 11th century, the name Illyria gradually gave way to the name, first mentioned in the 2nd century AD by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria, of the Albanoi tribe, which inhabited what is now central Albania. From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbri and, finally, Albania. The genesis of Albanian nationality apparently occurred at this time as the Albanian people became aware that they shared a common territory, name, language, and cultural heritage."

Nationbuilding in the Balkans

"What it suggests is that the Kosovo region, together with at least part of
northern Albania, was the crucial focus of two distinct but interlinked ethnic histories: the
survival of the Albanians, and the emergence of the Romanians and Vlachs."

Noel Malcolm - Origins: Serbs, Albanians and Vlachs
Kosovo, Origins: Serbs, Albanians and Vlachs - Noel Malcolm

[Guapo]

Noel Malcom. For a scholar who is neither versed in Slav studies nor a balkanologist, and who, judging by his scholarly credentials, until recently never had anything whatsoever to do with the history of the Balkans, it strikes one as unconvincing, even in sheer physical terms, that he could have managed to digest and synthesize, within 2-3 years, such a huge quantity of archives and archival holdings in so many languages, consulted such a massive literature in eleven European languages. A quite heterogeneous literature at that.

He refers to almost all works by Mary Edith Durham, but he ignores her first serious work, Through the Lands of the Serb, in which she touches on Kosovo-Metohija. Everything leads to the conclusion that by referring to such a mass of sources and literature in general, Noel Malcolm in fact wanted to conceal his real motifs while doing his best to conceal his mission as an advocate of the separatist movement of the Albanian minority in Serbia by an aura of alleged scholarship and thoroughness.

[Osweo]

Serbs and Greeks claim Albanians have their origin in Azerbaijan,

No. Let me correct that for you;

Only the most ignorant Serbs and Greeks claim Albanians have their origin in Azerbaijan.


But where Illyrians survived in the Eighth Century is irrelevant to the position of Serbs in the 1990s.

[Osweo]

Noel Malcom. For a scholar who is neither versed in Slav studies nor a balkanologist, and who, judging by his scholarly credentials, until recently never had anything whatsoever to do with the history of the Balkans, it strikes one as unconvincing, even in sheer physical terms, that he could have managed to digest and synthesize, within 2-3 years, such a huge quantity of archives and archival holdings in so many languages, consulted such a massive literature in eleven European languages. A quite heterogeneous literature at that.

He refers to almost all works by Mary Edith Durham, but he ignores her first serious work, Through the Lands of the Serb, in which she touches on Kosovo-Metohija. Everything leads to the conclusion that by referring to such a mass of sources and literature in general, Noel Malcolm in fact wanted to conceal his real motifs while doing his best to conceal his mission as an advocate of the separatist movement of the Albanian minority in Serbia by an aura of alleged scholarship and thoroughness.

Aye, I actually bought his book 'Kosovo' back in those days. The book was obviously rushed out to desperately influence the reading public here in favour of the shameful intervention going on.

[Bari]

Noel Malcom. For a scholar who is neither versed in Slav studies nor a balkanologist, and who, judging by his scholarly credentials, until recently never had anything whatsoever to do with the history of the Balkans, it strikes one as unconvincing, even in sheer physical terms, that he could have managed to digest and synthesize, within 2-3 years, such a huge quantity of archives and archival holdings in so many languages, consulted such a massive literature in eleven European languages. A quite heterogeneous literature at that.

He refers to almost all works by Mary Edith Durham, but he ignores her first serious work, Through the Lands of the Serb, in which she touches on Kosovo-Metohija. Everything leads to the conclusion that by referring to such a mass of sources and literature in general, Noel Malcolm in fact wanted to conceal his real motifs while doing his best to conceal his mission as an advocate of the separatist movement of the Albanian minority in Serbia by an aura of alleged scholarship and thoroughness.

- During Edith Durhams first work, "Through the lands of the Serbs" she was biased (like other authors of the time) by being pro-Serb in personal stance. Something she even states in her later works("High Albania"). Except for a few old dubious statistics on settlements, do you have any better to come up with? Noel Malcolm is not a author i nessecarily put much trust in myself, as i realize he had/has an agenda himself, but not everything he had written down can be dismissed by that.

I would especially like to see an elaboration on Western Kosovo(Rugova,..) as to proving that the settlers are new arrivals. Many of theese whom belong to same tribe as me, are far from being new settlers in theese areas.

[YOUTUBE]AzhRoopBf34[/YOUTUBE]

Serbia has no doubt much history in this region as well dating well back in time, but to dismiss Albanian presence as nothing but a mere minority with no historical ties to the land is biased. Who has right to what, also, is according to where in Kosovo. Because some parts have more historical ties with Albania, others with Serbia. I am not interested in what as a whole belong to who, but more want to clarify that either part cannot fully claim right to it all, as both have much history there.

In one of the biggest monasteries Decani you can find a document saying " Radomir son of Gjin" its obvious that the father has an Albanian name, and the son changed it because of the pressure done by the Serbs and assimilation politics. As well theres examples of former Albanian Catholic churches transformed into Serbian Orthodox monasteries. I am not dismissing neither side entirely, as there are withouth doubt much proof as well of Serbian presence as Albanian in the region. Which is why i find it hard to say it belong to either completely.

Do you agree that todays political borders cannot fully support territorial claims, as it presents no clear indicator of where and which people lived exactly through history?

My personal feelings and conclusion are that neither group can be entirery dismissed as to right on living/claim territory.

[Bari]

No. Let me correct that for you;

Only the most ignorant Serbs and Greeks claim Albanians have their origin in Azerbaijan.


But where Illyrians survived in the Eighth Century is irrelevant to the position of Serbs in the 1990s.

- Attempts to mongrelize one another are done by both sides, and i think it was unnessecary by Reach to include it in this thread. Typical Balkanian thing to dismiss the other as aliens. Though highly irrelevant for this debate.

But then again, what would you say is relevant for todays position in a debate, and is not ignorant to completely dismiss either side based on your personal feelings on the matter? I would like to hear you elaborate more on your view of the matter.

[Turkophagos]

Albanian propaganda confuses me. They have to decide if they are Illyrians, Pelasgians or Epirotans...

[Osweo]

- Attempts to mongrelize one another are done by both sides, and i think it was unnessecary by Reach to include it in this thread. Typical Balkanian thing to dismiss the other as aliens. Though highly irrelevant for this debate.

Absolutely, and very tiresome.

But then again, what would you say is relevant for todays position in a debate, and is not ignorant to completely dismiss either side based on your personal feelings on the matter? I would like to hear you elaborate more on your view of the matter.

Hmm............

I fear it's too late for this with Kosovo. Subtlety is needed, but I don't see how this can happen with a triumphalist Muslim ascendancy in the province.

But that Radomir son of Gjin is interesting.

We have similar examples in southern Scotland - an area that went from Welsh to English to Gaelic rule, and back to English speech but Scottish identity in the present time;

A chief of the Macleans married Rioghnach, daughter of Gamel, lord of Carrick about 1300. The lady's name is Gaelic, though her father's name is English. ....
The wife of Radulph [English name], son of Dunegal [Welsh name] of Stranit (Nithsdale), was Bethoc,... a well known woman's name in Gaelic

The thing is though, Gjin's grandson was probably called Radovan, and his son Radoslav, and his Boguslav, Slavomir, etc. etc. until our day. That's what is lost sight of here. Gjin's descendants have been Serbs to all intents and purposes for centuries. When Serbs were dominant, they probably reproduced better, and Gjin's descendants married more and more into their Slavonic neighbours until the Albanian in them was diluted out of recognition, or at least so dispersed that it fell from notice. I gather there was a more mixed scattered distribution of people in Kosovo until recent times though (but still in some parts), so Gjin's brother might not have called his kid with a Slavonic name, I suppose. I am unclear of the relative preponderances of the different identities at different times, though a general trend seems clear. I've looked at plenty of older ethnographic maps, from French, German, English, Serbian and Bulgarian researchers, and the main impression I get is that Albanians have ousted Serbs in many parts in very recent times. I might care less if this wasn't accompanied by minarets shooting up everywhere and churches getting desecrated.

What happened to all the Vlachs that were on the old maps, though? Have they all become one or the other in the Serb/ALbanian dichotomy? Is it possible that Gjin might well have been Ioannus, a Latin speaker himself, and the clerk just spelt his name in a way more familiar to him for whatever reason?

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...o#15th_century

[Guapo]

More than 90% of geographical names in today's Kosovo ("kos" which means a blackbird) are of the Serb origin which proves the centuries long existance of the Serb people and its culture in this area. Albanians use the word Kosova which is derived from the Serbian word. Names of other cities also have their Albanian equivalent of Serb toponyms(Malisevo - Malisheva, Pec - Peja, Prizren - Prizreni, Pristina - Prishtine etc)

Metohia designates the western part of the today's province of Kosovo. It derives its name from the Greek word (metohion, pl. metohia, meaning - monastery estates. In the Middle Ages all the most important Serb Orthodox Monasteries in the region had their estates in Metohia, especially vineyards near Orahovac.